Mini 2307 | Songs from Glee! | Endgame

[KatyKimFanClub]

Again, as I mentioned at the time, early-game meta reads on Page 4/5 are the bread and butter of a town!Daisy game, and I offered an example of a game where I did this exact kind of play as town. It's a better vote than a pure RVS vote, which is what my Elements vote was, because there is at least some solid information backing up the vote and it typically generates some strong discussion (which it did!!). I also think your point about Elements being at 3 votes is bogus because Elements was literally voting themselves at the time, so I don't understand why I as a scumparter to Elements would be in a rush to alleviate the pressure there if Elements wanted a wagon on themselves?

It's still three votes. The proximity of the updated vote count and the push on me is significant.

[OopsieDaisy]

I don't think it's a blatant misrep. PP literally unvoted you because of Elements' post. The Elements post is where the wagon goes from progressing to regresssing.

The wagon literally cannot progress from E-1 what do you mean? He unvotes because he doesn't want an errant hammer, it's not like he doesn't scumread me anymore. You can see this from the fact that he continues to interrogate me for like another 2 pages.

And who do you think caused that unvote out of a fear of an errant hammer?

[KatyKimFanClub]

What you're seeing here is the first post noting that if the binary agenda read I have is right, we've got a scum!Elements here. And then the second post adds a bit of nuance. I'm trying to figure out there why a scum!Elements makes that post in a town!KKFC world, and this is a question I haven't been able to find a satisfying answer to the whole game. Hunting for a hammer *that* early in Day 1 just isn't a good play as scum and that's what I was working out in that post. I don't understand how I can be clearer with my read on Elements, it feels like I've had to make these same points over and over and over again like I'm in some twisted groundhog day mafia game lmao.

Elements was clearly not actually hunting for a hammer, as we both know from Day 1. This was the basis of your "agenda" read on Elements, since it was clear Elements was making the post for a reaction-hunting reason.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I don't think it's a blatant misrep. PP literally unvoted you because of Elements' post. The Elements post is where the wagon goes from progressing to regresssing.

The wagon literally cannot progress from E-1 what do you mean? He unvotes because he doesn't want an errant hammer, it's not like he doesn't scumread me anymore. You can see this from the fact that he continues to interrogate me for like another 2 pages.

And who do you think caused that unvote out of a fear of an errant hammer?

Daisy, I was clearly still on the hot seat. PP said he's unvoting because he doesn't want me to get hammered right there. No one is hammering me on Page 8 of the game either way. That post did not make him stop suspecting me.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Then give me the reason!!! If you're so sure I've been setting you up with my logic on Elements, can you tell me why Elements makes that intent to hammer post as scum if you're town? I have been asking this question for the vast majority of this game and not a single player has been able to give a satisfying answer bar what I have with you and Elements both being scum together.

I don't have to answer for Element's reasoning. I wouldn't make that play and I don't know why Elements did. Maybe for towncred? It's easy to say like "oh I thought KKFC was scummy but I didn't want to hammer and end day too early". Also makes it easy to come back and wagon me later.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Here's the smoking gun.

Why haven't you presented ANY other possible partners for Elements this entire game? You said it's not RN, you said it was possibly Skygazer yesterday but only if I was the partner. Elements has consistently been in your second tier of reads, but why have you only thought it possible for Elements to be partners with me?

You've had interactions with Elements yes, but a ton of them are fluff. The only time you push Elements ever is for the weird intent to hammer post on me and you drop it in every context except for the "scum!Elements doesn't do this to town!KKFC" narrative.

You thought the post was scummy, yet you never pursued Elements seriously the entire game.

Similarly, you still haven't interacted with Elements today, OR RE-EVALUATED YOUR READS ON ELEMENTS AT ALL, despite the fact that Elements should be confirmed to you at this point.

The entire introspective, evolving-reads style of your Daisy-play that has been directed towards me this game has never appeared when you're interacting with Elements. Sure, you've interacted with things like asking questions or asking PP for their read on Elements, but you've never played hardball with them when it mattered. Literally just one time you scumread them for the hammer-agenda thing, then you said it was resolved despite Elements not responding to the post.

[KatyKimFanClub]

The crux of my RN townread comes down to the question: Who is RN paired with?

Kitty is an option but PP's got experience reading the slot and they like Kitty this game
I'm an option for well, disrupting the entire wagon and putting us in this spot. But I get to discount that world :3

But who else? Like who's throwing themselves into a Day 2 bus this hard? It's in Elements' scumrange but my logic on the slot goes against this world (but they've hopped wagons onto me now..). KKFC hadn't actually voted and was buying time for RN to come back, but he would've had to work hard in order to justify not voting there since he vocally did not like the slot (and is now voting there when I'm an option). Sky has RN rock bottom of their reads and hasn't rly given RN a single out. And PP's super town this game in my eyes.

Writing this out makes El and KKFC look like they potentially could be partners, but both possibilities feel tenuous. Tho the worry I'm wrong on the Elements read is creeping up on me, they 100% would use a bad read I had on them as an excuse to push me as scum.

@Skygazer and @Kitty this is the only time Daisy ever considers that Elements could be scum, yet it happens after the vote on RN has basically been confirmed to happen because of the deadline.

It would make sense that they would start to distance more after it's confirmed the game is going into ELO.

[OopsieDaisy]

Why haven't you presented ANY other possible partners for Elements this entire game? You said it's not RN, you said it was possibly Skygazer yesterday but only if I was the partner. Elements has consistently been in your second tier of reads, but why have you only thought it possible for Elements to be partners with me?

You know exactly why I think Elements can only be partnered with you. I don't think I can be clearer. I know Elements very very well as a mafia player we've been playing together for years. I do not know why Elements makes that intent to hammer post if they're scum and you're town.

There's also the fact that well, Kitty is confirmed and Sky will prolly be confirmed in the night (and doesn't make sense with either of you as a scumpartner). The only possibility left in this game FMPOV is you and Elements, and lo and behold that possibility has been there in my head since Day 1.

I feel vindicated right now and yet no-one else seems to be able to see it and it's so frustrating.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Idk man, just reread Daisy's iso and ask yourself if you think she's ever given me a fair shot this game. And then ask yourself if she let Elements off too easy for the intent to hammer post, the only thing Elements has done this game that's really pinged Daisy.
If you believe she hasn't for either, which I think should be fairly apparent, then it's straightforward that the entire "let's vote KKFC" and "no scum!Elements if town!KKFC" posts are linked.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You know exactly why I think Elements can only be partnered with you. I don't think I can be clearer. I know Elements very very well as a mafia player we've been playing together for years. I do not know why Elements makes that intent to hammer post if they're scum and you're town.

Then why haven't you pushed Elements since post 299?

[OopsieDaisy]

Unless there's some world where Skygazer sits on their scumpartner the entirety of Day 1 or I'm completely off-base with the read I have on Elements (scum with kkfc, don't think they work with anyone else), I am right.

[OopsieDaisy]

You know exactly why I think Elements can only be partnered with you. I don't think I can be clearer. I know Elements very very well as a mafia player we've been playing together for years. I do not know why Elements makes that intent to hammer post if they're scum and you're town.

Then why haven't you pushed Elements since post 299?

Because Day 1 and Day 2 pushing someone out based on the fact they can only be scum with one player makes absolutely no sense. The odds just aren't in your favour there are they? Now that the POE has shrunk considerably I'm very confident that my read is correct.

I've also been pushing you and Elements as scum this entire day phase.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Unless there's some world where Skygazer sits on their scumpartner the entirety of Day 1 or I'm completely off-base with the read I have on Elements (scum with kkfc, don't think they work with anyone else), I am right.

So let me get this straight. You've known the scumteam has been me and Elements for a while then. Since your information on Skygazer is coming from a Day 1 voting pattern.

[KatyKimFanClub]

I've also been pushing you and Elements as scum this entire day phase.

Yes... because it's confirmed to you. Why haven't you ever pushed Elements before then? My whole point is that should have thought Elements was scum considering the strength of your read on me.

Your Day 2 is entirely too passive for what you would be confident would be a miselim, and the whole "oh no I have no time and my vote is forced" is theatrical.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Answer my question please. Why did your read on Elements suddenly turn in 299, and why did you make no serious efforts to sort the slot afterwards?

[OopsieDaisy]

Unless there's some world where Skygazer sits on their scumpartner the entirety of Day 1 or I'm completely off-base with the read I have on Elements (scum with kkfc, don't think they work with anyone else), I am right.

So let me get this straight. You've known the scumteam has been me and Elements for a while then. Since your information on Skygazer is coming from a Day 1 voting pattern.

No, I came to this realisation today when looking back and colour coding the wagons. You can see this realisation in post 889. This is why I felt the Skygazer/KKFC scumteam was possible on Day 2 but not Day 3.

[KatyKimFanClub]

You sure asked me a lot of questions, and you were more confident in my being scum.

If Elements only had one possible partner ever... why not try to find out more earlier in the game? Was your hypothetical town plan waiting until the game got to ELO to confront Elements?

[KatyKimFanClub]

cause right now i'm sat on:
skygazer who i townread super hard i rly liked their day 1
pp who i definitely like this game
elements who could be paired with kkfc but otherwise i don't see scum motivation in their "intent to hammer" post
kkfc who's growing on me as he gets to play without pressure. i maintain that his twilight readlist was super good to see and it gave my read a big boost here

Explain this post then?

[KatyKimFanClub]

If you townread Skygazer and PP at the start of Day 2, why did you never push Elements Day 2?

[OopsieDaisy]

You sure asked me a lot of questions, and you were more confident in my being scum.

If Elements only had one possible partner ever... why not try to find out more earlier in the game? Was your hypothetical town plan waiting until the game got to ELO to confront Elements?

There's no need to hunt for it earlier in the game. I felt that the pairing would naturally solve itself as slots flipped. And if I was able to get a flip out of the two, I wanted it to be you cause imo you had more possible scumpartners both on Day 1 and Day 2. Keep in mind because I never finished my Skygazer ISO the fact they were on you all of Day 1 wasn't at the forefront of my mind, so I also felt that was a possible world pre-today.

[OopsieDaisy]

cause right now i'm sat on:
skygazer who i townread super hard i rly liked their day 1
pp who i definitely like this game
elements who could be paired with kkfc but otherwise i don't see scum motivation in their "intent to hammer" post
kkfc who's growing on me as he gets to play without pressure. i maintain that his twilight readlist was super good to see and it gave my read a big boost here

Explain this post then?

Yea this was my townpool pre-knowing what check PP got onto Kitty and pre-the wagon that made me think RN was town. You and Elements were both in it. It was only when I realised Kitty/RN were likely town that I reevaluated these slots.

[OopsieDaisy]

Ultimately the read I was most confident on out of the four was my Elements read, so I stuck on it. Nothing had presented itself that contradicted a KKFC/Elements scumpair.

[KatyKimFanClub]

Your reasoning for me and Elements today is that Elements cannot be scum if I was town. Yet this entire game you've operated as though I wasn't town. So, once again, why did you never question Elements on anything?

You have a player in your pool who can only be partners with someone who to you has been scummy since Page 4.

[OopsieDaisy]

Your reasoning for me and Elements today is that Elements cannot be scum if I was town. Yet this entire game you've operated as though I wasn't town. So, once again, why did you never question Elements on anything?

You have a player in your pool who can only be partners with someone who to you has been scummy since Page 4.

I read you as town from twilight D1 up until my RN realisation in D2 and the following reevaluation of my reads. My read on you has not been that you have been consistently scummy the entire game.

[OopsieDaisy]

Anyways I think a break is probably in order, we've been going at it for a good couple pages. Prolly best to see what the rest of the group thinks of this.