Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[DragonEater70]

I definitely support keeping a slot exclusive for mini/micro simple/regular games.

21 players sounds like a good limit for Normals. I also won't oppose 19 as a limit though I can see why others might.

[Gypyx]

like you've said, a time limit feels really superfluous for normal games, there's not really much difference between one signup to the next one

otherwise, while i agree with the point about limit larges to 21 players, i kinda wanna play devil's advocate and say that in practice we rarely get games that go above that limit, and saying "no you can't make this 24 players, but with 3 less players it's cool" is a bit weird of an end result for that

if our main worry is about larges, which this kinda seems to be about in the end, maybe a queue specially made for "whichever normal fills up first" could help? Of course this would help with minis at first since they're smaller, but i feel like a part of the reason as to why minis get filled up easier is just that people often default to it when they don't care about what to play

[Gypyx]

I definitely support keeping a slot exclusive for mini/micro simple/regular games.

21 players sounds like a good limit for Normals. I also won't oppose 19 as a limit though I can see why others might.

problem is that 19 isn't a super elegant size for setups

generally sizes go like this in terms of alignement ratios :

2v7
3v10
4v13
5v16 (21p)

you would need to ironically make less "normal" normals to run 19p setups

[DragonEater70]

I never said people had to use 19 often, I just like the option of being able to run a game like that once in a very long while. Like if we, theoretically, set the maximum to 19, I'd expect most Larges to run on 17, and then sometimes myself or someone would come along with a whack 19p setup.

[TemporalLich]

I kinda feel 21 is a reasonable cap for normal game size

though that's because 21 is the largest a Simple Normal game can be, as 16 Town and 5 Mafia is a valid Simple Normal alignment ratio

19 is also a good reasonable cap but that would mean 21 player Simple Normal games would need to be ran as Large Themes

[DragonEater70]

if our main worry is about larges, which this kinda seems to be about in the end,

maybe a queue specially made for "whichever normal fills up first" could help?

Of course this would help with minis at first since they're smaller, but i feel like a part of the reason as to why minis get filled up easier is just that people often default to it when they don't care about what to play

What exactly do you mean by that? Like allowing multiple larges to simultaneously enter signups but letting players say "in for whichever fills first"?

[Gypyx]

if our main worry is about larges, which this kinda seems to be about in the end,

maybe a queue specially made for "whichever normal fills up first" could help?

Of course this would help with minis at first since they're smaller, but i feel like a part of the reason as to why minis get filled up easier is just that people often default to it when they don't care about what to play

What exactly do you mean by that? Like allowing multiple larges to simultaneously enter signups but letting players say "in for whichever fills first"? Because I don't think this would be enough to counteract signup dilution and would probably result in the same signup times as if we just had one large in signups, except with the illusion that games take longer to fill because they are simultaneous.

i meant more like you can sign up for the mini, for the large, or you can say "I don't care just get me in whichever starts first"

[DkKoba]

you can already do this, its called inning to both and then outing when 1 fills

[DragonEater70]

Idk if it's okay to make a request like that, but I think it'd be cool if the "Combined" modifier could be used in regular games, though probably with a warning to game designers/reviewers not to overcomplicate it. Because I think you can have combined roles that feel pretty uncomplex (at least to me), such as FN/Messenger or Neighborizer/Doctor. But anything like "vigilante/disloyal bodyguard" or "RoleGuard/Doctor/Vigilante" will make the game complex.

[Gypyx]

yeah i do agree you can make normal sounding roles with combined, but like, the thing is still that creating a whole new role is a bit outside of normal expectations imo

[DragonEater70]

My point is that not all Combined roles are outside Normal expectations, IMO.

Like how is 1-Shot Weak FN cool and expected but 1-Shot Combined Cop FN, which has almost the same functional effect, a brand new role that has to be tagged complex? How is a Combined Tracker Rolecop a brand new, totally hard to play around role? Etc.

Like obviously they are powerful roles but not more than masons (for 1-shot FN/Cop) or just a cop (for Tracker/Rolecop)

[Gypyx]

Weak is imo a modifier that kind of "takes over" any role you're putting it on, like yeah, you're sending out a message with that but you're pretty much always playing a Weak Doctor / Weak Rolecop / Weak whatever the same way

meanwhile like, Combined, even if you restrict it to "reasonable" normal roles multiplies the possibilites by a lot, and if a role gets enough demand to have it done in normals, just give it a name and make it an actual role, like an Alien just being a combined Roleblocker Rolestopper

[Enchant]

Did you consider adding more third parties in normal?

Condemner nuh?

[N]

hell no

[DragonEater70]

I don't really want third parties in Normals

It makes them much less normal.

[Gypyx]

#MakeArsonistNormal

[Ausuka]

I don't really want to add more third parties to normals

This is primarily because I hate fun

[Gypyx]

honestly that's fair, i get that once you add something there's really no point to stop

[Gypyx]

which would be bad

[DkKoba]

I don't really want to add more third parties to normals

This is primarily because I hate fun

how dare you hate centralizing roles that cause polarizing gameplay inherently due to their wincon dynamic

[Random Nurse]

Is Juggernaut-Immune Bulletproof Townie possible in Complex games?

[DragonEater70]

On paper it would be but I am not sure it gets past review.

[DkKoba]

Is Juggernaut-Immune Bulletproof Townie possible in Complex games?

very much so as the presence of a juggernaut/strongman is not necessarily guaranteed nor required against a bulletproof. what's more concerning is the existence of the infinite shot BP on a townie. complex allows some level of nonsense like this.

[Gypyx]

yeah basically it's the same as convincing the reviewers that a Town Full Bulletproof is absolutely balanced

[Enchant]

It is balanced, it's just unfair as fuck!