hi, i'm large normal 242. and i'm over with.
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schadd_ he/itpandora's pukeboxhe/it
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another thing is when i refer to balance from a numbers standpoint, i purely mean how often id expect town to win. i dont think anybody really numerically analyzes normal setups, especially past micro size, its like too hard. i also just choose to think of this in terms of how i expect it to happen in practice rather than in theory, the thing i want for balance is for town to factially win as often as scum does. i also cant design around people playing their roles perfectly or even consistently well bc that doesnt happen, although i try to avoid things that would particularly suck under certain optimal decisions being made. there's just a lot of things with regards to avoiding claiming, claiming partially or misleadingly to scum, and generating a maximum amount of information from roles that people rarely do-
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schadd_ he/itpandora's pukeboxhe/it
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how did you break the setup?In post 3791, MathBlade wrote:I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I did-
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schadd_ he/itpandora's pukeboxhe/it
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i think i got pretty abstract in my last few posts so idk if theyre helpful. there's games where roleblocker has a specific function it can have that fits into the setup. there's like a very mild charm in trying to figure out whether somebody who's like "i'm a tracker but ahh they keep blocking me lol" is telling the truth-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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NM disloyal vig + Loyal BG + voyeur = confirm three alignmentsIn post 3801, schadd_ wrote:
how did you break the setup?In post 3791, MathBlade wrote:I don’t think people reviewing expected me to break the setup like I didScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Like for this setup it was remarkably protown to mass claim.
Scum should have curb stomped us in a balanced setup.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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If everyone mass claimed D1 assuming vig/voyeur not elimmed
D1 vig+voyeur hit same target. Loyal BG “protects” NM or gets outed. So sure they can get rid of vig on d1 but in exchange a scum team loses one BG gets and two conf towns (voyeur and check) or loses BG and another scum dies and voyeur conf town.
I don’t think that works wellScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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PookyTheMagicalBear Pooky got your back
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the only thing that was needed to "break" the setup was for the disloyal vig to claim on d2 and ask for protection and the protective to stay quiet and protect him because the mafia team has literally no way to interact with that.
we would've fired on the vig because we have no expectation there should be a protective given that we have no counterplay to the vig, our nightkill would've failed and then we would've promptly gotten stomped into the dirt even if we managed multiple mislims because lol disloyal vig?!
I really appreciate giving the mafia team a "loyal one shot bodyguard" as the only way to "interact" with a town disloyal vigilante.
It was kind of a extra hard "go fuck yourself" role.
Congrats to Luke/Enchant you both played lights out amazing in this game and especially to Maria who led multiple eliminations on scum and almost singlehandedly carried the town to the win.Show"I hope one day I can openly play as wolfy as Pooky and get zero pressure for it grumble grumble."
-MariaR
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That evil teddy bear has got everyone twirling by his thumb.
It's like witnessing an slow but unavoidable train crash you can't stop."
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Big Chungus Gaming AnyGoonAny
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Titus She/herMoon WalkerShe/her
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The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.ShowThe scum had the misfortune of Titus being absurdly accurate on day one.Really quite impressed by that.~Drixx
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Lukewarm Paragon of Mafia Hunters
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The argument is that it was townsided, and that scum just happened to win despite that.In post 3808, Titus wrote:The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
So saying that town could have won "if people played mafia" does not counter that point lol-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Omg what is your deal?In post 3808, Titus wrote:The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.
Seriously I died and said I was unsure EoD.
Seriously you tried taking the elim away from conf scum for your opinion
I wasn’t king math I was cooperatey and liked MathScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Fair. I still think N2 claim resulting in unavoidable 3 shots breaks it worse than N1 but yeah.In post 3806, PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:the only thing that was needed to "break" the setup was for the disloyal vig to claim on d2 and ask for protection and the protective to stay quiet and protect him because the mafia team has literally no way to interact with that.
we would've fired on the vig because we have no expectation there should be a protective given that we have no counterplay to the vig, our nightkill would've failed and then we would've promptly gotten stomped into the dirt even if we managed multiple mislims because lol disloyal vig?!
I really appreciate giving the mafia team a "loyal one shot bodyguard" as the only way to "interact" with a town disloyal vigilante.
It was kind of a extra hard "go fuck yourself" role.
Congrats to Luke/Enchant you both played lights out amazing in this game and especially to Maria who led multiple eliminations on scum and almost singlehandedly carried the town to the win.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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Still broken that way too very much a blah setup.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MariaR Alternatively,
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Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3In post 3808, Titus wrote:The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.I bet Maria is scum this game~FirebringerNa Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game~Charloux
MariaR goes for the uwu owo tsundere-dere look but you never know if she has a knife behind her back.~Bitmap-
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furtiveglance He/HimJack of All TradesHe/Him
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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I think this depends on your role.In post 3814, furtiveglance wrote:I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:
If you’re a scummy role (or one perceived as such) fake claiming can be disastrous but holding off can be okay if played right.
The main issue I had was that you fake claimed and were caught by a rolecop which is very like a guilty that you had to be elimmed at that point.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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You could hold off and say “nope not gonna” if it’s protown to do so but be prepared to explain later but also give something to the discussion.
Like a “not yet because (something moves game forward)”ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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schadd_ he/itpandora's pukeboxhe/it
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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Sorry I misread you MariaIn post 3813, MariaR wrote:
Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3In post 3808, Titus wrote:The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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MariaR Alternatively,
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Used to it Math, no hard feelings, it'd be kinda mean if I got mad at you for reading me wrong.In post 3818, MathBlade wrote:
Sorry I misread you MariaIn post 3813, MariaR wrote:
Sorry I couldn’t bring it home always nice when we find each other villa <3In post 3808, Titus wrote:The balance was fine, if people played mafia scum lost this.
Luke's slot was such obvious scum but King Math said no so town lost.I bet Maria is scum this game~FirebringerNa Maria isn't towny enough to be scum this game~Charloux
MariaR goes for the uwu owo tsundere-dere look but you never know if she has a knife behind her back.~Bitmap-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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The issue with this is that "numbers standpoint" implies some level of statistical backing that is misleading. I definitely don't punch EVs for more than the most simplistic setups, but the reliance then should be on general heuristics and empirical experience, and it's important not to equate gut feeling with numbers without highlighting any intermediate steps.In post 3800, schadd_ wrote:another thing is when i refer to balance from a numbers standpoint, i purely mean how often id expect town to win. i dont think anybody really numerically analyzes normal setups, especially past micro size, its like too hard.
I've designed my own ridiculously townsided setup, and it sucks to be wrong in a volunteer position that tends to only really get attention when things go wrong. I put this setup in discussion with other Normal games to suggest it's a more systemic failure. There's a strong aversion to any kind of predictability in normal games which tend to defeat the entire point of the queue.
I think this one I can be more specific.In post 3799, schadd_ wrote:when i give scum a roleblocker it creates a small amount of scenarios where they pick good blocks (i think this generally happens by luck) and then a large amount of scenarios where they don't, and it maybe feels like it was their fault instead of my fault and so they dont offer criticism. i dont like that. i want scum to have truly actionable decisions to make instead of aesthetic ones and i think those are rare, and come more often from tricky town roles than like traditionally strong scum roles.
You're right that good blocks tend to happen by luck early, butwhen players claim, that luck gets reduced or entirely eliminated and scum gets adequately rewarded for forcing a claim out, or in the event a town player acted unilaterally thinking it was an apt moment, we want to provide adequate counterplay for scum/punishment to the town if the claim was preemptive while keeping the reward for town if they're correct. A simple concrete example of this structure is a cop claiming on Day 1 with no flips, versus a cop claiming on Day 2 with a flipped scum roleblocker. Few people would complain that the cop had their agency stripped if they're punished for the first, and few people would complain that scum had their agency stripped in the second.
As other people have stated, the only things keeping town in check this game was the even-night modifier and the assumption/fear that scum had some kind of mechanical counterplay, as opposed to them actually having mechanical counterplay. I want to really emphasize the normative point: Chiseling away at that assumption is not really something we really want to encourage as a matter of the health of the queue.-
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Prism AnyDispersion of InsightAny
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It's also probably worth responding to your point that I should join the NRG or run a Normal myself instead of throwing peanuts from the spectator gallery, though I imagine it applies to the critics more broadly. I am very eager to run games I've already designed at a moment's notice, and ran a normal with a setup by someone else that I was happy with earlier this year. However, I personally have a precondition for doing so that is irrelevant to the topic at hand.-
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Frogsterking He/himJack of All TradesHe/him
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I agree, I think ultimately most of the burden falls on Math and I rather than yourself.In post 3814, furtiveglance wrote:I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:
Math forced a mass claim at a time it was suboptimal so that he could use his role like an investigator, and I didn't seriously consider that you may have claimed VT because you weren't sure what else to do.
I think you were for the most part caught in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario because the two loudest players (Math and I) were not handling the situation effectively.Bruce: Terry. I've been thinking about something you once told me... and you were wrong. It's not Batman that makes you worthwhile; it's the other way around. Never tell yourself anything different.
Terry: ...Thanks.-
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MathBlade He/HimTechnical SupportHe/Him
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I disagree.In post 3822, Frogsterking wrote:
I agree, I think ultimately most of the burden falls on Math and I rather than yourself.In post 3814, furtiveglance wrote:I feel like my elimination was pretty unfortunate. When people start to claim next time, should I just straight up claim? I didn't really want to, I wanted to hide D:
Math forced a mass claim at a time it was suboptimal so that he could use his role like an investigator, and I didn't seriously consider that you may have claimed VT because you weren't sure what else to do.
I think you were for the most part caught in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario because the two loudest players (Math and I) were not handling the situation effectively.
I think my reads were poor but mechanics spot on since I was the talk of killing me in the PT.
If you fake claim fake well otherwise reap the consequences.ScumBlade's eloquent performance left me utterly disoriented, debased, depraved and sent me spiraling into a horrific murky abyss with emotional turmoil and immense despair as my only companions until slowly I suffocate in my own gloom, surrounded by failure. I will never recover. -- Zachstralkita about Mini 1841
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KittyTacky he/himMafia Scumhe/him
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