I have a feeling this is townsided purely on the fact that the town roles can claim to prove their identities (it's an Open). What about randomizing the town power roles as "3 of Cop, Miller Gunsmith, Miller Vanilla Cop, duplicates allowed"? I'm not sure whether that would be balanced but it seems closer.
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:19 am
by Creature
Could be. Should mafia roles be randomized too?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:22 am
by callforjudgement
That's much less important, as scum are unlikely to claim their actual roles! So I suspect it's less necessary, and might even add swing by increasing the number of setups you have to worry about.
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:24 am
by Creature
Could there be three of the same role?
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:54 am
by callforjudgement
I don't see a problem with that; it's an Open and players know it's a possibility, and the roles are similar in power level.
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:09 am
by Gamma Emerald
Looks interesting
Agree on the variations
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:24 am
by Umlaut
I like the general idea.
I agree that some variation would mitigate mass-claim strategies, but I'd be sort of annoyed to end up in a game with three of the same role. Maybe "choose three out of (2x Cop, 2x Miller Gunsmith, 2x Miller Vanilla Cop)"?
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:25 am
by Gamma Emerald
sure that would work
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:29 am
by Umlaut
At first I thought it would be kind of degenerate if there were a bunch of millers and godfathers running around with no cop to investigate them, but the millers and godfathers aren't really the point of the setup; the point is to have three different kinds of investigator with the property "guilty = 50% Mafia, 50% Town PR; innocent = probably VT, but maybe Mafia."
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:31 am
by Creature
Maybe make Town Cop a Miller too so all PRs will get incriminating results on each other.
Also, the point of the setup is to have some sort of night information without it being enough to clear the game.
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:33 am
by Gamma Emerald
cop is not vanilla and has a gun so being miller is unimportant
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:41 am
by Creature
If there are going to be duplicates. Gunsmiths get a "has a gun" result on other gunsmiths and Vanilla Cops get a "not vanilla" result on other Vanilla Cops.
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:42 am
by callforjudgement
I thought about this setup some more. I believe it's broken for town via hypocopping (allowing it to be mostly solved in a similar way to Dethy; probably not 100% win rate, but fairly high). I'm not sure how easily fixable this is.
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:42 am
by Umlaut
But in a setup with two cops you'd want them to get guilties on one another.
Likewise you want a gunsmith to have a gun in flavor.
Pedit: ninja'd by Creature.
Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 8:45 am
by Creature
In post 13, callforjudgement wrote:I thought about this setup some more. I believe it's broken for town via hypocopping (allowing it to be mostly solved in a similar way to Dethy; probably not 100% win rate, but fairly high). I'm not sure how easily fixable this is.
Maybe add a mechanism that harms town for claiming.
Other way to nerf would be 3 cops, each labelled A, B or C (but unaware and flipping just Town Cop), and then make each mafia immune for a certain label. The guilties can be trustable, but the innocents will never be fully trustable.
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:54 pm
by LlamaFluff
In post 13, callforjudgement wrote:I thought about this setup some more. I believe it's broken for town via hypocopping (allowing it to be mostly solved in a similar way to Dethy; probably not 100% win rate, but fairly high). I'm not sure how easily fixable this is.
That's what I was saying earlier. I think the correct play is to day one have the entire game claim "cop" or "not cop" which eliminates the downside of the town PRs getting a false guilty. Scum is going to have to live through two cop shots being successful N1, meaning that by the time they take down all the cops there will be three successful shots out.
You can also get very tricky with smart town and have a couple of players claim VT and then start no lynching. It might be a risk, but lets say you have three people claim VT (cops don't fake claim) and then you direct cops to all target within that pool while not lynching. Scum is shooting in the dark for a cop suddenly and if they miss, you have a large semi-clear group. You don't even need to hypo-claim the second day, just claim if you have a guilty. Rinse and repeat for D2/N2 cycle and then out everything. Scum likely are dealing with some sort of a 7:3 game with a minimum of three town clear.
I think you need a way for scum to create a false positive result instead of creating situations where town can play follow the cop and scum needs to be nearly perfect with NKs.
Creature wrote:
In post 13, callforjudgement wrote:I thought about this setup some more. I believe it's broken for town via hypocopping (allowing it to be mostly solved in a similar way to Dethy; probably not 100% win rate, but fairly high). I'm not sure how easily fixable this is.
Maybe add a mechanism that harms town for claiming.
Other way to nerf would be 3 cops, each labelled A, B or C (but unaware and flipping just Town Cop), and then make each mafia immune for a certain label. The guilties can be trustable, but the innocents will never be fully trustable.
Don't think it works well still. There is a *little* doubt but not a lot, scum would have to play a WIFOM move and let a cleared town live late. Just from a D2 standpoint where VT lynched/NKed a result is true in 90% of cases. Either way massclaim D1 I think ruins scum. If you want to be really tricky just...
D1 all three cops claim, all agree to target player X. Player X is caught or cleared as cop dies. So you remain with three confirmed town. Rinse and repeat targeting Y, D3 you enter with cop + knowing player X + nearly for sure knowing player Y.
Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 3:20 pm
by Creature
Would it be balanced if the setup could have 2 or 3 cops? (maybe make scum aware whether there are two or three cops)
Technically one scum would be detectable for both cops while the other two might be immune for one of the cops.
I really think you need to create a situation where town power roles are variable (you can even do something like 3 of (Cop, Gunsmith, Innocent Child, Miller, Hider, and Vanilla Cop) or something like that... as previously discussed the amount of roles and the pseudo claim removes some of the threat of the false positives within the group.
Then give scum something like (2 of Framer, Godfather, Doctor) to provide them with a few false innocent roles and a way to generate a false positive which is what is more likely do deal major damage to the town.
Havent really checked any of that for balance, but you are seemingly trying to create a game that blends false positives and false guilty results. To do that I think scum needs more ability to create false results that are not bound by town trying to organize a game breaking tactic that removes a large piece of their power.