Space Monkey Mafia 2: Pigs in Space! GAME OVER

[Adel]

I think Kison may deserve scummie nomination. Between his post pointing out that I could hammer MBF and get an additional kill in, and his full game bus of The Fonz (just strong enough to seem sincere, but not strong enough for either of them to get lynched), I don't see how he ever could've gotten lynched without getting caught by an investigative role.

[Adel]

also, when would the optimal time for a massclaim have been?

[Sarcastro]

And Adel, I knew you were scum. The town may have sucked, but so did the Space Monkeys. You guys made yourselves incredibly obvious from the very start. I said it didn't matter who was scum because I didn't want it to turn into an argument over whether or not the Monkeys were actually scum, but I repeatedly made it clear that I knew it was the Monkeys. Do you think I would have advocated the plan had the Gorillas been scum?

You correctly identified that the Monkeys were scum. How good of a job did you do identifying which Pigs were traitor scum?

Sometimes it is necessary to loose a battle in order to win a war.

This doesn't even make sense. What does the fact that I didn't do a good job finding the traitors have to do with whether or not my plan was a good one?

You don't have a real response, so you criticise my scumhunting abilities and imply that somehow your poor play was good play because your team won. No, Adel, the Monkeys played poorly and were easily discovered, and the traitors played well and won the game.

And a massclaim would never really have been helpful. There were not nearly enough power roles to justify it. The traitors could have just claimed Loyal Technician (or Medic in the case of Ooba) and we wouldn't have had much chance of figuring anything out.

[shaft.ed]

How I wish Sarcastro would have argued this heavily during the game. We might have stood a chance.

[MrBuddyLee]

Did DGB laying waste to me early help or hinder her cause?

[Sarcastro]

How I wish Sarcastro would have argued this heavily during the game. We might have stood a chance.

Nah, I still would have been arguing for the wrong things. It's my actual scum-detection skills I need to work on, not my arguing.

[shaft.ed]

Yeah I can agree with the detection skills. I was horrendously wrong throughout this game.

I think DGB making that early kill was incredibly distracting. However, it is very difficult to say whether or not DGB being around in the game for an extended period would have been any less distracting.

[Kison]

Mr. Stoofer, yet another great game. Loved the night-less aspect(kept things moving). Looking forward to the next, should I still be around.

I believe that Erg0's death scene should read 'Watcher' instead of 'Tracker.'

I have an odd feeling that Santa will be visiting both Adel and Shaft.ed sometime soon.

[Adel]

No, Adel, the Monkeys played poorly and were easily discovered, and the traitors played well and won the game.

I recall (shortly after shy guy's DGB kill) deciding that the safest course of play was to expect that my alignment would eventually be obvious, and that the only thing required of me was to limit my connections to the TP and sow confusion among the town.

That course left BMF and I with enough flexibility to basically out ourselves, leave ZS alive so that he could speed up the game with his mis-guided kills, and let the TP's direct their own kills.

I'm pretty happy with my play in this game. It was low risk/low reward, and the only big goof I remember making is not hammering MBF in time for me to get an extra kill in.

[Sarcastro]

Adel, I knew you were scum

long

before Shy Guy killed DGB. If I recall correctly, I suspected that you were scum within the first few pages and was pretty sure of myself soon afterwards. Maybe you played well in other ways, Adel, like in your private communication (I didn't read the whole thing), but you were very obvious scum.

[Adel]

really? what gave me away?

[Adel]

Shy Guy, don't be stupid. Why won't you listen to anything I say?

The Gorillas will cooperate. If they defect, we kill them. It's a really simple policy, and shouting that they're on a "path of bloodshed" is meaningless rhetoric that ignores the realities of the game.

DGB did a really reckless, unhelpful thing, but that doesn't make her scum, and to be honest it's not surprising coming from DGB.

Right now the Gorillas look like town and you look like scum. There's plenty of room for that to change, though, but it will

not

change through the two sides whining at each other or making lame arguments against each other.

I don't believe the crap arguments the Gorillas are making. Neither do I believe the crap arguments you Monkeys are making. That's why I want you to

stop

. Right now I believe the Gorillas are more likely to be town for a number of small reasons, but it doesn't really matter, because our first targets should be the traitor pigs.

Shy Guy, either post a good reason why I'm wrong about something or shut up and listen to me. My strategy

is

the best one for the town, and you acting unhelpful won't do anything except annoy everyone.

this is the only sarcasto post I could find where he seemed to have an opinion regarding which primate group was scum dating from before shy guy sent in the DGB kill. I'm not convinced.

[Sarcastro]

This is from my fifth post of the game, on Page Nine:

I believe that the Gorillas are more likely to be on our side.

That's my first definitive statement, but as I said, I specifically wanted to avoid claiming the Monkeys were scum, because I wanted both groups to give us their kills. This isn't just me saying "Oh, I knew it but didn't say anything", Adel, because I specifically said many times that there was no point arguing about which primates were scum. I was quite sure that the Monkeys were scum, but it would have been counter to my plans to state it outright. I wanted to keep the Monkeys alive so we could use your kill and so that it would be possible to link traitors to you. We wouldn't have gained nearly as much from killing you off immediately, and that's assuming I would have been able to convince the town I was right instead of just having it devolve into more pointless bickering.

[Adel]

good for you. how on earth did we win against your superior mafia skills?

[Sarcastro]

Oh come on, Adel; you're acting like a child. Your team won and I played poorly once the Monkeys were dead. We all know that. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth just because I explained that I knew you were scum? Insecure, much?

And I thought I was bitter.

[shaft.ed]

I have an odd feeling that Santa will be visiting both Adel and Shaft.ed sometime soon.

Intruiging

[Natirasha]

For the record, had I not been killed, Stoofer was forcing me to be replaced due to my fakeclaim.

I fakeclaimed to try to draw enemy fire, plus I would never not fakeclaim with a name like "Chief Scientific Officer". I disagree with Stoofer's opinion here.

I got a PM stating, in a nutshell "wtf?" I replied, and I narrowly avoided a modkill. I would actually want some answers on this, Stoofer. What was the reasoning behind this?

[Adel]

And Adel, I knew you were scum. The town may have sucked, but so did the Space Monkeys. You guys made yourselves incredibly obvious from the very start. I said it didn't matter who was scum because I didn't want it to turn into an argument over whether or not the Monkeys were actually scum, but I repeatedly made it clear that I knew it was the Monkeys. Do you think I would have advocated the plan had the Gorillas been scum?

You correctly identified that the Monkeys were scum. How good of a job did you do identifying which Pigs were traitor scum?

Sometimes it is necessary to loose a battle in order to win a war.

This doesn't even make sense. What does the fact that I didn't do a good job finding the traitors have to do with whether or not my plan was a good one?

You don't have a real response, so you criticise my scumhunting abilities and imply that somehow your poor play was good play because your team won. No, Adel, the Monkeys played poorly and were easily discovered, and the traitors played well and won the game.

I don't think the Moneys sucked. I think we player our roles well, we worked together to identify problems and resolve them, and we went out with a bang. The result was a town that worker very hard to lynch each other allowing the TPs to win without a single death. It was a team effort, and I think Kison in particular did an outstanding job, but I don't think that we sucked. We fulfilled our objectives are were the victors in this game. The town was not able to use our record to find anything other than false trains as they tried to identify the traitor pigs. I call that success and the result of good play.

[Sarcastro]

I don't think the Moneys sucked. I think we player our roles well, we worked together to identify problems and resolve them, and we went out with a bang. The result was a town that worker very hard to lynch each other allowing the TPs to win without a single death. It was a team effort, and I think Kison in particular did an outstanding job, but I don't think that we sucked. We fulfilled our objectives are were the victors in this game. The town was not able to use our record to find anything other than false trains as they tried to identify the traitor pigs. I call that success and the result of good play.

Good play in certain areas, perhaps, but all we've been talking about is how well you disguised the fact that you were scum. You're just changing the subject again because you don't want to admit that you were obvious scum. Guess what, Adel - if you're going to say that the whole town sucked in every single way and put down my having a good plan to sheer luck, you can't expect me to pull punches when I'm describing your play.

I already conceded that I don't know how good your "behind-the-scenes" contribution was. All I said was that you were obvious scum and I caught you early on in the game. I didn't even say it to brag - I said it because you assumed I had no idea you were scum and declared that my plan was only gamebreaking because you happened to be scum. No, Adel, my plan was good and I figured out that the Monkeys were scum. The fact that I played poorly for the rest of the game doesn't change that, and neither does the fact that you won.

You are being an incredibly sore winner right now (and please, don't turn around and accuse me of being a sore loser, because I've gotten over the bitterness, acknoweldged those who deserve it, and admitted that I did a terrible job of trying to find the traitors), and you're using your team's victory as an excuse to compliment your own play and disparage mine, which, what do you know, pisses me off a bit.

[Adel]

the town did suck in this game. You (as a group) allowed the scum to basically lurk through the last several days, and let almost every day drag to a deadline lynch. You didn't give our TPs a run for their money. Every investigative role failed to produce a solvable logic puzzle that would out scum.

I was disappointed while following this game after my death because I thought it would be a close and exciting game.

It was not fun watching the town basically suffocate itself with apathy.

Your play in later days in particular Sarcastro is a model of how not to win as town. Basically from the point where I was killed to lylo you had nothing significant you felt like posting. Your play had far more to do with us winning this game then my play did.

But I do appreciate your snide comments in the spirit they are intended, and I find it humorous that you've apparently spent much more energy bickering with me in the post-game then you spent scum-hunting during the actual game.

[Sarcastro]

And yet again you resort to repeating things we've already agreed upon (the town didn't play well, I didn't do a good job scumhunting, etc.) and insulting me even more. Very mature.

Quit your bitching, Adel. You won. Be happy. What are you trying to accomplish at this point? It honestly seems like you're just trolling me, because all I see are insults - you rubbing in the fact that I did a bad job scumhunting. Why? Because I pointed out that I knew you were scum? Overreaction much?

You're the worst sore winner I've seen since BM in Consulmaker.

[ooba]

Ya for the victory - I didn't lurk (except for the last 4 days when i had issues due to shifting location). I was disappointed by the town not posting much as it came to the end and hence wasn't exciting enough . I think both Kison and Fonz played very well in this game ..

The setup was exciting .. Thanks Mr.Stoofer...

This was my first game as scum - what did you all think about my play? Any places where you think i slipped up?

[Mr Stoofer]

Stoofer, I disagree that we made a mistake by trying to keep both factions alive. I especially disagree that it was a mistake to keep ZS alive. In what possible way is having a vig

bad

for the town? Obviously it didn't exactly go well this time, but in balance terms I don't understand how you can make the argument that having a vig is on the whole a disadvantage.

I have see vigs do good things - armlx destroyed the Scum in Mafia 45 almost single handedly, and in Mini 250 the town went into night with only one more player than Scum, and yet they managed to win the game due to the vig hitting scum that night.

But more and more I have seen vigs hurting the Town by killing off players. In this game the balance depended on the Tracker and Watcher being able to do their stuff; and by reducing the number of nights (not to mention killing two Townies), ZS was a major factor in the Traitors' win. This is not an isolated example.

The problem to me was, more than anything, a lack of organisation (which is something that seems to be common in large games, as exemplified by the Bad Idea games). I had to spend half the game just trying to get everyone to listen to what I was saying. And even then, people ignored the whole "look for traitors and ignore the simians" part, instead spending the whole time dicking around.

I agree with this. I think trying to work out which Simians were your allies was a waste of time.

If I had been a Loyal Space Pig I would have forbidden the Simians from voting

at all

(the short deadlines and deadline lynch rules allowed that to be a feasible strategy.

[Mr Stoofer]

For the record, had I not been killed, Stoofer was forcing me to be replaced due to my fakeclaim.

I fakeclaimed to try to draw enemy fire, plus I would never not fakeclaim with a name like "Chief Scientific Officer". I disagree with Stoofer's opinion here.

I got a PM stating, in a nutshell "wtf?" I replied, and I narrowly avoided a modkill. I would actually want some answers on this, Stoofer. What was the reasoning behind this?

I took the view at the time that this was fucking about and not serious play. In part that was due to things you had done in other games that had come to my attention.

[Mr Stoofer]

I don't think the Moneys sucked. I think we player our roles well, we worked together to identify problems and resolve them, and we went out with a bang. The result was a town that worker very hard to lynch each other allowing the TPs to win without a single death. It was a team effort, and I think Kison in particular did an outstanding job, but I don't think that we sucked. We fulfilled our objectives are were the victors in this game. The town was not able to use our record to find anything other than false trains as they tried to identify the traitor pigs. I call that success and the result of good play.

I agree.