Gistou (Over!)

[copper223]

/confirm

[copper223]

Someone else said so already expe, this nonsense is a molla special and he does it as town and as scum. The read about his tone also seems weak to me, scum can be insouciant just as much as town but it is the kind of read I'd expect town expe to make.

[copper223]

VOTE: Heartless

[copper223]

One bad reason after another for town-reading or avoiding heartless.

They tripped 3 alarm bells in their opening posts, if they are scum it should become clear pretty soon if you guys stop propping them up.

[copper223]

if they are scum it should become clear pretty soon if you guys stop propping them up.

I would yell at you for misreading me, but this

is

true.

You both usually have pretty obvious reactions when scum and under preassure and that's what I was taking advantage of, you also know about it but from what I have seen you both can't really control it; this is how you would more likely react as town, which is a good thing for this game.

I am also not a fan of the cephmeister, what pinged you in particular?

[copper223]

as a side note i'm not scumreading ceph (cue the "hydra dissonance" whining, yeah bite my ass we'll work it out)

mostly b/c i know ceph well enough to know that being pointlessly argumentative isnt alignment indicative for him

This is true but trying to control the game-flow is and in my admittedly limited catch-up he gave me that impression when scoffing at reads, he is being destructive possibly cause that's not where he wants the game to go whereas when he is argumentative as town he wants to guide you to what he thinks is right.

[copper223]

@Dave
The expedience wagon is promising, Titus is more likely than not town with bad reads; nothing else I am interested in sharing.

P-edit: I think the quality of the posts is more important than the quantity.

[copper223]

The expedience wagon is promising

it is?

i'm kinda' missing whatever everyone else is seeing on that and tth didnt seem to catch anything there either

what are YOU seeing in tit?

Expe is unusually flaily, whereas as town his posts are compact and minimalistic, he is spending far too much time justifying himself and appealing to other players instead of scum hunting, I don't understsnd his Luna read and the way he is pushing it seems fake.

[copper223]

High and recent exposure of town meta, only second hand of scum meta; good point about multiball but this is also an OMGUS situation which may explain why it's coming across as if he doesn't believe what he is saying.

[copper223]

I am reading Anti but once again the way he shoots the arguments down is relevant, we shall see; I have more than one way to read ceph.

@A50
Why did you feel the need to write that list when assuming town you are clearly still need to think about your reads?

[copper223]

VOTE: Kuroi

[copper223]

I am phone posting abroad and would appreciate it if we could try to post 2/3 times a day unless you feel you are really getting sonething done.

[copper223]

Expe said something that makes me think he is toen btw, so a look at his wagon is in order.

[copper223]

@Titus
If you are already doing your best that post us not for you, the fact remains that the thread is too fast growing for multiple players to keep up with so some care in posting would likely improve reads and therefore odds of winning.

[copper223]

@anti, that's my sole concern on this wagon. Why copper?

in retrospect, his entrance where he came after us and then how he backed off kinda gives me a smokescreen feel now

like... if ur gonna go balls deep and give a detail like "3 alarm bells" then why would you call the react test so soon? not to mention he sort of telegraphed it in his "dont prop them up" post

This is very concerning, you received a bunch of unjustified town or leave alone reads so I had to tell them to stoo the prop. up, I explained why that shouldn't be a big deal even if it showed what I was up to cause you both can't control your dislike for scum that much, I should know, I badgered TTH in shaman for the whole game to get her out of her scum lurk mode with little success and I like to think I am a good motivator.

Now where is TTH and why are you putting out feelers for a copper wagon based on this stuff you likely know doesn't hold water are the questions in my mind, could be I called the test too early for real after all, you did tell me Aneninen was scum the last time after all.

[copper223]

@anti, that's my sole concern on this wagon. Why copper?

in retrospect, his entrance where he came after us and then how he backed off kinda gives me a smokescreen feel now

like... if ur gonna go balls deep and give a detail like "3 alarm bells" then why would you call the react test so soon? not to mention he sort of telegraphed it in his "dont prop them up" post

idk

I'll have to look at copper in more detail. My biggest concern is that I don't remember anything that Copper has done. That gives him a we didn't playtest this feel rather than his town games.

If you went there, I wouldn't be angry as I am not townreading him, but we also have a very shiny wagon here.

I feel conflicted. I want to lead a wagon full of obvtown on obvscum. Yet, I'm ok with being just a member.

Please come back if it goes nowhere?

This is a pretty embarassing read if true.

[copper223]

This is very concerning, you received a bunch of unjustified town or leave alone reads so I had to tell them to stoo the prop. up, I explained why that shouldn't be a big deal even if it showed what I was up to cause you both can't control your dislike for scum that much, I should know, I badgered TTH in shaman for the whole game to get her out of her scum lurk mode with little success and I like to think I am a good motivator.

Now where is TTH and why are you putting out feelers for a copper wagon based on this stuff you likely know doesn't hold water are the questions in my mind, could be I called the test too early for real after all, you did tell me Aneninen was scum the last time after all.

havent kept track but tth has been making maybe like half the posts...? so yeah she's here...

if ur referring to something specific in jk9++ chances are i do not remember what it

another thing: what about the expedience wagon interested you?

I told you once already, his posting style and frequency are different from his usual town game and I have a town-read on Luna. I changed my mind when he said that if she had claimed she had slipped in her claimed PT he was changing his mind, I noted the same "ocam logical" approach in his town games and wrote it down for future reference if I need a town read from him as scum.

Maybe 1/4 of the posts is what it looks like to me.

[copper223]

Once I changed my mind about his alignment I wanted to have a closer look at those voting for him, I've been skimming posts from players that are new or mostly unreadable to me to try and play despite the technical limitations and given the eagerness of some of the players to post. It still is a work in progress.

[copper223]

Once I changed my mind about his alignment I wanted to have a closer look at those voting for him, I've been skimming posts from players that are new or mostly unreadable to me to try and play despite the technical limitations and given the eagerness of some of the players to post. It still is a work in progress.

but... how does that fit in w/ multiball?
as in how do you think that's particularly helpful information here?

The things the voters are looking at are often different depending on their alignment and it'easier to see when you ideally know or in this case suspect they are wrong.

[copper223]

Wagon composition without flips means squat.

Read that ISO again please Firebringer and look at the reasons given for his votes, his unnecessary aggression on one side and his excuse piling on the other, only the part where Kuroi replies to Anti about liking scum over town I find mildly genuine and if that's the case he just said he is not someone we want to entrust our late game to anyway.

[copper223]

wagon composition is hardly irrelevant copper. This isn't a VCA

Whatever works for you, I don't want to argue about scum hunting theory as it just clogs the thread and doesn't lead to players magically changing their minds in 99% of the cases anyway, since I think you are more likely town than not: please judge his content as well in isolation as well as your macro picture of the game.

I'll take a look at WT when I can.

[copper223]

@FA
Don't worry about your english, it's great for someone that is self thought and you should only be praised for it instead of having to apologize.

I think all the premises are there so that we can go back to having a nice game.

Toog"s strategy has merit but it is also something he would say as scum, I wouldn't mind a few more days to read up on a pc.

[copper223]

Lying doggo and hoping the wagon will go away is a defense cerb.

[copper223]

Just based on the reasons given fir his votes I have a hard time seeing kuroi as town, esoecially paired eith his indignant tone when he writes them, and that after hecsaid he was lost since there are so many players... it feels off to me. Scum can be inept or they aren't really into the game or ..., in fact that's almost the only kind of scum you can lynch d1.

[copper223]

@anti, that's my sole concern on this wagon. Why copper?

in retrospect, his entrance where he came after us and then how he backed off kinda gives me a smokescreen feel now

like... if ur gonna go balls deep and give a detail like "3 alarm bells" then why would you call the react test so soon? not to mention he sort of telegraphed it in his "dont prop them up" post

This is very concerning, you received a bunch of unjustified town or leave alone reads so I had to tell them to stoo the prop. up, I explained why that shouldn't be a big deal even if it showed what I was up to cause you both can't control your dislike for scum that much, I should know, I badgered TTH in shaman for the whole game to get her out of her scum lurk mode with little success and I like to think I am a good motivator.

Now where is TTH and why are you putting out feelers for a copper wagon based on this stuff you likely know doesn't hold water are the questions in my mind, could be I called the test too early for real after all, you did tell me Aneninen was scum the last time after all.

VOTE: copper223

I hate this response.

I hate that it was

right

as he was brought up. I hate the shot he took at my activity when I've been pretty steadily active here. I hate the random call back to a scum game that happened years ago without explanation for why it's relevant here.

This is all nonsense and shaman was a month ago at most, the tone is also way off like when you accused cephrir compared to town TTH, basically you are scum claiming here... can't we get a game where we are of the same alignment...

VOTE: Heartless

[copper223]

That's not how I play and we shall see if I can get you out of the game as fast as possible (I am sure you'd aporeciate), I have a good shot.

Your argument is not only bad, it doesn't make sense for you to think along those lines as you started with a vote on me and what is that going to accomplish?

[copper223]

You lurk as scum, that is not a hard point to parse, you also blatantly lied about where that meta came from which is verifiable.

[copper223]

You are also always mildly upset and confrontational when posting cause you have to force yourself to post as scum, this is not town TTH.

[copper223]

Titus you don't know what you are talking about (which seems to be a theme ne?).

[copper223]

Fine let's not waste extra time and once again I have to waste my life cause some of you really should be playing a different game, I am in the same PT with I could strangle you Luna, Heartless is scum, RAM is town and shouldn't be allowed outside of rome, Titus I don't care to defend as she has been so bad in my games she might as well be scum by default. Cephrir also basically scum claimed.

Heartless is dead regardless.

[copper223]

Ceph I do not believe you can genuinely scumread me here so either you yourself are in the middle of an opium plantation or you are scum.

[copper223]

@ceph
Yeah too bad I was a significant help in one (where you played better) by helping town nail scum D1 and I outright won the other by lynching gatokaka as a tree stump at lylo, you forho to use your ability...

I win as scum by reaching lylo and beating town, this claim just put a clock on my head and I would never consider it.

[copper223]

If Heartless flips as expected you are next.

[copper223]

I am sorry you suck, I do pay a lot of attention and that's why my ceph read is so much bettet than your copoer read, why talk if you don't know what you are saying is the reply.

Not really, I have never been lynched as town.

I am sure you can find the answer to that alone.

[copper223]

The lack of involvment is caused by having to phone post ehile abroad after most of my belongings were stolen, little to do with thread activity.

[copper223]

Because nobody would believe my claim and thus my alignment if I reached lylo now... also I think I have never reached d3(?) as town anyway other than when I was unkillable.

[copper223]

If you're going to keep calling me scum for ever suspecting you while I'm trying to interact and work on my read then that just makes me feel like you want me to stop interacting with you because you're scum.

In case you don't remember since you claim lack of attention, read back the end of D1 of TTH's first large as mod.

I am not calling you scum all the time, instead I am taking said time to phone post the obvious back to you.

[copper223]

Because nobody would believe my claim and thus my alignment if I reached lylo now... also I think I have never reached d3(?) as town anyway other than when I was unkillable.

what are you talking about? i legitimately dont understand what you're saying here. why would no one believe you're a neighbor in lylo

The only time I ever consider early claiming is as town when I think I can trade with scum, never done it as scum on any day let alone at the start of the game, done it as town twice one of which you recently played in. Tomorrow I will flip and hopefully this will help you in another game, of course maybe not.

[copper223]

i mean...
the only reason i could think hes town is the toxicity leaking out in his conversation with ceph is kinda sorta reminiscent of jk9++?

otherwise idk

A game Luna and Cephrir should do well to read.

[copper223]

@Luna
How your read that Anti can only prod dodge and flake out as scum is rubbish.

[copper223]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=59782

[copper223]

That's cause he was also heartless with TTH there.

[copper223]

CultivationTheory

TellTaleHeart
Unless the mod missed something, or im missing something, eh i guess i'll just look through the players on the activity list.

That's the wrong jk9 then, my bad, 1 sec.

[copper223]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=60351

[copper223]

I will try explaining once again:

1. TTH has a history as a hardcore lurker as scum, Antihero also lurks but in the heartless hydra and in multiball situations, probably also when motivated by helping TTH out, it is not as easy to see as some of you think.

2. TTH is still not posting and when I asked him where she is, he called it a cheap shot and started the wagon on me (after throwing feelers out first, which I also find scummy).

Now that the claim is making others hesitate he switched to damage control, telling me that it may be that my posts are coming off garbled due to phone posting.

His case on me btw was that I fake reaction tested him as a smoke screen to seem active, nobody that has played with me or seen my scum games would find low posting activity scum indicative, I am always one of the top posters as both alignments (ergo my posting activity comes from irl related issues).

I also want to dispell the notion that I have been super active only in the PT, the difference is how much time I have to spend reading posts on the main thread while on the phone and how much I am free the talk town reads and setup spec there as opposed to here.

[copper223]

It is a BS read Titus threw out to support Anti's case, either cause they are buddies or cause Titus really has no clue what she is doing as has always been the case when I've played with her, and like LLD said she also seems immune to learning.

[copper223]

I think I will vig. you

[copper223]

I have a history with Titus getting everything wrong so that's my first instinct when she comes up with them but in her usual posting style that makes me think town, it may have been a premature read but I did not say omg never lynch Titus so...

I explained in detail why I found expe worth investigating and now that you know I am in a PT with Luna where she claim slipped you can add that to why she is obv. town and why expe's nonsensical push made me think he was scum.

Incidentally I partially changed my mind when he showed he was willing to reassess (it has come to mind that he may have needed to bail on that push as well, his posting style is still different), if my motives aren't transparent there idk...

I was reaction testing heartless and I needed the pressure to be there and that's why I said to stop giving away town reads, that did not make me town or scum read them, Anti did not shut down which seemed more likely town thsn not at the time hence I checked other players and Kuroi's posting is scummy, there was no "hop".

[copper223]

It is a BS read Titus threw out to support Anti's case, either cause they are buddies or cause Titus really has no clue what she is doing as has always been the case when I've played with her, and like LLD said she also seems immune to learning.

Really? The discredit is powerful. Newbie 1710 I had all but two reads solved accurately by day 1. Try me again. You also don't have the history to say that I am immune to learning. You never once have ever raised that issue ever before.

I've meanwhile played with anti and TTH a whole fuckton. If I didn't think mislynching you might throw the game into an unrecoverable tailspin, I would be voting you.

Insanity, 1710 I wanted to lynch scum Ness, scum Root and absolute town lurker Algae, you spent your day hard tunnelling town Thor to the point you sacked your JK role to try and get the cred for a lynch and happily got yourself killed, you also hard defended scum Ness/Root for the whole day, that is a good game?

I have played 3 games with you, I don't make rash judgments but more and more I am losing respect for your ability to read players, what you are good at is getting people lynched (mostly town) and conf biasing about the times you were right apparently.

[copper223]

TTH is still not posting

but

she is???

Heartless is scum, beg forgiveness after the game if you are not one of their buddies.

[copper223]

I never pushed Nahdia in that game, I called her town on page 2 and immediately supported her dumb BP claim, I claimed Root slipped, which he did, you tried to convince me charl was town, Algae lurked for the whole of D1 and much like Kuroi here is a good lynch regardless, as Thor says he has the same chances as any if not more to be scum and we are getting rid of a lylo liability anyway. By all means folks read 1710 and tell me whose reads you would rather follow.

We agree on Kuroi (which BTW is making me sus I am wrong), the other players I am going to check again on a PC are WT and expe.

[copper223]

Ah yes, RAM also needs a check.

[copper223]

Umm guys...
Meta arguments are fine and all, but...
I think you're going a bit over the top discussing another game ^_^;;

Titus is asking why/claiming I am discrediting her, that is why it is relevant Luna.

[copper223]

What I care about is that you appear to think some players are never worth lynching D1 and that you are trying to stop me from lynching scum based on this terrible idea.

[copper223]

K RAM is also a good lynch.

[copper223]

@WT
I on the other hand am not seeing where all the scum reads on you are coming from, by all means tell me why I look bad.

[copper223]

K RAM is also a good lynch.

Vote them then.

Heartless is not going to be lynched even if you think they're scum because too many people are townreading them.

I am going to make a giant case on the pc this week end and if once again nobody cares I'll look for the next likely.

[copper223]

Also I skimmed her ISO in BLOODBORNE MAFIA and she had good tone, so there goes the only reservation I had about the slot.

What does this mean?

[copper223]

Math is right about the 5 factions, that is obviously the case and RB gets scum points for trying to cast doubt on it.

@Expe
So you are saying she has good tone as scum?

What I am getting is that rude Kling is more likely to be town Kling, that is likely what she means about Titus lying about her meta.

[copper223]

Yes I mean no retreat.

[copper223]

Not very deep but leaning scum.

[copper223]

there's this but I would think it would just be flavor

[copper223]

I already did MB, I meant no retreat.

If you want answers to a post please link it

[copper223]

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

-Cerb

I think it's foolish but also more town indicative unless you always do it and then it bevomes null, to try and form scumteams this early, the fact she didn't mention it before I don't find problematic, I also have reads I am not sharing and I might on a bad day decide 2 are related.

What is the scum motivation for it, she doesn't have true reads so she can't keep track? (In a multiball?).

WT is right that Kuroi has given no hint of trying to solve the game.

[copper223]

I need to meta her to see if the above is plausible.

[copper223]

@Luna
Read the PT.

[copper223]

@Toog
From your flavor can you tell if the scum faction is nosferatu or wulden?

[copper223]

Feels good to finally be back on a keyboard.

Upon reflection, although I am pretty certain that Heartless is scum (the latest posting from TTH seems more indicative of her town game but they pulled the same switcheroo in that jk9++) I agree with expe. that it's pointless to beat the horse to death (tried that in a few games but it doesn't always work and I don't have the cred with this particular playlist yet), instead I'll give you a full read list, hopefully if I do a good job reading the rest of the townies they will realized I might be correct with my scum-reads as well.

[copper223]

@ASOIAF

Is very likely town

( Ice is scum hunting like mad and following up on everything she asks plus ending the conversation with a read, she often also drops why she asked that question, i.e. she had an opinion to start out with and checked to see if the player she is interacting with will match her expectation), this is multi-ball so I can't town read her for the rest of the game, here are some questions for you:

- What is your read (if you have one) on Heartless, Nosferatu, Toog. ?

- What didn't you like about Molla in your first post?

- Do you remember why you stopped your conversation with Dram and didn't give a read? Many pages later you seem to have a scum lean, lately you have moved him to null, can you confirm?

From what I've seen about FB this is also more likely to be his town game.

[copper223]

She means it's natural to want to be town-read as town because it validates your play, and that's different from trying to get the rest of the players to town read you cause you have a vested interest in being town-read (cause as scum you are afraid that if you don't have enough players that like you, you will get lynched).

There is an internal consistency in Ice's posting about her reads that considering the free flowing nature of her posts is nearly impossible to fake.

[copper223]

Fair enough, I'm happy with you, try to win when I'm not in the game.

[copper223]

Stop being snarky dram.

[copper223]

@RB
Noted, the internal consistency is about how she engages with A, asks A about something she finds relevant and then transparently gives a read about A at the end of the discussion. I'll engage with you when I get to your ISO now that I'm not forced to skim.

[copper223]

I'm not being snarky though?
Self-awareness is important, but trying to make people say I'm town only means I need my play to be approved for ?reasons?
Ya know, what WT is doing.

You can't impose your matrix of how the game ought to be played and call everyone that diverges from it bad (maybe this is a town tell for you btw), some people are naturally more inclined to seek validation depending on age, gender etc... she is not asking the be town-read, she wants to be town-read very likely because she is town (so in her mind if she is doing it right everyone

ought to

town read her).

[copper223]

@copper, why are you still voting heartless? Why are you not voting Kuroi or wt?

Because I am going through everyone's ISOs (including yours which I predict is going to give me a headache when trying to decide what you are this time) so I have 0 interest in letting you end the day, before I get to reviewing him I still think he is scum and the fact that he was focusing on ASOIAF if I got that correctly from his phone isn't helping his case.

Why are you asking me questions that are obviously already answered in my posts?

[copper223]

EBWOP:

before I get to reviewing Kuroi I still think he is scum and the fact that he was focusing on ASOIAF if I got that correctly from my phone isn't helping his case.

[copper223]

Titus is very self aware of her meta, don't use meta to read her.

[copper223]

@Titus
For you maybe, I want to give my reads (which if you are town you ought to listen to, although feint hope of that happening).

This game can survive another night without a lynch while I organize my thoughts now that I have a PC to work with, I'll help you nail Kuroi if I still think he is scum after my review.

[copper223]

@BBmolla
Is more likely

anti-town

, this particular claim reminds me a lot of the we didn't playtest this miller claim.

My role is very basic

The devil is in the details and this is an easy way to side step answers that may involve teammates.

Great Ridge

Based on flavor geography of where the difference factions seized territory (which admittedly mastin claimed might be a red herring) slightly higher chance of you being a Wulden (according to Toog. that's more likely to be the cult faction), if so the claim you are human aligned per your wincon is likely a lie.

just throwing this out there, when I made my "I'm town" post the irony was that I wasn't 100% sure I was actually town but I figured I was due to lack of nightkill

This sounds true, you can recruit players instead of killing them?

[copper223]

@Wake
Who are the 4 scum reads that House posted in the hydra PT?

[copper223]

I have mixed feelings about C+A but leaning

null scum

cause House's focus seemed to be mostly about setup breaking and his whole interaction with Titus makes little sense, first he calls her town that will never change her mind once she gets a read (which I mostly agree with), but then spends his time trying to make her change her read (?) and after that fails (despite Titus's focus being on other players mostly) goes ahead and votes her, the reason given is not that bad though.

The focus on the 4 lurkers makes sense but is also pretty safe, I'll add more if wake gives me those names.

[copper223]

Cephrir is likely town aligned.

[copper223]

A50 is likely town and his interaction with Heartless is just another reason for why they are likely scum, the connection you are seeing between me and heartless is me trying to find out what alignment they are, playing around with my teammates like that is not something I do as scum.

I'll take a break to let others posts, at the end I will collect all the reads in a spoiler post.

[copper223]

Cephrir is likely town aligned.

After reading a50 I need to think about this more.

[copper223]

In the latest games I've played cerb is unbearable (and more importantly town the last time), is he like this as scum as well?

[copper223]

In both games your focus is on judging others for how bad you think they are (the other time you self voted and said town deserved to lose), now my fellow player your job, assuming town, is to ferret out the alignment of the rest of us and get us to agree to vote for likely scum, critiques about our performance that are not AI actually work against your wincon because they create a barrier towards working together.

I can understand frustration when you think someone misplayed, but you are going above and beyond, you also don't appear to consider how bad this makes your play in return (+ points to my fellow neighb. Nahdia).

TLDR: please look and discuss about AI relevant points, you can give advice or say where you think someone misplayed in the post game phase.

[copper223]

I have no doubt Mastin will at most ask a50 not to use that color combo, it certainly doesn't make sense to mod kill someone for a rule they did not know existed.

I also find it inane but I am not LLD and maybe it was a big deal in say 2010, the question is: does LLD posting that make her more likely scum? I don't think so but then again I have only played with town LLD and she always seems disconnected and super mad early on in the game, so this fits and makes me town lean on her but she may be the same as scum as well.

[copper223]

Fair enough.

[copper223]

I'm going to buddy up to LLD by saying Cerb is a big ole' meany.

Why do you think that was my motivation?

[copper223]

gut mostly. I feel like 3740 was mostly unnecessary and worded weird. I now it was a responce to a question you were asked but things like

now my fellow player your job, assuming town, is to ferret out the alignment of the rest of us and get us to agree to vote for likely scum, critiques about our performance that are not AI actually work against your wincon because they create a barrier towards working together.

Give me a real mediation type feel and I think that often comes from scum.

And you are doing what you are accusing Cerb of, judging others.

Hard to call it unnecessary and an answer to a direct question in the same sentence and be genuine.

Some scum like to mediate because it accomplishes the same thing as fence sitting without being so obvious about it, this however was not an alignment relevant discussion and if it continued was likely to derail scum hunting and interest for the next few pages at least while people shouted at each other, do you often operate using broad scumtells?

The difference is I asked if that was AI for cerb. as he behaved the same way as town in a recent game, when asked to clarify I gave my advice in case he is town and has the same wincon I have, which is not the same as judging him.

[copper223]

VOTE: LLD

[copper223]

It's transformed lycan, a special race for this game.

[copper223]

It is not guaranteed to be the same as the standard werewolf (goon substitute) as this game has custom factions and is bastare btw, but the chance of it being somehow town aligned are ridiculously small.

The wulden being cult is based on Toog. 's flavor, they could also just be the scum faction as would seem more logical going by traditional flavors used in mafia.

@Math
Good that you are here, I read some of the BS you asked/accused me of yesterday and that sounds like the stuff scum comes up with.

[copper223]

It is not guaranteed to be the same as the standard werewolf (goon substitute) as this game has custom factions and is bastare btw, but the chance of it being somehow town aligned are ridiculously small.

The wulden being cult is based on Toog. 's flavor, they could also just be the scum faction as would seem more logical going by traditional flavors used in mafia.

@Math
Good that you are here, I read some of the BS you asked/accused me of yesterday and that sounds like the stuff scum comes up with.

Then explain how you think it is BS. If you incorrectly think I am scum then you should be pushing, poking, and prodding me til you find out I am not. Not just saying "Math posted BS".

I want to see where you are going with this before replying, it is BS by definition given my information set, the question is misguided or malicious.

I am not pushing scum cause we have basically confirmed scum to lynch.

[copper223]

Being alone does not make you town, that's a laughable assumption.

[copper223]

I am Cerberus, you are all dumb, let me make a huge post that reaches no conclusion and parrots Nahdia.

LLD's forced claim after the check is not null ( ), it makes her by far the likeliest scum or if we want to be generous anti-town even over heartless whom I know has other as a nation and is therefore very unlikely to be human, likeliest is they are the 5th faction.

Beeboy is still posting in this game and this makes it unlikely for him to be pure scum, LLD did not cc so this discussion for today is pointless anyway.

[copper223]

I'm human and 'Other' so no it doesn't mean shit. Race is literally poop in this game.

False, Martin confirmed that geography makes it more likely for you to be a certain faction, and that there are exceptions to throw people off.

So you confirm claiming human with other as a nation?

[copper223]

It does as we have a vested interest, besides maybe landmine Luna who is likely playing to her own tune regardless of wincon, to get rid of the wulden in the PT.

We are the slaves of humanity, our creators, dedicated to protect and help humans and trying to save the world from the other monster threats. I understand this game is bastard but there is no way the new human treaty is a compact between monsters to kill humans, we suspect there are human xenophobes that we can't win with, that much is true.

[copper223]

I am reading Luna as having received my faction PM but actively playing against my wincon despite being told she was doing so by everyone else in the PT a dozen times, if that is confirmed by her flip I will ask the mod if there are grounds for a ban for playing against your wincon post game.

Unless my read changes I am ignoring her existence for the rest of the game.

[copper223]

Luna why can't the rest of your hood be reliable like you.

Reliable /=/=/= likely easy to read.

Same question as Cerberus.

[copper223]

I am voting LLD cause Wulden is more or less a cult/scum claim given our information, the rest she likely made up.

[copper223]

There is no guarantee there is a wulden in our PT, on the other hand it is certain LLD is a Wulden, voting for one of us over LLD is insane.

[copper223]

And? We can make the same dumb argument about not knowing if the spy is magically aligned with us after all so that's irrelevant.

SS is being salty about getting outed and is trying to sabotage the hood cause what they are saying makes no sense, prolly the redirect is fake.

[copper223]

There is no guarantee there is a wulden in our PT, on the other hand it is certain LLD is a Wulden, voting for one of us over LLD is insane.

Still pushing that race = faction card?

Shall we vote a random or someone whose race we know is scum or cult 90% of the time with maybe possibly the weird one out that is actually town aligned? What a hard question.

[copper223]

Because you don't put a spy in my PT from a faction that has my wincon, ergo we are almost guaranteed to be on opposite sides and despite the nonsense I have read we are town aligned, survivor wins with scum as well if they are not NKd while we need to form a majority with town to win.

Wulden and Nosferatu, the other two main non human factions, most likely also have a PT and that's where they all (or the bulk of them) are.

I also don't see any undead outside of the PT rushing to join our ranks which makes the proposition that LLD is a Wulden operating alone more unlikely.

What mastin said is that there can be different races in the same faction, you are arguing that the two are independent of each other, which based on the fact that we claimed undead are all apparently working for the same goal is absolute nonsense.

[copper223]

@rb
What is paid full to read is your attempt to create chaos willingly or out of ignorance, of course we may have a wulden mole, the rest of us are all the same race and share the same wincon however so are we special snowflakes? Fuck that, I have strong circumstantial evidence that race is alignment significant, you just have platitudes about scum-hunting.

[copper223]

I'm pretty sure that Dram's WinCon wins with cult though, unless I'm mistaken.

Err, huh? Aren't you defending LLD..?
-Nahdia

I'm trying to figure out why your apparent WinCon which is the same as Dram's is trying to kill cultists. Like I might be totally wrong but it seems to me that your supposed WinCon doesn't actually care if the cult exists or not.

OK you are also scum.

[copper223]

So RB is doing the throw the stone hide the hand classical scumtell, which means it's a waste of time trying to convince him if anything as he has a vested interest in not listening, should be clear for the town aligned why race is significant, if there are town vies. please take note.

[copper223]

@RB
LOL. Phadaprasing:

Nahdia I may be wrong (let me leave an out here in case you fuck me over) but I am going to nitpick on something remotely relevant like whether you can win with the cult 5th faction we know nothing about that nonetheless throws scum at you, aren't I smart.

This is transparently disingenuous so you have an agenda so it's a waste of time trying to convince you of anything.

[copper223]

Yes cause I already told you LLD is the closest thing to guaranteed scum, what a shocking behavior from me and what a spurious argument from you.

[copper223]

The first part I already explained.

About the second, It depends on what the cult's secret wincon is, based on the fact they started the war and we are trying to end it with a treaty the answer is most likely no.

[copper223]

Genau SS, you are faster than me on the phone, you can hear the glass bending on RB's silly attempts to frame me.

[copper223]

@RB
The accusation is clear, I think you are scum aligned cause:

- You have been fence sitting on your accusations/probes giving yourself an out in case it went wrong and pushing the wrong things.

- you are trying to disrupt every attempt to start solving the setup based on the information we have by claiming it's impossible to do (using faulty logic) and by accusing the players trying to of slipping (I have never seen such a slip in a real game from a non newbie, the rest of us understand you can post your thoughts in the scum PT about that if you want to, so that's likely another attempt to shut that line of research down cause you likely have something to lose if we figure it out).

[copper223]

Lynching likely scum is in no way a cop out, you are the town hindrance but the again you are most likely not town.

Examples of fence sitting off the top of my head:

- Your read yesterday on ASOIAF.

- Your questioning about the cult to SS today, that is almost a scum-claim btw.

Mastin said once that race /= faction, which you are pushing as race HAS NOTHING TO DO with faction, and that is false and you know it is.

I am busy lynching lynching LLD, one of you and SS are next on my agenda, don't worry.

[copper223]

Man I hope this guy is not another Luna, cause I have filled my quota of that.

I agree on WT, I also tend to agree on Expe. (I posted in the PT thread a while back that Dram. was likely killed because of his WT read), the idea that my Mathblade read (as scum no less) would change based on your interactions with him is so laughable I don't even...

Heartless is even scummier than yesterday, unfortunately, I cannot just mass-lynch ~ 7 players so I have to start with the likeliest, which happens to be LLD. Kling makes a good case for starting with SS though.

I like how I am tunneling and fence sitting in the same post, do you even think about the stuff you write?

[copper223]

So now you are town reading MathBlade again?

[copper223]

Also what's your take on the fact that earlier in the game you were townreading Math, and now that I went and independently saw a lot of the things they came up with - we're both in somewhat agreement on our reads.

I wanted that on record given this, I think you are in the same scum faction.

[copper223]

As for Maths' points:

@Copper why did you say you couldn't townread Song all game yet call them very likely town?

Because as multiball the mere fact they are scum hunting like mad and being genuine about it doesn't guarantee them being town, it is more than enough to defend them D1 though.

This is shit. Being aware and being able to change it are two different things.
I hate meta to read anyone but if you are a meta reader and are going to exclude meta you do so because you realize it doesn't work on that person.

FOS Titus +Copper.

This post is pretty scummy along the lines of RB's SS "question", it makes a pointless distinction between being aware and being able to change your meta(obviously what I am implying is that she can manipulate her meta so that's not the way to read Titus and people asking about it should concentrate on other aspects of her game), and this is also why I started to change my mind on Mathblade. I also see no re-evaluation of that FOS now that he has 1 flip to work with and a claim from me of different sort.

@RB
You continue being a sarcastic ass, I'll lynch LLD and then, assuming my labors bear fruit and I was right about, you can either kill me or face the firing squad tomorrow.

[copper223]

Good cover for your fuckup in 5039 though. Looks like you realised you have literally no choice but to scumread Math because they and I are following similar patterns of thinking/reasoning. You literally can't scucmread me and not them if you're Town.

But you're not Town and you didn't think of that.

[copper223]

I was phone posting from Thailand, I am here now and I am specifically talking about lynching LLD . I bet your mom hates you too .

[copper223]

Copper you're still yet to give actual evidence as to why we should take race as indicating faction.

The evidence is there are 5 possibly and 4 almost guaranteed members of the undead race all in the same PT and sharing the same wincon as a faction, I do not believe we are the only ones in that position nor should anyone with a lick of brain.

[copper223]

Only undead are allowed in our PT (per mastin guarantee), so at most since the Wulden are partially undead after their transformation from Lyncans we have Wulden mole(s).

It makes very little sense for there to be more than 1 Wulden mole both balance-wise and based on how the players have behaved, let's even assume 2 to cover lunatic fringe cases, that still means there are 3 undead (of the same race, one of which is mod confirmed post flip to be the same as me) with the same faction wincon, that's enough to believe the other undead races (Nosferatu and Wulden) also have PT's and shared win-cons, so claiming to be of that race is a bigger scum-tell than everything I have read about WT.

[copper223]

shifting the argument cause you have lost.

[copper223]

ask Luna.

[copper223]

Exactly, the player who I have no influence on so if it were a lie I would be fucked, which pretty much guarantees to anyone with a brain bigger than an amoeba that I am not lying .

[copper223]

Whether they have fake claims or not if they even exist is irrelevant for the point I am making that race is a significant tell of your alignment.

[copper223]

Mastin does not consider Humans, Vampires, lycans, nosferatu, or others undead.

[copper223]

No it is not possible, what is possible is that there are multiple Wulden moles, I am 50/50 that there is 1 to begin with, which is the most logical setup, maybe in a weird world there are 2, more is so unlikely it goes under the threshold you consider when making rational decisions about what the best play is.

[copper223]

Why is the fact you separated relevant?

[copper223]

Why is the fact you separated relevant?

Why exactly do you think it isn't?

I do not have an opinion on it yet, I am waiting for you to tell me why you bolded that part.

[copper223]

@wake
Ok. We already have North, East and West kingdoms, 4 non human factions and a secret 5 race, if you are telling the truth that is likely a warning to you not to trust another player claiming pinkskin just cause you share a tribe, I do not think a whole scum team based on the split is a likelt scenario.

[copper223]

My god rb, that post makes sense!

[copper223]

Yes I do not believe what wake is arguing for is possible and I already asked Mastin about it, reply pending.

[copper223]

They likely have most of the above but RB's point that faction = wincon is what I've based all the game on, a lemma of that point is that race/nation/location which I consider imperfect proxies of faction are also relevant (we can argue about the % once this becomes accepted as a fact).

[copper223]

It's a faction PT with potential Wulden infiltrators is how I understand it but I asked Mastin precisely that in a different way.

[copper223]

She asked me to answer cause we lambasted her for leaking too much of what was said in the PT.

[copper223]

The difference is important.

[copper223]

VOTE: SS

It'possible that Cephrir wins with us if he is telling the truth according to what Mastin clarified.

An undead spy is also possible.

[copper223]

@everyone/anyone The case on LLD was the she is a caught Wulden and she claimed to be an independent wulden and everyone thinks she's lying?

The case on SS is that there's a guilty on him and he's arguing that Luna's been redirected and that he's in a hood?

Yes on the LLD case.

SS is not arguing they are in the hood, they claim vampire like kuroi and that Luna was redirected (or is lying although I don't remember reading that claim from them).

[copper223]

How about from SS's perspective given their information set individual vampire doctor looks townie as fuck, they know isolationist is scum aligned so when Luna outs their faction they knee-jerk jump at the closest plausible town faction they see and then latch onto the idea of a redirect since Luna herself is paranoid about it?

Or how about vampire is actually pro town and that's the safe claim Mastin gave them?

Either way I am pretty sure they are lying about being vampires after saying they want all of our PT dead.

What an impossible chain of events eh Cerb.

[copper223]

Thanks Rach for the carry!

All of you who decided to ratify are nice people.

@Nero

[copper223]

@Mastin
Thanks for modding, I'll nominate you for best flavor, just the level of detail alone was incredible and made it more fun to try and figure the game out (but get yourself a back-up mod!).

[copper223]

Bacde was litterally the worst person who could survive from your group

Yep cause unfortunately there were a ton of vigs. this game, otherwise he would have been perfect, cause as scum, if the only options are kill Bacde or don't kill anyone, there is a good chance I'd choose the latter.

[copper223]

Rach becomes scum and you need to kill her before winning the game.