drealmerz7's Mini Normal Review

[drealmerz7]

the powers aren't there for the sides to use to analyze and then win the game

the powers are there to build WIFOM to analyze and sort the truth from the lies so that who wins the game is either 1.) who is more skilled at deceit vs. 2.) who is more skilled at discovering the deceit

[drealmerz7]

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I was hoping for some more fluid back and forth and argument about it all. I like discussing and poring over the shit, it's a passion, and nothing is personal so, let's just dig in to it. Tell me it's fucking stupid or just not happening in any sort of complexity that I have it or whatever and let me get on with it.

smith, I do want clarification if by "not normal" you mean in terms of actual guidelines (in which case please use the words "explictly not permitted" so I know because "normal" is such a poor term, and confuses me because of how I'm used to it being used on my HS [where games are either NORMAL or BASTARD and there's no greylists or whitelists or any shit like that])

[mhsmith0]

I'll take a closer look at this tonight, sorry for delay on my end.

[drealmerz7]

no need to be sorry, I appreciate the time and effort

[Firebringer]

2x-BulletProof JailKeeper
1x-BulletProof 1x-Strongman 2x-Vigilante
1x-BulletProof Compulsive BodyGuard

2x-Strongman 2x-RoleBlocker
1x-Strongman 1x-Doctor

1x-BulletProof 2x-Strongman Serial Killer

Okay bulletproofs need to go as Msmith said, those are non normal additions to those roles.
You can have one non normal role, but this will have to flip in its entirety if the role dies.

Compulsive is also a non normal modifier so that would have to go, I also don't see many BGs not act? (Some do because they think they are invaluable but thats another thing).

Strongman for town is also non normal I believe.

So:

Jail keep
Bodyguard
2x Vigilante

2x strongman role blocker is also non normal.
So is a strongman doctor.

1 shot Doctor
2 shot Strongman or 2 shot Roleblocker

I am going to take your final role the serial killer as your white list role here:
1 bulletproof 2x strongman Serial Killer.

Probably still scum sided a bit here. With Doctor being able to protect scum. Vigilante more likely to shoot town. Depends more on if strongman is given to scum or role blocker.

[mhsmith0]

did you take into account those games having daychat or not? mine will not have day chat (which I think makes scum much more powerful)
taking a look at your notes

Some scum teams put day chat to very good use, others don't. In general it's a boost but not considered massive; then again, given that I've argued that the format is groupscum-sided, them having day chat would seem to make that more of an issue, not less.

smith, I want all of the WIFOM of the BPs+strongman shots mixed with the RB, JK, Doc stuff
"then you can take all the BPs off of the town PRs, which is both non-normal and unnecessary given that you'd give scum a huge # of strongman shots anyway, and you're left with"
it's non-normal? like it actually doesn't pass the setup anyway because that much isn't allowed in "normal" ? is that what you mean? or it's just not normal (like, I'm not normal)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549 is the mini-normal achrives. Over hundreds of games, there has never been a role as you propose. So it'd be, at the very least, gray-listed to have a role work that way, and per normal guidelines, you're limited to one gray-listed (not on the white list) role in a mini-normal game.

I like them having to choose between doing the kill with strongman or using their ability - it's fun deciding and tactical decision making
I'm taking potential claimings into consideration with all of this and the balance and how it would unfold potentially in various runs

The basic issue is that scum simply don't need that much power. You've given them active counters to basically everything that town has, when in general, the night kill is already a counter to town power, and further scum power is typically designed to overcome especially strong town power roles and/or especially strong synergy among town power roles. Three goon games are common. Here are, for instance, town's power and results in the last 10 3-goon mini normal games (scum is 7-3 in those):

Spoiler:

1843 scum win
3x masons

1827 scum win
bodyguard, 1-shot vig, 1-shot dayvig, neapolitan

1758 town win
3x masons

1741 town win
hider, 2-shot watcher, 1-shot BP

1705 scum win
neapolitan, 2x masons

1701 scum win
night 1 angel, cop (only 2 town PRs is an nearly unacceptable design btw - almost never do you see less than 3)

1697 scum win
macho cop, doctor (same comment as 1701)

1671 scum win
2-shot BG, IC, 2x masons

1668 scum win
vengeful, JOAT, bg

1660 town win
2-shot vig, doc, odd night tracker

the powers aren't there for the sides to use to analyze and then win the game
the powers are there to build WIFOM to analyze and sort the truth from the lies so that who wins the game is either 1.) who is more skilled at deceit vs. 2.) who is more skilled at discovering the deceit

Powers are supposed to be there to help town win compared to a fully mountainous format and/or be claimable to prevent mislynches (scum powers are essentially there in the event you gave town too much, so that balance is maintained). If they're there just to fuck with the players, that's a problem. WIFOM can be part of the design (for instance, giving town double doctors along with some kind of scum strongman or roleblocker to counter that power), but in general is not intended to be the purpose of creating PRs.

I'm really not trying to be difficult, I was hoping for some more fluid back and forth and argument about it all. I like discussing and poring over the shit, it's a passion, and nothing is personal so, let's just dig in to it. Tell me it's fucking stupid or just not happening in any sort of complexity that I have it or whatever and let me get on with it.
smith, I do want clarification if by "not normal" you mean in terms of actual guidelines (in which case please use the words "explictly not permitted" so I know because "normal" is such a poor term, and confuses me because of how I'm used to it being used on my HS [where games are either NORMAL or BASTARD and there's no greylists or whitelists or any shit like that])

It's not necessarily stupid, it's just not normal to have powers in that substantial level of complexity. People play mini normal games with a certain expectation of setup; most games are 10v3 with a reasonably consistent level of faction power/balance (some games are 3x goons with lower town power, others are more power on both sides), and then some games are 9/2/2 or have a SK (as you propose here).
Normal game guidance is at https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game, but that'
I think that the kind of really complex designed game you really have in mind is fine for a theme game (and that doesn't mean it's bastard, just that it's non-normal), but it's less fine for a normal game.
One example of this is your proposed composite roles. Per normal standards, JOAT roles (1-shot x, 1-shot y, 1-shot z) are normal, but something where a "JOAT" has unlimited x and 1/2 shots of y is not normal. Everything being 1-shot is inherent in a normal JOAT role, per https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... all-trades, and JOATs are the only composite role that is considered normal. So if you wanted a single role that had a 1-shot BP AND was full jk, or 1-shot strongman AND was full roleblocker, that would be your single allowed non-normal role.

2x-BulletProof JailKeeper
1x-BulletProof 1x-Strongman 2x-Vigilante
1x-BulletProof Compulsive BodyGuard

2x-Strongman 2x-RoleBlocker
1x-Strongman 1x-Doctor

1x-BulletProof 2x-Strongman Serial Killer

Okay bulletproofs need to go as Msmith said, those are non normal additions to those roles.
You can have one non normal role, but this will have to flip in its entirety if the role dies.

Compulsive is also a non normal modifier so that would have to go, I also don't see many BGs not act? (Some do because they think they are invaluable but thats another thing).

Strongman for town is also non normal I believe.

So:

Jail keep
Bodyguard
2x Vigilante

2x strongman role blocker is also non normal.
So is a strongman doctor.

1 shot Doctor
2 shot Strongman or 2 shot Roleblocker

I am going to take your final role the serial killer as your white list role here:
1 bulletproof 2x strongman Serial Killer.

Probably still scum sided a bit here. With Doctor being able to protect scum. Vigilante more likely to shoot town. Depends more on if strongman is given to scum or role blocker.

FB is correct actually about compulsive being a non-normal role as well; I'd forgotten about that one.

PS As a note of consideration, if you think that the modifications that we're talking about are too much of a change to the game you want to run (and that's fine if so), you may be better off just running an open setup in the open queue, and then running your preferred setups as theme games. Per https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... quirements, you're required to have 1 completed mod game before you can do any theme games, but it doesn't have to be a normal; you can just bang out an open game (which usually fill pretty fast anyway) and once that's finished, be someone who's demonstrated that they're not going to flake out, unreasonably mod-kill players, or have anything else bad about your moderation capabilities/tendencies.

[mhsmith0]

PPS the open queue mod list is about 7 long (was briefly low for a bit), so that might actually take a while to go through (I'd thought it was lower)

So I'd probably still suggest going through the normal game review process if you want to get your first one done faster (since you'd be up pretty fast once the review is done, and I think there's a demand to fill the list among players too).

So I guess the question is, given that you can't have composite roles (or at least not more than one), what would you like your role distribution to be here? I'd made a suggestion earlier, FB did the same, but while we're here to review game for balance/normality, it's still your call about how you want it structured (even if it is something where we're vetoing a lot of stuff that you want)

[drealmerz7]

thank you so much!!! I just wasn't (still!!! fucking hell, d!) computing the fucking "non-normal" stuff. Even though I've read the fucking normal guidelines over half a dozen times!!! thank you for your patience and working with me, both of you

I'll retweak later and get an acceptable setup

definitely will just run this one closed with the appropriate role config. open setups bore me

compulsive BG is the role I want from the grey-list, hands down no doubt

[mhsmith0]

FWIW there's some lack of clarity to normal guidelines that we'll probably do some work to tweak over the coming months.

[drealmerz7]

hard times...unable to focus...maybe tonight

I want to get this in the queue really badly

[Firebringer]

So any changes made?

[drealmerz7]

TOWN:

3-shot JailKeeper
2-shot Vigilante
Compulsive BodyGuard
BodyGuard
5VanillaTown

SCUM:

2-shot Mafia RoleBlocker
1-shot Strongman Mafia
Mafia Goon

1-shot BulletProof 2-shot Strongman Serial Killer - is the BP here non-normal as well? will remove it but I wasn't sure if the BPs that you said to take off were just town's or not

the compulsive BG is my non-normal one, that is not going to change, so yup

[drealmerz7]

that should be 1-shot Strongman Serial Killer actually now

[drealmerz7]

hmmm 2 could work still - let me know thoughts

[Firebringer]

TOWN:

3-shot JailKeeper
2-shot Vigilante
Compulsive BodyGuard
BodyGuard
5VanillaTown

SCUM:

2-shot Mafia RoleBlocker
1-shot Strongman Mafia
Mafia Goon

1-shot BulletProof 2-shot Strongman Serial Killer - is the BP here non-normal as well? will remove it but I wasn't sure if the BPs that you said to take off were just town's or not

the compulsive BG is my non-normal one, that is not going to change, so yup

This seems fine now now one terms of "normalcy"
did you want this approved for balance as well? Cause I think its still a bit too swingy.

[drealmerz7]

also, do I get to choose whether the strongman kill when meeting a BG ALSO kills the BG, or simply bypasses the BG? or is simply that the kill bypasses the BG?

[drealmerz7]

doublespeakspeak

[Firebringer]

also, do I get to choose whether the strongman kill when meeting a BG ALSO kills the BG, or simply bypasses the BG? or is simply that the kill bypasses the BG?

kill bypasses bg. At least I am 90% sure thats how it works here.

[drealmerz7]

I like swingy, but I'd like more feedback than that if you have it / anything to elaborate on

[drealmerz7]

that's generally how I'm used to it working too, but there are instances where the mod can make it kill both (probably not "normal" here, even if not bastard)

[drealmerz7]

I was also contemplating knocking the vig. back to 1-shot, or the mafia RB up to 3-shot - if those affects the swinginess to increase or decrease at all?

[mhsmith0]

TOWN:

3-shot JailKeeper
2-shot Vigilante
Compulsive BodyGuard
BodyGuard
5VanillaTown

SCUM:

2-shot Mafia RoleBlocker
1-shot Strongman Mafia
Mafia Goon

1-shot BulletProof 2-shot Strongman Serial Killer - is the BP here non-normal as well? will remove it but I wasn't sure if the BPs that you said to take off were just town's or not

the compulsive BG is my non-normal one, that is not going to change, so yup

I actually need to check on the SK whether you can composite like that or not. might be a no. It's definitely going to be super swingy, probably prone to mod WIFOM due to double bodyguards too.

I'd actually say to make the JK or the vig full; one full, the other gated. Bodyguards are trash powers, and especially so with one of them compulsive; town should have at least one legitimately strong role here for balance; only 4 town PRs, with two of them trash (BGs), and the other two gates (jk/vig), agianst three group scum (with three shots of very good power) and an sk, is still too hard on town.

I might actually suggest turning the SK into a 2-shot BP (no strongman at all), and then it will make the night game super difficult to figure out because bullets and protects/blocks will just turn it chaos-y pretty fast, especially with zero investigative power.

I'd actually suggest to tweak to:

Town
Jailkeeper
2-shot vig
compulsive bg
bg
5 vt

scum
1-shot roleblocker (don't see why town or sk is strong enough to need two shots)
1-shot strongman (useful against sk and/or jk)
goon

serial killer
2-shot bp

also, do I get to choose whether the strongman kill when meeting a BG ALSO kills the BG, or simply bypasses the BG? or is simply that the kill bypasses the BG?

kill bypasses bg. At least I am 90% sure thats how it works here.

Correct. I'm not certain about the order betrween bodyguard and bulletproof; I THINK that the bulletproof goes first but I can look that up

[drealmerz7]

2-shot BP for SK is too strong I think, he might get BGed or JKed, 3 potentials to make SK safe at night, plus 1BP is plenty balance for a SK slot going against standard 3-man scum team - I def like the 1BP 1Strongman for SK, so yeah, let me know if I can do that combo in normal, if not, I'll just make it strongman

I'll make JK full but still want to keep 2-shot maf RB

[mhsmith0]

I don't think it's ok for an SK to lack a BP in a game with 3 scum and a gated rb and a gated strongman and where town has a (gated) vig.

[drealmerz7]

but it can be protected by the 2 BGs, JK, ANNND the JK+RBs potentially block kills going at SK - that's the net he gets looks like plenty/more than standard even for an SK