Star Wars Rogue One [GAME OVER]

[Heartless]

Have you read enough to form an opinion of mastina yet, MoI?

[Heartless]

AJ who'd you target last night. I want MOI, and Mastina to claim. Then TWIE and Heartless.

This is a good order.

[Heartless]

As long as MoI is towards the front, I'm happy.

[Heartless]

I'm happy

[Heartless]

It's OK. I'll wait.

[Heartless]

Zefiend still needs to claim flavor and who he used his character ability on.

[Heartless]

We're waiting for both his flavor and action.

[Heartless]

Chirrut Imwe, Rogue Three VT
Special ability is I am one with the Force, the Force is with me and it's the tree stump

[Heartless]

Oh Nero ... come make you fake-claim ...

How many scum are there?

[Heartless]

VC HERE!

Where, Fire?!
Where!!!!!??????

[Heartless]

Vote Count 5.01

Zefiend [2] MagnaofIllusion, Aj The Epic

Not Voting - [6] Heartless, TheWayItEnds, Nero Cain, Mastina, Zefiend, BBMolla

With 8 Alive, It Takes 5 To Lynch.

Rogue Leader Vote:

Mod Notes - May the flavor be with you.

Day 5 ends in (expired on 2017-03-06 22:26:20)!

I see no acknowledgment of anyone being loved.

[Heartless]

I’m Jyn Erso - Rogue One Vanilla Townie. My character ability is “Rebellions are built on hope”, one-shot and unused. I can make someone Loved for the Day by posting in thread. Fire will acknowledge at the next vote count.

I misread this as MoI saying he already used it.
He should use it now.

[Heartless]

Well since I have not used my ability ... why would you expect to see it?

See the previous post.

[Heartless]

Does anti still hold the view that AJ is town via setup spec?

I'm getting him on it.
I don't think scum having a jailkeeper would be balanced.

[Heartless]

The LAMIST I'd bet the game on it is pretty obv scum hoping to save their partner and get a mislynch in probable MYLO.

I imagine an ability like yours has a MYLO/LYLO clause.
That's why I'm telling you to use it.

[Heartless]

I have no idea where Fire got the Rogue One crew call signs by the way.

[Heartless]

It doesn't.

That's odd.

[Heartless]

I doubt anyone's lying about what their character ability is.

[Heartless]

I felt like he was being genuine when he first got waggoned as was all like "I spent hours reading this game!"

He probably was but that doesn't make me think he's town.

[Heartless]

My read on Mastin at this point is basically formed by him being pushed by my top two scum suspects since I replaced in. One of whom throws off obv scum with every post but is letting the other fight his battles for him.

So who else besides Nero and zefiend do you think is scum?

[Heartless]

To formulate reads.
Why would they not?

[Heartless]

I don't think I would support a lynch other than MoI today.
I'll wait for Anti's verdict on the setup, but my first impression is all the claimed specials are probably town.

[Heartless]

???? So you think we are all town? We all have claimed specials. I don't get it.

Excluding the character abilities. Obviously. >_>

[Heartless]

Also Mastins claim is fake as shit. "If we lynch this random person something random (BUT GOOD!) will happen. I don't know who is is so we just gotta keep lynching" This is the same witch that offered Hansel and Gretel dinner and then tried to bake them. Don't fall for it.

I was thinking about how that would work and I never got to a completely satisfying conclusion.

Spoiler: Warning, Contains Rogue One Plot Spoilers

Assuming the claim is real, my first thought was maybe the way it was supposed to work is that a certain Imperial had to die before Leia got the plans. I would think Krennic would fit the bill there, but mastina didn't say anything happened when Pine died. :S
Maybe Vader could work?

[Heartless]

I don't really want to click on the spoil. I haven't seen the movie yet, There's nothing game relevant to it right?

Nothing pressing.
Go see the movie!

[Heartless]

(DP wonders if NEro just fucked up his claim with the Rogue Four)

I'd also like to point out that one of the reasons that PV was lynched was b/c his call sign is wrong . I understand that having two players with identical call signs isn't the same thing but I mean isn't it possible Fire just made a mistake?

I''ve Googled it and I'm scouring Wookiepedia right now and I still haven't found where Fire got the call signs for the Rogue crew.

[Heartless]

I suppose they could've been referring to each other by these calls signs during the battle and I was just too distracted by everything else to notice.
Even so, I would

have

to think that some nerd would painstakingly chart that out somewhere. They did it for Blue Squadron.

[Heartless]

Does anti still hold the view that AJ is town via setup spec?

yep

gotta run now and i'll get back to this but that's the short answer

[Heartless]

there's a bit of town power here, but it's mostly concentrated on a few ppl. scum already have TWO known ways to shut it down (factional nk + vanillaizer). having a third way is not balanced. that is not something fire would think is ok and it's not something rc would pass.

as iffy as play may be, aj and molla are prob town.

[Heartless]

VOTE: MoI

[Heartless]

Basically at this point I have to convince Zfiend that he was wrong on Titus.

Why don't you go ahead and try doing that?

[Heartless]

@Heartless. He's the ONLY full role in a sea of x-shots, that alone should give you pause. I think it also makes a TON of sense to give scum an unlimited blocking power.

holy shit nero no it doesn't. i didn't just fall off the fucking turnip truck, i've run setups for years and i know that whenever you give GENERAL counters (like roleblockers) town power has to be high AND widely distributed. you can't have a clusterfuck of power over a few people and then give scum TWO general counter roles, that's FUCKING NUTS.

and this effect is WELL DOCUMENTED http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67307

in case you don't want to read all that, just skip down to when hoopla talks about roleblockers and how they BLOW THE TOWN EV TO SHIT

the "x-shot" point isn't good either, that would actually indicate the full power IS town unless you're suggesting hampered town roles are going up against a scumteam on fucking viagra

the 2-shot vig and dp's joat is fucking IT for fixed town power. molla's role is middling to weak and all the little shit character abilities are p much power neutral. then you have the rogue crew invention which is not guaranteed to go to town AND scum have the power to at least spy on the rogue crew for a night. add all that up and it's also a middling role.

so you're saying a large with a grand total of TWO decent power roles going up against TWO general counters sounds balanced?

no

not in any universe where firebringer wants to retain the ability to run any more games

this is not a tit-for-tat thing. the town EV in the 14:3 and 13:4 ratios is 20-30%. town. need. more. power.

scum having a full blocking ability does not make ANY sense.

[Heartless]

aj, you wanna take another swing at the titus townread?

earlier, you cited the early game so i went back. i see pine made a throw away vote on the tail end of the RVS and then a "moar titus votes" post later. on titus' end... i'm not seeing anything to suggest they wouldn't be buddies.

[Heartless]

That seems rather townsided to me

and here's the reason large themes have embarrassingly low town win rates...

[Heartless]

inventions are spent. dp said as much yesterday

[Heartless]

The dispersion of powers and claims makes me fairly confident about my guess that one of AJ/BB is scum.

is that right?

and what is this confidence based on?

[Heartless]

We are lynching Mastina tomorrow. No questions asked.

Flavor name is Saw Gerrara, rebel extremist. Haven't used 1-shot ability.

Have two full busy days ahead of me so I won't be quite active. Basically, I still want mastina dead, and MOI is full of shit. Either Titus was pocketing me the entire time and MOI just thinks it's easier to mislynch me (unlikely but possible) OR he's tunneling me like Infinity was and there's a chance we can talk it out (seems that way given his other interactions/hunting).

No need to convince me of anything, really. The dispersion of powers and claims makes me fairly confident about my guess that one of AJ/BB is scum. And with mastina's constant pushing on BB, it's pretty obvious who I think it is. AJ and MOI have actively engaged in vote-parking on me because I was a fairly attackable mislynch when heartless and Infinity were pressuring me hard. It's probably no coincidence that mastina constantly calls me (and other townies) scum, but avoids wagons at all costs.

mastina + MOI + AJ is where I'm at right now.

VOTE: MOI

these are SUCCESSIVE posts

[Heartless]

holy fuck that is just heinous. hold on a sec.

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

don't give me that nero, that does not even come CLOSE to proving zefiend is town

1) the jk said in advance he would be protecting us, 2) the OUTED investigative would obviously go ahead of us regarding reads

titus being the other scum WOULD explain why infinity would go ahead of us, yes

that slot being scum STILL doesn't make zefiend town

[Heartless]

We are lynching Mastina tomorrow. No questions asked.

Flavor name is Saw Gerrara, rebel extremist. Haven't used 1-shot ability.

Have two full busy days ahead of me so I won't be quite active. Basically, I still want mastina dead, and MOI is full of shit. Either Titus was pocketing me the entire time and MOI just thinks it's easier to mislynch me (unlikely but possible) OR he's tunneling me like Infinity was and there's a chance we can talk it out (seems that way given his other interactions/hunting).

No need to convince me of anything, really. The dispersion of powers and claims makes me fairly confident about my guess that one of AJ/BB is scum. And with mastina's constant pushing on BB, it's pretty obvious who I think it is. AJ and MOI have actively engaged in vote-parking on me because I was a fairly attackable mislynch when heartless and Infinity were pressuring me hard. It's probably no coincidence that mastina constantly calls me (and other townies) scum, but avoids wagons at all costs.

mastina + MOI + AJ is where I'm at right now.

VOTE: MOI

these are SUCCESSIVE posts

WHAT IS THE DEFENSE FOR THIS, NERO?

[Heartless]

VOTE: MoI
Executive override of the hysterical drama king.

zefiend's move is not surprising.

[Heartless]

That said,

WHAT IS THE DEFENSE FOR THIS, NERO?

There isn't one. Of course the "talking out" of Post 3592 didn't happen. It was never going to happen. The "read" changed as the situation demanded.

[Heartless]

Yeah … given your “MoI must be lynched today” what do you think this will accomplish if I am scum to you. I have two viable scum suspects. Are you asking me to call the whole team? That’s busywork.

This is not a town attitude.

[Heartless]

Mastin I automatically want to scum read for her playstyle and past issues. For her to be scum the push on her by both Zefield and Nero would be bussing. Possible I guess but suboptimal play. Maybe the fact that Mastin isn’t getting pressure at all opens the door on that more … will see if Mastin joins my wagon.

Nothing about mastina's interactions with Pine was of any note to you?
I'm unsaturated.

[Heartless]

And unsatisfied. That too. @_@

[Heartless]

Yes it is. Find me a game where in MYLO going out of your way to call the scum team results in good things for Town. All it does is allows for scum to make sure that any mis-reads on teams are capitalized on.

Do you disagree with my read on Zefiend? If you do and want to discuss I’m certainly down with that.
Do you disagree with my read on Nero? Same offer applies.

But don’t grandstand me for not saying “Here are the three scum BAM”. I don’t operate that way and probably you should know that regardless of which head this is …

We don't disagree with your zefiend read.
We do disagree with your Nero read.

I'll go back to something mastina brought up a while ago.

you

KNOW

this is townNero so why would a presumably townMastin pretend like she doesn't know that?

To be honest: I need to refresh my memory on your scumgame.

Like.

It used to be simple.

You and Antihero both had the same tell: lurking. It was a very strong, VERY reliable tell. You lurked, you were scum; you did stuff, you weren't scum.

Tell me, does that tell still hold true?

I did some research and the short answer is "yes."
The longer, more detailed answer is that in the recent past, Nero does appear to struggle as scum a little bit. Here's three recent town games of his: Street Fighter, Mini Normal 1829, and Mini 1839. In all of them, he was one of the top posters. Even in the mini games, he racked up a post count in the triple digits. Contrast this to recent scumgames: Dragon Age Mafia (part of the 100 Percent Ego hydra), Mini 1848, and Large Normal 199. In those, he's doesn't get beyond the middle of the pack in the activity overview. In two of them, he's below even the mod.

I looked over his ISOs from the scum games and it looks like Nero attempts to project an "aggressive" tone at points, but overall they're relatively meek. Probably most strikingly, I don't really see Nero's indignation at not being followed (Post 3511 among others) fitting into his scum game. I also don't think Nero would kill Infinity. Infinity wasn't scumreading Nero and likely wouldn't be in the near future. Drunken Piper would've been a much more immediate threat.

@Heartless – How in the hell are you floating Mastin interactions re: Pine at me with Nero’s completely scummy Day 1-2 interactions and Aero’s complete active lurking / lack of any read on Pine?

We think mastina is town, mostly due to her interactions with Pine. The reason I'm pestering you is see what

you

have to say.

[Heartless]

Get better mastina! <3
Health is more important than a dumb internet game.

[Heartless]

As for your Nero meta read – meh. He was scum in Death Note Mafia and in the top 7 posters for the entire game despite being lynched Day 1. How did this game escape your meta read?

he was sk there. we were looking @ single ball.

sk meta is going to be closer to town meta than scum meta anyway

[Heartless]

I don’t see Town is his attacking everyone for suspecting Pine Day 1 and Day 2.

^what's the narrative w this?

[Heartless]

Do you think Zefiend and I are partners? I mean … the fact that you have your vote parked on me says you do given the above but I’d like confirmation that is what you think.

yep

[Heartless]

We think mastina is town, mostly due to her interactions with Pine. The reason I'm pestering you is see what you have to say.

Which interactions in particular

IN GENERAL

first, in general, i don't think it's likely mastin would bus here the way she did. bussing should really only be done when absolutely necessary, when there's no way you won't get away with NOT doing it. in this case, mastin probably just would've entered calling pine town. being scum and having a buddy not be scumread is a LUXURY, one that you don't just throw away. mastin knows this.

IN PARTICULAR

i think it'd be difficult for ginpine and mastina to pull of what they did as scum theater.

here's gin's first reaction:

How do you look at blank votes and pick what is town and what isn't town?

/Gin

no mention of mastina's pine read (so it won't LOOK like an omgus, and why would he care about that? if she's town and he's scum.)

he undercuts mastina's process and way of going about giving reads. he doesn't go after mastina herself. he goes after her credibility. that's how you deal w a real threat bc regardless of if ppl town or scumread mastin they need to think her reads can't be trusted.

then comes pine's reaction (where he takes this almost-taunting tone... which is itself kind of telling)

So continues the hilariously long history of Mastina being completely unable to read me correct. At least she's Town this game.

Pine

Boring game is boring. Star Wars should not be boring. Moar Titus votes.

Fuckit.

VOTE: Pine.
When I get a chance to lynch a scum Pine.

Yer damn right I'm gonna take that chance to lynch his scummy ass.

Waaaait...Mastina's here too...

Why does my pc break when all the legends are here?

Yeah, right?

At least she's Town this game.

Yes I am! You, however, are your usual scumfuck self!

Which should really tell you that I'm Town. Come on, Mastina, you know as well as I do that your instincts with me are routinely backwards.

it's a little bit of a different approach then gin, but it works towards the same goal: get across the message that mastin's read cannot be trusted.

why use this approach and do this if they knew the read was bullshit anyway?

they wouldn't.

[Heartless]

Heartless, do you have any reason to suspect MOI over Zefiend or care what order?

no to both

[Heartless]

Honestly I don't have a TWIE read because he's been so off the radar and unimportant.

these things are true

BUT we were thinking

huh.

2 kills with dead vig is interesting.

about day 3 daybreak.

he noted the extra kill when and if he were scum he would have already known where the extra kill came from. the double post in quick succession comes off as a genuine musing and why would you bother faking a "townslip" when only the rogue crew could've known it was a "townslip" at the time

more likely twie's town

[Heartless]

the one seemingly-town post Moi had

???

this was...?

[Heartless]

3725

I like the arguments against Nero and felt that Nero not addressing more of it was sad.

do you? what about them?

i think they're a loose collection of things that are supposed to be "incriminating" but don't really make a good cohesive narrative. is the point that nero was making a concerted effort to sabotage the pine wagon? bc i'm not really buying into that. the "chainsawing" we're supposed to assume here looks a lot more like an artifact of nero tunneling mastin.

[Heartless]

Just as a note, mastin has hard bussed before, and I could feasibly see mastin planning a bus on Pine as a way to ensure town cred for one of them.

oh wow i am not as confident in my mastin read as i was...

[Heartless]

So today is dragging out and I basically have little care at this point. If you are going to push through an obviously scum driven mislynch and lose the game go ahead and do so. This serves as my pre-emptive “I told you so” to Town (basically Heartless) on my wagon.

Your AtE doesn't move me.
As far as I can tell, Nero is the only one townreading zefiend and we're the only person voting you that you're townreading. Hardly the situation to resign yourself to a lynch.

What sort of junk question is this?

The sort junky people like us ask.
Your story is that Nero "chainsawed" for Pine, but I don't think there's much evidence to sustain it. Nero didn't badger Anti, Klingon, or Infinity for voting Pine. He never called Pine town. The reason he gave for quoting mastina's Pine vote and called it "scum" was that mastina was scumreading Cakez, Nero's scumread at the time, but voting elsewhere. The narrative that makes the most sense to us here is that Nero was scumreading mastin and that was the dominant factor to his Day 1 pushes, not a defense of Pine. The fact mastina was scumreading Pine seems coincidental.

[Heartless]

Seems like a really dumb reason to claim. And in my opinion, it is most certainly not possible for yours and BBmolla's claimed roles to both be town, unless scum has some gigantic ability.

yeah what could that possibly be...?

Imperial 2 Shot Vanillizer

[Heartless]

and how did you arrive at the moi read, precisely?

Flavor name is Saw Gerrara, rebel extremist. Haven't used 1-shot ability.

Have two full busy days ahead of me so I won't be quite active. Basically, I still want mastina dead, and MOI is full of shit. Either Titus was pocketing me the entire time and MOI just thinks it's easier to mislynch me (unlikely but possible) OR he's tunneling me like Infinity was and there's a chance we can talk it out (seems that way given his other interactions/hunting).

No need to convince me of anything, really. The dispersion of powers and claims makes me fairly confident about my guess that one of AJ/BB is scum. And with mastina's constant pushing on BB, it's pretty obvious who I think it is. AJ and MOI have actively engaged in vote-parking on me because I was a fairly attackable mislynch when heartless and Infinity were pressuring me hard. It's probably no coincidence that mastina constantly calls me (and other townies) scum, but avoids wagons at all costs.

mastina + MOI + AJ is where I'm at right now.

VOTE: MOI

i see no progression between these two posts. suddenly moi is scummy for voting you but he was voting you/calling you scum all of yesterday so what's suddenly scummy about it now?

[Heartless]

/sigh

we're really doing this?

[Heartless]

i guess

what was the game?

[Heartless]

i don't see the unlimited vanillaizer

[Heartless]

Simplicity is Best (Simplifier): Each night you may target one player, simplifying them into a Vanilla Townie for that night and the following day.

ok so first off it was not a "full vanillaizer" since i'm assuming whoever was targeted reverted back to their original role after the time period. this is more like a roleblocker.

second, the game was FUCKING ROLE MADNESS. there may not have been any town "blocking" power but it had beaucoup power elsewhere

"one of claimed blockers has to be scum" does not follow

[Heartless]

Sure it does. You just said it acts like a roleblocker so it would make sense for each side to have one roleblocker-esque ability instead of Town having two.

@Heartless. He's the ONLY full role in a sea of x-shots, that alone should give you pause. I think it also makes a TON of sense to give scum an unlimited blocking power.

holy shit nero no it doesn't. i didn't just fall off the fucking turnip truck, i've run setups for years and i know that whenever you give GENERAL counters (like roleblockers) town power has to be high AND widely distributed. you can't have a clusterfuck of power over a few people and then give scum TWO general counter roles, that's FUCKING NUTS.

and this effect is WELL DOCUMENTED http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=67307

in case you don't want to read all that, just skip down to when hoopla talks about roleblockers and how they BLOW THE TOWN EV TO SHIT

the "x-shot" point isn't good either, that would actually indicate the full power IS town unless you're suggesting hampered town roles are going up against a scumteam on fucking viagra

the 2-shot vig and dp's joat is fucking IT for fixed town power. molla's role is middling to weak and all the little shit character abilities are p much power neutral. then you have the rogue crew invention which is not guaranteed to go to town AND scum have the power to at least spy on the rogue crew for a night. add all that up and it's also a middling role.

so you're saying a large with a grand total of TWO decent power roles going up against TWO general counters sounds balanced?

no

not in any universe where firebringer wants to retain the ability to run any more games

this is not a tit-for-tat thing. the town EV in the 14:3 and 13:4 ratios is 20-30%. town. need. more. power.

scum having a full blocking ability does not make ANY sense.

[Heartless]

i don't even know what the fuck you're saying anyway. PINE'S ALREADY FLIPPED

what's you're saying is that scum have TWO "blocking" roles as opposed to town's one (molla's isn't even really "blocking" it's protective but whatever)

so you're arguing that one of molla/aj is scum bc scum need MORE blocking power than town?

bull

shit

[Heartless]

Spoiler:

1 scum 2-shot vanillaizer
1 scum jk
2 scum goons

1 2-shot vig
1 investigative joat
1 manipulative joat
10 vt

this is not balanced
this is not balanced
this is not balanced
this is not balanced
ANYWHERE ANYHOW

you don't give TWO general counters against three PRs
that will NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER pass rc's inspection

ever

Spoiler:

1 scum 2-shot vanillaizer
1 scum manipulative joat
2 scum goons

1 2-shot vig
1 investigative joat
1 jk
10 vt

also not balanced. for the exact same reasons that i've already talked about.
plus the manipuative joat can hijack a town kill and turn it into a scum kill? rc lets that by? no. no fucking way.

FUCK

turn a goon into a vt in each of those setups. still not balanced. scum win 80%+ in those setups. easily.

bbmolla/aj dichotomy
is
crap

[Heartless]

Lets even count PV as a scum kill b/c it was their message that framed PV.

holy

shit

[Heartless]

don't forget all the RC skills.

STILL not balanced

[Heartless]

Besides Kling who was Desp pushing? AJ.

titus interactions were also less-than-favorable

[Heartless]

and he was on the rogue crew so it would stand to reason he would get an invention

[Heartless]

titus

[Heartless]

You're getting distracted by shiny objects, AJ.
What do you think of MoI's departure from the thread?

[Heartless]

It's a check+effect. Hardly investigative considering Peregrine's thing.

peregrine's thing?

[Heartless]

I'll wait for Anti's verdict on the setup, but my first impression is all the claimed specials are probably town.

That would require:
-zefiend, MoI, Nero as a scumteam (which I don't think I need to tell you why I find unlikely), OR:
-zefined, TWIE, one of Nero/MoI as a scumteam.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see any of those three combos as being likely.
I'll do full pair analysis when I have the chance (probably not tonight), but I just really think that Molla is scum.
zefiend, Molla, and then a third (most likely one of MoI/Nero) is what makes the most sense to me.

what if there's only 2 scum?

[Heartless]

there's a bit of town power here, but it's mostly concentrated on a few ppl. scum already have TWO known ways to shut it down (factional nk + vanillaizer).

I think you overvalue the importance of the scum's NK when it comes to PR balance.

I know the strength of the scum NK for GENERAL balance, but I do not think mhsmith or RadiantCowbells or Firebringer account for the basic fundamental mafia ability when it comes to other roles--basically, YOU say that the scum's nightkill is a way to shut down town power. While

technically

true, I don't see this as being a balance concern. It never crops up in any review I've ever done as far as I can remember. It simply isn't talked about.

So no. I don't think it's two ways. I think it's one gated way: a limited-shot vanillaizer.

you know, maybe you're right. maybe i'm the only one that accounts for scum nk in power levels.

but i do think there's a more general awareness among ppl now about what exactly constitutes appropriate power even though they may not have pinpointed the exact reasons we got it wrong in the past (among which, imo, IS ignoring the power of the factional kill and just treating it as power neutral). those people would include smith, RC, and firebringer. ESPECIALLY the 2 on the nrg

[Heartless]

you can't have a clusterfuck of power over a few people and then give scum TWO general counter roles, that's FUCKING NUTS.

This is true! AJ the Epic is, as a result, town. (As if there was ever any doubt.)

But what about one gated general counter role, and a second very specific situational gated counter role?

molla's role is middling to weak

Exactly!

errrrrrrrrr it's a middling to weak town role

as a scum role it would be stronger

the rolestop creates a strongman/ascetic. the deflect and redirect thwart the investigative and the jailkeeper AND could take a vig kill on scum and turn it into a dead townie

there's quite a bit of swing at play there.

i guess i'm also not really willing to believe the interaction w the vig that would create. i mean... redirect + reflect would just be a total "screw you," game-wrecking type of interaction.

unless you're wanting to infuriate your players into never signing up for one of your games again, you don't include an interaction like that

[Heartless]

Two scum, three scum, doesn't matter.
zefiend is scum on any given scumteam.
MoI is only scum in select circumstances.

So we REALLY should be lynching zefiend first. I don't understand why you're on MoI.

bc moi is the place nero and our reads meet

[Heartless]

but I also don't normally make anything of sudden appearances/disappearances due to not knowing RL situations.

disappearance is not site-wide

[Heartless]

So we REALLY should be lynching zefiend first. I don't understand why you're on MoI.

Honestly, I would rather not bull through a lynch without Nero since he feels like he's not being listened to and I sort of feel bad he's been scumreading Titus all this time and hasn't gotten what he wanted.
That said, we're both confident it's zefiend-MoI/Titus. Nobody else makes sense as scum. TWIE is probably the person I'm going furthest out on a limb for but Anti thinks his interaction is Pine is more likely town and I still think his Day 3 opener is town.

If molla or TWIE thinks zefiend is a better option today, I'll switch.

[Heartless]

im scumreading both of them so...

So... what? Are you scumreading anyone else?
I'm fairly certain that between the two of us we've talked about all our townreads on every other slot in at least some detail. We can talk it out more if anyone has any questions.

[Heartless]

pretty sure she just did that (molla + zefiend)

u awake?

pedit nero beat me to it

[Heartless]

Been down lately so haven't been feeling mafia

Is there a world where MoI isn't scum?

Prodding MagnaofIllusion.

no

[Heartless]

bc moi is the place nero and our reads meet

And if Nero is scum and MoI is town? What then?

I don't think so, Nero's not a question mark for me. That's the read I'm probably most confident on and I talk more about it here.

[Heartless]

I'm not town reading zefiend, I have mixed feelings. But I'm having trouble placing him in a team.

with moi?

what's the trouble?

[Heartless]

no that's what i'm saying

what would be the trouble w/ a z+moi scumteam?

[Heartless]

Both the wagons today being scum would be fucking weird no? They're so close to victory, why bus?

Because if scum isn't either moi or zefiend who could scum possibly get lynched today?

TWIE's on the right track. They would need the exact same number of mislynches regardless of if they bussed or not. I would expect someone like MoI, who is expected to have good reads, to bus, make associatives with a townie (Nero), and then ride the momentum off a scumflip rather than bet all the marbles on saving zefiend and try to bail a heavily suspected buddy out. From the looks of the early day, zefiend was planning on laying back and taking it (Post 3952). But the plan changed as suddenly as his vote did once it was clear Nero and I weren't backing down. He can't afford not to be on the wagon and he's already got his AJ and mastina attacks locked and loaded.

If you're still not seeing it, I urge you to go back and look at how much energy Titus put into defending zefiend a couple days ago. Spoiler: it's a lot and she didn't pull the punches on the emotional baggage which she probably knows is Anti's weak spot.

[Heartless]

Or Post 3592.

[Heartless]

Go ahead

[Heartless]

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

Anti and I need to talk about Molla.

[Heartless]

Was there a point to poking at that?

[Heartless]

We still have four days and some change until deadline and I want to get this right.

Up to now, we've given Molla a pass based on setup speculation. While I'm inclined to agree with Anti that Molla's claimed role being scum wouldn't produce a balanced setup, I'm not certain Firebringer would agree especially if the scumteam started out at three.

Setting that aside, I don't like Molla's recent posting. I get the sinking feeling he's trying to delicately finesse his way on the wagon. Looking back, there's really nothing redemptive about his play and zefiend's position regarding Molla doesn't help.

[Heartless]

A jailkeeper is a pretty powerful deterrent to a quickhammer in MYLO.

[Heartless]

Why would it just today occur to you that mastina might be scum? The feeling I got for most of this game is that you thought she was town genuinely making a bad read and you've been trying to talk her out of it.
Also, what changed your mind on AJ?

[Heartless]

i'll tell ya'll the same thing i told tth. it's not just about balance. molla's role leads to bad interactions with a town vig. and... well it is about balance too bc as it stands there's not enough claimed town power to justify giving scum both a vanillaizer and molla's role.

time to take the leap

VOTE: moi

[Heartless]

VOTE: molla

[Heartless]

hm....

an unconventional nk for zefiend

[Heartless]

learn anything from your character ability check zefiend?

[Heartless]

VOTE: molla

[Heartless]

Molla was unable to make that kill.

hm....

an unconventional nk for zefiend

Come on guys, use your heads.

1- shot Deflect, 1-shot Redirect, 1-shot Rolestop

[Heartless]

When I looked back at Titus' ISO, I realized she spent an

enormous

amount of time and effort defending the narrative that the vanillize

cleared

Molla as town.

Some highlights:

Now, why would you want to rope me and Rolefish BBMolla? Scum vanillaizing themselves isn't even moonlogicky enough for me.

As for whose scum, I haven't been terribly accurate in any of my recent games. I'm actually tempted to say Mastina, while good, isn't THAT good but I know RVS is actually one of those areas you can pick up a tell in and catch people unaware really easily. Just... Don't think Pine did anything suspicious in RVS. I'm still bothered with Molla to an extent, I want a claim to back up his vanilized talk. Really that's what I'm running off of right now.

Ok, let me explain something to you.
Yesterday's lynch of Pine happened because there was a hint/flirtation/claim of a guilty.
BBMolla claimed vanillaized before the guilty was announced.
If the claim was after, we could argue that BBMolla was taking advantage of the scumteam's impending loss of Pine to fakeclaim vanillaized. Otherwise, a vanillaized fakeclaim just costs them a use down the line.

Second, claiming his role helps scum PoE. Knock this off.

okay, just spent an hour minus a half
reading Infinity's ISO to see if he is aligned on scum's behalf.

I dont really think so, or at least it doesnt make sense.
I think I am just bothered about the Bolla defense.

I also think tonight I should be the leader.

unless someone has a counter point and that post I will be a reader.

I read AJ and there was no (little?) interaction with Pine.
Pine only mentioned AJ when asking people's thoughts of him.

sips wine

before I vote, Titus I have a question for you.

I thought you were just straight up derailing Infinity wagon with your pride.

By the way, loved your scumchat scene but that only takes place if Scum!BB knew scum!Pine was going down. Yet BB claimed first. Do you have any evidence suggesting scum knew you had a guilty over stubborn pride?

If you fuckers are going to lynch Molla, that will make this game unplayable for me in most regards. I am bet my life levels of confident Molla is town, and I lack the time or inclination to read through mountains of garbage when the truth is obvious.

No scum would fake being vanillaized before DP revealed his guilty.

So present me evidence of BBMolla knowing (which likely means scum in the hood) or this is just another distraction from Infinity scum or protecting Infinity scum.

DP, for BBMolla scum (which you leave open) you would nearly certain need someone to inform him of your cop check. You are not acting like that is a possibility. You are postulating that BBMolla scum and keeping the hood the same, which violates Occam's Razor.

Meanwhile, BBMolla is being a dumbass for claiming, so I cannot elect him Rogue Leader.

AJ is pants on head reading Molla today but right on Nero being a vindictive sack of shit, like he is regardless of alignment.

No one else is bothering with the spam those two put in the thread.


So tell me, who the fuck will take out the trash of Infinity and Nero along with them not playing Pants on Head level stupid? Yeah, I would vote that for Rogue Leader. Guess what, my townreads are also my dumb as fuck reads. So yeah, you are not getting my vote for Rogue Leader. No one is. I need to see intelligence and logical coherence, even if I disagree with it to vote Rogue Leader.

Right now, I just don't.

That would limit, by Occam's Razor, that BBMolla was town unless DP told of his guilty to scum in adavance via the starship. The mod could say put in a role that has scum directly ccing DP, but I find that unlikely. Otherwise, there's no way for scum to know that Pine was going down prior to BBMolla's claim. Thus, BBMolla town is extremely likely or BBMolla scum means Starship scum and Pine invaded a group that already had a member. The sheer level of justifications needed and to what extremes means BBMolla is town.

That's a very oversimplistic view of my personality. I do actually scrutinize who joins when and what reason. That's why we're even talking rather than me saying yes.

What's unhealthy is refusing to listen to evidence and adjust, which is what most of the thread appears do be doing.

Let's lynch The Thinker. He flips town.
Let's lynch Klingon. She's town.
Let's lynch BBMolla, and he's damn near conftown.

So am I supposed to wait for more dumb errors and compromise when the majority is systemically wrong?

You get the idea. There's more, all you have to do is go to Titus' ISO and use the "find word" function on Molla.
She was staunchly against Molla being forced to claim and she fought tooth-and-nail to give Molla's "vanillize" story credence. This goes beyond a simple whiteknighting effort, that's what she did for Klingon and that was mild compared to the fuss she put up over Molla. The premise for Molla being confirmed town is, of course, a crock. Knowing about the guilty was immaterial to the vanillize claim. All that would've been necessary for the gambit to work were people claiming to be vanillized and no vanillizer claim; the immediate implication would be that the vanillizer is scum and the vanillized is/are town.

There's these nuggets from MoI:

So this makes me feel that BB might just be playing terrible given that I doubt Nero scum puts both his partners in his “these players are probably Town” and Zefiend is pretty clearly scum.

So BBMolla claims Vanillaized … I don’t think scum wasted a shot of that limited ability created a clear for a partner. So unless I come across reason to doubt it happened I don’t see him as scum and think that reflects pretty poorly on Mastin still pushing his lynch even today.

Then there's Molla himself. He's pretty much coasted this entire game while intermittently attempting to diffuse mastina's scumread on him. The narrative he's trying to prop up is a load of crap anyway:

but I'd be cleaner about it mastina, I'd bus Pine

that's like double confirmed town, pushed lynch on the vanillaizer when I'm vanillaized?

you're just ignoring all the things like this, it would be more flawless if I was scum. it's messy looking cause I'm town

Oh, bullshit. He'd bus a vanillizer with shots left rather than let someone else get vanillized to lend credence to his story

while

retaining the utility of the vanillizer? I don't believe that.

As I already talked about a little yesterday, I don't buy that Molla is

just now

coming around to the realization mastina could be scum. Nero's been hammering that theory forever now and with that game he had handy to show to us, I would have to think Molla would be skeptical of mastina's alignment a lot sooner than endgame. The AJ read suddenly mellowing sounds pretty bullshit-y too.

I also think his MoI vote was a bus. TWIE noted the weirdness in logical progression it at the time.

how about if you're town reading zefiend and scumreading MOI you just say that instead of trying to work around to it like you havent made up your mind about it.

I'm not town reading zefiend, I have mixed feelings. But I'm having trouble placing him in a team.

If you'd fucking ask instead of responding with garbage posts you could find these things out

fucking lol

im the one making garbage posts?

what team is zefiend precluded from being on?

if hes scum start the fucking team with him.

Molla was trying to build up a "logical case" on the slot, precisely so that it

didn't

look like a bus.

Molla's scum. Lynch him for victory.

[Heartless]

i see zefiend at the bottom

but no results in the thread...

[Heartless]

Any one of those would've thwarted a jailkeep. You should ask the mod if you would be notified of a redirect or deflect but self-targeting with the rolestop functionally makes him a strongman and there's no reason you would've been notified of that.

[Heartless]

what tripped that, mastin? did fire tell you?

[Heartless]

Seems like a really dumb reason to claim. And in my opinion, it is most certainly not possible for yours and BBmolla's claimed roles to both be town, unless scum has some gigantic ability.

:trollface:

VOTE: zefiend

[Heartless]

nah, i think it's legit. i'm just wondering if vader's death caused it or that means it's down to 1 scum.

Spoiler: plot spoilers

vader's death would make sense as a trigger, that's what tth thought earlier anyway. he was chasing leia as the movie ended so vader dying --> plans secure makes sense.

[Heartless]

Well, 13 v 4 also had a number of quirks. First, it was a very low-power scumteam. We had a 1-shot strongman, plus a group power we could activate to get one of three 1-shots, though that also gave Town a 1-shot. Plus, one of our team was a Lover with Town, which is a negative utility role. So I don't know; I could buy a 14:3 from Firebringer in a power-heavy game, he likes his scumteams relatively weak.

regardless, i think pine tipped his hand here and it is down to 1

[Heartless]

what does?

[Heartless]

oh I guess this is anti.

you think 3 scum with vanillas and death star is balanced?

yep this is me

my pet theory is that scum got an x-shot or otherwise gated rolecop to complement the vanillaizer, but i don't have anything other than game designers intuition to back that up.

but even if they don't vanillaizer + death star is pretty close to balanced. those death star abilities are potent (the WHOLE scumteam can go bp or invisible...yeeps)

[Heartless]

seems kinda rough for scum there.

that's bc your (and most ppl's) idea of balanced is in fact scumsided

[Heartless]

but if all your power was deathstar and 2 shot vanillaizer it seems real loose to have shot BB in the dark n1.

was thinking about that and it was one of the things feeding into my molla paranoia

they might've gotten spooked by how much backlash they initially got for breaking into the rogue crew. they also could've thought they had a good PR tell i guess?

it does seem suboptimal but there are a couple plausible reasons for it

i mean... u could say the same for the nks tbh

[Heartless]

seems kinda rough for scum there.

that's bc your (and most ppl's) idea of balanced is in fact scumsided

I mean maybe. i dont design games either, i just play them. and this game is on the smaller side for games i normally play in.

don't get me wrong i'm not saying it to be snooty. it's just a fact that most players' idea of balanced is actually scumsided and the data back me up on that. ESPECIALLY large themes. zoraster does an md thread on large theme stats once in a while and scum win rates are consistently high

it's a way the site meta is improving bc ppl (esp the NRG, which firebringer is a part of) are now becoming cognizant of it and keep that in mind when designing setups

[Heartless]

they might've gotten spooked by how much backlash they initially got for breaking into the rogue crew. they also could've thought they had a good PR tell i guess?

from the crew you mean?

yeah i hadnt considered that.

yeah

[Heartless]

soooooo... you DIDN'T use your character ability check on mastina?

[Heartless]

not buyin it

[Heartless]

plus nero said he already used it so...

nah

[Heartless]

the hydra ban predates my admission to the nrg by about a year. they just weren't as evolved and sophisticated back then as we are now.

now if you'll excuse me i have to go fart on all the elevators before ppl start heading out to lunch. seeya later

[Heartless]

boost + check was the claim

I'm here. Gonna be busy with class and reports all day so I'll get to this tonight.

Dunno if I'm at L-1 or what's going on since I haven't skimmed yet... I'm VT. Character special ability is a 1-shot boost to target's character special ability. I also identify the base character special ability of my target.

[Heartless]

ok

[Heartless]

[Heartless]

/yawn

===[]
[]===

[Heartless]

Back Up Moderater: RadiantCowwalker
Reviewers: Mhsmith0
Special Thanks To: My reviewers, they are the real heroes. Thanks Andrius and mhsmith0

no

there are no heroes here

[Heartless]

Aj The Epic did not survive the night!

Spoiler: Aj The Epic ROLE PM

Welcome! You are

Mon Mothma

, Rebel Senator ,

Jailkeeper

.

You are aligned with the

Rebel Alliance

.

You are a politician serving to try to keep the rebel alliance together by maintaining order and balance.

Abilities:

Vote - You can vote during the day.
Jailkeeper- At night you can select a player to stop any actions they perform and any actions performed on them.

Character Special Ability

You have no character special ability[/center]

Win Condition:
You win when the Empire has been eliminated.

He Left a Last Will

Spoiler: Last Will

BBmolla was jailed

i have no idea if this is updated or not

probably not

[Heartless]

VOTE: molla

[Heartless]

either us or mastin goes then it's back to the same thing tomorrow

are both of us in question to you? bc that's the only way NL benefits

[Heartless]

yeah... it's called scumsidedness

[Heartless]

UNVOTE:

[Heartless]

No lynch is definitely the way to go here.

why do you think this setup is broken though, I'm curious

It's not necessarily

broken

and I don't think it's as unbalanced as Anti does, but the balance may be a little off. Scum got a considerable amount of power for town only getting a maximum of 5 powers, one of which being of questionable utility. :S
It's why we were toying with the idea of there being some form of traitor for a while. If that were the case, BBMolla would make sense as scum since he's been the one dragging his feet the most on the past couple lynches and his power on a fragmented scum team wouldn't completely break the balance. That said, I don't think it's that plausible that a traitor would not lose with the main team being eliminated. Isn't that the convention?

[Heartless]

Yes. The claimed Death Star powers seem like logical, plausible counters to town powers.
If mastina was lying about the abilities, she'd probably do it in a way that made scum appear weak to keep you in the lynch pool.

[Heartless]

i don't think it's a "strategy" i think this is just how twie is

[Heartless]

Alright-y.

Spoiler:

[Heartless]

VOTE: No Lynch