Murder Riddle II (Solved!)

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Post Post #25  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:16 pm

If a statement is in purple, then its literal meaning is objectively true, UNLESS the character is a culprit, in which case it may or may not be false.

There are, however, some cases where a character says in purple that something "looks" a certain way (or similar). For the Nik was in here too. Looks like he was stabbed to death., the mod confirmed that Brian was claiming Nik dead.
Not sure on the others. (Personally, I would have styled it as follows: "Nik was in here too. Looks like he was stabbed to death.")

I think there were only 2 or 3 of them, though.
@mod: How should I parse Alder's Those documents are probably what the killers are after.:
A. Alder claims the documents exist, and the killers are after them,
B. Alder claims that [i]if]i\ the documents exist, then the killers are after them, or
C. Alder's claim is vague meaningless hogwash, or
D. something else?
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Post Post #26  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:17 pm

In post 24, inspiratieloos wrote:@SS you said that any statement in purple can be considered true. Does that mean it's objectively true or only that it is true as the character sees it?

If a character says something in purple, then either (a) that character is a culprit, or (b) that character honestly believes that statement to be true.
In any matter of observation, such as "this person is dead" or "I saw this", you can assume that the person will not be wrong if they honestly believe it.
In some cases, it's definitely not an observation, and I apologize for not making it clear :P If it's speculation, I probably shouldn't have put it in purple; but you shouldn't really draw any conclusions from it.
That said...
In post 25, 2 718281828459 wrote:If a statement is in purple, then its literal meaning is objectively true, UNLESS the character is a culprit, in which case it may or may not be false.

There are, however, some cases where a character says in purple that something "looks" a certain way (or similar). For the Nik was in here too. Looks like he was stabbed to death., the mod confirmed that Brian was claiming Nik dead.
Not sure on the others. (Personally, I would have styled it as follows: "Nik was in here too. Looks like he was stabbed to death.")

I think there were only 2 or 3 of them, though.
@mod: How should I parse Alder's Those documents are probably what the killers are after.:
A. Alder claims the documents exist, and the killers are after them,
B. Alder claims that if the documents exist, then the killers are after them, or
C. Alder's claim is vague meaningless hogwash, or
D. something else?

Yeah, your stylization is probably more accurate.

As for the documents, the narration confirms they exist. ("Tom and Tony went to Miles's office, where the documents were kept. Tom unlocked the door and waited outside while Tony searched inside.") A and B are then same, and they are the correct interpretation.

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Post Post #27  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:30 am

What about my theory ;-,

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Post Post #28  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:43 am

Oh, sorry :P

It sounds like you're suggesting that Catherine was killed by the third shot that was unaccounted for. But she was definitely alive after those shots were fired...

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Post Post #29  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:48 pm

Oops. Her talking after the gunshots completely slipped my mind.
Changes in bold:

Alder and Alpha are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and stole the documents. I don't know why they would want them, possibly hired by someone?

For the first murder, they claim to have been together. However, that is not the case, as Alder just lied to give Alpha an alibi. Alpha went over to Ferris' office while Catherine was in the bathroom and stabbed him to death. After this, he locked the door with his master card key and left. When he reached Alder, Alpha gave him his master card key for the next locked room.

For the second murders, when Alder stormed off he found Micah and Nik. He led them to the closet and stabbed them both, locking the door with the Alpha's master card key afterwards when he was out.

For the third murders, Alder left the conference room with Ruby at one point. Ruby's purple of "Alder called me over" implies Ruby was not with him when he called her, so Alder just got into the security room and stabbed Ren and Miles to death. After this, he took Ren's gun, deleted the security footage and called Ruby over to the crime scene.

As this happened, for the fourth murders, Alpha got out of the conference room and quite simply shot both Brian and Nettle with his own gun.
Alpha lied about no one having Ren's gun, because his partner in crime had it.

At this point, secretly while everyone else was distracted/doing something else, Alder gave the master key card back to Alpha, and Alpha swapped his gun with Alder's (because Alpha's gun has space for more bullets, while Ren's only has 6).

For the fifth murder, Alder had possibly set the sirens to play at one point, and he used this chance to say he had heard a gunshot to go over to check on Ruby. He entered the room she was in and shot her with the gun he had been given, then left.
The door was not locked, so Alpha just opened it.

For the sixth murders, Alder separated from the group, lying when he said he was going to the conference room. When he saw his soon to be victims (Menna & Steve), he shot them both. As for the three shots, there are two possibilities:
A) He shot one of them once and the other twice.
B) He missed one of the shots.

After this, he quickly went on and hid in the room closest to him: Catherine's.
While everyone searched for him, Catherine entered her office and found him. Alder did not spare her and quickly stabbed her to death.
Alpha eventually found him in the room with the corpse and lied about finding Alder in Ferris' office.


Finally, at the end while Tom and Tony were distracted, Alder gave Alpha's gun back to him. And so, Alpha went over to Tony's room. There, he locked the room from the inside, shot his own gun at the ceiling and hid it in the room.
After this, he laid down on the floor and faked death. When Alder arrived, he lied about him having been shot and about him being dead. The gun Tom and Tony checked was Ren's, which had not been used at any point, so no contradictions were made.

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Post Post #30  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:15 pm

I believe that theory is completely consistent. Nicely done. That means I need to hit you with some red text :P
It's possible to surreptitiously pass a key card, but not a gun. Alpha and Alder could not pass the gun back and forth without anyone noticing unless they were alone.

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Post Post #31  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:35 pm

How about this:

Alder and Alpha are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and stole the documents. I don't know why they would want them, possibly hired by someone?

For the first murder, they claim to have been together. However, that is not the case, as Alder just lied to give Alpha an alibi. What actually happened is that Alpha went over to Ferris' office while Catherine was in the bathroom and stabbed Ferris to death. After this, he locked the door with his master keycard and left. When he reached Alder, Alpha gave him his master keycard for the next murder.

For the second murders, after Alder stormed off, he found Micah and Nik in the hallway. He led them to the closet and stabbed them both, locking the door with Alpha's master keycard afterwards when he was out.

For the third murders, Alder left the conference room with Ruby at one point. Ruby's purple of "Alder called me over" implies Ruby was not with him when he called her, so Alder just got into the security room and stabbed Ren and Miles to death. After this, he took Ren's gun, deleted the security footage and called Ruby over to the crime scene.

As this happened, for the fourth murders, Alpha got out of the conference room and quite simply shot both Brian and Nettle with his own gun. That done, he quickly threw his gun into Ruby's office.
After searching the others, Alpha lied about no one having Ren's gun, because his partner in crime had it.

At this point, secretly while everyone else was distracted/doing something else, Alder gave the master keycard back to Alpha, and Alpha whispered to Alder where he could find his gun (because Alpha's gun has space for more bullets, while Ren's only has 6).

For the fifth murder, Alder had possibly set the sirens to play at one point, and he used this chance to say he had heard a gunshot to go over and check on Ruby. He entered the room she was in (her office), took the gun Alpha had left there, shot her, and then left. The gunshot was muffled by the sirens.
Ruby's office was not locked as Alder had said, so Alpha just opened it.

For the sixth murders, Alder separated from the group, lying when he said he was going to the conference room. When he saw his soon to be victims (Menna & Steve), he shot them both. As for the three shots, there are two possibilities:
A) He shot one of them once and the other twice.
B) He missed one of the shots.

After this, he quickly went on and hid in the room closest to him: Catherine's.
While everyone searched for him, Catherine entered her office and found him. Alder did not spare her and quickly stabbed her to death.
Alpha eventually found him in the room with the corpse, and Alder gave him the two guns: Ren's fully loaded gun and Alpha's own gun.
Alpha lied about finding Alder in Ferris' office.


Finally, at the end, Alpha went over to Tony's office. There, he locked the room from the inside, shot his own gun to the ceiling and hid it in the room.
After this, he laid down on the floor and feigned death. When Alder arrived, he lied about Alpha having been shot and about him being dead. The gun Tom and Tony checked was Ren's, which had not been used at any point, so no contradictions were made.

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Post Post #32  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:54 pm

The "nobody had noticed they were missing" applies only to after Alpha left, the sounds were heard, and everyone ran out of the conference rooms. Before then, anyone not stated as having left the room was in it the whole time.

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Post Post #33  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:44 pm

Um, I'm sorry but I can't see how that disproves the theory
More like, I'm not sure the part the red refutes. Mind pointing that out?

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Post Post #34  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:55 pm

In post 31, Segaco wrote:How about this:

For the third murders, Alder left the conference room with Ruby at one point. Ruby's purple of "Alder called me over" implies Ruby was not with him when he called her, so Alder just got into the security room and stabbed Ren and Miles to death. After this, he took Ren's gun, deleted the security footage and called Ruby over to the crime scene.

As this happened, for the fourth murders, Alpha got out of the conference room and quite simply shot both Brian and Nettle with his own gun. That done, he quickly threw his gun into Ruby's office.
After searching the others, Alpha lied about no one having Ren's gun, because his partner in crime had it.

Maybe just the way this is ordered. It implies that Ren and Miles died before Brian and Nettle did, but that wouldn't be possible with what I said.

Interpreted the other way, where Miles and Ren died sometime after Brian and Nettle did, you're right that I didn't disprove it.

In that case... I think you've earned a bigger revelation.

Alpha was truthful in saying his gun was identical to Ren's. (And there were no other guns on the floor.)

(Moderator note: In retrospect, it would have been better to sneak in a part where Ren said this. Didn't occur to me that the only evidence of it coming from Alpha himself made it unreliable :P )

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Post Post #35  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:22 pm

I find that 00FFFF, when used on like 5 paragraphs, is hard to read.
Anyway, I went and highlighted in yellow anything that the red text would refute.
I am using green to track the number of bullets in Alpha's gun.

Segaco wrote:Alder and Alpha are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and stole the documents. I don't know why they would want them, possibly hired by someone?

For the first murder, they claim to have been together. However, that is not the case, as Alder just lied to give Alpha an alibi. What actually happened is that Alpha went over to Ferris' office while Catherine was in the bathroom and stabbed Ferris to death. After this, he locked the door with his master keycard and left. When he reached Alder, Alpha gave him his master keycard for the next murder.
[6 bullets]
For the second murders, after Alder stormed off, he found Micah and Nik in the hallway. He led them to the closet and stabbed them both, locking the door with Alpha's master keycard afterwards when he was out.
[6 bullets]
For the third murders, Alder left the conference room with Ruby at one point. Ruby's purple of "Alder called me over" implies Ruby was not with him when he called her, so Alder just got into the security room and stabbed Ren and Miles to death. After this, he took Ren's gun, deleted the security footage and called Ruby over to the crime scene.
[6 bullets]
As this happened, for the fourth murders, Alpha got out of the conference room and quite simply shot both Brian and Nettle with his own gun. That done, he quickly threw his gun into Ruby's office.
After searching the others, Alpha lied about no one having Ren's gun, because his partner in crime had it.
[4 bullets]
At this point, secretly while everyone else was distracted/doing something else, Alder gave the master keycard back to Alpha, and Alpha whispered to Alder where he could find his gun (because Alpha's gun has space for more bullets, while Ren's only has 6).
[4 bullets]
For the fifth murder, Alder had possibly set the sirens to play at one point, and he used this chance to say he had heard a gunshot to go over and check on Ruby. He entered the room she was in (her office), took the gun Alpha had left there, shot her, and then left. The gunshot was muffled by the sirens.
Ruby's office was not locked as Alder had said, so Alpha just opened it.
[3 bullets]
For the sixth murders, Alder separated from the group, lying when he said he was going to the conference room. When he saw his soon to be victims (Menna & Steve), he shot them both. As for the three shots, there are two possibilities:
A) He shot one of them once and the other twice.
B) He missed one of the shots.
[0 bullets]
After this, he quickly went on and hid in the room closest to him: Catherine's.
While everyone searched for him, Catherine entered her office and found him. Alder did not spare her and quickly stabbed her to death.
Alpha eventually found him in the room with the corpse, and Alder gave him the two guns: Ren's fully loaded gun and Alpha's own gun.
Alpha lied about finding Alder in Ferris' office.

[0 bullets]
Finally, at the end, Alpha went over to Tony's office. There, he locked the room from the inside, shot his own gun to the ceiling and hid it in the room.
After this, he laid down on the floor and feigned death. When Alder arrived, he lied about Alpha having been shot and about him being dead. The gun Tom and Tony checked was Ren's, which had not been used at any point, so no contradictions were made.


...does that red dispute Segaco's theory either??
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Post Post #36  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:27 pm

In post 35, 2 718281828459 wrote:
Segaco wrote:Finally, at the end, Alpha went over to Tony's office. There, he locked the room from the inside, shot his own gun to the ceiling and hid it in the room.

This isn't accounted for in your analysis.

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Post Post #37  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:54 pm

I'll change the last bit of my theory, the part where Alpha fakes his death.

Alder only gives Alpha Ren's gun when they met in Catherine's office. Alder keeps Alpha's gun.

Anyway, back to the end: Tom calling for the elevator caused it to snap and fall. The loud sound they heard was the elevator crashing to the ground.

Alternatively, do remember that the culprits could play sounds like the sirens, so it would be no problem for Alpha to play a gunshot sound and then feign death. Alder just lied about Alpha being shot and being dead when his body was found.

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Post Post #38  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:18 pm

This is probably a good time to mention this, something which was touched on in the original with William faking his death (<- this spoils the solution to the first one if you care about this) but which I think it would do well to spell out explicitly. (And I did plan this from the beginning, but I wasn't going to say it until the topic was brought up.)

For the sake of this game, a loud sound is either a gunshot or a piece of furniture (such as a desk) falling over. Such a piece of furniture cannot be righted, and such a sound cannot be made otherwise. If anyone at any point saw a piece of furniture knocked over, I would have mentioned it. Assume that the characters can determine roughly but accurately where the sound came from.

That said, there's the easy response of "Alpha went to Miles's office next door and knocked over the desk", which I won't wait for you to suggest because it's so obvious. Instead, I believe it's time to tell you:

The sound heard after Tom tried the elevator was in fact a gunshot.

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Post Post #39  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:23 pm

I wonder if it is possible for someone to rig a contraption that will knock over furniture on demand. If I ever went out to kill a bunch of people like this, I might well just do that to make a loud sound without me being in the room, so I would have an alibi.

Look through the other 6 "gunshots". See which ones could have been actually falling furniture.
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Post Post #40  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:34 pm

Hmm... let's see. These are the following possibilities and why they're not possible:

Tom + Miles -> Only an executive can disable the elevator. Neither of these two are executives, so they cannot do it.
Tom + Micah -> according to Tony, only an executive would be able to disable the elevator, so although it's possible for them to have done the murders, it's impossible for them to disable the thing. If they had forced an executive to do it, they'd be an accomplice, and they're not allowed.
Tony + Brian -> Without a master keycard, the closet locked room is impossible. Neither of these two have them, so this one is not possible.
Tony + Nettle -> Without a master keycard, the closet locked room is impossible.
Tony + Steve -> Without a master keycard, the closet locked room is impossible.
Alder + Catherine -> Without a master keycard, the second murder is impossible.
Alder + Alpha -> Possible

So, Alder and Alpha are indeed the culprits. But we have the problem with the gunshots...
I'd like to consult something with the host: I was thinking that when Tom heard three loud sounds, Alder had actually shot two times with Alpha's gun, went to Ferris' office and knocked over some desk. ...But Tom especifically said in purple he heard three shots.
Which leaves me in the same place I started because:

We know two shots killed both Nettle and Brian because Tony confirmed it in purple.
We also know there was a gunshot at one point during the siren because Tony confirmed it in purple when he said Ruby died to a gunshot.
After that we find out Tom heard three shots, so they are confirmed to have happened too because he said it in purple.
And finally, we have the final loud sound which was confirmed to be a gunshot in red.

Which means all seven gunshots were confirmed one way or another. Since you cannot add ammo to a gun, the gun at the end was fully loaded, and the only guns that existed on the floor were Alpha's and Ren's, I'm either stupid and one of the possibilites above is still possible or a mistake was made somewhere.
Could you check your notes and confirm to me that everything's oki and I'm just stuck?

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Post Post #41  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:42 pm

Without giving too much away, I see where the problem is. There's something that I think you wrote off as impossible that actually isn't. I'm happy to answer questions about what, for the purposes of this puzzle, can and cannot be done by the characters.

On that note, it's not possible to remotely knock over furniture.

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Post Post #42  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:58 pm

Ah, wait. I guess it's possible to kick the keycard through a gap under the door for the closet locked room.

...I'll go think about this a bit more

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Post Post #43  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:21 am

Keep in mind that Steve and Catherine are confirmed town because if they were culprits, Alpha would have truthfully said that someone had already faked their death. Steve and Catherine died after Alpha made that claim.

So does that mean that the culprit team is not Alpha+Alder??
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Post Post #44  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:04 am

Theory time! Where are we? I think this is 0xA7. This is a very rough version of the theory that I hope to improve on later so I can win the game.

To me, it would seem like the president of a company would count as an executive and be able to disable the elevator. I think that is the "impossible" thing that is actually possible. Segaco even said that that pair could do the murders.
Theory 0xA7Tom and Miles are the culprits.
Inventory: Tom's card opens every door. Miles' opens his office and the conference room.

Ferris: Miles lied that he was in his office. At 10:27, he hid in Ferris' office and stabbed his first victim. Then he exited without being seen, possibly pretending that he had to go to the bathroom.

Brian+Nik: These are easy. Tom's story, of course, is mostly misdirection. He somehow convinced them to clean that closet, and then stabbed both and locked the door.

Ren, Nettle, and Ferris: So Miles stabbed Ren, took the gun, and faked his death. Then Miles shot the others from a distance. Meanwhile, Tom stole the documents and unlocked Ruby's door. Tom left his master key card in there for Miles to pick up.

Ruby: Miles hid in Ruby's office. Then he shot Ruby, grabbed the master key, and snuck out of there to the desk while the other still-alive people were distracted by Ruby's death. Miles disabled the elevators.

Steve and Menna: Miles shot twice. Tom lied that there was a third shot.

Catherine: Miles, being the ultra-stealthy person that he is, evaded being spotted again, killed Catherine, and locked the door.

Alpha: Miles needed a place to hide. So he hid in Tony's office, and (un)luckily, Alpha went there (perhaps searching the room) but Miles shot Alpha before Alpha could have even seen Miles. That room never even got searched.
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Post Post #45  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:20 am

I have an alternative for Catherine's death, and that is that Miles stabbed her outside her office. Catherine, before dying, went into her room and locked the door from the inside, thus explaining why Alder only saw Catherine go into the office and why the door was locked.

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Post Post #46  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:22 am

I see two flaws in 2 718's reasoning:
One, Tom used his key card to unlock Miles's office, and the narration states that he did in fact unlock the door. If he left his card in Ruby's room, he could not have done this.
And two, Tony and Alpha searched Miles's body for the documents, so Miles would need to pretend to be dead once again, and you didn't incorporate this into your theory.

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Post Post #47  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:48 am

Something that bothers me is the fact that Menna's body fell right in front of Ferris' door, where Alder was, yet Alder said he could see Catheine's shoes walk into her office. Pretty suspicious if you ask me, but let's go by number-kun's route.

So the president and vice president count as an executive too? Never thought of that
With that in mind, let's try again:

Tom and Miles are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and took the documents. No idea why killing everyone else was necessary if Miles himself owned said documents. After this, Tom gave Miles his master keycard.

For the first murder, Miles entered Ferris' office while Catherine was in the bathroom and stabbed him to death. When he was done, he left and locked the door with Tom's keycard.

For the second murders, while Nik and Micah were alone, he got them into the closet and killed them both. Tom took Micah's master keycard, and when the body was found he lied when he said the keycard was there and was going to destroy it. He kept the keycard for himself.

For the third and fourth series of murders, Miles used the excuse of going with Ren to the security room to check the tapes to get her all alone. When they got there, he killed her and stole her gun.
After this, he left the room, went south, then west, and in the south-west corner he shot Brian and Nettle from the distance. Alpha was spared because he was not in Miles' sight. Knowing people would arrive soon, he went back to the security room the same way he came, deleted the tapes, hid Micah's card key and Ren's gun somewhere in the room and faked his death.
Tom lied when he said Miles was dead.

For the fifth murders, Alpha and Tony entered the security room and confirmed neither Miles nor Ren had the documents. When the loud sirens happened they left the room, giving Miles enough time to leave, go to Ruby's office and shoot her. Once the deed was done, he left, locked the door with Tom's master keycard and went to disable the elevator as everyone else gathered in Ruby's office. After this, he hid somewhere.

For the sixth murders, Miles just left his hiding spot, shot Steve and Menna when he saw them and walked away... until he found Catherine in the hallway. He stabbed her several times, and since she was close to her office she went in there and locked the door from the inside before dying.
Tom lied when he said he heard three shots. Only two happened.

As fast as he could, Miles went over to Tony's office and hid there. When Alpha entered, possibly suspecting Tony had hidden the documents in there, he locked the door from the inside. Seeing he had no choice, Miles shot Alpha from his hiding spot, using his last bullet.

Tony apparently knows what's going on at the end and locks the door from the inside so the culprit/s cannot escape.

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Post Post #48  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:57 pm

Tony and Alpha didn't leave the security room until Alder called.

By the way, as a mod, I'm interested in your opinions. From the way the bit at the end of the OP (which I copied from Segaco) is written, it implies that the players will come up with perfectly logical and consistent theories and the mod will give them extra information until they have enough information to deduce the correct answer. This game is requiring significantly more of that than the first did, and I want to know if you guys think it's annoying that you keep coming up with theories that make perfect sense but are not the answer I intended.

If you do think it's annoying, I could try to provide a whole bunch of clarifications at once that would probably make the right answer immediately deducible-- but that would probably make it way easier.

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Post Post #49  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:12 pm

I like those mysteries that show all clues needed to solve it from the start. I tried doing that with the other game but failed miserably by putting up the outdated version which left some things open, which is why I accepted the first theory that got around all the narration and purples. But that's just my preference, I can go with anything
You can do whatever you want with your mystery, in the other site I'm in not showing all info from the get-go is a common thing so the mysteries are not solved right away
So you're fine :thumbsup:

Miles had prepared a fake corpse before-hand. He put it where he was supposed to be, dressed it as himself and everything else went on as I described in the other theory.

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