PTs Not Released - Why is this a Thing?

[Infinity 324]

Imo the scum pt is part of the experience of the game

And I'm not saying scum pt should be allowed to be completely private. Just messages should be allowed to be deleted. Again, the conflict that could be caused by a negative message is a lot worse than the downside of 1 deleted post.

[Frozen Angel]

If amod wants to publicly reveal their pts , they must tell that pre game becuase of current meta

if not the players did not signed up to see the private topics after the game. Thats not promised anywhere. and I still believe letting the scums decide to edit or never reveal the pt or not instead of enforcing anything after the game is more reasonable as we as moderators has no responsibility for post game discussions. For full experiane like the way you described you need to install a device on brains of all the players and reveal all their thought process after the game - or you may find another approach who knows.

The only data that a mod must out after the game -arguably- is full game setups and explaining game mechanics. Nothing more - unless they told otherwise at pregame.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh sure, I agree that it should be known in advance thatt everything will be shared, so people know..but that isn't really relevant to the idea that the standard should be revealing all pts.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm saying the standard shouldn't be

as thats not related to mods at all. Its what people may or may not want to share with eachother after a game. why is that mods responsibility to get involved middle of something that might cause serious drama and personal relational issues

[Cerberus v666]

Umm, because it's CLEARLY conversation related to the game? As important as the actual game thread imo.

[Frozen Angel]

Why is its mod responsibility to publicly reveal all the conversations related to game?

Your point makes no sense. People do hydra pt's - no one reveals them by default.

Scum chat is an extra topic which is used by a bunch of players only - and thats the meaning of private. Why should a mod Not let those players to keep their private conversation private to avoid further drama?

[Cerberus v666]

Hydra PTs should be revealed foo. That's not a significant point.

It makes perfect sense? The scum thread is clearly integral to the game and determining what happens in the game. Preventing "drama" shouldn't even be a concern, it's not the mods job to do anything besides run the game itself. I maintain that releasing all PTs is part of running the game, but once it's out there the mods job is done.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh, and it's their responsibility to do so because they're the only ones who can. :p

[Frozen Angel]

it's not the mods job to do anything besides run the game itself.

I maintain that releasing all PTs is part of running the game,

but once it's out there the mods job is done.

Ok here is the part we disagree on

How is publicly revealing all related player made data a part of running the game?

I argue when the game finished ; The moment when mod says its "game over" the mod job is over. even outing setup data and answering questions is even highly recommended extension not a responsibility

[Frozen Angel]

Oh, and it's their responsibility to do so because they're the only ones who can. :p

If your the only one who can jump from a roof , its your responsibility to jump down from it?

Your logic makes no sense here.

[Cerberus v666]

Your response makes no sense.

There is NOBODY ELSE whose responsibility it could be. Nobody else involved in the game has the ability to make PTs public, therefore doing so falls on the moderator. The decision of whether or not pts should be released is absolutely theirs to make.

Do they have ro do it? No.

Should they? Yes.

Should we redefine what duties are expected of a moderator, so they HAVE to do it in the future? Yes.

[Frozen Angel]

Your response makes no sense.

There is NOBODY ELSE whose responsibility it could be. Nobody else involved in the game has the ability to make PTs public, therefore doing so falls on the moderator. The decision of whether or not pts should be released is absolutely theirs to make.

Do they have ro do it? No.

Should they? Yes.

Should we redefine what duties are expected of a moderator, so they HAVE to do it in the future? Yes.

Why they should do it?

Your saying its their responsibilty cause nobody else can do it! I say why should they do it in first place? you say cause its their responsibility and we circle this again.

If your the only one who can do something why is that making you responsible for doing it? Its a data about a private communication between some players. Why you as a part of those small group who had access to that private chat MUST out this to everyone after game finishes?

[Frozen Angel]

no we shouldn't force everyone to out that private data.

Thats simply not making any sense. when someone wants to keep a private communication private , he / she wants to keep it private. It depends how much we value people's privacy.

Releasing a private communication has impact on people relationships. I as a human being won't do it unless the involved people say they have no problem about it - or I will warn about it before game start.

[Cerberus v666]

Oh and the reason why it's part of the game is because of the expectation. The players, when they signed up, EXPECTED, through unspoken rules and based on their prior experiences, that private topics like the scum chat would be shared. By not releasing that PT, moderators are acting in defiance of the expectations of their players.

For instance, if I KNEW in advance that a scum PT was more likely to be concealed than revealed, I likely wouldn't sign up for the game. It's only because I know it is the EXCEPTION, rather than the rule, that a scum PT is concealed, that I'm comfortable playing.

Pedit: there are two parts to my point. First is the fact that the moderators are the only ones who can reveal PTs. That is one thing, and we don't disagree on it. Second is the idea that moderators are EXPECTED to reveal those PTs, and thus by opening a game without any indication that PTs may not be released, they have a responsibility to live up to those expectations of the players.

[Frozen Angel]

Why are they expected to reveal it?

Who is determining this expection?

I believe you know that's not the current meta nowdays so that exeption if exists is simply wrong. Cause what we should expect is getting determined by majority , community culture and meta.
Now arguing if its a right or wrong meta - your not supporting your case why should this meta change at all and I am arguing it shouldn't as its according to what we believe about privacy in general manner. You might argue even that is wrong but its not me or you who decides this. Its site community and moderators in this community who decides it after all.

[Frozen Angel]

If and only if this meta changed you can argue its expected from them

[Infinity 324]

To me it's not an issue of general beliefs or anything, it's an issue of which things are more important. Like, whether the scum chat is considered private or not depends on how the scum feel when they type in it and depends on each scum team. Some people think the scum chat is a critical part of the game, some would never bother to read them. But ultimately it's a very different question whether to withhold the whole thread or just a few posts. Again, even if I highly valued the information in the scum thread, the value of a few posts is questionable and allowing people to delete some posts if they said some potentially offensive things make sense to me. It's an advantage when working with private threads. But withholding the whole scum PT isn't something that should be taken lightly.

[Infinity 324]

But there is a sort of godfather effect with PTs. If they're usually release people can expect them to be release and get disappointed when they aren't.

[Cerberus v666]

Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, but the vast majority of games I've played in and spectator have the scum PTs revealed. If a certain action occurs the majority of the time, people expect it. When I lived in Cali, I expected nice weather. When I drove during rush hour, I expected traffic. Though there may have been exceptions, the majority of the time this was simply the way things were, so going forward I expected it to continue being that way.

If you can show me that, over the last year or so, a significant majority of games don't have their scum pts shared, then I'll admit to being wrong about the expectations of players.

Pedit: exactly what infinity said about the godfather effect.

[Infinity 324]

I still don't think that justifies refusing to delete any posts from the pt though

[Cerberus v666]

I still don't think that justifies refusing to delete any posts from the pt though

I didn't say I would refuse to delete any posts, only that I would refuse to delete any posts that are game related. Personal info can be redacted, so long as it's not relevant to the game.

[Infinity 324]

I wouldn't refuse to delete any posts that could be offensive

[Cerberus v666]

*nods* I get that, and that's where our opinions differ, because you're nicer than I am.

[Frozen Angel]

I will completely accept to completely lock my scum pt or even delete game related posts.

shrugs

have fun in your versions

[Cerberus v666]

*sigh* that was the agree to disagree moment, which means we didn't accomplish anything.