Secret Hitler (Game Over)

This forum is for playing games other than Mafia and Mafia variants.
Mitillos
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: August 23, 2012
Pronoun: He

Post Post #700  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:03 pm

So, gg, and also sorry to everyone for all my bullshit. I absolutely loathe playing evil side, and I really didn't like that I made mallow (and anyone else) stop posting, even if it was good for my wincon. Same goes for shooting NicoRobin.

At the time, I was a bit salty at BuJ for claiming fasc on inspi, as I thought it was too risky a move, but thankfully it worked out well in the end.
I was also a bit salty at nsg/Klick for not burying that one L card and grabbing an execution, but again it worked out alright in the end so I can't complain.
Overall, I think my teammates did really well. The libs also played very well, except when they got fatigue from the long days, making small mistakes we could capitalise on, and getting some really unlucky draws. Other than deck RNG shenanigans, I think it could have gone either way towards the end.

Without minimising anyone else's contributions, let me make two specific mentions: Inspi's play after the investigation on him was often really subtle and effective. It really helped make BuJ more trustworthy, without making it obvious that this was the goal. I had to check several times to make sure that I remembered the roles correctly, for every single one of my teammates. Also, S_S is a formidable opponent. Almost every time he posted after he investigated me, I would look at the thread in dread, knowing that I would have to both play defense and aggressively go after him on flimsy pretexts, or be drawn and quartered. The only thing that backfired on him was the whole "S_S is almost certainly not Hitler" thing which both he and I pushed, which would also implicitly suggest "BuJ is almost certainly not Hitler"; this I believed was our only good chance for victory, as I didn't know how the cards would fall. I was also really flattered when S_S called me calculating.

And yeah, I believe the only ones who buried an L were BuJ on election 3 and I on election 7.
You don't have ambiguity; you have options.

Klick
Jack of All Trades
 
User avatar
Joined: September 01, 2012
Pronoun: They

Post Post #701  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:22 pm

I really wanted to replace in as town and bring life to the game, so it sucked when I drew Fascist and realized the best way to play to my wincon was to let the game go at the same pace it was going. :(
GG everyone.

2 718281828459
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: May 25, 2018
Location: Depends on your frame of reference.
Pronoun: He

Post Post #702  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:01 pm

I kind of want to do this again, but this time:
1. We need to prod inactive players. Like, you have to post once in five days or something.
2. I want to start from the beginning. I replaced into the worst possible slot: a townie who was suspected by several people.
3. We should have the opportunity to discuss the game between nomination and voting!! I voted JA because I trusted the president, and we had no chance to discuss BuJaber's possibilities of being hitler. In the real game, the only communication restriction is that you cannot talk during the legislative session.
Votes should still be finished within a week, though.
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

Please be kind to Allomancer and join the nomic game: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78211

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #703  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 17, 2018 10:21 pm

In post 702, 2 718281828459 wrote:3. We should have the opportunity to discuss the game between nomination and voting!! I voted JA because I trusted the president, and we had no chance to discuss BuJaber's possibilities of being hitler. In the real game, the only communication restriction is that you cannot talk during the legislative session.
Votes should still be finished within a week, though.


Is this true?

Because I always thought the president can say "I'll pick x" as many times as they want, but as soon as they officially pick players hsve to vote. Either way live game is different because it's much more fluid.. there's a lot of overlap sort of between the 'phases' because people can't talk and place votes in perfect unison.

@mitillos - I didn't want to investigate a fascist. Was hoping for liberal. However when I saw it was fascist I figured it's best to create TvS wifom. ESPECIALLY that I thought for sure whoever investigated the 2nd time would pick either me or inspi. If I called him a liberal and they investigate one of us that would expose BOTH of us.

inspiratieloos
MishMash Game
 
User avatar
Joined: February 13, 2011
Location: The Netherlands
Pronoun: He

Post Post #704  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:50 am

In post 700, Mitillos wrote:I was also a bit salty at nsg/Klick for not burying that one L card and grabbing an execution, but again it worked out alright in the end so I can't complain.

... My entire play after that presidency was based on the 'knowledge' that there was no way nsg didn't bury a Liberal there.

I guess we dodged a bullet with your presidency.

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #705  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:00 am

This actually is a lesson to all. You correctly assumed I threw a liberal. But the whole playerlist was under the assumption that 2 people threw liberals. Turns out only 1 did. Deck ate the rest. Gotta be careful with assumptions.

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #706  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:02 am

(Mitilos was after the deck shuffle)

2 718281828459
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: May 25, 2018
Location: Depends on your frame of reference.
Pronoun: He

Post Post #707  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:17 pm

In post 703, BuJaber wrote:
In post 702, 2 718281828459 wrote:3. We should have the opportunity to discuss the game between nomination and voting!! I voted JA because I trusted the president, and we had no chance to discuss BuJaber's possibilities of being hitler. In the real game, the only communication restriction is that you cannot talk during the legislative session.
Votes should still be finished within a week, though.


Is this true?

Because I always thought the president can say "I'll pick x" as many times as they want, but as soon as they officially pick players hsve to vote. Either way live game is different because it's much more fluid.. there's a lot of overlap sort of between the 'phases' because people can't talk and place votes in perfect unison.

In the live game, you can say "Bad pick! Bad pick! Vote nein!" or "Oh, that was unexpected. Do we trust ___? Ok, I guess I will ja." right after the president makes the nomination.

@mitillos - I didn't want to investigate a fascist. Was hoping for liberal. However when I saw it was fascist I figured it's best to create TvS wifom. ESPECIALLY that I thought for sure whoever investigated the 2nd time would pick either me or inspi. If I called him a liberal and they investigate one of us that would expose BOTH of us.[/quote]
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

Please be kind to Allomancer and join the nomic game: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78211

Ausuka
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: July 22, 2017
Pronoun: She

Post Post #708  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:20 pm

ftr deck 1 was

Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Liberal Policy
Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Liberal Policy

and deck 2 was

Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Fascist Policy
Liberal Policy
Liberal Policy
Fascist Policy
electric

Mitillos
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: August 23, 2012
Pronoun: He

Post Post #709  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:07 pm

Why is deck 2 not only 12 cards long? The policies that are passed stay out of the deck until the end of the game. It's lucky that the last 5 policies in the second deck are 2L3F, matching the policies passed exactly.
You don't have ambiguity; you have options.

Ausuka
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: July 22, 2017
Pronoun: She

Post Post #710  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:20 pm

Jesus christ I'm such an idiot how the fuck did I miss that. Sorry. At least it did follow the rules listed in the OP I think since I never knew that >.>
electric

Something_Smart
Best Mechanic
 
User avatar
Joined: November 17, 2015
Location: Rochester Institute of Technology
Pronoun: He

Post Post #711  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:59 pm

In post 705, BuJaber wrote:This actually is a lesson to all. You correctly assumed I threw a liberal. But the whole playerlist was under the assumption that 2 people threw liberals. Turns out only 1 did. Deck ate the rest. Gotta be careful with assumptions.

Nope, that assumption was completely valid and was the correct play to make. It's better to sacrifice some chance of winning in an unlikely case for a chance of winning in a more likely case-- and even with that assumption that turned out to be wrong, we still had several paths to victory.

If you keep the attitude of "anything is possible," by definition it's going to screw you more than it's going to help you.

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #712  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:57 pm

Is it though?
Don't you think someone in your position would have been better off without that assumption putting you in the scum pool?

Why didn't you want any of the 'investigation 4' to be picked earlier? I as hitler was trying to argue from a town perspective I'm curious what about avoiding them makes it better for liberals?

inspiratieloos
MishMash Game
 
User avatar
Joined: February 13, 2011
Location: The Netherlands
Pronoun: He

Post Post #713  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:10 am

In many social deduction games you need to actually know the exact teams by the end in order to win, however in Secret Hitler you only need a few well positioned people, so a Liberal being eliminated in exchange for a Fascist being eliminated is perfectly fine.

Which is the reason your play was pretty bad, there's no particular reason to try and figure out which of the people in a 1v1 is the Fascist and which is the Liberal a lot of the time so you accusing me of being a Fascist eliminates both of us if everyone just ignored it, even if no one figures out the plan. We just got really lucky SS drew FFF and investigated a Fascist, which made a row of 3 1v1 people and forced the issue.

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #714  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 19, 2018 5:46 am

I guess this game is just not for me. Everytime I end up arguing what I think is optimal and someone gives me reasons why I'm wrong and I just can't see their point of view. You explain yourself incredibly well but I still don't get why what you're saying is better than knowing which is a fascist in a 1v1.

I stopped playing in real life I found myself arguing with both liberals and fascist all the time. At some point I realized it had to be me. This game confirms that it wasn't just my real life group. Plenty of other social deduction games out there that I feel I do quite well in. Just this particular game I can't figure out for some reason. Like my most recent games in real life was a few weeks before this started, and pretty much all of my reads were based on knowing the players very well and sometimes getting lucky but mostly not being able to convince people of my alignment and reads so they were worthless even if accurate.

Something_Smart
Best Mechanic
 
User avatar
Joined: November 17, 2015
Location: Rochester Institute of Technology
Pronoun: He

Post Post #715  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:51 am

I bet I have an idea as to why.

Secret Hitler is not a conventional social deduction game. For one, it's very hard to form reads-- the two fascist strategies are basically "long game" (play liberals) or "short game" (dump liberals)-- and there's SOME nuance in there, I know, but overall it's very easy to play a consistent and decent fascist strategy. Furthermore, the outcome of any one government, early on at least, matters little, and you can contrast this to something like Resistance where every mission is huge and who supported it or opposed it is very revealing. Finally, even the fascists, who are the informed ones, lack a lot of information-- and the most important fascist knows virtually nothing at all.

The upshot of this is that if you play off of reads you will in general do poorly-- ESPECIALLY in a forum. Whereas, if you play off of statistics supplemented by reads when necessary, you're likely to get most things right, and like inspi said, you don't need to know everything in order to win as liberal. That's why I wanted the 1v1s removed: because it brings the game from 6:4 down to 4:2 which is a much nicer ratio. (Actually, it would have been even NICER but we didn't know that :P )

I think the answer to why this game doesn't work for you is right there in your lament-- you want a game that focuses on reads. In my opinion, the best ones for that are Resistance and Mafia itself. It's no surprise that this game attracted a lot of people I would describe as very logically minded (myself, inspi, Mitillos, 2 718, and if I missed anyone don't be mad because those were just the ones that came to mind), because it's a lot more mathematically based than most.

Hope that helps or at least sheds a little insight on the problem! :]

BuJaber
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: November 09, 2017
Pronoun: He

Post Post #716  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:37 am

You might be on to something.

I sometimes think of myself as a mathematically oriented guy, and in most aspects of gaming/life I am, but in social deduction games over time I've realized I am better at reading people and (to a much lesser extent) deception because I project a lot of fake confidence. Resistance is one of my all time favorite games. Spyfall is another fantastic one. One night ultimate werewolf also but that's probably because of how goofy it can get and the fact that it's more fun to figure out how all the night actions fit together than it is to just find out who the wolves are.

I think I incorrectly place this game in the same subcategory because of how similar they are but in terms of actual winning strategy it is different. Before you mentioned it I never considered that resistance actually differs from this that much apart from this having more game altering factors like the deck and the presidential powers as opposed to only who did/said what and when. This one might belong in a different subcategory, and there will be overlaps but going into it a player must understand the differences also.

Of course the game we're all here for, Mafia can be considered the ultimate one because of the many different variations that fit the difderent personalities of players and also because in mafia these different ways to approach the game tend to complement each other. The best towns have a variety: people who are better at reads, people who are better at VCA, people who are better at setup spec, and so on. Though in real life mafia ends up being less fun because of how long it is/ how many people it needs/ how boring it is for dead people. Shame really.

Anyway thanks for indulging me. Definitely was worth trying it in a forum format.

Mitillos
Mafia Scum
 
User avatar
Joined: August 23, 2012
Pronoun: He

Post Post #717  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:40 am

@BuJ: If someone investigated you or inspi, everyone else would have associatives on three players. If someone investigated anyone else, everyone else would have associatives on four players. In both cases this takes two investigations. As an example, suppose S_S investigated you, and claimed you were a fascist. All everyone else would know is that the two of you were likely on opposite sides. The prudent play for them would be to keep all three out of government. The problem with that is that in most cases it keeps either two fascists and one liberal, or two liberals and one fascist out of government. The second possibility is particularly bad. Add to this that anyone who investigates was in the first two governments to pass a fascist policy, and their trustworthiness won't be too high either.
On the other hand, if there are four players kept out, it's very likely that two are fascists and two are liberals, which is a much better proposition for liberals.
You don't have ambiguity; you have options.

2 718281828459
Goon
 
User avatar
Joined: May 25, 2018
Location: Depends on your frame of reference.
Pronoun: He

Post Post #718  (ISO)  » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:15 pm

If I have not already said this: I would definitely be willing to play again.
Retired Account. I have no replacement.

Please be kind to Allomancer and join the nomic game: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=78211

Previous
[ + ]

Return to The Whole Sort of General Mish Mash