Normal Game Changes (New Year 2024 Update)

[Skygazer]

random thought: there are roles that can have multiple names under normal guidelines already. what if we just expanded the list of allowed names and let mods pick their preferred nomenclature? the confusion this might bring to newer players could be abated by making it a requirement to link to the role's wiki page in the role pm (which i think would be a good idea regardless)

[Skygazer]

granted, if this were done, i don't think it should be a free-for-all, as we wouldn't want situations like "town detective: you are actually a town cop." but maybe there could be a list of names for each role that are approved by default, and mods can request alternatives during the review process?

another potential upside: i've ran normals where players from other communities got tripped up at claim time due to differing language, and this would kind of put a bandaid on OGI like that.

but who knows, maybe this is an awful idea that would just create more confusion

[Gamma Emerald]

There’s a list of acceptable VT names so that might have viable precedent.

[Cook]

Vanilla Townie, Town Citizen, Villager

[Cook]

wonder if you could use multiple at once

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t think so, but I played a bastard game on my homesite where there was inconsistent role PM formatting

[Ausuka]

Hi! I'm making a new update for the New Year of 2024. It hasn't been very long since the last update, and most of the changes there haven't exactly been tested, so I'm not looking to make any major changes. Still, there are a few roles which are being added to Complex games and the Experimental list.

Action Detector

- investigates a player to learn whether they have acted, and whether anyone has acted on them.

Goon Cop

- investigates a player to learn whether or not they are a Mafia Goon.

Masonizer

- targets a player to add them to a Mason PT if they are town - the target is informed the Masonizer is town. If this role targets a non-town player, the target will not be added to the Mason PT, and the Masonizer will die.

Universal Finder

- investigates a player to learn whether or not they are a specific role. This role has to select both the target, and the role they want to check for.

Companion

- knows a specific player is town-aligned.

Stealthy

- the action this modifier applies to cannot be detected by action investigative roles

Simultaneous

- this player can use multiple personal abilities on the same night.

Making notes here - if you want a Masonizer that doesn't die upon targeting scum, Loyal Masonizer should do the trick. I think both variants are reasonably common and there was some debate in the NRG about this, but on the whole the variant that does die is easier to balance I think, so I'd rather make that the 'default' - both are possible to use either way.

Stealthy is obviously very similar to Ninja. The idea here is that in Complex games, it may be desirable to have a specific action be undetectable.

Simultaneous is similar to the old Multitasking modifier, but is inherently separate from the factional kill. This allows for something like a Mafia Simultaneous Rolecop Tracker, or a Town Simultaneous Doctor Neighborizer, where the player doesn't have to target the same person with both of their actions unlike with the Combined modifier. However, a Mafia Simultaneous Roleblocker would not function any differently from a Mafia Roleblocker, since this modifier doesn't impact the factional kill.

Some people I talked to around the time of the NRG reforms expressed they thought some forms of Informed could belong in Regular games, but I was against informed as a whole being allowed in complex games. If Companion proves to be a role people do actually like and want to use, it could potentially be added to regular games in the future.

Also, there will be some minor tweaks to the review process. Technically, moderators are supposed to send Role PMs and their opening posts into games from the beginning of the review, but this hasn't been done consistently for some time, and I'm not sure it's necessary for moderators to design their role PMs from the start when many of these roles may not end up being in the game.

For reviews beginning after the release of this update, reviews will be split into stages. First is the 'Design Stage' where the moderator consults with reviewers about what roles should be in the setup to make it balanced and fun to play. Second is the 'Finalisation Stage' where the moderator should provide their Role PMs and ruleset - I don't think the rest of the opening posts need to be made in advance, but I do think it makes sense for reviewers to quickly look over the rules. This isn't a major change, and some people will probably find it pointless, but I think it's at least helpful to some people to break it down into stages.

That's all from me - have a fantastic New Year, everyone!

[DragonEater70]

How exactly does action detector work? Is it like detective but for all types of actions?

[Firebringer]

i am actually curious how action detector is different then motion detector

[Gamma Emerald]

AD gets 2 checks, one for what target does and one for what’s done to the target. MD gets one check for both that doesn’t differentiate

[TemporalLich]

How exactly does action detector work? Is it like detective but for all types of actions?

action detector gets both a reporter and an inspector check

action detector results would be something like this:

negative / negative result - {player} has not acted and has not been targeted by anyone else
positive / negative result - {player} has acted, but has not been targeted by anyone else
negative / positive result - {player} has not acted, but has been targeted by someone else
positive / positive result - {player} has acted and has been targeted by someone else



a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be named

Executive

?

[RH9]

a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be named

Executive

?

good idea imo

[TemporalLich]

a role that checks if a player has ever attempted to use an active ability is not a role with a name yet: perhaps that role could be named

Executive

?

good idea imo

added Executive to the wiki lol

[biancospino]

Is there any difference at all between "ActionDetecor" and "combined Reporter Inspector", other than interacting differently with Finders and ModifierCops? Otherwise it seems very redundant

[RH9]

Is there any difference at all between "ActionDetecor" and "combined Reporter Inspector", other than interacting differently with Finders and ModifierCops? Otherwise it seems very redundant

I think that they are the same.

[RH9]

At least, according to the wiki.

[DragonEater70]

Regarding the Normal Queue: I love the thing where there is always a game slot reserved for Simples (and technically also regulars but I don't think anyone has even run a regular so far). However, I have an issue with there being only one other slot, which can sometimes get clogged up with super-large games (probably any game with over 19 players would be considered super large) that just never fill up and then you have to wait a long time to run Complex Minis, or Complex Micros, or 17p Larges, etc.

Would it be possible to have super-large games, which usually take months to fill up (see Large Normal 244), take up a special slot that doesn't clog the queue?

[Gamma Emerald]

shortly before I joined iirc, large normals were like large themes where they had individual sign-up threads

[DragonEater70]

That could be a decent idea!

[Gypyx]

i mean, yeah it's clogging up the queue kinda, but also, normals aren't like opens / themes, one doesn't really differentiate from another in signups, apart from size i guess, so there's not really any point to splitting it up? It would even dilute the queue imo

[DragonEater70]

I don't think it would dilute the queue, specifically because these mega-large games take months to fill up. I think that when someone signs up for one of these, they aren't planning to play it right away - so it doesn't stop them from signing up to other games. I do agree that having three 17p Larges simultaneously in signups is not a good idea. Since yeah, that would dilute signups.

I also disagree that there is no difference between (non-Simple) Normals. When somebody signs up to a biancospino game, they should EXPECT a heavy mechanical puzzle with obscure roles that interact in interesting ways. When you sign up for one of Datisi's games, you expect heavy mod WIFOM (or so I've heard). And I'm sure people sign up for or avoid these games based on these expectations. There is a reason why the designer + reviewers of a setup are listed in the queue.

[DragonEater70]

Another point is I don't think mega-large games run frequently enough for the signups to compete with one another. So having either a dedicated slot or a separate thread really shouldn't result in any dilution, IMO.

[Gypyx]

what i meant is more like, 2 mini signups would now compete with one another, especially considering most minis are relatively normal apart from the menace to society mods that you mentionned

[DragonEater70]

I think a Complex Mini and a Simple Mini are different enough to justify the competition? IDK. Also if the proposed change were implemented right this minute, the second slot would be 15-17p larges, not minis (based on the signup posts).

menace to society mods

[Ausuka]

I want to acknowledge I've seen this and been thinking about it. I don't think there's any solutions I immediately like. It's definitely a problem that it's impossible for certain games to be in the queue while a very large game is in signups for months. At the same time, the reason we merged the queues in the first place was to reduce the amount of games in signups at the same time because we want to reduce the length of those signups. Having three games in signups at the same time could put that at risk. Maybe it's worth doing anyway, and I want to think about it more, but at the very least it will be a discussion made by the mod team as a whole rather than just me. I think I want to keep the simple/regular micro/mini thing, because it ensures that new players have something suitable to sign up for when they first join. And having two large normals in signups does seem like a bit of a nightmare to me, although a complex mini could be more, uh, complex in how it could be handled since all three could hypothetically appeal to different people.

I think something that could potentially be done is limit large normals to 21 players. Themes wouldn't be affected at all, of course, but I do think games bigger than that aren't super 'normal' in the first place, and do risk taking a very long time to fill more so than other large normals. I think 21 is a natural cap, because in my experience at least it's a pretty common number of players to have historically, and I think above 21 adding more players doesn't necessarily do a lot for the experience?

It could also be possible to limit the amount of time an individual game can be in signups. Obviously, this is done to the theme queue, and it's pretty effective in that people often just aren't interested in signing up for certain games. I do think that's less true for the normal queue, though - it's true that tags like Simple, Regular and Complex can indicate to people what kind of game they're signing up for - I think that's a good thing - but while Simple games fill significantly more quickly, the difference isn't

that

big. I would worry that any limit we could set would apply to all large games, which often do fill rather slowly these days, and just like make it hard for many large normals to fill at all, which obviously isn't what we want. And if we make the limit long, it's not necessarily going to help if your worry is about waiting months for your game to go into signups. I'm open to the idea, but I'm a little skeptical about it?