Mish Mash Reorganization

[StrangerCoug]

We're focused on how to grow our userbase in Mish Mash, it's something me/xof/CC talk about a lot. Visibility is the key first step.

And I have suggested in the last sentence of #19 that we be promoted a bit more. We have Clash of the Mash, we have the Mashies, and I'm open to more events to bring more of us here. To keep the city analogy, our tourism industry needs a swift kick in the butt, and you say as much. We can be advertised without dumbing down our name for the lowest common denominator, and it's been done successfully—the high demand for Clash of the Mash 2016 comes to mind.

[zoraster]

From my perspective there are two questions: (1) Will a name change cause our current users to stop playing? (2) Will it be easier for us to get new players over to this forum if we change the name?

For the first, outside a fit of pique I don't think Mish Mash players are known for, I don't think it's likely we see fewer players simply because the name changed.
The second is where the rub is. Does "Other Games" or "Forum Games" etc. help players find it? Does it increase their likelihood to engage with it? I'm not sure, but it seems likely that at the very least a player looking at it is going to think "oh hey, that's where they play non-mafia games" whereas Mish Mash is pretty darn opaque in terms of meaning.

The mafia forums have that problem to a smaller extent, but given that sign ups don't take place on them and the sign up threads call them what they are, I don't know that's as big a problem. Perhaps we should look into that too, though.

I accept that users may have some attachment to the name Mish Mash, and I'm sympathetic to that, but at the same time it's not really the metric I want to drive decision making if we're going to continue to grow the section.

[StrangerCoug]

I'll admit I didn't notice the brief moment this place WASN'T Mish Mash, to be fair

My main two points against the name change are as follows:

1. The name didn't appear to be a problem before. Granted, it's only relatively recently (in the past few years) that the section has been getting much love from the site admins, but in my time on the site it was never a STAGNANT part thereof, meaning people have been able to find it nonetheless.
2. Renaming Mish Mash seems a logical misfit to the names of the Mafia forums not being straightforwardly named themselves—the names themselves have a method to their madness (they're all places with some sort of association with the Mafia), but the actual Mafia games run in them have only indirect, vague connections to their namesake places. That said, I'm not convinced that the names of those forums pose major problems in practice for the reasons discussed by the people in favor of changing the forum name. If anything, yes, it's a somewhat out-of-place name compared to what the others are called.

If we're hell-bent on a name change, then my proposal for a new name is Las Vegas: it brings the forum into the theme naming of the Mafia forums (Bugsy Siegel, anyone?), and it has a strong connection to non-Mafia games already, perhaps a stronger one than its former status as a Mafia stronghold. That said, I don't feel my plan B here is perfect because it leaves open the question of what to call the LSG forum: it's strongly connected to Survivor, and I'm not aware of a season set anywhere that used to have a problem with organized crime. Probably not a big deal since Mafia games aren't played there anyway, but I feel it's something to discuss.

Another thing I noticed while I was typing up this post: The categories go Mafia Games, then Discussion, then Other Forum Games, then Administration. What effect would switching the order of the middle two have?

[Ircher]

Personally, I think switching the positions of the discussion and other games forum categories would have a much greater effect than a name change. Like, I don't think most of us even noticed the name change until you made the announcement; I'd imagine a name change would have a minimal effect on the number of people in mish mash.

[mallowgeno]

I noticed it because I was confused, I clicked on General Mish mash and was taken to 'Other forum games' and 'Large Social Queue'. It just took me aback for a second and I thought I had clicked the wrong thing but I figured it out quickly. I don't think changing the name would really affect current mish mash players.

Can I ask has there been massive confusion on what Mish Mash is? Because that might help me see some perspective of why the change is necessary.

[xRECKONERx]

Maybe have like a stickied post that says what the Mish Mash forum is? I still don't understand why you would change "Other Forum Games" to "Mish Mash" because the mafia's forum title is 'Mafia Games' with things like 'Road to Rome, Coney Island, etc'. I guess it doesn't make sense to me why we wouldn't have a name like that for this forum when the forum title already is 'other games'.

because, again, the mafia games have QUEUE as the first thing you see when you land on the forum, and from there you get directed to the appropriate play threads

[xRECKONERx]

We're focused on user acquisition. Clarity makes it easier for users to know what they're looking for at a quick glance. That's our goal.

[Nero Cain]

I really don't think that renaming mish mash would accomplish that though and like right below it is "This forum is for playing games other than Mafia and Mafia variants." so like it's their fault if they don't know what it is. Personally, I feel like the site having a unique name for something just adds culture. Sorry but I just find the whole name change will get us more players is just flawed logic and more about the new regime wanting to put their stamp on it or something. If you want new players you are going to have to canvass. Now, I'm not suggesting a mass pm or anything but ya know-talk to your friends. If you think someone might be interested then shoot them a pm. And tell your real life friends (unless you don't want them to know about this nerdy hobby or something) like if you go to a game night or something they might be interested in playing games online. If you play an MMO or just whatever, wherever you think someone might be interested. I just really really don't think the renaming mish mish is going to get more players.

[Nero Cain]

the other thing is maybe add a single award for spectacular play in A game so that a new player (yes, I know there's a new player award and no I don't think they overlap) or a player with limited time can feel like they can just play well and win a mashie.

In order to be considered by the Mish Mash Scummy judging committee, a nomination must be seconded, but additional nths will increase a nominee's chances.

Also not a super huge fan of the language here. It's likely not a problem b/c I don't think that many people even care about them but awards shouldn't be a popularity contest.

Also, de-clutter and put the finished/abandoned games in the Sens Archive.

[Haschel Cedricson]

Switching Other Games and Discussion is probably the best thing to do. Then it goes "Here is where we play games" -> "Here is where we play other kinds of games" -> "Here is where we talk about things."

Right now it's "Here is where we play games" -> "Here is where we talk about things" -> "Oh yeah I guess we play some other games here."

[JDGA]

We also have "Other Forum Games" right there in the category name, if people aren't seeing that perhaps the category names could be made more prominent?

[Iprobablysuck]

Newbs have been coming steadily and frankly telling them that they're too stupid to tell that Mish Mash=forum games is more harmful

[xRECKONERx]

[data needed]

[animorpherv1]

I mean you also need to prove that people can't find the subforum too, in that regard.

[xRECKONERx]

We have data suggesting user acquisition has died off and become slower and slower, so we really don't have to prove much more than "There's a problem, we're going to test hypotheses until we find something that alleviates the issue".

[Ircher]

But hasn’t user acquisition (and retention) on the site as a whole decreased as well? Was that factored in?

[xRECKONERx]

Yes

[D3f3nd3r]

I think there’s a chance that separating out large social games hurt newbie acquisition on that side of things. Someone that looks at the LSG forum right now sees games that are few and far between, and they might get discouraged if they don’t immediately realize why there aren’t nearly as many ongoing LSGs as there are games in the other queues. If people think it’s a dead portion of the site, and there isn’t actively a game taking signups, people are going to be discouraged to join.

If LSGs were still in Mish Mash, there still wouldn’t be a ton of LSGs, but with all the other games there it would feel to an outsider that it’s a more active portion of the site.

[chamber]

I think there’s a chance that separating out large social games hurt newbie acquisition on that side of things. Someone that looks at the LSG forum right now sees games that are few and far between, and they might get discouraged if they don’t immediately realize why there aren’t nearly as many ongoing LSGs as there are games in the other queues. If people think it’s a dead portion of the site, and there isn’t actively a game taking signups, people are going to be discouraged to join.

If LSGs were still in Mish Mash, there still wouldn’t be a ton of LSGs, but with all the other games there it would feel to an outsider that it’s a more active portion of the site.

Surely a big part of this is them being played off site/nearly invisibly to most of the community.

[Cephrir]

This is probably an unconscionable idea but: what if the LSG forum had some sort of visible indicator when signups were open? Like... you could just add that to the name of the forum for ~a week.

[SleepyKrew]

or at least the queue could be kept up to date

[Klick]

^

The game that just finished is currently listed as in signups. I think the queue being out-of-date has potential to deter newbies from playing in LSGs.

[xRECKONERx]

Yeah, it's a process issue we have to button up. We changed how the queue works without putting in backstage policies for updates. I JUST edited that post about two weeks ago but I will talk to xof and CC about it.

[animorpherv1]

Two weeks ago? Then how was Reverse The Curse still listed as in signups until after it ended? Someone (probably all of you tbh) needs to be on top of that. If it was me, I'd make it so whoever the mod in charge is of that game should also keep to queue up to date on that game's status. Both before and after it hits signups

[xRECKONERx]

That's the official policy. It was complicated during Reverse the Curse because xofelf was traveling abroad during that time and we didn't have the backup systems in place yet.