Gistou (Over!)

[RAM]

/confirm.

This entire discussion about BBMolla is at least(hopefully) ensuring that nobody else will claim their humanity or lack thereof. His original claim isn't especially alignment indicative. I don't believe I've ever seen him specifically claim anything super early on D1 as scum, but I have limited experience with his scum play. In a void though, just doing it doesn't mean anything other than that he did something suboptimal.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I have made many poor decisions in my life.

I'm glad participating in an 11-page and counting pregame wasn't one of them.

I'll read up in maybe an hour/when I feel in the mood or let Cerb and Drixx catch me up and then I'll just spend my time interacting with people. Consider me the friendly talkative face to the hydra that is very approachable. I haven't hydra'd in a while & if anyone has played in a hydra game with me you'll know it takes me even longer than normal to warm up to a game.

~ Bins.

[RAM]

Also, how the fuck is this a beaver?

I have made a promise that every post I make will be worth your time to read. Therefore, I will share my townread on BBMolla and my slight scumread on Copper and a mild townread on Luna Fox but I hope to have that read cleared up in due time. I'm on like page 5, though.

I'm going tryhard this game for Drixx and Cerb. Please notice me.

~Bins again.


pedit - pls notice me pls

[RAM]

@bins your not saying anything that we wanna discuss it with you, catch up so we can talk

Disappointing.

~Binsy

[RAM]

I'm really excited in a game like this, that's all. All sorts of weird potential shit.

me rn

I keep having to take a step back because I'm genuinely going to start having too much fun and annoying the shit out of everyone. Even with all the shit in the sign-up thread, after reading my role and just reading the first few pages I'm already pumped. Also, hydra-ing makes me confident. Damn. No one fucking ruin this.

<<< This is the reaction I strived for. <3 >>>

pedit — dram is scum? this gets even better

[RAM]

do you know you're town now? if so, how?

Reactions to my fullclaim

I would've figured from your role pm kek

nope my role pm didn't specify I was town, did yours?

maybe I am scum

but ur genuinely being transparent as fuck so that counts as something to me

~beens

[RAM]

pedit — dram is scum? this gets even better

how do you figure?

She's probably trying to set herself up BEFORE I claim a guilty on her.

Yep. I've learned my lesson.

~ Bins.

just a gut reaction to that post. and... all of his posts.

[RAM]

Should we all claim the checks we picked to limit shenanigans? Discuss

...No?
That only favors the scum?

Yep. All it does is force the people who get multiple pieces of information to lie and say they only get one, and then causes all this bullshit later on when they have to actually claim they know THIS information for reals, and just casts doubt on pseudo cop claims for people, basically.

I get the idea, that it keeps scum from sharing information and attributing it all to one slot, or switching up claims when convenient, but like...the people who get lots of information SHOULDN'T be claiming it until it's relevant, which means there will be no discernible difference between scum shenanigans and optimal play.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Don't see the difference between Nos and Dav, to be honest. In fact, I think the exact opposite. I like Nos' questions and think Dav is just looking to do stuff.

~ Bins

[RAM]

Not a fan of the Nos scumread though. If anything Nos is more active than normal.

@RAM, Is Drixx ok?

He's okay, just busy with moving preparations and he originally thought the game wouldn't require his attention until after everyone confirmed.

We're also avoiding the sort of frequent posting that we usually do, just to try to make the game more accessible for everyone. Like he said in the signup thread, our heads at least will be restricting our posting to situations where our commentary will actually be significant.

-Cerb

[RAM]

It has come to my attention that rb may have scum slipped.

He said the last time he played as Town was 2 months ago. His first game he played he was Town which was May 17th, about 2 months ago.

That is an incredibly weak point. Do you sincerely believe him talking about past games means he is scum here? I feel like it would have been far more contrived if he had said "last time I played as town (other than this game) was two months ago". Plus, it is arguable that using the words "the last time I did x" rather than "I haven't done x since" implies that THIS TIME x is the case. (Granted, I did not go reread those posts to see exactly what phrasing he used, I'm basing my interpretation off the exact phrasing you used to reference his comment)

Bad point is bad.

Cephrir, you quoted someone's list of reads(they had 3 town, and 1 scum) and you said you agreed with three of those reads, but did not specify which three. One of those town reads was on Expedience, and you later expressed positivity towards Nahdia's post attacking Expedience.

(Sorry, mobile, or I'd go back and get you the actual posts)

Anyways, just curious which three reads you agreed with from that post, and why you didn't specify it at the time...also curious about the nature of your enjoyment of that post by Nahdia. Did you agree with the Expedience read there? Or was there something else about it that you enjoyed?

Nahdia, when you wake up in the morning(and you specifically, not the other heads of your hydra), please explain this Expedience attack to me again, in a different fashion if at all possible. I don't really see the cause for the pressure on him (unless it's pressure for pressures sake, but that doesn't seem to be the case, a bunch of people appear to legitimately believe they're scum), and I'd like to understand this better. And since you started it, I feel hearing your reasoning in greater depth if at all possible would be most informative.

-Cerb

Pedit: well, it seems my first point was just addressed. Good.

[RAM]

The more a game becomes a daily commitment the less effort I have. Wasn't expecting to have to make a post every day that's going to be catch-up length.

I doubt I'm going to be quoting posts and making wall posts. I'll throw some reads out and then talk to Drixx and Cerb before I vote.

I've been skimming along during my breaks at work on my main account. I had some stuff to say.

@Exp —whose reads look very much pulled out of thin air, you asked me why I thought Dram was scum but I already explained I was getting bad gut reactions from his posts. I don't mind them as much as A LOT of others by other people. It was also a joke (the read was legit, the way I worded it "YAY DRAM IS SCUM" was a joke).

I think BOTH Heartless and Nahdia are playing a lot like how I would play as scum. Nahdia especially, so that's freaking me out slightly. Long word-y posts with hefty djasd!!! emotion. Don't know how to explain it but I think you understand.

But for Heartless, I'm pretty sure that's just how Antihero talks regardless of alignment. Never played with Nahdia. Anyways, not a big deal the content of Nahdia's posts have been town. This is mainly so that I express my paranoia of certain town reads I have before it comes up later and I flail around a bunch about how they are freaking the beejesus out of me.

To explain this better I think what Nahdia is doing, although screams town, can be faked and I fake it like that when I'm scum ALL THE TIME.

anyways yeah you can see how this was just stuff that was bugging me at work #nofilteringthoughts

--

Okay, now that I think of it (after looking back)... fuck making more posts. Here's just a list of people that have made posts that have bugged me (OFF THE TOP OF MY HEAD GG):
Titus (?) disclaimer: idk how to read Titus
dramonic (less so now)
Almost50
Wayward Thinker (LicketyQuickety + Suzune)
davesaz
copper223
Cane + Able (House + Wake88)
Expedience
TheWayItEnds

I have townreads (varying strengths) on:
Heartless (Antihero + TellTaleHeart)
Salt Squad (SirCakez + beeboy + Heat)
Nosferatu
Mathblade
Stormblade (Albert B. Rampage + Errantparabola + Nahdia)
A Song of Ice and Fire (Frozen Angel + Firebringer)
Luna Fox


~ Bins


"Hey Bins, that's a long list!"

1) stfu I'm trying really hard.
2) THIS IS 40 PAGES I HAD A LOT OF POSTS THAT BUGGED ME
3) also that would create WAY too much work for me if I individually pointed them out. gotta do that shit realtime.


also who was it that is scumreading Heartless?

calling you out rn Heartless scumreads are just to be edgy and different and you know that you really don't have any real dirt / real reasoning
(trust me i tried looking to explain my long wordy post paranoia)




anyone else still feeling HYPED
after this post the vibe is back


also i havent read like the last 3 pages dont talk to me about those yet

[RAM]

ARE YOU FUCKING PROUD I KEPT THAT ALL TO ONE POST THAT WAS SO HARD FOR ME

[RAM]

So to begin analysis I decided to ISO Expedience, both because of his interactions with me and because of the wagon on him.

Spoiler: Expe iso

55 calls 38 hypocritical and implies Song is scum
56 comments to Tim's 46, but whose entrance was town? Wayward
57 Molla town
60 he's town, how is defending wayward hypocritical?
63 would vote song
93 luna scum
105 still on luna
111 why luna? lol
118 tim town
121 luna pretending to scumread him?
136 FA mediator, scummy
485 RAM kind of scum
532 votes C+A
539 fucking around except for kinda scumreading luna
546 doesn't like rb post, don't specifically address anyone
560 reply to my question about 546
561 wants to lynch me (note his two lynch wants are people who questioned him)
570 if rb is scumreading him then why is Luna rb's friend?
576 votes rb
581 trying to excuse early (<485?) posts as 3am. buddying nahdia too...
589 wayward scum, molla slight town
596 early posts were meant to be joking
727 reads list. ceph, nos, molla town; luna, rb, titus, dave, ram scum; titus is new...
735 i'm scum because 590 makes no sense...
751 actually asks a question, of RAM
758 titus trying to convince herself kling is scum
777 comment on titus telling math they are confbiasing. note, I missed that he accuses titus of the same thing she was previously accused of in post 263-274 range
780 votes titus (784 for terrible reasoning)
793 sees another titus post which invalidates earlier thoughts? not sure how... back to rb
812 uses molla's post about rb jokes to justify scumread
859 luna's 838 is a scumclaim? but other people do it too, it's nearly universal
932 quotes my 824 no reaction. quotes RAM defending rb. Votes luna because rb might be town. wayward town
974 defends against Nahdia "you just disagree with me"
976 reply to almost50 reads. I kinda agree on the no scumreads question
988 stormblade town
990 to song: attacked them to find their alignment
1004 forgot it was multiball (because he's town) ?? really? how can you possibly miss it?
1006 - has given reads on most other players. this is checkable (see above)
1033 accuses Luna of lying about meta knowledge. he played with her main and trolled -- like he is here?

Interactions with other players and analysis:
Song: Early in the game said they were scummy, would vote them. Later in the game 990 said he attacked them to find their alignment. No other evidence in ISO that he's doing anything to find their alignment.

Tim: Says he's town in early game. No further interactions that I noticed.

Wayward: Says their entrance was town, by way of comment to a post by Tim. Explained the read vaguely. Replied to a question from them. Defended them from Salt. Defended again, "painfully town". This all seems consistent, although the reasoning is vague. Strangely, no direct interaction via quote, though I could have missed some back/forth which had no quotes.

Luna: Says she's scum, but gives lol for a reason. Claims she's only pretending to scum read him, point out her admission that she OMGUS's as a scum claim. In 539 he as much as admits to Nahdia that he was joking. In 988 he clearly says his scum read is caused by her OMGUS (which was caused by his scum read). In 1033 he claims she's lying about their (brief) history by pointing out a game where he trolled her and she got mad -- which is exactly what he's doing here!

Well now, I should have just listened to my gut I think. In my exchanges with him I immediately thought he was trying to twist our conversation to a place where he could scumread me, but I doubted it because I have a weakness for thinking that. Turns out on a deeper look at his Luna read, he led her straight into doing what he's scum reading her for, and he admitted that he knew she would react exactly the way she did. Repeat after me, manipulation ahoy!

VOTE: Expedience

This is a pretty disgusting post, though.

Or is it just Dav.


Wait, I feel like this exact comment has been made before.

~ Bins


Also, I'm not going to lie. I haven't really been reading Storm's posts because 1) THOSE TYPES OF POSTS SCARE ME (see above) 2) it's all been about Exp and I think I see it already. Maybe? I hope so or else this will be awkward.

I was immediately burned out when people saying that my game plan was a joke if you want me to be honest.

ok, man.... i feel like i'm fixin' to have another hiplop situation...

i'm not TRYING to be a dipshit even though i kind of am but that's b/c i AM a dipshit that's not you. but i will say, matter-of-factly, that i think your approach is very flawed and you are very likely to townread a fair amount of scum. i mean... you'll probably townread a lot of town (just by sheer probability, w/ or w/o the help of scum knowledge) and that's cool. but i think the methodology has flaws (even in single ball, probably exacerbated in multiball)

that's just my opinion, take it or leave it. i kinda' dont care. i dont rly have any interest in micromanaging you.

IMPORTANT TAKE AWAY: just dont think i'm mindlessly putting you down because you're you. b/c im not.

Anyways, it's pretty clear what I'm talking about for Nahdia, but this is what I'm talking about for Heartless. ^ This is the one post by them where I'm LIKE "Nope! Not reading anymore!" These types of posts give me so many heebies and jeebies because this is EXACTLY WHAT I DO AS SCUM.

So here I am, with a really strong townread on Heartless, and I get to this post. And I say... welp, I'm going to ignore this for now. See what I mean though? Really wordy?

Damn, game so big feels like I'm talking to an audience and putting on a show.

[RAM]

JESUS I HAVEN'T FIXED MY PROBLWM

I'm just going to end up making quad posts but all the posts are going to be MASSIVE.

Bins, are you trolling me with those emotes? :p

Actually, everyone had emotes to begin with but then I learned there's a limit so I only kept the important ones.

[RAM]

ARE YOU FUCKING PROUD I KEPT THAT ALL TO ONE POST THAT WAS SO HARD FOR ME

No. It sucks.

I'd rather have ten smalls than a wall.

Oh. I missed this post.


Honestly, I'm starting to agree.

Feeling a lot less into it than I would be if I was allowing my ADHD to kick in.

[RAM]

Exp, what was your reasoning for you scumread on us?

I see what Luna is saying.

I feel all your scumreads have no actual reasoning.

[RAM]

Oh. Okay. Dram is defending Exp. I am slow to understand what people are actually talking about/motivated by.

[RAM]

This is mainly so that I express my paranoia of certain town reads I have before it comes up later and I flail around a bunch about how they are freaking the beejesus out of me.

This is overexplanatory and describing your own thought process unprompted is a scumtell.

This... was way after you stated a scumread on us. Please, try again.

Also, that's literally what I do. All the damn time. Explain what I'm thinking and then explain why I'm thinking that way. Do not mistake trying to be cool and trying to fit in as a scummy thing.

p-edit - So, it was me explaining my thought process, my paranoia on Nadhia, and Cerb's posts. Okay. Got it. Reasons, but none that are actually heavy.

ppedit - Okay, I can actually see your logic in this one. But trust me that is again just me trying to fit in and be cool and look edgy.

[RAM]

Also, how the fuck is this a beaver?

I have made a promise that every post I make will be worth your time to read. Therefore, I will share my townread on BBMolla and my slight scumread on Copper and a mild townread on Luna Fox but I hope to have that read cleared up in due time. I'm on like page 5, though.

I'm going tryhard this game for Drixx and Cerb. Please notice me.

~Bins again.


pedit - pls notice me pls

This is such a scummy post.

What? How?!

[RAM]

Uhh if i may interject i think jumpyness is more of a personality trait ^_^;;

No, I definitely agree.

Exp, you're misunderstanding me. The jumpiness is not the scummy part. It's the faking of the jumpiness to look genuine that's the scummy part. Currently, I'm going to dismiss both Nadhia and Heartless' jumpiness/wordiness as genuine (and like I said, especially Heart, because I think that's just Antihero) for now because I currently like their reads/the content of their posts. It was just something I like noting because it is something I see in my own play.

I don't think jumpiness is scummy at all. I just think it's an easy out for scum. Fakeable like I said in my first post.

pedit - not seeing it?

@Dav - I just thought it looked like overjustification. Maybe it is just you.

[RAM]

Oh, here's a better way of wording it (sorry, English is not my first language blah blah blah I usually have to repeat myself):

Jumpiness is faked by scum because it is SEEN in town play. That's the only reason it's faked in the first place. Because geniuneness is towny. I'm not going to deny that I'm emotionally flipfloppy and shit because yeah, I am.


Anyways, this discussion is sort of pointless lmfao because I'm not actually scumreading Nadhia or Antihero at all. But I feel I still need to explain it.

@Dav - it's Bins. Like your defense.


Sorting people. Feelsgood.

[RAM]

Not Voting - 9 (Almost50, Cane + Able, Tim, RAM, Lady Lambdadelta, Skybird, Toogeloo, Franky, Luna Fox)

It would be helpful if you guys voted for someone.

Agreed.

RAM, being Cerb and Drixx will likely not vote though.

I really want to vote probably on the A50 wagon. Maybe Expe, but some of the things he pointed out look wrong, but also very "out there" in terms of logic. Not sure if that's town. pedit - what Dram said.

Cerb is currently not feeling Mafia right now 'cause of a game that just ended and Drixx is not feeling so well. I really value their input, but I'm not going to hold off very long.

[RAM]

The expedience wagon is promising

it is?

i'm kinda' missing whatever everyone else is seeing on that and tth didnt seem to catch anything there either

what are YOU seeing in tit?

Expe is unusually flaily, whereas as town his posts are compact and minimalistic, he is spending far too much time justifying himself and appealing to other players instead of scum hunting, I don't understsnd his Luna read and the way he is pushing it seems fake.

Expe, did you respond to this post?

What do you think of it?

[RAM]

Actually, wait. I can't even understand what Copper is saying. I don't know which qualities go with scumExpe and townExpe. Nevermind.

[RAM]

The expedience wagon is promising

it is?

i'm kinda' missing whatever everyone else is seeing on that and tth didnt seem to catch anything there either

what are YOU seeing in tit?

Expe is unusually flaily, whereas as town his posts are compact and minimalistic, he is spending far too much time justifying himself and appealing to other players instead of scum hunting, I don't understsnd his Luna read and the way he is pushing it seems fake.

Expe, did you respond to this post?

What do you think of it?

Why didn't you ISO him?

This felt easier?

[RAM]

I wanted a current response, as well. After the whole "being _____ is a scumtell".

[RAM]

Waiting for a response that you could have gotten for yourself by skimming an ISO is easier?

Yes?

Why is waiting for a reaction/reply bad? I tacked on an additional question as well.

[RAM]

Yeah. I do that a lot on d1 because everything is up in the air and I feel useless not having much to work with

Ditto, bro.

D1 sucks.

[RAM]

The expedience wagon is promising

it is?

i'm kinda' missing whatever everyone else is seeing on that and tth didnt seem to catch anything there either

what are YOU seeing in tit?

Expe is unusually flaily, whereas as town his posts are compact and minimalistic, he is spending far too much time justifying himself and appealing to other players instead of scum hunting, I don't understsnd his Luna read and the way he is pushing it seems fake.

Expe, did you respond to this post?

What do you think of it?

I think it's a valid observation but not alignment indicative, it's just what happens when people wagon me I guess.

Okay. I like this response a lot.


...but I think your logic does need a little work in regards to your read on me (and even on Luna). You basically read my logic then said "hey let's find posts of her's that fit this" but then you didn't. And then you ended up quoting things that didn't show what you were saying at all. It was a very weird stance to take (like hey ur right but THATS YOU) and I was completely weirded out by it (I wasn't even sure if it was a misunderstanding or if you had legit convinced me my reasoning was wrong to be paranoid) but I somehow see where you're coming from?

Did you read what I was saying about how jumpiness is only something I look for because it's fakeable? Not because it's scummy? I agree that I'm jumpy (I didn't really see it until you pointed it out - that's what I mean by I think I was convinced out of my own paranoia), but jumpiness isn't a scumtell. The reason I'm jumpy/explainy as scum (like I said) is because it's something I do as town.

I, too, get super flaily and stuff when wagoned AS TOWN (a lot more than I do as scum). I don't see anything scummy with your reaction to your wagon.

I'm self-aware. I don't like it when people tell me I'm not. I feel sidetracked, but this is something that is important to me.

[RAM]

Hello all. I slept on it, and I am now here. I'm caught up with the game and current events(though a current VC would be nice).

I dislike stormblade entirely because of ABR's apathy, but Titus is correct in that it's NAI. My own lack of involvement in the early game largely stemmed from the same reason. I'm willing to give him a few RL days, but certainly not an entire three week day phase. I don't think the point that the other heads are deliberately sitting back and letting Nahdia play for them is necessarily true, or if it is, that it's necessarily alignment indicative. If one head of a hydra garners all the town reads, and you can project your questions and pushes through their posting, there is literally no reason to speak up any more than you have to. Town's job is finding scum and not getting mislynched, so even though the first thought people seem to have is that this behavior, if indeed deliberate, is scummy, it's really not imo.
KuroiXF's most recent set of reads are, umm. yeah. It's disingenuous for him to call it underdeveloped, most likely? I've never played with Kuroi before I don't believe. Are his reads lists generally in depth, so him calling this one underdeveloped makes sense, because it's lacking detail? Or no? I need to reread his ISO/the cases against him, I don't recall any strong reason given for the votes, if someone could refresh my memory regarding whose ISO I need to look at to find the source of the push/possible reasoning everyone is agreeing with?
WT: LQ is awkward as fuck, always. He makes literally no sense to me ever. Even though my first inclination is to defend him simply because I know how easy he is to lynch....I've defended him because he's lynchbaity before when he was scum. :/ Suzune is easier to read for me(at least, I've been able to identify her towniness in the past...never seen her scum game, so, grain of salt), but I need more content from that head(CLEARLY LABELLED CONTENT OF SIGNIFICANCE) to pass any judgment here. In short, I haven't seen anything overtly scummy from the slot, just what appears to be standard LQ awkwardness, but that could EASILY be actual scum content.
Expe: Everyones talking about him. I should go reread his iso. He's scumreading my slot. More on this later, after I check his ISO because fuck, why do you all suspect him again? Nothing jumps out of my memory.
Luna: Luna's pretty town yo. Faction slip in PT(I did read that correctly, right? in the PT she has with stormblade, she slipped her faction? Please confirm Stormblade), and her initial posting and points/concerns regarding the whole win condition discussion(which shouldn't be ever mentioned again prior to like D4 or D5(or whenever appropriate in a game this size, I have no fucking idea actually)) seemed quite town.

Top of my head stuff, tried to touch on the people who are actually being voted for. Please engage me and point me in a specific direction for discussions/things you want my opinion on, if I missed anything important.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Hello all. I slept on it, and I am now here. I'm caught up with the game and current events(though a current VC would be nice).

I dislike stormblade entirely because of ABR's apathy, but Titus is correct in that it's NAI. My own lack of involvement in the early game largely stemmed from the same reason. I'm willing to give him a few RL days, but certainly not an entire three week day phase. I don't think the point that the other heads are deliberately sitting back and letting Nahdia play for them is necessarily true, or if it is, that it's necessarily alignment indicative. If one head of a hydra garners all the town reads, and you can project your questions and pushes through their posting, there is literally no reason to speak up any more than you have to. Town's job is finding scum and not getting mislynched, so even though the first thought people seem to have is that this behavior, if indeed deliberate, is scummy, it's really not imo.

KuroiXF's most recent set of reads are, umm. yeah. It's disingenuous for him to call it underdeveloped, most likely? I've never played with Kuroi before I don't believe. Are his reads lists generally in depth, so him calling this one underdeveloped makes sense, because it's lacking detail? Or no? I need to reread his ISO/the cases against him, I don't recall any strong reason given for the votes, if someone could refresh my memory regarding whose ISO I need to look at to find the source of the push/possible reasoning everyone is agreeing with?

WT: LQ is awkward as fuck, always. He makes literally no sense to me ever. Even though my first inclination is to defend him simply because I know how easy he is to lynch....I've defended him because he's lynchbaity before when he was scum. :/ Suzune is easier to read for me(at least, I've been able to identify her towniness in the past...never seen her scum game, so, grain of salt), but I need more content from that head(CLEARLY LABELLED CONTENT OF SIGNIFICANCE) to pass any judgment here. In short, I haven't seen anything overtly scummy from the slot, just what appears to be standard LQ awkwardness, but that could EASILY be actual scum content.

Expe: Everyones talking about him. I should go reread his iso. He's scumreading my slot. More on this later, after I check his ISO because fuck, why do you all suspect him again? Nothing jumps out of my memory.

Luna: Luna's pretty town yo. Faction slip in PT(I did read that correctly, right? in the PT she has with stormblade, she slipped her faction? Please confirm Stormblade), and her initial posting and points/concerns regarding the whole win condition discussion(which shouldn't be ever mentioned again prior to like D4 or D5(or whenever appropriate in a game this size, I have no fucking idea actually)) seemed quite town.

Top of my head stuff, tried to touch on the people who are actually being voted for. Please engage me and point me in a specific direction for discussions/things you want my opinion on, if I missed anything important.

-Cerb

Sorry.

-Cerb

[RAM]

So, KuroiXHF ISO read. Nothing jumps out. very little in the way of content prior to the recent reads list. Some inconsistency between 1461 and 1510(he says he understands why WT isn't doing well, they're a bad player, but then votes him later on...maybe that's not wholly inconsistent, but it doesn't match the thought process I would expect. I would expect the bad player thing to be a reason to not give weight to the scummy behaviors. *shrug*), but it's not huge for the reasons given in the parenthetical...his reasoning could simply be different from my own.

I'm confused by the place Stormblade has in 1810. In 1475 KuroiXHF says "a bit of Nahdia" in response to heartless asking him about his scum reads, but puts Stormblade in the null spot. What pushed the slot up between those two points?

-Cerb

pedit: Heartless, Luna apparently faction slipped. Stormblade obviously said "Oh yeah, I'm that faction too", therefore either they're scum, or they're her faction.

[RAM]

@Cerb: my whole issue with WT is entirely Suz posts.

Oh, got it. Mmm. I'll reread? Nothing about her posts seemed notable, it was all LQ's posts that seemed weird to me.

Also @Cerb too:

Is this a reference to you slipping your faction in your neighborhood?

Everyone in the neighborhood knows that we're all either the same faction, but there might be scum in it (i read this part late), what i slipped in was my ROLE.

Oh my. Got it. I completely misunderstood this then. Okay, so what you know is that within your neighborhood all members either share the same win con, OR at least one is scum? Interesting. And weird. So you know that Stormblade absolutely *isn't* from another town aligned faction, if they are town aligned(assuming you are, of course).

-Cerb

[RAM]

I don't think there should be any more discussion about your neighborhood, unless someone in there develops cause to think someone else in there is scum.

Something I forgot to mention about Stormblade, which is relevant to this since you mentioned suspicion of him on the basis of his certain non-humanness(which, btw, isn't necessarily true, it's not impossible for there to be scum humans, but flavor wise it does seem unlikely): The rules themselves say we know NOTHING about the cult. This means we do not know if the cult can recruit non-humans or not. Paranoia about being culted IS reasonable for EVERYONE(other than cult members, of course). The other effect, the once per game recruit, is mentioned separately from that, so I assume it's an entirely different effect from whatever the cult does.

-Cerb

pedit: <3 Dram.

[RAM]

Fencesit any harder and it'll leave a dent :p

~insert Heat's Michelle Obama reaction picture here~

I don't actually know what reaction picture you're talking about. Perhaps you guys could use actual words to express your thoughts, instead of shitty reaction gifs?

That goes to all of you who keep shitposting that way. Stop it.

-Cerb

[RAM]

First off, a three-person Hydra? I just realized this. Fucking what?

Strong Town:
Lean Town: Dramonic, Almost50, Cane and Able, Tim, ASOIAF, RAM, Expedience
Null/Unsorted: Klingoncelt, Titus, Nosferatu, Stormblade, davesaz, Copper, Lady L, RB, Goofball, BBMolla, Toogeloo, Franky
Lean Scum: Heartless, Salt Squad, No Retreat , Cephrir, TWIE
Strong Scum: Wayward Thinker, Luna

BTW, just realized I'm finally playing a game with my old pal, Nero. Hi Nero!

And yes, my list is really undeveloped. I'm aware.

Sorry, but I'm not really buying that you: 1) missed Luna's claim

and

2) missed the fact there are

two

3-man hydras and still had the wherewithal to sincerely put together this reads list.

There are Actually three three man hydras. Stormblade, Salt Squad, and RAM. So, if you missed the fact that there are *3*, I'm not certain how much room you have to talk about him missing the fact that there are any. ^^

The claim miss though, that's bad. You'd think he'd have paid attention to the slot that he's most suspicious of. Thanks for giving me the thought here.

KuroiXHF: Do you suspect Luna&Co are scum pulling a complex gambit? Do you suspect Luna is the spy in that neighborhood? Or do you just have no idea what's going on with regards to her slot and just vomited out this reads list without actually paying attention to the game state?

-Cerb

[RAM]

TTH, where are you at now regarding scumspects?

-Cerb

pedit: Sorry not sorry TTH. The opening was there, I had to go for it!

ppedit: Titus: OF course it would be suicidal, but shh, you weren't supposed to tell KuroiXHF that!

[RAM]

@Dram: Why are you so involved in this game? I don't think I've ever seen you post this much this early(and it's not just BS posting either). It's weird. It makes me feel weird. :-/

Also, please elaborate on that wow.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm trying to see if plurality lynch might be a factor here.

Honestly, if things come to that on Day 1 I'm replacing out of this game.

The thought of 22 days of this is nausea inducing.

Let's lynch Kuroi.

HOLY SHIT THANK YOU NOW I REMEMBER WHO THE SOURCE OF THE KUROI PUSHING WAS!

Alright. Titus, mind linking me to where in your ISO you decided Kuroi was scum, or just reiterating that case succinctly?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Hey dram, I get you dislike the composition of the Kuroi wagon, but I'm having trouble accepting him hard scumreading someone who is like super fucking likely to be town and basically dismissing the entire context of Lunas claim claim etc.

Ignore rhe wagon composition. Where are you at on Kuroi as it specifically relates to his play?

Also, yo Fire. As was suggested to someone else who is behind, at the very least you should probably ISO the main wagons and get back to us after you do that.

-Cerb

Pedit: frozen: go away, for your own sake. You said you'd take some time away, so go do that.

[RAM]

Now I can see why Wayward isn't doing well at this game - he's not a great player.

No. it's because he's Scum.

I bet he's partners with Expedience, a side-by-side ISO is interesting...

Umm. Is this seriously where you're at in the game klingon?

-Cerb

[RAM]

For the record, FA, Dram just insulted your play, not you. It's par for the course really. Last game I played with him he spent most of it insulting thr majority of the town for not lynching his scum reads.

Anyways, my point is I would be SHOCKED(and a little outraged, actually) if anything was done to him.

Davesaz: where are you currently voting and why?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Hey dram, I get you dislike the composition of the Kuroi wagon, but I'm having trouble accepting him hard scumreading someone who is like super fucking likely to be town and basically dismissing the entire context of Lunas claim claim etc.

Ignore rhe wagon composition. Where are you at on Kuroi as it specifically relates to his play?

I wouldn't say he's dismissing as much as not addressing.
I like his votes (obviously the last one the most), I'm not concerned with his play as it stands right now. The Luna thing is off, but it's not really something that's all that incriminating to me. I don't get how he can think Luna is scum, but I don't think it's coming from scum either.

Also I know you said to ignore the wagon composition, but him and wayward are crossvoting, so it's pretty relevant to me.

Hmm. Not sure I grasp the relevance of the cross voting? Basically you're certain WT is scum, and thus you refuse to believe anyone he's voting is scum? Or do you mean something else I'm just not getting?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Meh, the wagons kinda feel like shit. Kuroi and WT both seem too fucking easy. Lemme see whose not really playing so I can see if they actually have some content to poke them about.

-Cerb

Pedit: no? I was more asking a universal thing, because unless you believe what I said (that someone who your scumread is voting won't be scum), it's not actually relevant to reading the slot, at least not without a bunch more context than JUST the fact that he's voting him.

[RAM]

It's day 1, what's wrong with a nice easy wagon to work with? Let's not over complicate and elongate what is going to be the longest most disassociating Day 1 mafia game ever.

Saga Frontier begs to differ.

Your point still stands though. The problem I have is the fact that Kuroi is like...basically just not defending himself. WT sorta defended themselves, but they're really not saying that much, but what little they say is all bad. It's an inept defense versus no defense, and idk, just doesn't feel like scum would actually just suck this badly at staying alive when there's an infinite number of other people to let the game focus on.

That's what I mean by too easy, and why it gives me pause.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Lying doggo and hoping the wagon will go away is a defense cerb.

They're not really doing that though??? Or if they are, it's so ineptly done it's just ugh. Like they've both shown up and said things, but Kuroi said some irrelevant bullshit that didn't address concerns, and WT showed up and said things that just made people more suspicious of them.

-Cerb

[RAM]

1) re:activity - I'm going to start using a notepad, because I keep skimming on my phone, not logging in to post something I'm thinking. Skimming more and then forgetting what I'm saying. I don't really have a problem keeping up, it's more I don't really want to read and then read everything again.

2) DID WT LITERALLY USE THE EXACT WORDING FOR HIS EXPE TOWNREAD THAT I DID. THE EXACT WORDS. Was that intentional?

3) Titus, I didn't realize Cerb is just against voting. I'll be using the vote how I wish, lol.

4) No Result - what is the scumslip? Not sure if you just said that and then didn't review it.

5) I really like DGB's townreads. Don't mind how they were stated. Don't like the order of the groups after the Town and Lean Town groups, but I really like the townreads. We just deserve to be there too.

6) re: current wagons. Can we do this instead? Please? I don't know how this isn't screaming scum to anyone else. I'd be more up for a rb wagon and a LLD wagon too than Kuroi.

VOTE: Copper

I think the way the Kuroi wagon started was absolute bullshit and I lean town on Kuroi. Nothing he has done has actually caught my eye as scummy. LOOK AT THE WAY HIS WAGON STARTED. LOOK AT WT's POST ABOUT HIM. Like does 1434 ACTUALLY say ANYTHING? PLEASE, look at it. It's disgusting. I don't see how that's an actual case on him at all. Is anyone actually ISO-ing him? There's nothing wrong with the posts LQ quoted?! It's like he just quoted posts and then tried to think of clever responses to them.

I get that's how LQ does it but DAMN did it really not point out anything actually scummy or of merit. How are people following this? Are there other reasons I'm missing, because I think that has to be it if this wagon has actually gotten this big.

1434 1434 1434

Do NOT skim over my #post link (this is a legit fear I have).
Every one the Kuroi wagon please read this and re-evaluate.


~ Bins

[RAM]

Spoiler: great Wt post that got things moving

In post 1434, Wayward Thinker wrote:In post 476, KuroiXHF wrote:In post 476, davesaz wrote:In post 462, KuroiXHF wrote:I can't believe we found scum before the game even began...Who did you find?I can't believe - not as in "Oh boy, I can't believe I'm going to my first baseball game!" but more as in, I can't believe in a sincere way.Super generic reasoning.In post 586, KuroiXHF wrote:VOTE: copperGoing to bed now. Prepared to wake up to 20 pages moreJust votes with no explanation then leaves. Why do this?In post 1161, KuroiXHF wrote:In post 1111, TheWayItEnds wrote:In post 1099, Salt Squad wrote:In post 1097, TheWayItEnds wrote:well this is going.someone tell me who to vote.Wayward.~Beevote: waywardcool.VOTE: TWIEYou need to die if you can't think for yourself.Says they are voting someone for not thinking of their own reasons, but hasn't once provided their reasoning on anything this game.In post 1179, KuroiXHF wrote:Fucking Nahdia.What does this accomplish?In post 1198, KuroiXHF wrote:You can read me however you like, but don't call it a bad vote when it's not, considering the early stage of day one.It clearly is a bad vote cuz your reason sucks.In post 1341, KuroiXHF wrote:In post 1326, Luna Fox wrote:Vote: AlmostI'll sheep that.God damn it. Stop sheeping and start thinking.Why is sheeping such a bad thing? Do you think Almost is Town?In post 1387, KuroiXHF wrote:*still waiting on why I'm such a good lynch to No Retreat* Or maybe he already retreated. lolHow about cuz you've done shit all game?In post 1429, KuroiXHF wrote:In post 1407, No Retreat wrote:In post 430, KuroiXHF wrote:Why are people voting? This game hasn't even started, have they?In post 457, KuroiXHF wrote:I can't believe we found scum before the game even began...I didn't much like either of these posts. I know we've talked a little about the second one but why in the world would you say that...like whats the point?You also voted TWIE for sheeping but not Luna so that's p strange. Other than that you don't really have anything. So why should I not want your head on a pike?You know I can't vote more than one person at once, right?Hardy har har.VOTE: KuroiXHF

Okay, good. I'm glad someone else noticed it.

Anyways, listen to Titus people.

[RAM]

Hi


wait why did my post post like that
ehhhHHH ok

[RAM]

If you read the collective slot over any of the specific heads posting then you should be able to still analyze the slot. To come back a few posts later and say you can't analyze that slot when you are contradicting yourself is scummy as fuck.

Fine. Lynch me!

Ewww, A50. Why?

[RAM]

I don't exactly care for Kuroi but WT's post voting him is both hypocritical and in general just feels like latching on to an easy target by throwing the kitchen sink at him (not that there's much to throw since Kuroi had basically 0 content)

Oh, okay. AD I see why you hi me.

Apparently I missed a lot of people already picking up on this. Happy about this. But this is pretty much how I feel ^

[RAM]

Wait, I know what your question is going to be.

No qualms against the wagon. I just, personally, find it super hard to scumread them. And I, again, have had huge negative reactions to other people. WT is just chillin' in my head, imo.

Less so after they FUCKIGN USED MY WORDING FOR A READ but still. LQ making a case that has 0 strength is not a scum LQ thing to do. It's an LQ thing to do. HE DOES IT IN EVERY GAME. I've already meta'd both Suzune and LQ (not for this game, just in the past). I haven't had a problem with anything else they've posted other than that one reads list but again, I don't think their shitty cases and reads is alignment indicative. ESPECIALLY in multiball. Scum isn't going to have any problem scumhunting this game. Scumhunting from scum will be natural and genuine and I'm slightly terrified of that.

Yeah, but I guess they could be scum. Not as certain, though. There was something about a direction they went in (I think townreading Expe? I can't remember) that gave me slight goodfeels about them.

It's sort of the reason I have a townread on people who are throwing out strong townreads (that I like) as opposed to strong scumreads right now. Having strong townreads is harder to fake.

pedit - called it woo

[RAM]

Sorry, I'm trying to target where your scumread on them is coming from and why I don't think that way. If I'm completely missing the point on this scumread and it isn't about the BS cases, then please correct me.

I just can't say I scumread them. Wouldn't feel right in my gut. Copper though... rb though... LLD tho...

~ Bins

[RAM]

TOWN

DrippingGooball
Salt Squad
Expedience
Luna Fox
Toogeloo
Almost50
Wayward Thinker
Titus
Heartless
Klingoncelt
Stormblade
Cane + Able

PROB TOWN

dramonic
BBMolla
KuroiXHF
Nosferatu
davesaz
Tim

UNREADABLE

Mathblade

DODGY

A Song etc.
Cephrir
No Retreat
copper223
rb

VERY DODGY

TheWayItEnds
Lady Lambdadelta

VERY CLEARLY SCUM

RAM
Franky

I have townreads on all of these townreads except for Toog (can't read yet), A50 (still not over it), WT (which is still an ok feels, not bugging me read), and Kilng (can't read).
Townreading all of the PROBTOWN as very similar as well.
Math is town, imo. Same with A Song. I sort of like No Retreat.

Everyone else I could go for as calling dodgy.

Except, well, us. Not sure if you want to explain that but you can.

tl;dr decently happy with DGB's entry and reads.

~ Bins

[RAM]

There's a 69% chance that you're getting awfully defensive with that post.

[RAM]

Damn, we both got hit by the weird site double bumphump.

<<< Don't worry, that's what a moderator's for. >>>

[RAM]

@RAM, Your recent posting is confusing to me. You're saying I should be listened to, yet not voting Kuroi and scumreading WT who I have as town. Am I seeing hydra dissonance? Explain please.

Really not scumreading Kuroi (the only reason I could get behind is his reaction is SLIGHTLY scummy) but I still can't get behind the wagon if the main reasoning is still WT's post.

I'm not scumreading WT. Literally just explained this. Are you talking about Cerb's reads? I can't really figure out where his head is at.

~ Bins


@rb - lmfao this reaction is ridiculous

[RAM]

@Titus:I noticed something in Bins posting that I pointed out to her in slack but I assume she hasn't read it yet. When she quoted your post calling WTs case on Kuroi great, I believe she thought you were being sarcastic, and mocking it...thus she believed you should be listened to because you were agreeing with her.

Pretty sure that's the thing causing the confusion in our slots recent posting.
About the whole "insisting on one own pet wagon at this stage" thing. This stage? We're like 72h in or something. Just because the thread has been bloated by 5 individuals does not chance the fact that there it's early in D1 still, and we shouldn't be bringing out the vanity wagons are anti town bullshit quite yet.

-Cerb

[RAM]

RAM is making it unnecessarily clear that they agree with most of DGB's reads while being placed at the bottom of them. Posting is fake.

I spent a few minutes trying to understand what RAM was actually saying about WT because it looked like a townread at first. And there are parts to it which really don't seem consistent or like a believable read.

pedit: ??? Wait, I was actually wrong lol?

I think the way the Kuroi wagon started was absolute bullshit and I lean town on Kuroi. Nothing he has done has actually caught my eye as scummy. LOOK AT THE WAY HIS WAGON STARTED. LOOK AT WT's POST ABOUT HIM. Like does 1434 ACTUALLY say ANYTHING? PLEASE, look at it. It's disgusting. I don't see how that's an actual case on him at all. Is anyone actually ISO-ing him? There's nothing wrong with the posts LQ quoted?! It's like he just quoted posts and then tried to think of clever responses to them.

This is writing scum motivation into LQ's actions.

I have said two times that OF COURSE I don't like her read on US. Even though I feel that should be SLIGHTLY unnecessary...


What? I'm saying that the Kuroi wagon is bad. WT just has bad reasons. Bad case doesn't mean scum and I literally just explained why scum wouldn't even need to fake a case in this game because there are multifactions.

ARE YOU READING WHAT I'M SAYING EVER

~ Bins

p-edit - My read on WT is weak. What more do you want?! I don't see myself voting for them in the near future because I want to explore other stuff. "I guess they could be scum" is literally just saying my read has holes in it and is mostly null. My read on WT is N U L L. I don't know how my post doesn't clearly explain that.

I'm saying LQ posting an empty case is not a scummy thing (in response to why I don't see what Tim is seeing in WT). Then I said that sure, I guess they could be scum. But I don't see it yet.

[RAM]

@Titus:I noticed something in Bins posting that I pointed out to her in slack but I assume she hasn't read it yet. When she quoted your post calling WTs case on Kuroi great, I believe she thought you were being sarcastic, and mocking it...thus she believed you should be listened to because you were agreeing with her.

Oh... she wasn't being sarcastic...

Damn, lmfao. That's awkward.


Changes a few things.

But yeah, sorry, not on Slack cause on mobile and about to go to work.

~ Bins

pedit - it's all been me. Cerb always signs.

[RAM]

Now lets ISO her.

hop on Exe for???

The game's too big with too many mechanics for me to comment on everything this freakin' early. Wednesday of next week is far more likely.

it doesn't take this long or shouldn't

Titus is actually very good with VCA - if she's Town.

As Scum, her analysis is a load of wank.

its a load of wank regardless of alignment :/ but nice to see you buttering up Titus here.

Plus you and I always scumread her, so I'm cutting some slack there, too.

heheh. I remember scummajiffy saying something like this once.

Whether or not Titus is scum.

but you were already town reading her.

THIS IS PROBABLY SCUM.

DID yOU POINT OUT THE SLIP?

~ Bins

[RAM]

I always sign Expedience, and Drixx hasn't yet had a chance to get into the game. At the moment, any unsigned post belongs to Bins.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Sorry, yeah. I have been checking the hydra PT. Just not this morning. I hoped on my phone on the account cause I needed to say some stuff before I forgot. Completely didn't realize you were being serious that you liked LQ's case. HOW DO YOU LIKE LQ'S CASE?!


I haven't like Stormblade's recent posts as well, is this something you're seeing as well Titus? Or is it not as recent as a thing.

~ Bins

pedit - k nero I'm serious and everyone is realizing I don't get jokes and I often read sarcasm when it isn't there

you can't say she slipped in a game with THIS MUCH SETUP SPEC and then I might happen to GLANCE over it and then expect me to NOT BE INTERESTED IN IT


but if that was the slip i don't see it lmfao

[RAM]

Funny, I haven't liked your posts either ^_~

Really? I think we just keep getting more obvtown. What don't you like?


Expe. Can you please. Read my posts. Again. If you're town?!
> I got what Tim was saying. I knew he would ask why I wasn't voting for WT. So I took HIS REASONS for voting WT and I explained to him why I didn't see them (hence the, hey! LQ is just being LQ here it is a NULL POINT).
> I then explained that I have a weak read on WT (which I think you did get). I said, sure, maybe he could be scum but also I have this other reason which sort of made him OK in my mind. While also saying nothing WT has said has pinged me.

What is bad about it?!

[RAM]

@RAM, What's not to like? Everything they said at the time was true.

Oh, just noticed a slight tone change that weirded me out a bit. I thought you were saying you saw something as well, but I guess I again interpret things wrong.

I'd still put Nadhia as Lean Town, though. Just growing paranoia solely due to tone.

[RAM]

@RAM, What's not to like? Everything they said at the time was true.

Oh, just noticed a slight tone change that weirded me out a bit. I thought you were saying you saw something as well, but I guess I again interpret things wrong.

I'd still put Nadhia as Lean Town, though. Just growing paranoia solely due to tone.

Oh, wait. Who are you talking about?

Lmfao, nevermind me I don't know what Titus is saying again.

[RAM]

i don't feel the need to rank-order all of my other preferences, for now i'm just going to say this.

heartless
mathblade
song
luna
expe
molla
to a lesser extent LLD, titus and tim

barring something im not thinking of right now, i'll lynch anyone who's not on this list. so STOP TALKING SO MUCH and MAKE IT HAPPEN

do

c o p p e r
!
!
!



also like

RB's reaction tho?
anyone expecting that? don't know how to read it

[RAM]

@RAM, What's not to like? Everything they said at the time was true.

Oh, just noticed a slight tone change that weirded me out a bit. I thought you were saying you saw something as well, but I guess I again interpret things wrong.

I'd still put Nadhia as Lean Town, though. Just growing paranoia solely due to tone.

Oh, wait. Who are you talking about?

Lmfao, nevermind me I don't know what Titus is saying again.

The case the LQ head of WT made on Kuroi.

Oooooooh, okay.

Okay because I was like "wait you really like Stormblade?!" and was confused because I didn't think that was what you were saying.

I just thought the case was super duper empty.

[RAM]

ok I got to go to work if I come back and people are happy pushing Copper and continue to tell Expedience he's making no sense and maybe comment on this rb reaction

I'll be a super duper happy camper.

~ Bins

[RAM]

Purely gut.

I accept this a lot more than Expe's BS. Thank you.

And ditto, gurl.

[RAM]

Hey @RAM, are you going to make a case any further than "rb though..." because if not stfu and do something useful.

lmfao

1) cases are so not my style it's all about calling out BS and vibe in the moment. that's pretty much the reason drixx and cerb wanted to hydra with me.
2) jesus i normally townread defensiveness but this is unnatural. i haven't even PUSHED you yet (i've literally just said "rb tho..." and youre right, haven't given reasons), but you're acting like this? why?? i have literally posed no threat to you AT ALL except for saying my read on you. yet this. what?!

~ Bins

[RAM]

The capitalized words on RAM's posts are deliberately placed and so the tone feels forced.

omg honestly just go away at this point

[RAM]

o before i sign off i should say bins head will be

VLA Friday morning to Sunday night

going to go visit the bulge ((((((((((((((((((:

[RAM]

Hey @RAM, are you going to make a case any further than "rb though..." because if not stfu and do something useful.

lmfao

1) cases are so not my style it's all about calling out BS and vibe in the moment. that's pretty much the reason drixx and cerb wanted to hydra with me.
2) jesus i normally townread defensiveness but this is unnatural. i haven't even PUSHED you yet (i've literally just said "rb tho..." and youre right, haven't given reasons), but you're acting like this? why?? i have literally posed no threat to you AT ALL except for saying my read on you. yet this. what?!

~ Bins

So where's the posts containing the BS and "vibe" that you saw?

Did you want my starsign next, will that help you determine which "vibe" I should be giving off?

u just aint a towny vibe guy

i'll take the day u were born and the hour of birth too

youre like OMGUSing me without the vote which is 169% scummier than OMGUS with the vote


chill out

copper is my main focus rn don't make me switch to you because you're being ridiculously defensive about me saying rb is scum



pedit - it's obv not real titus he just did it cause i didn't see the "slip" that he quoted
even tho it wasn't a slip ahem

[RAM]

Actually you know what, do it. Switch to me. Get off copper and switch to me right now and do your best to frame me as scum. Gogogo.

They can't do it this post is just too town

jesus no this post is the opposite of town i would actually switch to them if the copper wagon wasn't starting

how is this reaction town at all? it's fake as fuck

my case on rb wasn't that strong that's why i picked copper instead but this reaction is honestly making it 169% worse for you

negging or whatever the fuck this is is not a town response
it's what scum do to make it seem like they aren't afraid
but clearly rb has some sort of problem with keeping his cool

Actually you know what, do it. Switch to me. Get off copper and switch to me right now and do your best to frame me as scum. Gogogo.

Did some rival cowboy shoot you in the butt last night?

Why so drama heavy now?

^ ty

~ bins

[RAM]

What people call "overdefensivenes" is usually a towntell.

omg

expe

read my posts dont you just
DO IT
FOR ONCE THIS GAME

i literally said overdefensiveness is normally a towntell to me


but the thing is i didnt even PUSH rb
i just poked his name
and yet he's doing the fake "vote me then i AINT SCARED" bs

[RAM]

See RAM? You CAN do it!

You just looked at a post of mine and made an assessment of it. You didn't refer back to some pathetic concept of "vibes" - you took a post I made, and you actually made salient points about it.

Keep going please.

ok

vibes, interactions, whatever

this is how i read you

it isn't going to be a case
it's going to be me looking at this reaction of yours and going "wtf" because it deserves a "wtf"

[RAM]

Omg no don't pussy out now RAM, this was just getting good.

the copper wagon is also getting good


jesus


when you start acting all confident and somehow act like you know more than me (dgb's reads, my alignment for certain) THAT'S weird af
do you think we're scum? because first your reaction was "tell me your scumbuddies" but then you backed out of that one
now it's this weird coaching thing? all of it seems forced and like you're again trying to not act afraid

[RAM]

like idk how it wasn't clear to you that from my vote, the amount of times i mentioned it

that copper is my strongest scumread and i have hated every post from him

and then you get all super defensive

don't you think it'd be
you know
super antitown to ask me to vote you and to stray away from who i really really think is scum here? you can't seriously be being geniune right now?

[RAM]

RAM agreed with NBG's read list which included Klingon as strong town.

i also said right underneath that klingon was a nullread to me

k thanks

idk cerb might have pointed something out tho




also how the fuck
is saying both Kuroi and WT are town
and then going for copper, you and LLD opportunistic?!

how can you call copper lynchbait and seriously how is LLD an opportunistic vote!?

what?!

you're making less sense than expe

[RAM]

Vote: RAM

luna i'm town >_>

[RAM]

The fact that you're seemingly incapable of providing even basic reasons for my scumminess outside of, "lol you're defensive" and "you're omgus'ing me!" when I'm doing neither of those two things just screams scum to me.

also I CAN provide basic reasoning for your scumminess

you already said that i have and my response to your reaction was legit


dude i never TRIED to actually make a case on you cause you werent even my focus
until you started sceraming about my scumbuddies and how something something no case something somehting ur useless

copper wagon is better

[RAM]

i'm less upset about the luna vote
more upset that she can actual buy into whatever the heck rb is saying

pedit - LUNA I DONT HAVE KLINGON AS TOWN
I QUOTED DGB's READ LIST YES
BUT RIGHT UNDER I SAID
"hey but i dont agree with the kling read"

[RAM]

TOWN

DrippingGooball
Salt Squad
Expedience
Luna Fox
Toogeloo
Almost50
Wayward Thinker
Titus
Heartless
Klingoncelt
Stormblade
Cane + Able

PROB TOWN

dramonic
BBMolla
KuroiXHF
Nosferatu
davesaz
Tim

UNREADABLE

Mathblade

DODGY

A Song etc.
Cephrir
No Retreat
copper223
rb

VERY DODGY

TheWayItEnds
Lady Lambdadelta

VERY CLEARLY SCUM

RAM
Franky

I have townreads on all of these townreads except for Toog (can't read yet), A50 (still not over it), WT (which is still an ok feels, not bugging me read),

and Kilng (can't read).

Townreading all of the PROBTOWN as very similar as well.
Math is town, imo. Same with A Song. I sort of like No Retreat.

Everyone else I could go for as calling dodgy.

Except, well, us. Not sure if you want to explain that but you can.

tl;dr decently happy with DGB's entry and reads.

~ Bins

[RAM]

RAM agreed with NBG's read list which included Klingon as strong town.

also how the fuck
is saying both Kuroi and WT are town
and then going for copper, you and LLD opportunistic?!

how can you call copper lynchbait and seriously how is LLD an opportunistic vote!?

what?!

you're making less sense than expe

Because I see no reasoning as to why you' see both Kuroi and WT as town. You're not providing reasons. Scum looking for towncred imo.

Also the main targets for your own wagon are people who'd be easy targets in their own right. Opportunistic.

omg ok they aren't strong townreads
i literally mean i dont see the reasoning for why they are scum
that's what i meant

and i've already explained
both of these

[RAM]

Also the main targets for your own wagon are people who'd be easy targets in their own right. Opportunistic.

LLD IS AN EASY TARGET?!

COPPER IS JUST SCUM?!

what?!?

how can you honestly be defending both copper and LLD rn (arguing against their wagons)
the fact youre notyou know legit thinking that they could be scum
how can you know that theyre town


when im efending kuroi and WT and thats supposedly more wtf?!?!
like im doing very similar bt i actually have a basis



THIS GAME

[RAM]

@RAM

Cool. So let's get this straight.

When RAM says:

"I strongly townread X person"

RAM actually means:

"I don't see the reasoning for why X person is scum"

?

And you wonder why I have trouble interpreting your posts

when did i ever say i strongly townread either WT or kuroi.........


i have a mild VERY null mild townread on both of them
enough that i'm uncomfortable with their lynches

kuroi i also have a problem with his wagon which i have explained
WT i have already explained why i dont see them as scum like most people do




titus idk he hasn't said anything in PT

[RAM]

Also I skimmed her ISO in BLOODBORNE MAFIA and she had good tone, so there goes the only reservation I had about the slot.

Okay. So let me get this straight. You ISO'd Klingon for tone, but you didn't bother to ISO me when you claimed I was using CAPS too much to look fake? Or you know using a too emotion heavy tone? Two things you had valid reason to meta me for... but you didn't? YOU CAN EASILY CHECK MY META AND SEE HOW WRONG YOU ARE. Everything you're saying is something I do as toooooooown.

This is ridonkculous, Expe. I can't believe you argued I was scum because of CAPS still. Then you ISO someone else's game, but you didn't both to see how stupid you were being about me.

@Copper — what's with the total 180 read on us?

~ Bins

[RAM]

town

Heartless (Antihero + TellTaleHeart)
dramonic
Almost50
Mathblade
Lady Lambdadelta
Expedience

scum

KuroiXHF
Klingoncelt
Stormblade (Albert B. Rampage + Errantparabola + Nahdia)
davesaz
Cane + Able (House + Wake88)
Tim (Iecerint + ActionDan)
rb
Cephrir
Luna Fox
BBMolla

and everyone else is null or I don't remember anything they've done

You know what's weird about this list?

Wayward Thinker isn't on it.

Now as much as I've been connecting WT to Expedience, you'd think No Retreat would have read up on that hydra to find more bad excuses to "scumread" me.

Yep, there's no way Nero could have reads on me and Expedience without a read on WT...

Hmm...

Don't think Nero would of forgotten WT if WT was his buddy. Is that what you're implying? I'm not really sure what you're implying.

[RAM]

I don't exactly care for Kuroi but WT's post voting him is both hypocritical and in general just feels like latching on to an easy target by throwing the kitchen sink at him (not that there's much to throw since Kuroi had basically 0 content)

Oh, okay. AD I see why you hi me.

Apparently I missed a lot of people already picking up on this. Happy about this. But this is pretty much how I feel ^

Because there's no point in me arguing the same point over and over again and them responding the same way. It's like hitting a brick wall with nails trying to punch a hole in it.

The "said contradiction" is not a contradiction at all. Like; here's a run down of all hydras in this game (minus the one that has been dissolved):

Spoiler:

Antihero + TellTaleHeart:

One finished game with Anti, no previous experience with Tell. It doesn't matter to me which of them is posting because I have no scum/town tells of either. It's what they say and how they say it regardless.

SirCakez + beeboy + Heat:

One finished game with Heat, several with each of SC & beeboy. Will have to pay attention to what they say no matter which of them is posting to get a read, as there are no special traits known to ME about their scum/town play. Either of them, actually, but I feel like I can -maybe- read beeboy more on tone.

ABR + EP + Nahdia:

2 finished games with Nahdia (one of each alignment) and I don't see a difference in her play as either alignment. 1 finished game with EP where I was scum and thought he was on the other scum team, and one finished with ABR where we were on eachother's throats on D1 before we became best friends and totally trusted eachother. (I know you know the details here, but I'm writing for everyone else as well).

Iecerint + ActionDan:

Never played with either, so I have no meta to judge by.

Nero Cain + Yume:

2 or 3 finished games with Nero, probably one with Yume (and I don't even remember which one). However, me and Nero are always head-butting even if we were both town (never seen his scum game, and neither did he see mine although he might argue differently).

Frozen + Fire:

Many finished game with each, and I even have a history with Frozen that extends before I joined MS, so I have no problem getting a read on either of them (sometimes I'm off, but then things work themselves out later on). Doesn't matter who's posting.

Bins + Drixx + Cerberus v666:

I don't even recognize the name of Bins, never played with Drixx, and have 2 finished games with Cerb in which he was town and died relatively early. Again I will have to rely on what's being said rather than who said it.

Now the ONLY exception to the general rule would be regarding the

LQ + Suzune

hydra, bc I have no finished games with LQ but I did see Suzune as both alignments and believe her to be relatively easier for me to read than LQ. That's and EXCEPTION, not a CONTRADICTION.

Uh. Okay, this might just be me being dumb again, but what the hell are you talking about? Like what is this in response to? The quoted post? I don't see how this has anything to do with what I was saying? But then you said something later that makes me assume you aren't trying to tell me this... so uh, why?

Or were you responding to someone else and just using my post as reference on how you thought Cerb said that?

Just a lil' confused.

~ Bins

[RAM]

Okay, I did some ISO-ing.

Kuroi is still not giving me anything.

[RAM]

These two things conflict. You say you know that these three people are Scum, which is lawl, cuz I think we are all town, but before that you say "don't expect to be impressed before day 3." So either your reads are shit here and you are telling the truth about having a good game by day 3 or you're reads are right (but they aren't) and you are impressing us right now with your for sure scum reads day 1. So which is it? Should we trust your Scum reads now or are these reads shit now?

You're right.

I usually can't get it together until Day 3.

But once in a while, it's like it was handed to me on a silver platter.

You, Expedience, and No Retreat have interacted as a team. A Scum team.

I am 100% sure of this.

You guys here that? She's 100% sure.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

I want this dead more than anything right now.

I hate this post more than anything right now.

VOTE: Wayward Thinker

I finally feel something from this slot and it is... not good. This wagon composition/formation is also a lot better than the Kuroi wagon.

[RAM]

I have changed my mind on Kuroi and Expedience. I still have Kuroi on my Scum list, but

he''s not paired with Expedience, WT, and No Retreat.

He's on a different team.

Kuroi still looks like the counterwagon to Wayward.

VOTE: Vote: Wayward Thinker[/vote ]

this

And how the fuck can you have Kuroi on your scum list if you're saying this?

You're just making it up as you go along.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

I really wonder what goes on in that head of yours.

I wonder for you too. Please share with the class.

scum can form a counterwagon on another scum without knowing? The important thing is that they're not lynching one of their buddies? Fucking incredible notion amirite?

Also gets super fucky with association tells and buddying and bussing. Which is exciting.

[RAM]

You could probably convince me to vote Expe too now, lmfao. The "out there" argument in my head is no longer holding up to justify bad logic.

But I'll save that for later, my VLA starts soon.

[RAM]

Klingon : I believe 2804 is correct, and you never made any post connecting Expedience to Kuroi. What do you mean when you say you changed your mind about them, given that you had never shared an opinion regarding a connection between those slots?

-Cerb

[RAM]

This post almost reads as sarcastic, that's how fake it is.

I cbf checking meta usually but in Klingoncelt's case it conflicted with my other read. Why do you care still?

Obviously the capitalization wasn't the main thing, but at the time really that was the best way I could explain it. The fact that you latch onto that clearly weak reason is also telling.

I latch on to it because I'm super frustrated with you thinking you have a legit reason to have a scumread on me. You could say "gut" and I would be fine. And I would accept and then just be like "Okay, his gut sucks." but instead you wish-wash and try to find reasons and have elaborate ways of explaining the inflections in my posting that don't exist.

[RAM]

Mathblade: where did you get the idea that KC was connecting Kuroi and Expedience? I looked at her ISO and didn't see any sign of that....

-Cerb

[RAM]

Math is right about the 5 factions, that is obviously the case and RB gets scum points for trying to cast doubt on it.

@Expe
So you are saying she has good tone as scum?

What I am getting is that rude Kling is more likely to be town Kling, that is likely what she means about Titus lying about her meta.

RB? Do you mean no retreat? If not please explain?

Pedit:

Ram I confused pronouns explained in 2815.

Cool. You're in the clear then. Still doesn't make sense that KC would agree with you about something she didn't even say.

I know you have her as scum already, but do you think that's a reasonable thing to be concerned about, or is it something easily explained?

-Cerb

[RAM]

You say KC was connecting Expe and Kuroi. She wasn't. Instead of correcting you, she agrees that at one point she was connecting those two, but has since changed her mind.

That inconsistency /contradiction concerns me....like Expe said, it's as though she's not actually holding these reads, and so just went with what you said, even though it wasn't true.

-Cern

[RAM]

Like my first thought was that perhaps you and KC were scum together, and in your PT she had said something about that connection but you hadnt realized she never said it in the main thread, thus why I was specifically questioning you about it. Your answer was acceptable, so it means just KC looks suspicious for that particular interaction.

Now I'm asking you(and anyone else, really)to look at that and tell me if you think that's actually cause for suspicion or if I'm blowing it out of proportion.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

-Cerb

[RAM]

No Retreat, Nosferatu: 2852/2854?

-Cerb

Pedit: thanks Tim. No stealing required, it's aimed at everyone. I usually sorta muddle along through D1 cause it's difficult to find things that I can't as easily explain as town behavior as I can call them scum behaviors, but this inconsistency is a problem for me.

[RAM]

Just read 2852 and 2854 Ceph.

-Cerb

Pedit: what does that mean Titus? :/

[RAM]

Titus: I don't understand why you're assuming a connection between Kuroi and KC. I think their actions are independently questionable, but nothing really links them together imo.

No retreat: this isn't a matter of KC making a typo though? Mathblade said she connected two slots she NEVER connected, and she was just like "oh yeah, but I changed my mind since then and I believe this now instead".

-Cerb

[RAM]

You say KC was connecting Expe and Kuroi. She wasn't. Instead of correcting you, she agrees that at one point she was connecting those two, but has since changed her mind.

That inconsistency /contradiction concerns me....like Expe said, it's as though she's not actually holding these reads, and so just went with what you said, even though it wasn't true.

-Cern

Ahhh now I understand the question. KlingonCelt's positions do concern me as I explained earlier I find their reads wholly inconsistent and impossible. See post 2818.

I need more votes

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

I'm just going to steal this.

It's actually really concerning. I checked myself to see if there was ever a time Kuroi was mentioned by Celt and in what context. And there was never a single one. I suppose it could be possible that Kuroi being a scum read was one of those internal reads that you sort of hold to yourself, but even if so, Celt did not correct what looks like an inconsistency when it was directly pointed out. So yeah, it seems to me she muddled her (fake) reads

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

I'm just going to steal this.

It's actually really concerning. I checked myself to see if there was ever a time Kuroi was mentioned by Celt and in what context. And there was never a single one. I suppose it could be possible that Kuroi being a scum read was one of those internal reads that you sort of hold to yourself, but even if so, Celt did not correct what looks like an inconsistency when it was directly pointed out. So yeah, it seems to me she muddled her (fake) reads

titcr.

Why were you assuming 5 factions?

@RAM I'm already scumreading Celt but I will say that I've but thinking one thing and mistyped. I did it in this game when talking about Almost but typed PV.

@ram

ok i agree with you and think kling is scum anyways

That's certainly enough to make me sure I'm not just being crazy and flipping out over nothing.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

If I can vote KC, the rest of you certainly can.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm not really liking the quote wall routine Kuroi's doing right now.

It's one thing if you're pulling quotes to support a specific read, but quoting something and then making a cute comment just looks like busy work to me.

QFT.

sometimes a scum is just a scum

Excellent addition. Who are my scum buddies?

BTW, what's your paypal account? I kind of think it's rude to not pay someone for a psychic reading.

Nahdia, Titus: Remember Newbie 1710? Remember the part where Zyf said this exact same thing? This is what I said then, and it still applies here.

so if i'm somehow scum, who exactly is my buddy?

Interestingly enough, I always find this particularly comment to be moderately scummy. It's a useless question, asking for preflip associatives, and it's purely done to discredit whoever is suspicious of you. Rather than pointing to how you're town, you attempt to distract by pointing at how you don't have strong associatives with any scummy slot.

Still haven't read.

With that said, I still want pressure on KC.

No Retreat: Why are you refusing to vote KC while simultaneously making sure everyone who stops by is well aware of why they should be voting for KC? :-/

-Cerb

[RAM]

Where are you at on KC then dram?

How about you Kuroi, what are your thoughts on the KC stuff that's gone on in the last couple pages?

Also, dram, <3. It's touching that you'd rather keep me around than not, but you don't need to treat me with kid gloves. If you think I'm scum you should probably do something about it. Not pushing someone who I liked on a personal level(even arguing to defend them) just fucked me over in Bloodborne, and ALMOST fucked me over in A Musical Mafia(only saved because of an unnecessary BP claim by plot/nacho) so, yeah. No room for letting scumminess slide on the basis of enjoying playing with someone.

Same kinda goes out to you Heartless. Hell, it goes out to you even more, because you have a much longer list that you've noted than dram does.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm not ignoring you, but what really gives me the jeebies on your slot is mostly Bins stuff, and I have had poor results on reading Bins in the past *coughfakecopguiltycough*
I'm on the fence IRT KC. She is completely disconnected from the game, her reasoning on Expe and NR is trash and she seems delusional based on the whole "X, Y and Z are scum, follow me to the promised land!" posts. The bravado is town, the content is scum. I wouldn't fight her death, but I'm not gonna push it over WT.

This post brought to you by Fensofas, number 1 provider in chairs and fences this side of the Atlantic.

Well, at least your fence has reasons.

Has Drixx ever posted?

Nope. He's had a long list of shit come up over the last few days, last I heard from him was him being like "OMG 77 pages"...and obviously that was awhile back. No idea how caught up he is now, if at all, since he hasn't left any notes in our slack channel or anything to indicate he's even found the time to read.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Hey Luna, you said something earlier which I'm certain was at least somewhat a typo, but please clarify:

Yeah, while i think it's bad, the sudden surge of votes is giving me a bad feeling and i'd think short of scumslipping that usually shouldn't be happening.
Don't think it makes Klingon town since it's multiball, but im currently more comfortable with Kuroi as scum.

I think Klingon's being pretty strongly pushed at the very least by someone on the same faction as Kuroi or someone in the same faction as Kuroi took the chance to generate ghe wagon, and more data isnt bad.

Did you mean that you don't think it's bad? Or do you mean something else?

Also, the points raised about how wagons won't be clean is accurate...plus KC legitimately did a scummy as fuck sure as hell looks like a mistake scum could easily make thing. So...yeah. I don't get the wagon speed argument(because that's essentially what you're saying) when it has in fact been spurred on by what is, if not a perfect scum slip, something quite similar to one.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Unfortunately that's pretty subjective.

Stop trying to be a mafia purist and understand that different mentalities play this game.[snip]

Now the question becomes, with this information, are you going to just mope around and berate my play, or are you going to do something constructive with it?

I'm not being a mafia purist, but "If I'm the cause of this loss I'll never play again" on D1 is a dumb statement.

Nobody ever thinks they're the reason the town lost.

And whatever you think I can do with your claim, you'll be the last person to be informed

Untrue. I always think I'm the reason town lost. Go read my post games from basically any game where I was town and lost. It's all me going on and on about how I fucked up and lost the game for town.

Anyways.

Kuroi, I saw RC catch FA once for using a specific phrase in a game, HOWEVER, it wasn't the phrase you're harping on about. I still don't even know if that phrase was actually a legitimate tell he had on her, or if it was just bullshit. *shrug*.

Anyways, I dove through a toxic as fuck game, the ISO's of both RC and FA in that game, just to determine that it wasn't the same phrase. So. Yeah.

-Cerb

[RAM]

None of this is relevant to finding scum. And you're all probably wrong. And it legitimately doesn't matter right now.

Stop it.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Frozen, why aren't you voting Kuroi if your partner has already agreed with your reasoning?

KC, your response to the concerns about you wasn't great, but apparently, in spite of agreeing thst you've done scummy shit, nobody cares enough to actually vote you.

Wake: when someone is your strongest scum read, YES, it is absolutely surprising and suspicious for you to miss any of their posts, ESPECIALLY a claim. As a suspect, you should be reading their posts carefully to determine whether you're right or wrong in your suspicions, not wholly missing important claims.

VOTE: KuroiXHF

-Cerb

[RAM]

You're right I'm crazy! I didn't remember seeing you in the VCs at all.

-Cerb

[RAM]

@Mastin: how long until Franky gets prodded?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Holy shit LLD.

Stop wasting posts with completely unnecessary bullshit. Just...stop. Go away if you're not going to play, and all you can do is bitch about nobody holding your fucking hand, and then show up talking about absolutely worthless shit.

Or else play the fucking game and be useful.
Seriously, is this the best content you can muster?
-Cerb

[RAM]

Yes, because someone who's been on site for less than a year has ANY fucking clue that this is a thing.

If you have a problem with it, pm the fucking mod, don't shit in my thread with your inanities, ESPECIALLY when you can't be bothered to actually play the game normally.

You spend days doing nothing, and then choose to waste your time on this?

I can't begin to express how much I loathe play like yours.

-Cerb

Pedit: Nahdia, no. I'm sorry, but this enrages me. Someone actively looking for a mod kill on what is OBVIOUSLY a nothing post instead of actually playing? No. Not okay.

[RAM]

I'm.a hydra LLD, almost all of those posts you quoted were from my partner. One of them was me making formatting easier to read in a content heavy post. Another was me telling the game to get back on track (as I'm doing to you), and the third was me missing that the mod had already prodded the only slot that has done less in this game then you.

I'm glad you had the time to go through my iso for that though. Maybe you can put that time towards scumhunting in the future?

-Cerb

Pedit: technically, it's EVERYONE'S game, since without any one of us it doesn't function as intended. We all have an obligation towards everyone else who has decided to put time into playing to actually respect the game and the effort put forth by all parties, not deliberately waste it by not participating.

[RAM]

Nahdia, I didn't (and don't) care. I felt LLD needed to know her behavior was unacceptable, and told her so in moderately strong terms.

On the plus side, at least she's actually responding to posts made in this game, so hey, upside!

In any case, I don't actually think there's anything I could actually respond to in her last post, so.....not much more to say here.

-Cerb

[RAM]

And you're welcome to hold that opinion. I don't actually have any opinion of you at all(as I shouldn't, since I don't actually know you) I just believe your play here is terrible.

I would appreciate if you would avoid personal attacks though. Attack my play all you like, but don't attack me. Thanks.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Hey Toogeloo, I know you're not really following the game fully, but do you have any thoughts on anything that's happened recently?(excluding this snafu with LLD, of course)

-Cerb

[RAM]

In the latest games I've played cerb is unbearable (and more importantly town the last time), is he like this as scum as well?

Define unbearable? I believe the only people in this game who have seen me as scum(unless you count my 3p play in Saga Frontier as scum) are Heartless and Cephrir. Oh, and the Sir Cakez head of Salt Squad.

-Cerb

[RAM]

In both games your focus is on judging others for how bad you think they are (the other time you self voted and said town deserved to lose), now my fellow player your job, assuming town, is to ferret out the alignment of the rest of us and get us to agree to vote for likely scum, critiques about our performance that are not AI actually work against your wincon because they create a barrier towards working together.

I can understand frustration when you think someone misplayed, but you are going above and beyond, you also don't appear to consider how bad this makes your play in return (+ points to my fellow neighb. Nahdia).

TLDR: please look and discuss about AI relevant points, you can give advice or say where you think someone misplayed in the post game phase.

Umm. I have never self voted. Not once(I'm pretty damn sure? Maybe an exception for a scenario where I knew the best case for town was if I wasn't allowed into Lylo?). And town probably did deserve to lose. *shrug*

And sure, that is an accurate description of my job, but it certainly doesn't mean I can't tell people they need to either shit or get off the pot.

Meh. All irrelevant, you're right about that.

Scornful commentary on(particularly) people who signed up for a large game and then restrict their content to flailing helplessly about the post count is something I always do, but more vocally than in the past.

Being THIS vocal and abrasive about it is unusual though, and it was brought on by the incredibly inane question LLD decided to ask (about a rule which ISN'T EVEN IN THE SITE RULES ANYMORE) in lieu of playing.

-Cerb

[RAM]

LLD never voted him, so he should be at L-1 right now

Luna is correct. The problem I have is that his claim is basically the optimal claim to make as scum to keep town from lynching you on D1, in a game this size at least. It's reasonably safe to assume multiple protectives and investigatives(well, multiple investigatives are guaranteed, basically), so nobody is going to counterclaim you, and you can easily coast on that claim for a good while.

-Cerb

[RAM]

My first thought was okay, how about we just test his race copping at least, and have him go after someone and get confirmation, but....first of all, that would expose more information to scum for no reason, and second, given the recruit mechanic, I assume all factions capable of recruiting have a race cop, so if he is scum, he might very well be a race cop (or a doctor, actually, cause multi- ball), and if not he should be able to just have his teammate perform the cop for him while he reports the results.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Wake, it's ABSOLUTELY optimal for not getting lynched D1. It isn't optimal for late game survival, but I don't really know what claim would be both.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Like the very fact that he has gained himself advocates off the claim means the pool of people willing to hammer him has become smaller, AND he can count on you to be around to defend him when he isn't here.

Seems like a pretty good way to survive D1 in spite of craptastic scumposting.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm a doctor from the North. Human for what it's worth.

I have no idea all this information. It doesn't show my name on here.

The location is other, and it also says I'm a racial checker. I also didn't select any kind of cop.

He's a racial checker.

If you check the first post, it says everyone chooses between nation and location, EXCEPT for some slots which have a different check they can perform. Race is one of those alternatives.

-Cerb

[RAM]

From post 3:

Players may choose to check a player and will learn whichever fact they chose. The options are
Checking what nation a player hails from
Checking what location a player hails from
This action counts for all role purposes, as a visit and can be blocked/fail. This is why the game cannot begin until every player has confirmed, both in-thread and via PM.

Some players have variants on this power

. They are
Free-checker (can choose either nation or location the entire game)
Full free-checker (can choose nation, location, or race the entire game)
Racial checker (can only check race)
Full checker (gets all of nation, location, and race)
Checks resolve last in action resolution.

-Cerb

[RAM]

...when your response to the heat doesn't scream town, you don't get to just shift the spotlight somewhere else.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Dram, what would you do if WT had made this EXACT claim that Kuroi made?

Just let him off?

I find it incredibly implausible that you would even care about his claim.

Why should we let Kuroi off on the basis of this, when everything he's done makes me, at least, believe he's scum?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Okay. Skimmed up.

I want to say that the Individual Vampires/Individual [maybe others that exist] are town-ish. They have a wincon that is worded very similar/the same as the town (we know are the Northern Tribes... West Empire... etc) wincon. I don't think a scum wincon is "You win when all threats to the Individual Vampires are eliminated." The wincon isn't scum. They don't have to hold a majority. They have to eliminate the "threats" and I think these are the same threats the town are after. The reason they have a [Factional] is the "-ish" part. That's the only part I'm not sure about. I'm assuming that's the recruit but again the fact it's worded as "Factional" is the only part that bugs me. Like I guess it could be a Factional Town Recruit? This is my only iffy-ness. There's obviously something the Individual Vampires have that we don't know, but I think they win with us.

I legit believe the Individual Wuldan are town as well. I feel that this whole "your enemies may be your allies" Mastina is blowing around is making me think every scum faction has town counterparts.

But.

I believe SS is town because 1) if they were scum they would of at least used a fakeclaim that matched 2) I'm not ruling out the possibility an investigation got fucked with 3) this reaction is town 4) if there isn't doubt already and I said above I think Kuroi was town-ISH. His wincon looks town.

I believe LLD is scum. I think she's claiming Individual Wuldan because that's her GIVEN FAKECLAIM and she's using it. This is mostly because I have been scumreading LLD and I just think she is given the opportunity to hide behind a fakeclaim. I don't think she fully understands her fakeclaim. Which is why she's being like... this... about it. The funny thing is most people still think that the fakeclaims or claim SS and LLD have are scum but they're not. Individual ______ sound town and I think are town.

VOTE: LLD

Now. Dram. I have no fucking idea what he is (was RIP). But I'm assuming because his wincon is like the one LLD is fakeclaiming, I think he was a counterpart to a scum faction that exists at well.

I still have no idea about the Cult.


Anyways, that's where I'm at.

[RAM]

I could be completely wrong, but this is where I'm at. I feel like I have so little info compared to most people, but with the aid of flavour and flipped wincons I think I can peace together who is on my side.

[RAM]

Alright! So, first, I have a very serious question:

HOW ARE YOU ALL SO FUCKING OBTUSE?????(Except for like, mathblade, and Nahdia...nobody else sees to fucking get it)

You have FOUR role PM's to look at, PLUS YOUR OWN, and the mods word saying that town factions eliminate all threats to them, and scum factions are trying to control the vote, and you SOMEHOW DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT A TOWN WIN CON WOULD LOOK LIKE?

Yes, members/a specific member of <town faction A> may be a threat to <town faction b> and so on, BUT THEY'RE NOT SCUM.

The part of everyone's PM that is aligned is the removal of those scum aligned slots, the ones trying to control the vote. The priority is removing fucking scum, not removing people who are obviously fucking town aligned based on their win condition claims, but might need to be removed for YOUR specific faction to win.

With that said.

We have two notable investigate results? One from <unknown member of luna's neighborhood> on SS, saying he is one faction, which he says he is not, and one from SS, on LLD, saying she is a wulden(and we know wulden is a generally anti-town race if we accept that the Luna/Stormblade/Copper 'hood is town, because they have been warned that there may be wuldens in there...clear implication is that wuldens are anti-town), but she says she's an individual wulden who wins with the town.

The entirety of the SS situation doesn't make sense. All Luna mentioned was SS' faction, which in and of itself doesn't mean anything because we don't know what the scum factions name(s) is(are). It literally makes no sense for scum!SS to claim the results on him must have been false, when the faction name alone isn't ACTUALLY a guilty. I'm inclined to believe he is actually this individual vampire faction simply because I'm going to attribute a base level of competence to their slot, and assume they wouldn't put themselves in a position where they're "caught" by a faction cop AFTER they've already heard the result, and the result wasn't an outright guilty.

Now, with that said, that brings up somethings that needs resolution: Luna, you asked SS how they would feel if you said your faction cop was "strong willed"...and then later on you said either he's lying or you had an unlucky redirect. The implication of strong willed is that the slot in question was empowered or otherwise guaranteed to have their actions resolve on their target. If that was the case, then there was no possibility of an unlucky redirect.

Which is it? Was there possibly a redirect, or is it CERTAIN beyond any doubt that this individual received SS' faction information?

For LLD: I don't think being wulden makes her automatically scum, BUT I do think the wuldens are generally scum aligned, based on the information given to us by Stormblade and their relation to their PT. This means that if she is scum, it makes perfect sense for her to claim "individual wulden" for her faction. Basically, her result is semi-null to me. Not impossible that she's an individual, but if she's scum, what she's done is exactly what she HAD to do as scum.

-Cerb

pedit: Ninja'd by Bins.

[RAM]

The key, FA, is that in all those win cons, and in the moderators actual information, they used the verbiage "eliminate all threats". That verbiage=town, period, as i see it.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Also I'm pretty sure the "Town" WinCon is the one that says you win with the Individual Humans, regardless of your race.

All Individual Human factioners please vote Salt Squad.

The fact you honestly believe this and then later work up to fill in info that there are only two town factions makes me think that 1) you honestly believe this because being Individual human is all you know 2) you don't have a lot of info to work with and 3) you sort of haven't been reading (to know that the West Empire, Northern Tribes, etc are the town factions).

But that's okay, I think you just confirmed yourself as town like BBMolla did.

~ The other posts except the last one were Bins, m'bad.

[RAM]

Wow Cerb and I didn't even talk about this but we said the same thing HYDRA POWER ON THE SAME PAGE WOOOOO. NO DISSONANCE HERE.

[RAM]

two of them are critically suspicious and have a redacted part. how on earth would you call one town with no info , just based on those suspicious powerful roles and the similarity of their wincon wording?

I think SS said the redacted part is the Factional Recruit. Or I just assumed that from what he was saying.

But then it's like a Factional Town Recruit. To, you know, maybe fight back against the possible cult recruits?
I agree, though. That's the only part that bugs me. But the wincon is important. If their wincon is scum, what's saying the Northern Tribes aren't scum too? Is it cause their name is in a pretty blue colour? No, the Northern Tribes are town. Even if they don't share a wincon with the Individual Humans.



Going to review A50's post too.

[RAM]

Don't give this faction a free path

Okay, but are you not listening to what SS is even doing right now? Why would he, a scum faction in your words, claim he was a scum faction? Claim the wincon and everything and say he was aligned with Kuroi? Why would he not just use his give fakeclaim if he were scum? I don't see how Town isn't being reasonable here. Why didn't Kuroi use his fake claim?

This is the difference between SS and LLD right now. SS genuinely gets their wincon. LLD is still acting like she has no idea. I think that's because it's a fakeclaim.

~ Bins

[RAM]

two of them are critically suspicious and have a redacted part. how on earth would you call one town with no info , just based on those suspicious powerful roles and the similarity of their wincon wording?

I think SS said the redacted part is the Factional Recruit. Or I just assumed that from what he was saying.

But then it's like a Factional Town Recruit. To, you know, maybe fight back against the possible cult recruits?
I agree, though. That's the only part that bugs me. But the wincon is important. If their wincon is scum, what's saying the Northern Tribes aren't scum too? Is it cause their name is in a pretty blue colour? No, the Northern Tribes are town. Even if they don't share a wincon with the Individual Humans.



Going to review A50's post too.

Also ~ Bins, sorry.

[RAM]

Don't give this faction a free path

Okay, but are you not listening to what SS is even doing right now? Why would he, a scum faction in your words, claim he was a scum faction? Claim the wincon and everything and say he was aligned with Kuroi? Why would he not just use his give fakeclaim if he were scum? I don't see how Town isn't being reasonable here. Why didn't Kuroi use his fake claim?

This is the difference between SS and LLD right now. SS genuinely gets their wincon. LLD is still acting like she has no idea. I think that's because it's a fakeclaim.

~ Bins

what is he doing? scum hunting?

I beleive a scum will scum hunt in multiball for sure

screaming? yeah they will do that if pressured as eaither alignment

NO FA

He's CLAIMING what you think is a SCUM FACTION. WHY THE HELL WOULD HE DO THAT? Especially if it doesn't match the RESULT on him? I think he's telling the truth.

I think these Individual Vampires and other creepy shit (Individual Wuldan, I guess) are the "Enemies that are actually your allies." Mastin is talking about.

~ Bins

pedit - It really wasn't.

[RAM]

Also, LLD also claimed one of these "Individual [Scummy sounding shit]". Do you think that's scum as well? I mean, it even has a different wincon from town! Do you think scum again fakeclaimed something scummy? I just don't think LLD thought she would get heat for claiming something with a town wincon.

The Individual Wuldan sound worse than the Individual Vampires. Especially because their wincon is different from mine (the town one) and I can't even figure out who Dram was aligned with yet for certain. But I still think they were town-ish.


LLD is just fakeclaiming it. Which also sort of confirms again along similar logic that it's town because why would scum fakeclaim something that was Scum?

[RAM]

Game Mechanics

:

[*]Loosely speaking,

there is at least one town faction

. They win if all threats to them are eliminated. [*]

Loosely speaking,

at least one faction is definitely a scum/mafia faction

. They win if they control 50% of the living.

Role

You are an

Individual Vampire Doctor

.

[REDACTED - FACTIONAL]

In addition, you hold the following

personal abilities

:

1. During the night, target a player. They will be protected from any attempts on their life.
2. Racial checker
   : During the night, in addition to any actions you may take, you may
   check
   a player's
   race
   .

You give the home

Nation

result of

Northern Tribes

.
You give the

Location

result of

Other

.
You give the

Race

result of

Vampire

.

You win when all threats to

the

Individual Vampire

faction

have been eliminated.

[/spoiler]

[/quote]

role

You are the

West Empire Champion

.

HUMANITY'S CHAMPION:

1. Rivalry knowledge:
   You know that there are two other human champions:
   Panther Timon
   of the
   Eastern Kingdom
   , and
   Adrian Burkhard
   , of the
   Northern Tribes
   . There may be other champions in existence as well, however, if so, they would differ from the three human champions' symbiotic relationship.
2. Teeth-clenched teamwork:
   You hold a
   conditional X-shot bulletproof vest
   . This is an
   instantly-applied action
   . X = the number of
   human champions dead
   . You will be informed how many vests you hold. These vests protect against
   one
   nightkill attempt, and are applied
   before any protective role
   .
3. Any attempt to recruit you to a different faction will fail.

In addition to your status as a champion of humanity, you hold the following

personal abilities

:

1. During the night, target a player. If they are
   not a human
   , then you will
   kill
   them.
2. Once in the game, during the night, you may target a player. If
   they do not share your nation
   , they will die. This takes the place of your non-human kill.
3. Once in the game, during the night, you may target a player. If
   they do not share your faction
   , they will die. This takes the place of your non-human kill.
4. Old Grudge:
   If you target
   Panther Timon
   or
   Adrian Burkhard
   , regardless of whether they fit the conditions for your nightkill or not, you will kill them.
5. During pregame, you may select either "location" or "nation". Each night, in addition to any night action you perform, you may investigate a player and learn whichever you selected in pregame.

You give the home

Nation

result of

West Empire

.
You give the

Location

result of

Great Ridge

.
You give the

Race

result of

Human

.

You win when all threats to

the

West Empire

faction

have been eliminated.

dramonic

, who was

Eugine Lysander,

Undead Risen Slave

, has

died N1

.

Role

You are an

Undead Risen Slave

.

[REDACTED - FACTIONAL]

In addition to the above, you hold the following

personal ability

:

Racial Checker

: During the night, in addition to any actions you may take, you may

check

a player's

race

.
You give the home

Nation

result of

East Kingdom

.
You give the

Location

result of

Divitias

.
You give the

Race

result of

Undead

.

You win if all threats to a new humanity treaty are eliminated and at least one player with this wincon is alive.

[/quote]

BBMolla

, who was

Julia Otho,

Individual Human Jailkeeper

, has

died N1

.

Role

You are an

Individual Human Jailkeeper

.
You hold the following

personal abilities

:

1. During the night, target a player. You will protect them from any and all nightkills, while also blocking
   all
   actions they perform.
2. During pregame, you may select either "location" or "nation". Each night, in addition to any night action you perform, you may investigate a player and learn whichever you selected in pregame.

You give the home

Nation

result of

West Empire

.
You give the

Location

result of

Great Ridge

.
You give the

Race

result of

Human

.

You win if all threats to

the

Individual Humans

faction

have been eliminated.

[/quote]

[/quote]

This is the friggin proof FA. Mastins post: They win if all threats to them are eliminated. EVERY SINGLE WIN CON WE'VE SEEN(AND YOU'RE OWN, ASSUMING YOU'RE TOWN): "You win if all threats to <faction name> are eliminated".

-Cerb

pedit: There are people in this thread who are apparently ignoring Nahdia and incapable of understanding the basic mechanics of this game, in spite of overwhelming evidence...and are making cases against people based on that misunderstanding. It has to be corrected copper.



MOD NOTE:
UH...I'd fix this if I could figure out what the heck actually happened, but...well, I'm clueless.

[RAM]

I can dig the Invidual Vampires being the superhappyfuntime friends of the Individual Humans, but the humanity treaty stuff is dodgy af and I want it dead.

^ Basically this.

I can't figure out this "New Humanity Treaty" stuff. Seems like the Town Wincon for scum counterparts? Like for the Wuldan and whatever Dram was? I can't tell if it was town or not. But again if LLD is scum why would she fakeclaim it? Does that make it town? Would LLD just claim scum? No?

I think it might be the Town counterpart for the Wuldan. Because, being Wuldan is scummy as fuck but it doesn't make you scum.


Still the LLD is fakeclaiming, though.

~ Bins


pedit — dw man you're town Wake and A50 has already claimed Northern.

[RAM]

(Sorry mastin, quote tags are all fucked up in that previous post, along with the text color etc. If you could fix it I would be very appreciative, so I'm not stealing your color).

-Cerb

pedit: True. The exact verbiage used DOES only guarantee at least one scum faction that wins if they control 50% of the vote. I also disagree with that notion. I'm more inclined to believe that the ambiguity that allows that line of reasoning to be valid was a necessary evil for mastin to avoid giving out more information than she desired about the setup. I can't think of any way for her to confirm that all "town factions" eliminate threats and all 'scum factions" attempt to control the vote without confirming definitively that there are two of more of each, thus her phrasing could have been intended to be interpreted either way.

[RAM]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the Town which is meant to co-operate, who don't have PT and who can have a shared win is:

- Individual Humans
- Northern Tribes
- West Empire
- Eastern Kingdom

By virtue of the fact that Individual Humans are called individual Humans - and the Tribes, Empire and Kingdom all have a HUMAN champion who presumably kills non-humans.

Oh and _MAYBE_ the Individual Vampires are part of this and can be part of the super-happy-fun-times. MAYBE.

Yay for rb saying literally what I just said


glad you're getting it tho

~ Bins

[RAM]

Wow, I got like so many strong townreads in these past pages.

Woot woot.

~ Bins

[RAM]

@stormblade: Untrue. You are only a neutral survivor if you can win with scum. I suppose it's possible that the scum team don't count as threats to the various individual race factions, but it seems unlikely.

@rb: It's strictly superior to wifom the scum with knowledge that Luna will be watched and protected, so they leave her the fuck alone, while she investigates her own hood, rather than lynching that hood and diminishing it's eventually utility. Ideally, they would have all remained unknown all game long, but it's still strong to be able to create a large masonry, which is what luna can eventually do(for herself at least, and for anyone in that hood who believes there is no more than one scum slot spying on them).

-Cerb

pedit: Oh. good point SS. So yeah, that's pretty purely a town win con. The dram flip was the one that requires survival, right?

[RAM]

Why. Why why why why why.

QFT.

I know you had hinted at stuff, but there was some uncertainty before, now...you're just confirming more. :-/ <3 Luna, but man, you're a friggin sieve.
-Cerb

[RAM]

I think it is bullshit you guys where letting all the momentum head in the direction of LLD when you could have just claimed undead earlier.

What? How is this relevant?

-Cerb

[RAM]

there's no reason to believe lld is scum unless you believe every race cop is essentially a faction cop

meanwhile we have an ACTUAL faction cop result

I've been over this Ceph.

SS's reaction just doesn't make sense. Just envision how this all plays out with SS!scum just rolling with the isolationist result. He goes yeah, I'm isolationist, so what? She says what's that factions win con? He says remove all threats. She says oh. okay.

...

That's it. I mean, maybe she keeps asking him more questions, but...that's CERTAINLY less suspicious than saying no. Your result must be wrong.

No way(well, okay, super friggin unlikely) that SS!scum goes with "naw man, your faction cop was totally redirected".

-Cerb

[RAM]

SS's reaction just doesn't make sense. Just envision how this all plays out with SS!scum just rolling with the isolationist result. He goes yeah, I'm isolationist, so what? She says what's that factions win con? He says remove all threats. She says oh. okay.

and what do you think happens when their scumbuddy later flips isolationist?

True, assuming SS!Scum it does mean that a scumflip at any point would guarantee their death.

I just feel like the argument they used is way more likely to result in their death today, which is absolutely inferior to their partners future death resulting in their own(since it's possible they could win without ever losing a partner), and it denies the information to town earlier in the game, which could be used to catch their partners sooner.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I am voting LLD cause Wulden is more or less a cult/scum claim given our information, the rest she likely made up.

This is my position. Well, the first part, about the information we've been given about your hood and the membership and the potential spy being a wulden, sorta all points to wulden being anti-town for MECHANICAL reasons, not flavor ones.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Luna, I thought you said on D1 that all members of your hood were guaranteed to have your same wincon, OR be a spy?

Was that the case, or were the races merely guaranteed, and you conflated race with wincon?

-Cerb

[RAM]

No, I think I get it. So everyone in the PT is guaranteed to count as undead. Per Mastin, undead for the purposes of that PT are Wulden and Undead Risen Slave(or whatever portion of drams' flip counts as your actual faction, not sure if Risen Slave was his role name, or if that's part of the faction name). In addition, everyone in that PT either shares the same wincon, OR is a spy.

After some talk back and forth, you determined that everyone in the PT was claiming to be Undead, therefore if their is a spy, they must be Wulden.

Is that about the gist of it?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Cool. I think there's no further benefit to discussing things about the race and such then. It is entirely possible for race and faction to be wholly independent. There is some degree of mechanical evidence(based on the universal undead claims in your PT) that at least one wulden is anti-town. Slightly weaker mechanical evidence that at least one undead is anti-town.

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna? You could have been clearing your own PT at a rate of 2 per night, between discovering individuals within the PT who had a different wincon, and using dramonics racial cop to find those who had fake claimed. I understand the others may not have claimed, but there is little reason to not turn your neighborhood into a masonry.

I ask this because I, as I've said repeatedly, find SS's reaction to your result unlikely to come from scum in the circumstances of this game. The line of reasoning I presented, that is, that you investigating within the PT is optimal, should have come up in your conversations in the PT, and if so/depending on your reaction to it, may have made a deliberate attempt to frame other members of the PT as scum likely. Of course, it's possible it was simply random target selection, rather than a deliberate attempt to frame(though random selection when any faction that shows up as differing from your own is an effective guilty is basically an attempt to frame).

Either way, the point is IF such redirection exists(that is, source based redirection, rather than target based(a redirector versus a bus driver)), I'm pretty certain there is no other role(other than a vig) that would be a better target for redirection.

-Cerb

[RAM]

RachMarie: Are you actively caught up with the game? I know you said you'd catch up after the weekend, just wondering where you are in the catch-up and if you have any insights to share.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Cool. I think there's no further benefit to discussing things about the race and such then. It is entirely possible for race and faction to be wholly independent. There is some degree of mechanical evidence(based on the universal undead claims in your PT) that at least one wulden is anti-town. Slightly weaker mechanical evidence that at least one undead is anti-town.

Why didn't you investigate your own PT Luna? You could have been clearing your own PT at a rate of 2 per night, between discovering individuals within the PT who had a different wincon, and using dramonics racial cop to find those who had fake claimed. I understand the others may not have claimed, but there is little reason to not turn your neighborhood into a masonry.

I ask this because I, as I've said repeatedly, find SS's reaction to your result unlikely to come from scum in the circumstances of this game. The line of reasoning I presented, that is, that you investigating within the PT is optimal, should have come up in your conversations in the PT, and if so/depending on your reaction to it, may have made a deliberate attempt to frame other members of the PT as scum likely. Of course, it's possible it was simply random target selection, rather than a deliberate attempt to frame(though random selection when any faction that shows up as differing from your own is an effective guilty is basically an attempt to frame).

Either way, the point is IF such redirection exists(that is, source based redirection, rather than target based(a redirector versus a bus driver)), I'm pretty certain there is no other role(other than a vig) that would be a better target for redirection.

-Cerb

If the redirector was scum inside the PT and wanted to prevent a guilty on themselves, how would they choose whom to send the redirect to? It seems pretty implausible that they would pick a random player outside the PT as a target, given the possibility of a guilty for a different reason.

I don't think the objective would be to prevent a guilty on themselves? The hood was fairly sizeable from what we've been told, so it's fairly unlikely(on the first night at least) that the person luna would choose to investigate within the hood would be themselves. It's possible that they were more concerned with keeping themselves safe, but I'd think framing someone within the hood would be more valuable(as would framing anyone outside the hood as well). Given that the majority of the game, and *probably* the hood is town aligned, directing the faction cop towards actual scum, or a person they viewed as scummy, would only risk hurting their own team if the person investigated was on their team...which is unlikely.

Basically, I think it would be better to create false guilties when you have no knowledge of who a faction cop will investigate, than it is to ensure they will return a false innocent.

This is all speculation though. I can tell you how I would utilize such an ability as scum in that situation, but I don't know how someone else would. :-/

-Cerb

[RAM]

This is all speculation though. I can tell you how I would utilize such an ability as scum in that situation, but I don't know how someone else would. :-/

This much I can agree with. We should just ignore the WIFOM and treat it like a real result. No guarantees but I think it's best to apply Occam's razor - most likely reason for a guilty result is an actual guilty.

Sure. SS's reaction to the guilty absolutely doesn't make sense given the obfuscation about win conditions and factions in this game. Therefore, he's telling the truth, therefore Luna's result was tampered with. Hell, we don't even know what the isolationist faction is, all we know is that Luna says she received that result from a faction cop on SS, and SS says that isn't his faction...a claim he made AFTER she outed the result. Doesn't make sense yo, and I don't vote for people whose actions don't make any actual sense for scum.

The LLD thing is all speculation too. Honestly, based on actual behavior in thread, the slot I'd be happiest voting for is without a doubt Klingoncelt. Like, hands down. I tried to get people to after her yesterday, and everybody was all "oh yeah this behavior by her is scummy, blah blah blah" but practicaly nobody actually voted her.
-Cerb

[RAM]

They're informed Toogeloo, at least partially/imperfectly. It makes PERFECT sense that their win condition is more convoluted than a standard town win condition.

And you have someone with the same faction, someone who has publicly claimed en masse the membership of said faction, telling you that they will also have redacted factional info.

Your theory is wrong.

-Cerb

[RAM]

@KC: You had a faction cop who claimed in an unsecure PT, who was widely townread by the game at large. Why did you watch ASOIAF instead of her?

-Cerb

[RAM]

As I skim, my thoughts are aligned mostly with Rb/mathblade/Cephrir.

The LLD wagon is as reactionary as it gets. There are a couple players, Expedience and Albert's head of Stormblade, that aren't using "Wulden!" as their main reason but I either don't see an explanation for the scum read (albert) or don't see anything remotely convincing to empathize with that read (Expedience). I can understand where copper (and assume the other people not Albert/Expedience) are getting the 90% chance number but at the same time, there's hardly any mention of cephrir, who would be subject to that same scrutiny (especially from copper who has explicitly mentioned a group nosferatu faction, but even in a recent post has his sights on SS/RB after LLD and NOT cephrir). There's also no one that has come out and said they were either individual wulden/nosferatu which would be natural in this gamestate. That lends credence to both their claims.

So yeah, this LLD wagon is lazy af, half of everyone on it has barely said more than 2 words, and if they have said more, it's generally been about baseless speculation, or even provably wrong speculation.

Meanwhile, WT with every post becomes more and more obvious scum. Was the Counter-wagon to town that stalled out, and dramonic WT's #1 pusher is dead.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that he's scum.

It's literally claiming miller when you get checked by a cop, except there is a known greater chance of one existing. I don't see why more people are voting.

(rb is still obvtown btw)

I agree with you. How does this make you feel?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Null, maybe slightly bothered because you're scum.

Good answer, consistent with previous behaviors. Cool.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Why do we care about there win con?

Pretty much. If they care about their win con they should probably just not use their recruit until their down to their last member and have maximized their knowledge of races, so they can get a late addition to their faction to keep the win con alive.

Anyways, lyching through their hood is pretty dumb, but that doesn't change the fact that klingon is scummy. Being in that hood shouldn't just give her a pass on her play.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Luna, you're making a pretty major assumption. You're assuming that any redirection would effect ALL actions you take. No reason at all why a redirect couldn't be limited to role only, rather than the check and role. I mean there's no reason to think it isn't everything either, but the fact that you got the proper result on Stormblade doesn't have any relation to the likelihood of your check on SS being accurate.

Really, I think people should judge based on SS' actual play and reaction to the result on him etc and decide whether they think he's town or scum based on that, rather than sheeping what is essentially an impure guilty.

If the game was without scummy slots, I'd be all for just defaulting to the mindless lynch, but...there actually are slots who are scum by play, and we should lynch them.

Nahdia: did you give up on building a case against my slot?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Yes and in every game EVERYTHING SINGLE SLOT is given a second action to take.

What are you saying about the mechanics post?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Ya but why would he ever hang his defense on "spinning the redirect possibility? Seriously, someone make me understand why they feel that's a reasonable response from scum given that nobody has a firm grasp on what factions and win conditions are town?

Like, that's the biggest problem I have with it. It's a super bad play for surviving today.

-Cerb

Pedit: it doesn't tell you that a redirect or block would always affect all actions. That is ABSOLUTELY just an assumption.

[RAM]

No, my point is NOBODY KNOWS WHAT ISOLATIONIST MEANS.

Like, if he's scum, and he KNOWS the town can't even figure out whether or not their own slots are town, why wouldn't he just say yes, I'm this faction, and it's a town faction??

He gets lynched if one of his teammates flips later, but if the alternative is getting lynched today 90% of the time why would he ever choose that?

-Cerb

Pedit:this isn't a normal game. I absolutely agree with the theory, but when there are a fuck ton of factions it doesn't make sense.

[RAM]

Nahdia: did you give up on building a case against my slot?

Lost the motivation. It's been a rough day. Maybe later. Maybe I'll just let people lynch the Klingon slot. Maybe I'll push WT instead. idk.
-Nahdia

:/ hope it gets better for you. Mainly because I love nothing more than tearing apart cases against me. :p and cuz I <3 you and want you to have awesome days, not rough ones.

Anyways that was a serious request. You all know what a clusterfuck factional claims have been this game. You know someone trying to wriggle out of a result on them by claiming a redirect with no prior evidence is SUPER unlikely to succeed. Some please explain to me why would scum rely on the implausible redirect over towns ignorance of which factions are aligned with town and which are scum?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Well, after seeing drams flip, I'd be willing to believe anything, because I was assuming an undead faction wouldn't be town aligned. :/

-Cerb

[RAM]

Why would a Human

want

to become a Vampire recruit in the first place?

I shouldn't have to explain to you how having a confirmed town wincon is beneficial.

Unvote;
Vote: Salt Squad

That actually doesn't make sense. Your reaction, that is. Perhaps you could use your words.

-Cerb

[RAM]

For the record (since I don't think I've actually said anything about this) SS' whole one more night thing is absolute shit.

Like, it's fucking terrible, because it means very little.

Here's what's happens if you're town.

1) you recruit someone. We lynch you. You flip town. We know they're town.
2) you fail to recruit someone. Your lynch does the exact same thing it does today.
3) scum KNOW you have to recruit someone tonight, so they just fucking redirect you (because remembwr, in the world where you're town, THERE IS A SCUM REDIRECTOR AROUND), and you end up in 2. Basically, always.

If you're scum, this is what happens:

1) you lie. You tell us you attempted to recruit someone and failed, spew some wifom, get flipped, and it all means nothing. Maybe you did recruit someome, maybe you didn't but it sure as fuck isn't going to help out town.

BUT.

As terrible as it is. It isn't scummy. It's stupid flaily and poorly thought out, because it doesn't take into account the requirement that a redirector exists, but not scummy. Survivalistic, yes. Not scummy.

So yeah, nobody should really consider that an actual reason to keep him alive another day.

However, Toogeloo, it's still fucking stupid of you to knee-jerk vote him for making an obvious statement, he shouldn't have to explain to you how KNOWING someone has a town win con is helpful to town...the fact that there's basically no chance of that actually happening is irrelevant, his point still holds true.

-Cerb

[RAM]

@mathblade: survivalism is NAI. It is your fucking job, as any alignment, to not get lynched(barring jesters and shit like that). As town, you KNOW a lynch on you is a mislynch, therefore a lynch on literally anyone else is superior, because from your perspective it has a higher chance of being a lynch on scum.

Luna isn't scum because it's fucking stupid to claim a guilty on someone the way she did, when she has an entire PT to use to communicate. Real or interfered with, it's stupid to paint that target on yourself as scum in a multiball game. If she flat out made up a result as scum, it's EVEN STUPIDER.

So yeah. She's not scum. Obviously.

Please don't waste my time again by asking why the most obviously town slot in the game isn't someone I'm willing to consider as scum.
@expedience: fuck off with your stupid request for SS to self vote. All self votes do is fuck with towns ability to analyze wagons, and stifle conversation by ending the day sooner. There's a reason why scum self vote.

I'm appalled at the foolishness of some of the things being said here.

Speaking of which: YOUR JOB IS TO CATCH FUCKING SCUM. IF THERE STOP BEING NIGHT KILLS, AND THE GAME IS NOT OVER, THEN FUCKING WORRY ABOUT YOUR ANCILLIARY GOALS.

Until then, do your fucking jobs.

-Cerb

Pedit: No, the fact that he referred to the result on him as a guilty is MEANINGLESS because the GAME has been treating it as such.

[RAM]

They're a good lynch because it will shut all of you up(and therefore allow the game to move on to other shit like obvscum former KC slot and probscum LLD). They're a bad lynch because they're town. Sounds quite waffleable.

Luna, I'm more inclined to think the lost players lack the ability to comprehend text, and prioritize goals. It's pretty straightforward. Scum are ALWAYS threats to everyone but themselves, so get rid of them. All else is secondary. All this hemming and hawing amd hitching and moaning is meaningless. Identify town. Don't let them get mislynched. Identify scum. Remove them by any means necessary. That's the fucking game, every time. All this multifactional bullshit is just noise.

Also, in case someone hammers SS like an idiot before we have a VC, since we haven't had one in forever and I have no idea how close to lynch he is:

Other faction champions, assuming you have similar powers as Titus, fucking shoot LLD and/or KC.

Thanks, and good night.

-Cerb

@Expedience: I don't vote my town reads. Period. I fight tooth and nail to keep them alive if I'm actually involved in the game.

[RAM]

Actually, let me rephrase that Expedience: if I have what is essentially a behavioral tell on someone, that is, if I can point to something and say definitively, that it DOES NOT make sense for scum to take the action in question, I'll fight tooth and nail.

If it's a loose feeling or collection of slightly more town than scum events, I still won't vote for them(except in the last like hour of a day phase to ensure a lynch happens, which isn't a problem here), but I also won't waste so much effort arguing on their behalf.

-Cerb

Pedit: good luck FB. Unfortunately, you've tipped your hand, and now I know to disregard your posts! Mwahaha!

[RAM]

Cephrir.....what the fuck difference does it really make? Unless you have a kill and need to be aware of whether or not you may be removing those who could enable your victory, it doesn't fucking matter man. You'll live or die based on the reads vigs and the rest of the town have on you, and whether or not you're a threat to scum.

You knowing whether you need to be alive or not doesn't you want the game to last any more nights than it has to, soo...doesn't matter.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Naw, no reason to, town is surely going to mislynch and end the day before I would begin to get any reasonable answers to questions I might ask.

Plus, I've already identified one scum, it's just people don't like thinking, so they're not voting the slot.

Also, I'm gonna try to go to sleep for reals now.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Wake, can I be one of your townspeople even if I'm not the same faction? This is entirely hypothetical of course, I may very well be a Northern Tribesperson just like you.

What are you talking about?

I'm suddenly very aware of how this game works, and what to look for.

Basically if you're Northern Tribes faction with the wincon of eliminating all threats to it, you're basically my Townspeople.

I need you to claim if you're of my Faction, AND your Nation.

IF EVER there was a reason to do a Factional Townbloc, THIS IS IT. I need my fellow Tribesmen. WINTER IS COMING! THE NORTH REMEMBERS! SANSA IS HOT!

JOIN ME, MY TRIBESMEN. WE'LL SORT THE LIARS OUT EVENTUALLY. THE BEAR IS FULLY COOKED.

did you not read the entire game, or did you just skip the mechanics post and the titus flip.

And again, what are you talking about?

I PM'd Mastin and he said if a player shares my faction, they share my wincon (and can therefore be trusted).

Basically any player with a Northern Tribes wincon will win with other members of the NT wincon, because they are all members of that faction: a victory for one of them is a victory for all of them.

How was this ever unclear?

Never mind. I don't want to know. Wake, I don't believe having your faction all claim together will do anything except cause you guys to do the same dumb thing the undead are doing, that is, circling the wagons and refusing to vote for scum in your midst.

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'd just like to note that LLD was here plenty at day start and while she had votes on her, but has since completely disappeared, so much so that she's 8 hours off from a prod. Maybe it's just a weekend thing for her, but it's still not very comforting.

rb: why do people need to get off LLD? What reason could you possibly have for townreading that particular contentless void?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Mathblade, I don't believe your last post meant anything. Everyone already knew that Luna obviously believes her result, and that as a result Luna is obviously town.

What exactly was the point of that post?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Mathblade, I don't believe your last post meant anything. Everyone already knew that Luna obviously believes her result, and that as a result Luna is obviously town.

What exactly was the point of that post?

-Cerb

It is to establish to you that you are not voting SS. Therefore option 2 or 3 is your world and I want to understand why you are in that world and not pushing Luna / SS to figure out which it is.

I've repeatedly stated why I believe SS' claim. My position is entirely based on SS' actual play/reaction to the result on him.

What part of my stance do you not understand?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Oh, and there's no real ability for Luna to figure out what happened...so what exactly am I supposed to be pushing her about?

-Cerb

[RAM]

I already determined(since yesterday) that the klingon slot was likely scum.

I'm not sure what you are expecting me to attempt to figure out, when I already feel that I know how it happened, and have made those beliefs obvious.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Mainly that if it is point 2 that you don't seem to be trying to find out how in option 2 scum knew how to redirect Luna. It is why I asked them last night about when they first claimed. Option 2 IMHO requires the scum team to be psychic and/or in Luna's hood.

And even if they were why they would redirect on themselves when a claimed watcher is in the hood. I don't see you trying to answer that it looks more like you are trying to save SS.

I don't believe anyone has said that Klingon was claimed yesterday. Nahdia said that she thought about making a blanket statement to have doctors/watchers in their PT target Luna, but chose not to because she thought it was obvious. The phrasing she used would seem to indicate that there was no claim of a watcher, or else she would have specifically called out KC. That's how I interpret that statement at least.

I'm also not suggesting that they redirected on themselves? Multi-factional game. This could just as easily be a random redirect(though if they KNEW Luna wasn't targeting within her PT(which is something she announced) a framing redirect becomes almost certain).

I feel as though you have a rather weak understanding of the game state here Mathblade. Or at least, not exactly accurate recollection of the claims which have been made regarding events.

-Cerb

[RAM]

@Luna:

Spoiler: Cerb deciding KC was scum on D1, while trying to get the people who expressed suspicion of her to actually vote for her

You say KC was connecting Expe and Kuroi. She wasn't. Instead of correcting you, she agrees that at one point she was connecting those two, but has since changed her mind.

That inconsistency /contradiction concerns me....like Expe said, it's as though she's not actually holding these reads, and so just went with what you said, even though it wasn't true.

-Cern

Like my first thought was that perhaps you and KC were scum together, and in your PT she had said something about that connection but you hadnt realized she never said it in the main thread, thus why I was specifically questioning you about it. Your answer was acceptable, so it means just KC looks suspicious for that particular interaction.

Now I'm asking you(and anyone else, really)to look at that and tell me if you think that's actually cause for suspicion or if I'm blowing it out of proportion.

-Cerb

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

-Cerb

Titus: I don't understand why you're assuming a connection between Kuroi and KC. I think their actions are independently questionable, but nothing really links them together imo.

No retreat: this isn't a matter of KC making a typo though? Mathblade said she connected two slots she NEVER connected, and she was just like "oh yeah, but I changed my mind since then and I believe this now instead".

-Cerb

You say KC was connecting Expe and Kuroi. She wasn't. Instead of correcting you, she agrees that at one point she was connecting those two, but has since changed her mind.

That inconsistency /contradiction concerns me....like Expe said, it's as though she's not actually holding these reads, and so just went with what you said, even though it wasn't true.

-Cern

Ahhh now I understand the question. KlingonCelt's positions do concern me as I explained earlier I find their reads wholly inconsistent and impossible. See post 2818.

I need more votes

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

I'm just going to steal this.

It's actually really concerning. I checked myself to see if there was ever a time Kuroi was mentioned by Celt and in what context. And there was never a single one. I suppose it could be possible that Kuroi being a scum read was one of those internal reads that you sort of hold to yourself, but even if so, Celt did not correct what looks like an inconsistency when it was directly pointed out. So yeah, it seems to me she muddled her (fake) reads

Copper, since you're here...thoughts on KC? Specifically regarding what I asked MathBlade about on this page?

I'm just going to steal this.

It's actually really concerning. I checked myself to see if there was ever a time Kuroi was mentioned by Celt and in what context. And there was never a single one. I suppose it could be possible that Kuroi being a scum read was one of those internal reads that you sort of hold to yourself, but even if so, Celt did not correct what looks like an inconsistency when it was directly pointed out. So yeah, it seems to me she muddled her (fake) reads

titcr.

Why were you assuming 5 factions?

@RAM I'm already scumreading Celt but I will say that I've but thinking one thing and mistyped. I did it in this game when talking about Almost but typed PV.

@ram

ok i agree with you and think kling is scum anyways

That's certainly enough to make me sure I'm not just being crazy and flipping out over nothing.

VOTE: Klingoncelt

If I can vote KC, the rest of you certainly can.

-Cerb

-Cerb

[RAM]

Either way.
I hope you realize that my wincon is at risk by lynching in the hood without certainty of the existance of scum in it, i'd prefer to lynch SS first because im not 100% sure they are town, and you shouldn't be so sure either, what do you lose if they flip town?
Meanwhile i lose A LOT if Bacde flips town.

...

Let me explain how mafia works.

Town has a limited number of lynches to use before they lose the game.

A mislynch means you have wasted one of those lynches.

That's what we lose when we mislynch someone, and that's why I don't vote for my townreads.

(for the record, I certainly don't care about preserving your win con, except insofar as I would be happy if we removed all the scum from the game before you lose enough members to prevent your victory. I find your "let's not lynch in my PT" attitude deplorable, PARTICULARLY when you haven't even bothered to attempt to clear your PT on your own without requiring lynches, WHICH IS SOMETHING YOU CAN DO.)

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm actually of the opinion that there is definitely scum in your PT. It seems incredibly implausible that your faction was given a (5/6/????) man masonry. Moreover, given such a masonry with a watcher, a 2x BP, and a faction cop? So you could 1) have the BP give out results from your PR's, 2) have the watcher observe who tries to kill the BP, and 3)still utilize a cop.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Well of course you dont care.
You're an opposing faction.
That much i am certain of now.

Why should ANYONE care about preserving your win con, besides yourself? It's like asking town to play nice with the survivor. (Well, not exactly, but I think you get my point) If it doesn't hurt us, then there's no reason to look within your PT.

Unfortunately, I'm of the opinion that it *is* actively hurting us(if for no other reason than because it's effectively making every member of your pt a modified lover that requires 75% of the threshold in order to be lynched prior to deadline).

-Cerb

[RAM]

I'm actually of the opinion that there is definitely scum in your PT. It seems incredibly implausible that your faction was given a (5/6/????) man masonry. Moreover, given such a masonry with a watcher, a 2x BP, and a faction cop? So you could 1) have the BP give out results from your PR's, 2) have the watcher observe who tries to kill the BP, and 3)still utilize a cop.

Well alignment would be entirely random.
I was one of the main pushers before that there must be at least 1 scum in there, but i rather have the guarantee.
If i tried to scan in my PT considering i was claimed it was very likely i'd been roleblocked or killed by the scumteam whoever's scum in my PT is with. I explained this already

...

That's why you announce your looking outside the PT, then actually look inside.

And I have REPEATEDLY stated what part of SS' actions makes me so certain he's town.

I have asked for someone to explain to me what the scum benefit of his behavior over the alternatives is.

Nobody has expressed anything resembling a reasonable response. The only thing you can all say is "well, we're not dumb, OF COURSE we'd assume isolationist was scum if he agreed with the result" when the majority of players in this game have CLEARLY displayed their idiocy with regards to win conditions and faction claims.

Seems like an extremely easy sell to me(particularly when placed alongside the circumstantial guilty on LLD).

-Cerb

[RAM]

Mainly that if it is point 2 that you don't seem to be trying to find out how in option 2 scum knew how to redirect Luna. It is why I asked them last night about when they first claimed. Option 2 IMHO requires the scum team to be psychic and/or in Luna's hood.

And even if they were why they would redirect on themselves when a claimed watcher is in the hood. I don't see you trying to answer that it looks more like you are trying to save SS.

I don't believe anyone has said that Klingon was claimed yesterday. Nahdia said that she thought about making a blanket statement to have doctors/watchers in their PT target Luna, but chose not to because she thought it was obvious. The phrasing she used would seem to indicate that there was no claim of a watcher, or else she would have specifically called out KC. That's how I interpret that statement at least.

I'm also not suggesting that they redirected on themselves? Multi-factional game. This could just as easily be a random redirect(though if they KNEW Luna wasn't targeting within her PT(which is something she announced) a framing redirect becomes almost certain).

I feel as though you have a rather weak understanding of the game state here Mathblade. Or at least, not exactly accurate recollection of the claims which have been made regarding events.

-Cerb

They would have to for it to make sense.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Redirector

Based on how a redirector works is that it targets all actions according to the wiki.

And if this is bastard and only targeted a specific action then they would have to redirect to someone they would know had the alternative information Luna was looking at.

And they would then have to frame on top of that or luckily hit another scum or cult. If they have a framer redirect becomes moot.

If the redirect without framer was the case, that seems stupid as then unless they knew that Luna was targeting scum. If they knew Luna was targeting scum they would redirect her onto herself to deny use of her power. The fact it is a guilty means they redirected onto themselves or cult.

I agree that there is probably scum in the PT Ram it is way too op. However if I

I don't understand the bold.

You are correct that redirecting onto herself actually seems like a more consistently useful play than a random redirect, or a frame when you don't know who the actual intended target is going to be.

Hmm.

I hadn't considered the self redirection option. That eh, that sorta messes with the whole redirection thing, because it makes it far less likely that the necessary usage we'd have to see in order for SS to be town was the actual way it would be used.

Framer is super unlikely, simply because it's like 1/(27-size of lunas PT) x 1/(27-size of scum team) that the framers target would line up with lunas. So, like less than a .25% chance that a framer would actually frame the right target.

Fuck.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Understand this:
If they know im targeting outside the hood, they cant redirect me towards town inside the hood as that wouldn't make sense because there cannot be more undead risen slaves outside.
If they know im targeting outside the hood they cannot redirect me towards themselves as there's still a chance i target them myself.
On top of it, i got the correct check on the nation/location of someone in my hood.

I 100% do not believe you having the correct check on nation/location matters, at all.

This IS a bastard game, and the "all roles have a check" mechanic is unique to it. Considering slots may use their check *and* their role abilities simultaneously, I sincerely believe that a redirection power that is source based wouldn't necessarily redirect everything.

I think your targeting announcement should have just been used to wifom so you could check inside the PT safely, because checking in the PT is, in a void, the optimal play, since it gets you closer to creating a masonry rather than just a neighborhood. That's not really relevant, your suboptimal PR usage isn't significant. You're not going to convince me that you actually used your PR optimally, all i can hope is that in the future you will do so.

-Cerb

@Mathblade: THIS IS A BASTARD GAME.

...

Also, roles not following the wiki DOES NOT make the game bastard in and of itself. It makes them NON NORMAL. That is, THEME.

[RAM]

What are your thoughts, Luna, on the relation of your PT's power level to the likelihood that it contains scum?

-Cerb

[RAM]

Also, I want SS to claim. He's probably fairly close to lynch, but, well, the redirection thing seems SUPER implausible now since redirecting Luna to herself and using it as a roleblock certainly seems to be the safest way to use the power if such was involved.

-Cerb

[RAM]

What are your thoughts, Luna, on the relation of your PT's power level to the likelihood that it contains scum?

-Cerb

I agree with you the hood likely contains scum. It is with town reading Luna and the mental gymnastics I would have to go through to have Salt Squad be town

(E.g. Suboptimal play of redirecting anywhere but Luna herself)

That not lynching Salt Squad is too much to swallow.

Like pitch to me what scum do to make this scenario happen without a framer. Because that is the part I do not get.

Also, I want SS to claim. He's probably fairly close to lynch, but, well,

the redirection thing seems SUPER implausible now since redirecting Luna to herself and using it as a roleblock certainly seems to be the safest way to use the power

if such was involved.

-Cerb

It doesn't make sense anymore. I wasn't considering the possibility of them just redirecting Luna to herself, which made all other options have risks. When you add in just redirecting her to herself(assuming that would result in a blocked action, which I assume it would since generally people can't target themselves), it no longer makes sense for a scum team with a redirector and knowledge of the faction cop to utilize the redirect in the way it would have had to been utilized for SS to be town.

-Cerb

pedit: Oh? I don't play in normal games, I only play in large themes, unless a friend(*cough* drixx *cough*) needs a replacement or something. This has accustomed me to always asking the moderator how they handle things, rather than assuming they design their roles strictly in lockstep with wiki definitions.

[RAM]

Can we please establish, btw, that this game has WIN CONDITION CHANGES.

That makes it bastard.

Period.

Arguing over whether or not something would be/is bastard is irrelevant in a game which was announced with bastard mechanics in the mechanics post.

-Cerb

[RAM]

....that is a poor assumption. Everything is fair game in a bastard theme game.

-Cerb

[RAM]

This is off topic, specious speculation blah blah, but creating roles that function in a unique way makes the game interesting, it isn't somehow a negative thing for the game.

That's just my opinion, again coming from someone who plays in games which are generally full of unique roles and mechanics.

-Cerb

Pedit: oh, because you can't scumhunt without relying on PRs? :p The point of a redirector is the target of the redirection does not have any way of knowing they were redirected. If every slot has a secondary check which is also messed with, it functionally gives anyone who is redirected a very easy way to discover that they were redirected, thereby removing a lot of the utility from that role. Maybe that helps you better understand where I was coming from?

It's irrelevant now though, I'm no longer sure redirection must have been involved, so..:/

Basically I'm stuck witth ither scum was stupid/very greedy and used their redirection in a very risky fashion, a framer hit the correct target at that .25% chance, or SS is just really really bad and deliberately took a very incompetent path to defend themselves.

[RAM]

If the result is really tempered with I'm more suspicious of something like bussdriver

~Ice

Busdriver is just as implausible as framer(more, even) since they would need to anticipate Lunas target...and since Stormblade received accurate results from their check, seems really unlikely. Though I guess my logic with regards to the decreased value of the role if just double checking the nation/location check could confirm whether or not someone was redirected also applies to bus drivers, so idk.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Not voting until I get an official VC/let him make his claim/let him redo his reads list based on the wagon, since he said something about wanting to see a VC before continuing to scum hunt. Little harm in actually hearing what he has to say at this point, and either way his posts could be useful.

-Cerb

[RAM]

Not voting until I get an official VC/let him make his claim/let him redo his reads list based on the wagon, since he said something about wanting to see a VC before continuing to scum hunt. Little harm in actually hearing what he has to say at this point, and either way his posts could be useful.

-Cerb