PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[Frozen Angel]

Its that your not bringing any logical line of reasoning to support why should something change and I have multiple reasons and examples why its better unchanged - if you agree or your disagree it won't change it.

Your saying mafia pt's are a part of game and must be released after game - I strongly argue against this. Mafia pt's are a concentrated - controled private communication tool. You are free to force releasing them - if you warn the players or change the meta - But from my pov the way it is atm makes more sense

[Frozen Angel]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

[Cerberus v666]

I have a question.

Does anyone in this thread actually believe that Scum PT should be released

against

the scum team's will?

Like, you are modding a game, and the scum team tells you

not to release the scum PT

, would you release it anyway?

Absolutely, 100%. Of course, if I weren't too lazy to run a game, anyone signing up would know that all PTs will be released after the game, and I'd give them an opportunity to have anything of afternythungn exceptionally personal nature redacted.

Anything game related though? That stays in.

I believe that not releasing any PTs is against the spirit of the game. If you're getting mad at people shittalking you, then grow thicker skin (you really need thick skin for this game regardless) or don't play with them in future games. If you're worried about your people figuring out your scumplay, then your scumplay has holes in it that needs to be fixed anyways, and people discovering and using them in the future is a good way to figure out what they are. If you have private information in there, ask a mod to redact those posts before releasing the PT.

There's nothing I find more annoying than playing a hard fought game as town and seeing that the scumteam decided not to release their PT. I like to be able to see their reasoning and what they were thinking as they played the game. They already have a pretty good idea about what most of the town was thinking for most of the game while the game is going on, so why can't I get the same courtesy?

I don't think any of the stated reasons are good reasons to not release a PT.

Agreed.

My opinion is that one is entirely accountable for what one says.

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.
- Laying down your meta? Well if you're not capable of adapting to that fact, then tough break.

If you think these are compelling reasons, you are not engaging with this in a meaningful way.

Dissemination of information is a compelling reason in and of itself. The onus is on those trying to argue that their secrecy in a silly game is sacred to present compelling reasons why that should be the case.

There is no viable reason not to.
- Trashtalk? Well they're gonna see it and if you don't want them to see it then you are a horrible person.

some people dont take honest talk very well, ive had scum qts where we discuss who the shittiest town players are so we could leave them alive and how we can manipulate them best and boy oh boy did they not like that post-game

how would you honestly react to a qt where people are discussing how much terrible you are at the game and how they can best fuck with you to make you rage or lurk for instance

Honestly? I'd be disappointed in myself for being such an easy target.

I'll admit to being outside the norm in terms of how I tend to react to things though.

The real question here is: is it the moderators job to coddle their weaker players and keep them from getting upset? Is it their job to protect their stronger players from the consequences of being nasty in a scum PT? During the game, sure. Afterwards? Absolutely not.

Pedit: nope, wouldn't allow it. As I said, anything game related remains in the game. I am coming from a unique perspective though, even in my hydras where we talk on skype, I post every single game related thing into our hydra pt, regardless of what it may reveal about my opinion of someone, because I know having insight into other players minds is something that will greatly enhance the post game for some people.

Oh, also! The only compelling argument(which I don't think anyone here has expresed, but I may have missed it) in favor of thr guaranteed option of secrecy in any and all PTs is a desire to not potentially hobble people in PTs by forcing them to find new, more subtle or pc ways of pushing paths they support for reasons they would rather not have known publicly.

I'm not sympathetic to this idea because language is versatile, there's no reason why the fundamentals of your argument, or at least the strength of your belief on it, can't be communicated in terms you'd be comfortable using publicly, and thus I feel that being hobbled by this is a failing on your part....one you should remedy.

Pedit: mafia isn't a game about "being nice". This also raises the point that perhaps that easily manipulated individual didn't even realize that, and that bit of the pt will inform them and allow them to become better players. I saw some people make the point that nobody is under any obligation to help their enemies become better at the game....but that's low level thinking. Is your win rate so much more important to you than actually playing a good game that you'd rather ensure the poor players in the community are denied the opportunity to become better through superior knowledge of individuals thought processes as scum?

These are the points I made prior to your entry to the thread.

All the arguments against releasing PTs are incredibly weak in my opinion.

[Cerberus v666]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

IT IS BROKEN THOUGH.

[Frozen Angel]

Before someone call me offensive like people usually do whenever I start talking on MS; I'm criticizing the proposed idea and nothing against Cerb or anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for no shit. I love him as a person and player and I respect his line of thinking. I beleive he is wrong in this - and even if he is right - till the moment I get convinced otherwise I see no reason for changing a behavior.

[Cerberus v666]

Before someone call me offensive like people usually do whenever I start talking on MS; I'm criticizing the proposed idea and nothing against Cerb or anyone else. I'm not going to apologize for no shit. I love him as a person and player and I respect his line of thinking. I beleive he is wrong in this - and even if he is right - till the moment I get convinced otherwise I see no reason for changing a behavior.

<3

[Frozen Angel]

If its aint broken don't fix it.

this apply here I guess. This is one of the changes that its harm is more than the "nothing" your fixing probably

IT IS BROKEN THOUGH.

I read the whole thread after you said it last time.

and It is not really. It is a very reasonable approach for releasing a private communication.

and Fr the point you made about hydra pt's that's just sick to foribly release them as well. I will stand against you about this one... Two players in same slot can have a complete private communication in whatever way they wish and if they let you see their topic and thought process you have no right to betray that trust and out their privacy

[Frozen Angel]

You guys are saying multiple times there is no strong reason (by your standards) for not outing the pt's but you fail in giving a one single strong reason (by your own standards) why should they get public.

[Infinity 324]

They're interesting to read and they help people get better at the game

[Frozen Angel]

They're interesting to read and they help people get better at the game

That won't make it a responsibility for a mod.

The people who wrote them ; wrote them in a private topic. No one cares if you believe their interesting. No one is responsible for giving you whatever you find interesting or to help you get better in anything.

Why you suggest forcibly removing the term "private" from that is a decent move? and how is this counted a decent reason at all ... Your talking about yourself. Outing those pt's is not about what you want. Its about what the people in the PT want and do they have the right to want it private or not.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

I agree that it's reasonable. I simply don't believe it's the right way to handle it, because of all the reasons I've already given.

Pedit: Because it's part of the experience of playing mafia in this format, because it's the expectation(for me at least, and I'm quite certain for others), because it's VERY interesting to see how scum teams coordinated and worked together, and what their plans were, how they reacted to different events and how those decisions were made, and yes, to gain a deeper understanding of mafia through studying the play of others.

[Cerberus v666]

*shrug* there should be no expectation of privacy in those topics once the game is over. The topic exists SOLELY to facilitate the game running, and is private as a result. Once it's over, no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to read it.

[Frozen Angel]

Pedit: Because it's part of the experience of playing mafia in this format, because it's the expectation(for me at least, and I'm quite certain for others), because it's VERY interesting to see how scum teams coordinated and worked together, and what their plans were, how they reacted to different events and how those decisions were made, and yes, to gain a deeper understanding of mafia through studying the play of others.

See my above answer

and my repeated refrense to this : Its not a part of the main thread of game. So you as a player of game has no inherited right to see that topic becuase your playing it.

how the term you find it interesting makes it right thing to do?

[Frozen Angel]

*shrug* there should be no expectation of privacy in those topics once the game is over. The topic exists SOLELY to facilitate the game running, and is private as a result.

Once it's over, no reason why people shouldn't be allowed to read it.

See the point is who are the people who must decide/judge if there is a reason for not publicize them or not?

Mod or The involved players?

I say both. Mod can enforce releasing pt's if they inform the players -as that makes it a decent appraoch to moderate a game in the way people expect if you don't make any exceptions pregame -
But as a topic those players talked into and Owned -by the way game setup gave them this "tool" They can request for not letting it publicly get revealed.

so in your opinion who has this right?

[Cerberus v666]

The only reason why it's not contained in the main thread is because it can't be, mechanically speaking. It is an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Any argument that it's NOT part of the game is disingenuous at best.

Pedit: I don't think it should even be a question. I think it should be known that pts are released, and players should act appropriately. SO, I suppose the moderator. The players choice shouldn't matter, because it was made when they joined the game.

[Frozen Angel]

The only reason why it's not contained in the main thread is because it can't be, mechanically speaking. It is an ESSENTIAL part of the game. Any argument that it's NOT part of the game is disingenuous at best.

Pedit: I don't think it should even be a question. I think it should be known that pts are released, and players should act appropriately. SO, I suppose the moderator. The players choice shouldn't matter, because it was made when they joined the game.

Its not an essential part of the game at all. But I'm not going to argue about this. assuming it is an essential part of the game. why should all essential parts of game get publicly revealed after game finishes?

You are prosposing to give all the players the right - you beleive they all have that right. Thats where I hardly disagree. The chat is just a private tool in hands of involved players and is not a shared property for all of the players in game. Neither of us can convince the other is wrong about this principle so the argument ends here.

[Infinity 324]

@FA: Say the scum communicated in the main game thread but their posts were hidden except for themselves. Would it make sense to always release all the hidden posts that weren't specifically requested to be deleted?

The fact that it's a separate thread is irrelevant to the conversation imo. It's a matter of how much information would you trade for how much privacy

[Frozen Angel]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

oh btw if you modding a game with this approach please tell me before signing up so I never join. I'm really really really protesting against "proposing" the idea mods have any rights to even ask for releasing hydra pt's after game finish.

pedit : No. I'm not talking about semantics ... Private communication must remain private unless the involved people confirm its right to release it.

[Infinity 324]

But the reason it's private is for the purposes of the game, not any other reason. If scum are expecting that the PTs be released, which they should be, I don't see a reason to delete any requested posts and release the PT.

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs are an interesting situation. I think they should also be released, but I don't believe it's as damaging to the game to NOT release them. So, I don't think forcing their release is necessary, unlike with scum PTs.

oh btw if you modding a game with this approach please tell me before signing up so I never join. I'm really really really protesting against "proposing" the idea mods have any rights to even ask for releasing hydra pt's after game finish.

pedit : No. I'm not talking about semantics ... Private communication must remain private unless the involved people confirm its right to release it.

Oh, if I ever mod a game it will be with this approach, and it will be clearly announced in the signup thread.

Pedit: yes, what infinity said..the conversation isn't private because the people involved expect it to never be shared. It's private because the game requires a means of private communication between members of the scum team.

[Frozen Angel]

But the reason it's private is for the purposes of the game, not any other reason. If scum are expecting that the PTs be released, which they should be, I don't see a reason to delete any requested posts and release the PT.

Its labeled private. The reason for making it private doesn't matter. either change the label and inform its not actually private forever.

If scum is expecting that pt to be release just release it. My argument is if its that a necessity/mod responsibility/a good thing generally or not.

[Frozen Angel]

Pedit: yes, what infinity said..the conversation isn't private because the people involved expect it to never be shared. It's private because the game requires a means of private communication between members of the scum team.

It simply doesn't matter.

Its a private thing - either announce your going to betray the term privacy or keep it private if the involved players ask you to. I beleive the second is better, more legit and understandable and more fair.

[Frozen Angel]

Oh, if I ever mod a game it will be with this approach, and it will be clearly announced in the signup thread.

sorry then

I don't play a game when your going to attack my privacy in my hydra. I simply will be offended so hard and its better now that you told its what your going to do.

[Infinity 324]

I think it's reasonable to make mods says they will release the scum PTs post game if they will.

I don't see a specific issue with refusing to withhold the entire PT if the players know it's coming.

[Frozen Angel]

I think it's reasonable to make mods says they will release the scum PTs post game if they will.

I don't see a specific issue with refusing to withhold the entire PT if the players know it's coming.

I have no issue with that as well

Please reread my posts. I'm sure you didn't understand my points at all.