As part of my attempt to create the tiniest multiball possible, a closed 7p mechanism as below was successfully run, and an open 7p is being run right now.
I have come to a conclusion that 8p is in fact the best balance.[an extra townie added]
The setup is this:
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:34 pm
by BBmolla
Scumsided to shit. Isn't technically mafia (Town don't have majority day 1) and being town in this setup would just suck as a whole.
If you want 2:2 you need it to be 5:2:2 at the very least. 1:2:4 is doable though.
Posted: Sat Jul 30, 2016 10:54 pm
by shos
With 8p I am not sure it is scumsided at all. What %s, btw? Because scum have to deal with 4 bulletproofs and 2 enemy scums, which doesnt seem much over 33%
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:51 pm
by Ircher
The problem is town has veto power, but otherwise have practically lost from the start.
Town does not control a majority of votes, so town's best option D1 is to no lynch.
That gives: (Assuming RB is used N1 and cannot RB and kill at the same time):
Chance of getting RB'd: 1/6 - (1/6 * 1/6) = 5/36 --> Subtract the probability that scum!A RBs the killer for scum!B, but scum!B RBs the roleblocker for scum!A.
Mafia Chance of Shooting a Townie : 2/3 * 31/36 = 62/108 = 31/54 (Subtract the chance of being RB'd from 1)
Mafia Chance of Shooting a Werewolf (Doesn't matter which) : 1/3 * 31/36 = 31/108
Mafia Chance of Kill being Blocked : 5/36 = 15/108
Same chances for Werewolves. ^
Chance of Cross-Kill = 31/108 * 31/108 = 961/11664 ~ 0.0824 = 8.24% Chance.
Chance of Mafia killing Werewolf and Werewolf shooting Townie = 31/108 * 31/54 ~ 0.1648 = 16.48% Chance
Chance of Mafia killing Werewolf and Werewolf being blocked = 31/108 * 5/36 ~ 0.0399 = 3.99% Chance
Chance of both being blocked = 5/36 * 5/36 ~ 0.0193 = 1.93% Chance
Chance of 2 Townies (Possibly the same) being shot : 31/54 * 31/54 ~ 0.3296 = 32.96% Chance
Chance of Mafia shooting Townie and Werewolf Blocked = 31/54 * 5/36 ~ 0.0797 = 7.97% Chance
That gives us:
8% Chance of 4:1:1 with 4 BPs.
8% Chance of 4:2:1 with 4 BPs.
33% Chance of 4:2:1 with 3 BPs.
2% Chance of 4:2:2 with 4 BPs.
16% Chance of 4:2:2 with 3 BPs.
25% Chance of 4:2:2 with 2 BPs.
8% Chance of 3:2:2 with 3 BPs.
For 4:2:2 with 2 BPs:
Chance townie was BP : 1/2
Chance townie was not BP : 1/2
Mafia Chance of hitting BP Townie = 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3
Mafia Chance of hitting Non-BP Townie = 2/3 * 1/2 = 1/3
Mafia Chance of hitting a Werewolf = 1/3
(And Vice-Versa)
Chance of Cross-Kill : 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
Chance of killing 2 Townies : 1/3 - (1/3 * 1/3) = 2/9 (Subtract probability of hitting same target)
Chance of killing 1 Townie and no one else : 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
Chance of killing 0 Townies and no one else : 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
Chance of killing 1 Werewolf and no one else : 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
Chance of killing 1 Werewolf and 1 Townie : 1/3 * 1/3 = 1/9
2/9 Chance 2:2:2 with 2 BPs (Town should try to force a lynch in this case probably)
1/9 Chance 3:2:2 with 1 BP (I'd still no lynch as town)
1/9 Chance 4:2:2 Vanilla (Is this chance stored on the wiki?)
2/9 Chance 4:2:1 with 1 BP (Town should lynch)
2/9 Chance 3:2:1 with 2 BPs (Probably no lynch)
1/9 Chance 4:1:1 with 2 BPs (Town should lynch)
For 3:2:2 with 3 BPs:
Mafia Chance of hitting Townie : 3/5
Mafia Chance of hitting Werewolf : 2/5
(Same for Werewolves)
Chance of Cross-Kill : 2/5 * 2/5 = 4/25
Chance of 1 Werewolf Death : 2/5 * 3/5 = 6/25
Chance of 1 BP dying : 3/5 * 1/5 = 3/25
Chance of 2 separate Townies hit : 3/5 * 2/5 = 6/25
Check : 4/25 + 2*6/25 + 3/25 + 6/25 = 25/25
So:
4/25 Chance of 3:1:1 with 3 BPs.
12/25 Chance of 3:2:1 with 2 BPs.
3/25 Chance of 2:2:2 with 2 BPs.
6/25 Chance of 3:2:2 with 1 BP.
Someone else can figure the rest out.
Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:38 pm
by Ircher
Even though no lynch is probably the best strategy for town, I will calculate some stuff if a lynch is achieved D1, but do keep in mind that town needs scum's help to lynch scum, so the actual values for actual play would probably be lower that what the EV reflects.
Both RB's will be used N1 if available.
Chance Goon is lynched = 1/4
Chance RB is lynched = 1/4
Chance BP is lynched = 1/2
Woah, that's impressive. Can't this sort of thing be computerized or something?
Thanks for the analysis, I'll be super happy if someone made it full!
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 4:35 am
by Ircher
In post 5, shos wrote:Woah, that's impressive. Can't this sort of thing be computerized or something?
Thanks for the analysis, I'll be super happy if someone made it full!
Yes, but I'm too lazy to figure that out.
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:55 am
by shos
So Ircher. You assume that town will always nolynch. Why?
Town can definitely make lynches go through. scum want to lynch scum too, remember?
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:26 pm
by Ircher
In post 7, shos wrote:So Ircher. You assume that town will always nolynch. Why?
Town can definitely make lynches go through. scum want to lynch scum too, remember?
I think it's generally in town's advantage to no lynch each day until town outnumber scum (or it gets so ridiculousky scum-sided, that randomly lynching will help town's chances).
We would have to calculate the statistics for both though, and seeing it play out in an actual game might help.
In post 7, shos wrote:So Ircher. You assume that town will always nolynch. Why?
Town can definitely make lynches go through. scum want to lynch scum too, remember?
I think it's generally in town's advantage to no lynch each day until town outnumber scum (or it gets so ridiculousky scum-sided, that randomly lynching will help town's chances).
We would have to calculate the statistics for both though, and seeing it play out in an actual game might help.
Two games have already happened. The first run was here, won by scum, basically one townie threw the game so town were in a bad position from the start. This was a CLOSED run though. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=65225
I would like to see an 8p run before deciding on an optimal strategy.
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:05 am
by shos
*goes to in to mod in the queue again*
/back to study
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 3:52 am
by Ircher
I will /pre-in for your next test run btw.
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2016 5:41 am
by shos
Sure, got it
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 4:45 am
by shos
Hey.
Any chance it is easier, quicker to calculate the EV of this setup when it only has 3 townies, as in 7p? Then we can estimate what the result of 8p would be instead of calculating
Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:43 pm
by Ircher
Not really tbh. The number of options to explore do decrease by one degree, but 7p results may vary too much from 8p to be practical since the setup shifts to even numbers from odd numbers at start.
Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:21 pm
by shos
Game in signups! Go confirm
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 3:36 pm
by ironstove
Question, do the 2 mafia teams win together, or does each team have a separate win condition to control 50% of town? If it's the latter, I think this setup seems fine.
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:42 pm
by shos
They cannot ein together, indeed
Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:32 pm
by shos
By the way, the setup is now being run, if you want to spectate.
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:32 am
by shos
Bump, after yet another successful run
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:44 am
by Pine
I'm not sure if this latest run is something to base viability off of. Several improbable things happened, not to mention a serious imbalance in player skill.
I'm no good at the precision math, but my impression as a scum player was that the individual scumteams are hugely disadvantaged. All town is bulletproof, and there's another, equally powerful team, and they might roleblock you, and your roleblocks are mathematically more likely to block a shot against town than halt a shot against your team. If I'd been thinking right, I would have roleblocked no one at all. The blocker is the real weak link, maybe it would be better if they instead had a Watcher
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:52 am
by Infinity 324
Maybe a cop for scum would be good
Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:14 am
by Pine
Ehh, straight up cop might be too much. You'd get a straight up or down every night. Even assuming D1 NL, that's 1/3 of confirming an opponent for death, 2/3 to confirm that you're better off lynching that Townie. That said, as is you have de facto copping, because a failed shot means they're probably Town, a successful one gives you a flip.
Maybe if you give each team both a Watcher and a Roleblocker, and don't restrict them to using a power or making a kill. The added scum power is actually to Town's benefit, as it merely adds to the scum vs scum play. Watcher can catch the opposing team, Roleblocker adds WIFOM and doubt to negative Watcher results and failed kills. Did the shot hit BP? Was the shot blocked? Etc