Mini Normal 1873 (Game Over)

[karnos]

VOTE: shannon

This vote doesn't count yet, consider this a note to self on who is obviously scum.

[karnos]

VOTE: shannon

This vote doesn't count yet, consider this a note to self on who is obviously scum.

I remember you, do you remember me?

Yep, you and BlueBloodedToffee.

[karnos]

VOTE: shannon

Makin' it real.

[karnos]

VOTE: nydushermain

I prefer the symmetry of two equal sized wagons.

[karnos]

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Real vote time.

[karnos]

That being said

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

Real vote time.

This vote feel opportunistic to me. It' hasn't got real reasoning and I feel like it's on someone he thinks will end up being a wagon.

VOTE: karnos

I don't think It's scummy to have flawed reasoning like Lickety had. Town can be Flawed as well.

Seems like you tried to guess the reasoning, and then assumed I had none afterward. Weird.

If LQ is scum, you are the partner jumping to derail the lynch.

I wasn't scum reading him based on his logic, it was his defensiveness and over-explaining himself that pinged me.

Also, isn't an opportunistic vote usually characterized as jumping on a growing wagon?

[karnos]

Agreed, but was hoping to see his reaction to the accusation. You make me sad

[karnos]

4. An opportunistic vote is when you see the opportunity to vote someone with little possible repurcussions, in this case, LQ was likely going to be wagoned and leading the wagon in advance like this has little implications on you tomorrow.

WTF is this logic? How was I predicting the future, exactly?

Either there was a legitimate reason to vote him, and I am justified in my vote for that reason, or there isn't- in which case there is no possible reason for me to predict he would be a wagon. You are arguing nonsense.

Note: haven't caught up on the thread yet, posting as I go.

[karnos]

Not much else to directly respond to. I get the sense that there is a clique of players here who all know each other pretty well, which usually means I get miss-lynched. My style always seems to come across as scummy when playing with people I haven't played with before.

That said:

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

Probably not scum based on what has occurred in the thread.

VOTE: XnadrojX

Best bet for today. Might just be annoying town, but he is using a lot of shitty scum logic.

Mostly away today hosting a D&D game, so I don't expect to be around again until late or tomorrow.

[karnos]

One does not simply say someone is using shitty logic and doesn't explain how.
Might I say, does not simply get voted by one player and vote the accuser.
Good posting would have been you explaining the err's in his ways.
Unforunately, you decided to do fuck all.
So, I am willing to lend my vote.

I put a little easter egg in there for you to munch on.

VOTE: Karnos

How did you read 188 and not even notice 187?

T

[karnos]

So Shannon, you're saying that, from your point of view, Jordan's play was like throwing a punch at LQ but holding back so he doesn't get the blame for it?

It's worse. He is throwing shade on LQ, and then when someone (me) took his words seriously he turned around and accused me of being scum jumping on an opportunistic wagon (of course, it was a wagon of 0 at the time I voted).

This is classic scum play. You win either way- either the guy you throw shade on gets miss-lynched, or you turn it into a wagon on someone who "opportunistically' took your scum reads at face value.

[karnos]

So Shannon, you're saying that, from your point of view, Jordan's play was like throwing a punch at LQ but holding back so he doesn't get the blame for it?

It's worse. He is throwing shade on LQ, and then when someone (me) took his words seriously he turned around and accused me of being scum jumping on an opportunistic wagon (of course, it was a wagon of 0 at the time I voted).

Why do you say you took nadroj's words seriously here? You said you voted LQ for defensiveness and over-explaining rather than his logic, but as far as I can tell nadroj's "shade throwing" was only based on LQ's logic.

UNVOTE:

don't really want my vote anywhere right now tbh

Are you actually reading the thread or just my iso? It was XnadrojX who started questioning LQ leading to his defensiveness & over-explaining. At the time I was taking XnadrojX for town pushing to find scum, and I didn't like LQs reaction.

[karnos]

He isn't "just" being g aggresive. He's picking up on and pushing things that scum normally dont bother with.

He was under the spotlight, getting attacked for an incrediblyy reachy case. These are the people likely to get a wagon on then first. There was a slight legitimate reason for you to lynch him, but it looked way more likely that you saw a wagon on LQ since he was currently under attack but with no votes on them. Here's some sense for you to interpret.

Doesn't anyone else see the contrast here? In two consecutive posts xnadrojx implies scum wouldn't push on something reachy, and then follows up by saying I'm likely scum because I pushed something reachy.

Er, what?

[karnos]

Who are the people Jordan is referring too? It's hard to understand what you're saying. Just tell me a narrative and include the post number.

Like I don't know the context of the posts. So tell me Jordan said that "Player X" is townie for doing "action X" but I see a contradiction that Jordan says "Player Y" is scummy for doing "action Y"

If you could explain it to me in that form it would be very much appreciated because I'm having a hard time following what you want me to see.

The first was referring to Alisae.

The second is referring to LQ and my vote upon him.

I realize I am bias since he is voting me, so I am looking at his posts with a microscope, which is why I am asking if anyone else sees it. It seems to me that in the first post, he is saying Alisae is making a reachy case ("He's picking up on and pushing things that scum normally dont bother with."), and because of that Alisae is town. In the second case, he outright says the case on LQ is reachy with only a slight legitimate reason to push, but this time he thinks it proves I am scum.

I'm just a bit dumbfounded at his logic. It's hard to fight the case he has on me if he can use the same argument to prove one person is town and another is scum.

[karnos]

Just to be clear, I don't think Alisae is scum.

[karnos]

Those voting Karnos, I want you to look at this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=66922

That was a very atypical game. Multiball and first game with DixC, who is a friend of mine from a previous forum. Pretty sure he is the one who pushed to have me night-killed N1.

I don't like meta analysis but if you are going to use it look at my more recent games, this one is a bad example (though I understand LQ is showing it because he was in the same game).

[karnos]

I feel like I am talking to a wall, nobody is even responding to my arguments.

Bleh.

Just do me a favor, nobody quick lynch me okay? I want a chance to respond to the case on me, as flimsy as it is. It's a long time until deadline.

[karnos]

Hmm that's a toughie because tbh while I'm really confident on my karnos scum read the others not so much.

Have we ever played together? Why are you so confident in your read?

[karnos]

Karnos ISO that I haven't responded to significantly.

First of all, notice how he COMPLETELY disregards my counter argument about Alisae (who was a townread back then) after he tries to push me flimsily about my opinions, which I completely destroy in my counter argument.
He then just disappears, not even a time range to when he'd be back.

"notice how he COMPLETELY disregards my counter argument about Alisae"

What argument are you talking about? The one you made in 358? How exactly was I supposed to respond to something you said in 358 when my post to you came before it?

But hey, I'll respond to it now. You are lying. You are probably scum.

This is what I posted:

he is saying Alisae is making a reachy case ("He's picking up on and pushing things that scum normally dont bother with.")

That is a fucking exact quote of your words. Don't try to deny it now. If you don't call "pushing things that scum normally dont bother with" reachy, WTF do you call it?

"He then just disappears, not even a time range to when he'd be back."

Wow. Pot, meet kettle. You were completely absent from the thread for more than 48 hours over Monday & Tuesday. When exactly are you claiming I disappeared?

[karnos]

Also, for anyone who still thinks this asshole is town, just look at how he is willing to throw his logic in the toilet as soon as he is caught in a contradiction.

He isn't "just" being g aggresive. He's picking up on and pushing things that scum normally dont bother with.

I don't like cases of "scum would/wouldn't do this"
Anything can be shaken off like that.

This is not town thinking.

In 177 XnadrojX is perfectly happy to give Alisae a towny pass for doing stuff

scum wouldn't do

.

In 221 he suddenly took a 180, and is saying he doesn't like cases like "

scum wouldn't do

" something.

I'm still thinking we are smart enough to turn this around and wagon some scum, but if it comes down to a karnos lynch you must promise me you will lynch this asshole as soon as my alignment flips.

[karnos]

XnadrojX & Garmr share a PT. Probably because they are both scum.

[karnos]

Karnos, calm your temper, calling someone an asshole only makes me want to PL you now.

You have a point. I am looking back at my post and I regret resorting to personal attacks.

XnadrojX, I'm sorry for that. But you are still scum.

[karnos]

Is it weird that I don't remember this playstyle from you Karnos?

Is this the game you are comparing with?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=69768

I don't disagree, lots of factors effect my play-style.

[karnos]

I had a couple random votes on me throughout that game, but I was never in a situation where I had the largest wagon. I play a bit different when someone is trying to lynch me.

[karnos]

XnadrojX & Garmr share a PT. Probably because they are both scum.

Explain. I still view Jordan as scummy, but not Garmr, so would like to see where you got this conclusion from.

I'd like to see them explain first.

[karnos]

XnadrojX & Garmr share a PT. Probably because they are both scum.

Explain. I still view Jordan as scummy, but not Garmr, so would like to see where you got this conclusion from.

I'd like to see them explain first.

No you can't dodge a question like that bad karnos.

Yeah okay, that is you. Still going to give XnadrojX a chance. Unless you speak for him?

Did he already tell you how to answer in scum chat?

[karnos]

You know what, go for it.

I don't have the patience to try to break of a clique of fanatics.

Just make sure you lynch XnadrojX & Garmr, in that order, after me.

[karnos]

Yeah okay, that is you. Still going to give XnadrojX a chance. Unless you speak for him?

Did he already tell you how to answer in scum chat?

Stop throwing shades.

I don't even think the scum team has day chat

I'm VOTING XnadrojX.

Get your terms right.

[karnos]

Actually I lied, because I didn't want to immediately claim, but I worry that if all the scum aren't already on my wagon I might get hammered prematurely so I might as well put my cards on the table.

[karnos]

Anyway, after I die, XnadrojX will flip scum. Please lynch his obv partner Garmr tomorrow.

Yes, this is a serious claim.

[karnos]

Yeah okay, that is you. Still going to give XnadrojX a chance. Unless you speak for him?

Did he already tell you how to answer in scum chat?

Stop throwing shades.

I don't even think the scum team has day chat

I'm VOTING XnadrojX.

Get your terms right.

^^Lynch this please^^

I know who you're voting for and you're throwing shades at everyone.

What terms am I not getting right?

Throwing shade implies I am saying some person is scum without voting them. I am telling you now, XnadrojX is scum, AND I am voting him, that is not 'throwing shade' per usual definition. Garmr is probably the scum partner, but I only have one vote. I'm more confident about XnadrojX anyway.


Who else do you think I am throwing shade on?

[karnos]

Yeah okay, that is you. Still going to give XnadrojX a chance. Unless you speak for him?

Did he already tell you how to answer in scum chat?

Stop throwing shades.

I don't even think the scum team has day chat

"Any and all game topics will remain open the entire game."

That implies they do. Do you know otherwise?

[karnos]

I thought I did, but if you want me to spell it out I'm a vengeful townie.

[karnos]

The thought that crosses my mind right now is that if I am wrong about XnadrojX, scum will probably quick-hammer me asap.

So. Depending on my feelings at the time, I *might* target the hammerer instead. But TBH I'm pretty sure I am correct about my XnadrojX read.

[karnos]

I was reading you as town, but the way you are asking rubs me the wrong way.

If you were actually scum, and I am wrong about xnadrojx, you'd love for me to say yes. Then you can get a free hammer on me plus burn my power on another townie.

So, no. I'm prepared to be lynched, it might well happen, but I am not asking to be hammered, especially not now when we have so much time until deadline.

[karnos]

Nah, Karnos is a great lynch.

And you knew it before you even read the thread!

You planted a naked vote on me as your second post to the thread, without giving a single shred of real content.

I'd love to hear a real case for someone who is voting me for at least some reason other than RVS laziness.

[karnos]

A lot of activity.

First of all, Prana's case is full of holes. The biggest thing is that yesterday when I was actively posting, I was at L-3 and 15 days until deadline. I didn't feel a lot of pressure and I wasn't concerned about being quicklynched. I absolutely wasn't going to spout off my role for no reason, as others have pointed out it's much more valuable to keep it secret. That is why I repeated the lie that I wanted XnadrojX lynched after me, because I couldn't just come out and say I was going to vengekill him.

This changed rapidly as prana voted me, thinkbig voted me in a 1 hour period, and I realized if there was a scum that isn't already on my wagon I was in danger of being quicklynched, so I claimed.

Is prana saying I should have claimed earlier, at L-3? Or is he complaining that I lied about wanting XnadrojX lynched? Sorry, but I wasn't going to claim at L-3 with over 2 weeks until deadline. The game state changed rapidly yesterday afternoon and I momentarily hesitated before realizing I had to claim. That doesn't make me scum, if I was scum I could have invented any claim I wanted, and I could have picked something that didn't contradict my previous posts.

[karnos]

if karnos was really vengeful townie he would of hammered himself and then shot me or jordan. This is clearly a survival move because his afraid of a lynch.

This is incredibly stupid logic.

If I self hammer, I am trading a guaranteed town aligned player (myself) for XnadrojX, who I am maybe 70% confident in flipping scum. Vs if I don't self hammer, and we can turn the wagon around to an actual scum (such as XnadrojX), then I get that same 70% chance of hitting scum and getting them lynched without losing my own life.

I honestly disagree with the theory that I will immediately get night-killed. First off, I could be wrong about XnadrojX. If I am, scum would never nightkill me, because they would get an easy 2 for 1 kill by getting me miss-lynched instead. Second, I'm pretty damn close to being lynched already today. Scum kill the players who are heavily town read, the players who are not going to get miss-lynched under any circumstances, players who are acting as a town leader and being followed by other townie looking players. That is not me in this game, unfortunately.

Scum might night kill me later, they wouldn't want me in LYLO I agree, but that is several game days from now.

[karnos]

Also, town would really benefit from seeing who hammers me to force the issue, if I self-hammer we lose out on that information.

[karnos]

@MOD

V/LA from the duration starting from tomorow to after the weekend. It's a very important weekend for some people

Prana and Shannon seems to be the most agreed on townread based on what is going on.
ThinkBig is a strange mix of scummy posts and townie posts. Don't really know how to read that slot.
Alisae just announced he's scum, and likely with karnos. Bringing off a lot of the votes off karnos was Alisae.
The fact that the wagon just dissipated like that indicates scum, probably a scumbuddy tried to derail.
I dunno about AA, he hasn't made enough posts for me to properly get a read on him, leaning scum for now I think.
That thing from Lexa is NAI, can't blame inconvenient timing looking opportune imo. (Unless I'm too trusting of people which I doubt)
There still was no reason to vote BBT over karnos, karnos still stood as the scummier person.
Speaking of karnos, the claim was shit. I doubt he actually a Vengeful townie (unless Vengeful Mafia but I've never heard of it) it looked a lot like a self defence move to me.

This is the best you're gonna get out of me for the weekend.

And what is this load of crap? No response to my case on him, and total hypocrisy of calling me out for being "away" from the game just the day before he apparently plans duck out for the next 4 days.

[karnos]

Played right into the scums plan. Unless I'm wrong and it was you.

[karnos]

31 pages of content, we've tons to look back on, I'm fine with a hammer.

What is this kangaroo court, someone who is already voting offering permission to hammer? This means nothing.

[karnos]

First, at L-3 when its 7 to lynch, you should absolutely feel pressure

You think it's correct to claim at L-3? This a scum argument. I should use my vengekill on you.

[karnos]

With what I've seen from Karnos thus far, if he actually is town, then he is going to create a toxic atmosphere in this game.No problems with a policy lynch.

Gotta blacklist you if you are actually town. "If I am actually town" what exactly is toxic about making my case and trying to avoid getting lynched?

Pathetic.

[karnos]

After looking over what led to this hammer, I think I'm going to use my vengekill on...

ThinkBig.


Thinkbig, if you have anything to say to change my mind before the thread is locked speak fast, soon it will be too late.

[karnos]

karnos, please use the nn-existent venge-kill on me, I beg of you. Especially as I said pressure not "claim", blatant misrepping of what I said.

Maybe I'll flip a coin, but Thinkbigs lame "don't kill me because it would be bad" sounds like the sort of thing scum would say, because they are afraid an actual claim would get cced.

Your "pressure" statement was the misrep. I clearly said that without STRONG pressure I wasn't going to claim because my role loses a lot of utility if scum know I have it. You misrepped my statement into it all being about the pressure, when it was really all about why I didn't claim at L-3.

[karnos]

Sorry guys, I screwed up and the vengekill hit the moderator. We are stuck in day 1 twilight forever.