Murder Riddle (Solved)

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Haschel Cedricson
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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:43 pm

(4) Ryax is lying when he says nobody is hiding in the room.
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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:51 pm

How do we think Jezz was murdered?

Although there's a Winchester next to her, there was no loud bangs. Which would lead me to conclude the method of murder was not gunfire.

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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:09 am

In post 26, Blackberry wrote:there was no loud bangs.


Except, how do we know that? A culprit could have heard the bang and done nothing about it.
EDIT: Yarn said Jezz was shot dead. So if that is false, Yarn would be a culprit.
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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:21 am

So we KNOW that Alex, Orange, Luka, Sarah, Flaming, Thorus, and Watson (7/18) are clear.
And we think that if Yarn is clear (which I am skeptical of), then that clears five more.

Sometimes when solving, say, a Sudoku and it is really hard, the best strategy is to make a guess that gives information, solve from there, and see if it leads to a contradiction. If so, erase anything you obtained from it, and use the other option.
Maybe we should do that for the murder riddle: assume that Yarn is clear, and either it leads to (1) a solution, in which case we win, or (2) a contradiction, in which case we have 1 confirmed culprit.

Cleared for sure: Alex, Orange, Luka, Sarah, Flaming, Thorus, Watson
Cleared subjunctively: Yarn, Jezz, Fen, Tech, Nate, Takumi
Not cleared: Xerxes, Fracie, Zeus, Ryax, William

So now we should go through the murders and look for who could have killed whom.
1-6: No information here. Any of the uncleared five could have done it.
7-8: Do we think that Ryax is claiming Zeus did not kill Sarah+Flaming? (Not that is matters, as murder 10 implies Ryax is unreliable.)
9: The culprit did not escape but no one checked for people hiding in the room. William either had his room key or the killer left it there.
10: Now this one is interesting. No one is hiding and the windows are locked, but the group was away for a while. That means that Alex was killed by someone who "died" earlier. (And, I just rediscovered other people's already-posted theories: it was Xerxes, Fracie, or William. Blackberry's theory has a flaw -- Xerxes + Fracie could have worked together to do that.)
11: Ryax and Zeus were away when the Orange murder happened. This one seems like it must have been Fracie, unless Xerxes or William managed to get a hold of the key to Orange's room.
12: Ryax was away, again. Zeus looks like he was away, but Luka's "Indeed" was not purple. But in the next two murders, Jezz confirms that none of the known-alives could be the killer here. So once again, this was either Xerxes, Fracie, or William.
13-14: I am not sure how this scene happened. So, a killer came in, killed Luka, grabbed the gun, got shot but survived, and then fatally shot Fen? See, this was in open space, so there is nothing to tell that this is either Xerxes, Fracie, or William.
15: Any chance that someone managed to sneak in another gun? Two guns are used up, a third MAY be used up, and Ryax+Zeus have the other two. I think Ryax lied that the gun next to Tech was unloaded. That, or a past culprit has a secret reserve of either guns or bullets.


This is getting me nowhere. I think the keys will have something to do with this whole thing. That is the one thing I have been mostly ignoring. Though given that most of the key information comes from unreliable characters... (and Zeus and Fracie have master keys, right?)

And one last thing, Yarn said in purple text that Ryax is "nice and gentle". I am not sure what the implications are, but at the very least, it seems like Ryax did not participate in the fighting scenes. (But we already know that from other means.)
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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:14 pm

Meta guess: Xerxes invited everyone so he could kill them.
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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:36 pm

In post 29, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Meta guess: Xerxes invited everyone so he could kill them.

Considering that this has stalled recently, I think we should spend more time actually trying to either
(1) prove or disprove the "Yarn is innocent" hypothesis, or
(2) figure out what is going on with all the keys.

Another option is to expand the theory so that the mod has to actually give a disproving clue. Here is my add on.

WILLIAM
William is a culprit.

William and Alex's "death" occurred when the eight others were all together. So either one of them committed the murders and faked their own death. Or one of the eight that previously died was a culprit and committed the murders.

However, none of the previous 8 that died would have a key anymore and could not create the lock room scenario that resulted in Alex's death. Even if they killed one of

We know 100% Alex did not fake his death, as the narration states Alex died.

William must have killed Alex. Dropped his key near Alex's body and took Alex's key. Locked Alex's door. Went to his own room, locked it from the inside and faked his death.

William also was the killer in every death after his fake-death.

For example, with the deaths of Fen and Luka: William used his knife to kill Luka. Fen shot William, but he survived, took Luka's gun, and fatally shot Fen. He then hid somewhere, it does not matter where.


It's possible Xerzes or Fracie also killed both of them, then took the time to go to one's room, swap the keys and then take it back to the other room and hid in William's room... but that would take time to go back and forth after killing them and there was likely not enough time to do this.


RYAX
Ryax is a culprit.

Ryax is a culprit because Ryax lied. During William and Alex's death, the only people that could have killed the victim(s) were Xerzes, Fracie, or William. However, Ryax confirmed all of their deaths. Therefore, Ryax is a culprit.


Ryax murdered Sarah and Flaming. Zeus opened the door during the first floor search, and Ryax went down and killed them. Zeus is needed here because he is a servant and has the key.


ZEUS
Zeus is a culprit.

Zeus is a culprit because he was the only person that could create the locked room mystery that resulted in Tech's death in the locked bathroom. He was the only suspect with a key that could lock the bathroom door after the murder was committed.


At 6 AM, Zeus woke up, opened the dining room, and killed the first six. I presume that he was able to do it because everyone fell asleep in their chairs. He probably also gave William a knife, and locked the kitchen afterward.

Zeus assisted in the killing of Sarah and Flaming. He and Ryax unlocked the door, Ryax went down and killed the two in the basement, and came back up. They both lied, in order to confuse the rest. Zeus probably also searched the first floor just in case someone was listening.
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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:08 pm

I apologize if I look like I'm asking too much, but I'd love if you explained how the murders were committed in the order the boodies were found.
And one last thing you missed in your theory is Jezz's death: If no gunshot was heard and Yarn is not lying with her "Jezz was shot", how could this happen? She'd be a culprit then, no?

But, I am a nice and benevolent person, so even though you are missing some of the deaths (Orange's and Jezz's), a small red you shall receive.
When Flaming's and Sarah's bodies were found, no door had been locked with a master key.

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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:37 pm

In post 31, Segaco wrote:When Flaming's and Sarah's bodies were found, no door had been locked with a master key.

I am a little confused on what this means. Does it mean
(1) The master keys were not used to lock doors AT ALL at ANY point before the bodies were found, or
(2) Any door that was locked before got unlocked by the time the bodies were found?
(Or something else?)
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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:42 pm

In post 31, Segaco wrote:Jezz's death: If no gunshot was heard and Yarn is not lying with her "Jezz was shot", how could this happen? She'd be a culprit then, no?

Well, there was a long interval were Yarn and Zeus were unaccounted for. So perhaps Yarn was too far away to have heard it, and Ryax heard it but did nothing about it? (The narration almost implies that Ryax did not kill her, but I am not sure of this.)

It would be nice if Blackberry and who else was solving this earlier came and helped sort out my thoughts on this. I am probably overlooking something big here.
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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:37 am

In post 32, 2 718281828459 wrote:
In post 31, Segaco wrote:When Flaming's and Sarah's bodies were found, no door had been locked with a master key.

I am a little confused on what this means. Does it mean
(1) The master keys were not used to lock doors AT ALL at ANY point before the bodies were found, or
(2) Any door that was locked before got unlocked by the time the bodies were found?
(Or something else?)

The first. No master key was used to lock a door before Flaming's and Sarah's bodies were found.

2 718281828459 wrote:
In post 31, Segaco wrote:Jezz's death: If no gunshot was heard and Yarn is not lying with her "Jezz was shot", how could this happen? She'd be a culprit then, no?

Well, there was a long interval were Yarn and Zeus were unaccounted for. So perhaps Yarn was too far away to have heard it, and Ryax heard it but did nothing about it? (The narration almost implies that Ryax did not kill her, but I am not sure of this.)

It would be nice if Blackberry and who else was solving this earlier came and helped sort out my thoughts on this. I am probably overlooking something big here.

When all else fails, focus on the door.

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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:28 pm

One thing that is a little odd is that it seems like Ryax or Zeus could have gone to the servant's room, found the study key (which had not been taken, right?), and used it to figure out what Jezz was doing. However, they found the need to break down the door. This is a little unusual, but I am not sure exactly what it implies. (Ryax probably at least expected the murder, though.)
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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:35 pm

I mean, I could just red-text-brute-force this problem into a solution (and I may do so if no one else helps out), but I first want to build a coherent theory. I need more time to do so.
EDIT: OK, this is closer, although I think it has several holes in it.
EDIT 2: All right, let me see how this goes.
Theory 03Ryax, Zeus, and William are the culprits.
First six murders: At 6 AM, Zeus woke up, opened the dining room, and killed some of the first six. Ryax assisted; they each killed three.
I presume that they were able to do it because everyone fell asleep in their chairs after chatting so long. Zeus also gave himself and William each a knife, and locked the kitchen by grabbing the keys out of the servants' room. He had little time, so he left the keys on the table, as Fen noticed.

Sarah and Flaming: Those two went into the basement and locked the door using the basement key, taking said key with them. Zeus used his master key to unlock the door, and killed the two. He then rushed upstairs, told Ryax about the whole deal, and they agreed on some lies to tell the group.

William killed Alex and dropped his key near Alex's body. Then, William took the key to Alex's room and locked Alex's door. Then he went to his own room, locked it from the inside, and faked his own death.

Orange was simply killed because William got in and Orange forgot to lock his own room. (The narration never says Orange locks his own room.) William used his knife, and Ryax pretended that it was a bullet wound.

Tech was stabbed in the chest four times by William.

Fen and Luka were killed in the same manner as I said in the last theory: William used his knife to kill Luka. Fen shot William, but he survived, took Luka's gun, and fatally shot Fen. He then hid somewhere, it does not matter where.

Jezz was murdered to make it look like a suicide. The reason that Ryax/Zeus did not simply go and get the study key from the servants' room is that Zeus, when unaccounted for, snuck into the servant room, grabbed the study key, delivered it quietly to Ryax, and unlocked the door. They probably talked to Jezz for a bit before Ryax grabbed the gun and shot her. Meanwhile, Zeus led Yarn somewhere that Yarn would not hear the gunshot. Ryax then made the scene look like a suicide, left, and locked the door with his study key. Then he feigned concern for Jezz and got Zeus to break down the door.


Spoiler: my thoughts from earlier
This is just for my sake. Suspects are William, Ryax, and Zeus. Backup suspects are Xerxes and Fracie.
1-6: No information here. Any of the uncleared five could have done it.
7-8: Do we think that Ryax is claiming Zeus did not kill Sarah+Flaming? (Not that is matters, as murder 10 implies Ryax is unreliable.)
9: The culprit did not escape but no one checked for people hiding in the room. William either had his room key or the killer left it there.
10: Now this one is interesting. No one is hiding and the windows are locked, but the group was away for a while. That means that Alex was killed by someone who "died" earlier. (And, I just rediscovered other people's already-posted theories: it was Xerxes, Fracie, or William. Blackberry's theory has a flaw -- Xerxes + Fracie could have worked together to do that.)
11: Ryax and Zeus were away when the Orange murder happened. This one seems like it must have been Fracie, unless Xerxes or William managed to get a hold of the key to Orange's room.
12: Ryax was away, again. Zeus looks like he was away, but Luka's "Indeed" was not purple. But in the next two murders, Jezz confirms that none of the known-alives could be the killer here. So once again, this was either Xerxes, Fracie, or William.
13-14: I am not sure how this scene happened. So, a killer came in, killed Luka, grabbed the gun, got shot but survived, and then fatally shot Fen? See, this was in open space, so there is nothing to tell that this is either Xerxes, Fracie, or William.
15: Any chance that someone managed to sneak in another gun? Two guns are used up, a third MAY be used up, and Ryax+Zeus have the other two. I think Ryax lied that the gun next to Tech was unloaded. That, or a past culprit has a secret reserve of either guns or bullets.
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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:35 am

All right, I think I finished my next theory.
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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:29 pm

In post 36, 2 718281828459 wrote:
Theory 03Ryax, Zeus, and William are the culprits.
First six murders: At 6 AM, Zeus woke up, opened the dining room, and killed some of the first six. Ryax assisted; they each killed three.
I presume that they were able to do it because everyone fell asleep in their chairs after chatting so long. Zeus also gave himself and William each a knife, and locked the kitchen by grabbing the keys out of the servants' room. He had little time, so he left the keys on the table, as Fen noticed.

Sarah and Flaming: Those two went into the basement and locked the door using the basement key, taking said key with them. Zeus used his master key to unlock the door, and killed the two. He then rushed upstairs, told Ryax about the whole deal, and they agreed on some lies to tell the group.

William killed Alex and dropped his key near Alex's body. Then, William took the key to Alex's room and locked Alex's door. Then he went to his own room, locked it from the inside, and faked his own death.

Orange was simply killed because William got in and Orange forgot to lock his own room. (The narration never says Orange locks his own room.) William used his knife, and Ryax pretended that it was a bullet wound.

Tech was stabbed in the chest four times by William.

Fen and Luka were killed in the same manner as I said in the last theory: William used his knife to kill Luka. Fen shot William, but he survived, took Luka's gun, and fatally shot Fen. He then hid somewhere, it does not matter where.

Jezz was murdered to make it look like a suicide. The reason that Ryax/Zeus did not simply go and get the study key from the servants' room is that Zeus, when unaccounted for, snuck into the servant room, grabbed the study key, delivered it quietly to Ryax, and unlocked the door. They probably talked to Jezz for a bit before Ryax grabbed the gun and shot her. Meanwhile, Zeus led Yarn somewhere that Yarn would not hear the gunshot. Ryax then made the scene look like a suicide, left, and locked the door with his study key. Then he feigned concern for Jezz and got Zeus to break down the door.

Hmm, I see.
There are several problems with this theory, some being that it is not mentioned how Tech's locked room was created, the group found Orange's body because of a loud sound coming from his room, and at the end before Jezz's death I meant to imply Yarn, Zeus and Ryax were together the entire time after Jezz went into the study.

But, instead of focusing on these little points I will shoot the core of the problem:
The moment there are more culprits than innocents, the culprits would immediately go kill off the remaining innocents.

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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:36 pm

In post 38, Segaco wrote:The moment there are more culprits than innocents, the culprits would immediately go kill off the remaining innocents.


By this statement... that means At least 2 of the remaining 3 are innocent.

And it also means there can not be more than 2 culprits.

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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:58 pm

Possibly, who knows~?

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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Well, we do.
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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:31 pm

No, because it could be that all 3 remaining are innocent and there are 3 "dead" culprits lurking. (On second thought, no, because everyone's death is ultimately confirmed by either the narration, Ryax, or Yarn.)

Question: Can a culprit fake the death of an innocent? (If so, then e.g. Xerxes or Tech could still be alive even if innocent?)
  • Argument for YES: It says culprits can fake death.
  • Argument for NO: However, if they did, the innocent would know this, and would probably eventually rise up and say "I'm not dead yet!" to the group. The only exception would maybe be Jezz.

If that is a no, then we know that at least 1 of the remaining 3 are innocent, because otherwise they would have killed Jezz before having the conversation about Fen+Luka. That confirms Yarn's innocence and one other, which clears 5 others.

I am trying to figure out how to resolve how only Zeus or only Ryax could be guilty at the very end. E.g. if Ryax and Yarn are clear, then Zeus must be doing all the killing which is impossible. So I think Ryax must be guilty. Now I have to know how Ryax, WIll, Xerxes, and Fracie could be working together to do these murders without Zeus...

Oh, another question. If the narration uses the word "corpse", does that mean 100% that the person is dead?

Again, if this is no, then I can see a few things involving Orange and Luka that are interesting...

(BTW, what color do you want for questions?)
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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:16 pm

First question: "No" is the correct answer.
Second question: A corpse is dead, so yes.

For questions normal text is fine, but you can bold/color them if you wish.

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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:14 pm

Thanks, that 100% clears Yarn, Alex, Orange, Luka, Sarah, and Flaming, while 100% convicting Ryax (clearing Zeus).
Now I need to figure out how to work in there only being 2 culprits. (The other has got to be William.)

EDIT: I think I figured out specifically how the locked room mystery (William and Alex's deaths) happened without the aid of an accomplice. William left the bathroom, went out, and found Alex and took Alex to William's room. Then William killed Alex, took the Alex room key, opened Alex's room, went back, dropped the key near Alex, locked his room from the outside, went into Alex's room, locked the door from the inside, and faked his death.

EDIT 2: But what if it was not William, but Xerxes or Fracie (thus William would be innocent)?
Blackberry wrote:It's possible Xerzes or Fracie also killed both of them [William and Alex], then took the time to go to one's room, swap the keys and then take it back to the other room and hid in William's room... but that would take time to go back and forth after killing them and there was likely not enough time to do this.

Is it that unlikely? My story above is just as dubious.
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Post Post #45  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:47 am

EDIT: Wait, I forgot about Tech and Orange. Cancel this theory until I get that fixed.
EDIT 2: Fixed.
Theory 04Ryax and Xerxes are the culprits.
First six murders: At 6 AM, Ryax woke up, opened the dining room, and killed three of the first six. Xerxes assisted and killed the other two and faked his own death.
I presume that they were able to do it because everyone fell asleep in their chairs after chatting so long. Ryax also gave himself and Xerxes each a knife, and locked the kitchen by grabbing the keys out of the servants' room. He had little time, so he left the keys on the table, as Fen noticed.

Next, Xerxes hid out somewhere in the basement. Sarah and Flaming went into the basement and locked the door using the basement key, taking said key with them. Xerxes killed the two, and hid in the non-boiler room. (Conveniently, the surviving people forgot to search the room called "Basement".)

William and Alex: Xerxes killed those two, and switched the keys around and hid in William's room.

Orange was simply killed because Xerxes got in and Orange forgot to lock his own room. (The narration never says Orange locks his own room.) Xerxes managed to grab Orange's gun and shoot Orange, and then hide in a different room.

Xerxes hid in the bathroom, and when Tech entered, they fought and ultimately Xerxes won, stabbing Tech four times. (Ryax could have lied about the gun, or Tech missed just like his wife did later on.) Xerxes hid in the bathroom again
, and conveniently, the group forgot to search for people hiding in there.

Fen and Luka were killed in the same manner as I said in the last theory: Xerxes used his knife to kill Luka. Fen shot Xerxes, but he survived, took Luka's gun, and fatally shot Fen. He then hid in the study, a lucky (or unlucky, depending on your POV) guess...

Jezz was murdered to make it look like a suicide. Xerxes had been hiding in the study, and sometime after Jezz ran in, he killed her. I guess the "heavy iron door" may muffle the sound of the gunshot. I doubt it is relevant whether Xerxes still hid in the room (Ryax, a culprit, "confirmed" the lack of a hider) or escaped (the window was apparently wide open).


(If Xerxes ends up being town, Fracie could in theory do all of the same things, although I am not sure if we are supposed to assume the fight-kills were done by a man or not.)
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Post Post #46  (ISO)  » Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:23 pm

Ryax confirmed the death of Xerxes and Fracie along with Fen. Assuming Fen is innocent, she would have called out Ryax's lie since she'd also know if Xerxes was alive or not.

And about Tech's locked room: The narration mentions that the bathroom is rather cramped, so I would say it is safe to assume the bathroom is too small for a person to hide from another in the room.

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Post Post #47  (ISO)  » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:55 am

Wait, so are you saying that Ryax was truthful that Fen actually participated?
OK, I know this theory is a bit silly, but I actually think it may give more information than a conventional theory.
Theory 05Segaco is messing with us. This situation is inconsistent.

I believe I have a logical reason for it. I want to know (from the mod or a fellow detective like @Blackberry or Haschel Cedricson) if this logic has any gaps.
  1. The narration says that Alex, Orange, and Luka died, so they cannot be culprits. Therefore, Alex truthfully confirmed the deaths of Sarah, Flaming, Thorus, and Watson.
  2. A culprit cannot fake the death of an innocent. So unless innocents can fake their own or each others' deaths (not stated as valid in post one), anyone who is believed dead is either actually dead or a culprit.
  3. At the end, there are three people definitely alive. Therefore there are at most 3 culprits, or else the 4+ would kill off the last three.
  4. The final three are not all culprits, or else they would have instantly killed Jezz instead of having the conversation about Luka/Fen's deaths. (Or if Jezz is another culprit, then Luka would have been insta-killed.)
  5. At least two of the last three are innocent, or else there would be 1 innocent against 2+ culprits at the very end, and the conversation about Jezz could not happen.
  6. Ryax and Zeus both claim Yarn innocent. So if either one is innocent, then Yarn is also innocent. Yarn is confirmed innocent.
  7. Yarn confirmed Jezz dead, who confirmed Tech and Fen dead, and Tech confirmed Nate and Takumi dead. None of these could have been culprits.
  8. Xerxes and Fracie are innocent, because if Ryax was lying about their deaths, then Fen would have called him out in it.
  9. The only people not confirmed town are Ryax, Zeus, and William.
  10. Ryax is guilty. Otherwise, Zeus would be the only culprit, as town-Ryax confirmed William dead. However, Zeus could not have killed Jezz (among others), at least not without being seen.
  11. So Ryax and William are the culprits, and Zeus is innocent (or else they would have killed Yarn).
  12. However, there is a problem with Tech's death.
    • The bathroom has no window, and Luka confirmed that the bathroom key was inside.
    • Since no one could hide in there after the death, William fought with Tech (Yarn confirmed Ryax's absence)...
    • ...but there is no way to escape the bathroom while still having the door locked and the key inside.
    • This contradicts the fact that (1) the door was locked and (2) William was not in the bathroom when the group opened the door.

(Unless Tech survived long enough to lock the door AFTER the fight...?)

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Post Post #48  (ISO)  » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:52 am

I think (assuming that there is a legit solution to this) either 8, 11, or 12c is wrong, or there is an extra possibility that I missed. The main problems I am having is with the deaths of Tech and Alex and the supposed death of William. Everything else I can see how it would work.
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Post Post #49  (ISO)  » Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:07 pm

The moment you assume there is no solution, then you won't be able to solve the mystery.
However, do know the point of locked room mysteries is to make you think that it is impossible for them to have occurred.


Let me give you a hand for the bathroom locked room. All you have to do is think of what you already know.
With the story itself, we know that the door was locked and that the only key to the room was inside with Tech.

In other words, you can say that the only way to lock the door from the outside was inside the room, which could not be accessed because it was locked.
Since it is obviously impossible to go through a door and get the key to lock the door from the outside, we are left with few answers:

A) The key being put after the room was broken into
A - Though, this would not be possible because Luka, who is clear, said the key was there when the door was opened.

B) There is a gap under the door and the culprit kicked the key in after locking it
B - But would the culprit really go out their way after being wounded & their victim having screamed (meaning people would come running soon) to look for the key in Tech's person and do this?

C) A servant locked it with their master key.
C - Last time I checked, all servants had alibis or were dead. Ruled out.

D) The door was locked from the inside, as there is no way to lock it from the outside.

And... we are left with option D. The only way to lock the door is from the inside, and since we know there was no one hiding in the room, then there is only one possible answer to this mystery, an answer you found out yourself: The person inside locked the door.

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