Murder Riddle II (Solved!)

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Post Post #50  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:37 pm

In post 49, Segaco wrote:I like those mysteries that show all clues needed to solve it from the start. I tried doing that with the other game but failed miserably by putting up the outdated version which left some things open, which is why I accepted the first theory that got around all the narration and purples. But that's just my preference, I can go with anything
You can do whatever you want with your mystery, in the other site I'm in not showing all info from the get-go is a common thing so the mysteries are not solved right away
So you're fine :thumbsup:

Miles had prepared a fake corpse before-hand. He put it where he was supposed to be, dressed it as himself and everything else went on as I described in the other theory.

It wasn't exactly intentional; I had intended some things to be clarified only upon being asked, but others just slipped by me-- you outsmarted me :P

I do wish that there was more that I could point to and say, "This is what you missed", rather than having to tell you something that you didn't previously know, but I think that it would have to be insanely complicated for that to really work-- you guys are just too good otherwise. I think the format has a lot of potential though, especially if we play multiple of these and lay down some common rules for what is and isn't usually possible.

For instance... No fake corpses :P That was definitely the real Miles they found, both times.

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Post Post #51  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:05 pm

In the first one, we pretty much had the culprits nailed down instantly, because
Spoiler: of this
Yarn was confirmed innocent by both Zeus and Ryax, and her being innocent plus 3 confirmed innocents from the narration caused a chain reaction that cleared basically everyone except Ryax, William, Xerxes, and Fracie. That was very easy to work with.

Instead, we were left here with 8 possible suspects, and those seemed like the most talkative 8 in the game. (Unlike how Jezz, Tech, Yarn, Zeus, and Fen purpled a lot of useful information.)

Maybe you could obfuscate the clarifications a bit so that it would take some work to figure out the Final Answer.

Motive: Miles got greedy and wanted to do something evil with the documents (I cannot say what because I have no idea what the documents even are...) and realized that the rest of the company would probably object and maybe overthrow him, so he bribed an accomplice and killed everyone so he could end "thousands of lives".

(Is there a way that Tom could have gotten a hold of the gun so Ruby could be shot?)
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Post Post #52  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 20, 2018 7:39 pm

Not sure
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Post Post #53  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:55 pm

Going out on a limb here... (this is almost certainly going to fail)

Tom and Miles are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and took the documents away for their Grand Evil Scheme. They realized that they needed to kill everyone so that there would not be an uprising. After this, Tom gave Miles his master keycard.

For the first murder, Miles entered Ferris' office while Catherine was in the bathroom and stabbed him to death. When he was done, he left and locked the door with Tom's keycard.

For the second murders, while Nik and Micah were alone, he got them into the closet and killed them both. Tom took Micah's master keycard, and when the body was found he lied when he said the keycard was there and was going to destroy it. He kept the keycard for himself.

For the third and fourth series of murders, Miles used the excuse of going with Ren to the security room to check the tapes to get her all alone. When they got there, he killed her and stole her gun.
After this, he left the room, went south, then west, and in the south-west corner he shot Brian and Nettle from the distance. Alpha was spared because he was not in Miles' sight. Knowing people would arrive soon, he went back to the security room the same way he came, tossed the gun near or just inside his office, deleted the tapes, hid Micah's card key somewhere in the room and faked his death.
Tom lied when he said Miles was dead. When Tony searched for The Documents, Tom grabbed the gun. (Tom probably misdirected Tony to search the desk first, and grabbed the gun when Tony was turned the other way.)

For the fifth murders, Tom used his gun to shoot Ruby while Catherine was distracted. Meanwhile, Miles disabled the elevator as everyone else gathered in Ruby's office. After this, he hid somewhere.

For the sixth murders, Miles just left his hiding spot, shot Steve and Menna when he saw them and walked away... until he found Catherine in the hallway. He stabbed her several times, and since she was close to her office she went in there and locked the door from the inside before dying.
Tom lied when he said he heard three shots. Only two happened.

As fast as he could, Miles went over to Tony's office and hid there. When Alpha entered, possibly suspecting Tony had hidden the documents in there, he locked the door from the inside. Seeing he had no choice, Miles shot Alpha from his hiding spot, using his last bullet.

Tony apparently knows what's going on at the end and locks the door from the inside so the culprit/s cannot escape.
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Post Post #54  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:22 pm

Catherine was with Tom at the time during the sirens when Alder reportedly heard a shot. If she had not been, she would have said so.

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Post Post #55  (ISO)  » Fri Aug 24, 2018 7:05 pm

Tony and Brian are the culprits.

Before anything, the two got into Miles' room and stole the documents and hid them in Tony's office.

Now, for the murders... On the first death, Tony just killed Ferris while he was in his office before leaving. During the 5 minutes Catherine was gone, Tony went back to the room, locked the door from the inside and hid in the room.
When the body was found, he left his hiding spot and made it look like he had just arrived.

For the second murders, Brian lied when he said he went to the bathroom. In reality, he went over to the hallway near the janitor closets, got both Nik and Micah inside and killed them. After stealing Micah's key, exiting the closet and closing the door, he locked the door with the master key and kicked the key back into the room through the gap under the door.

For the third murders, while Brian was out of the conference rooms, he possibly knocked out Nettle and went to the security room. There, he killed both Miles and Ren, deleted the security footage, stole Ren's gun and ran back to where Nettle was. After this, he went to Nik's office, knocked over some furniture, left, and then shot Nettle from the distance before dropping to the floor to fake his death.
Tony lied when he said Brian was dead, and also lied that he had died because of a gunshot wound. The two loud sounds that were heard were the furniture being knocked over and the gunshot.
Tony also disabled the elevators while he was "searching" for the two bodies. Either Tony lied when he said only an executive could disable to elevators, or being the vice-president also counts as being an executive.

For the fourth murder, Brian got up and walked a bit before finding Ruby in the hallway. He forced her into the room and shot her. That done, he took her keycard, left the room, locked the door and ran away.

For the fifth murders, as Brian left his hiding spot, he found Menna and Steve in the hallway. He shot them both, missing once or shooting one of them twice. After this he, of course, left to his hiding spot... or at least he tried to. He was found out by Catherine in the hallway as everyone searched for Alder, so he just stabbed her. Catherine, about to die, ran to her office and locked the door from the inside before dying.

And then, finally, Brian went to his hiding spot: Tony's office. He hid there, and that's when Alpha entered and locked the door. Thinking Alpha knew he was hiding in there, Brian shot him from his hiding place, killing him.
At the end Tony locks the door so him and Brian can take care of the two left.
Last edited by Segaco on Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post Post #56  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 4:19 pm

I would like to know how you went from it being either Tom+Miles or Alpha+Alder to it being Tony+Brian.
In fact, I was just about to declare Tony confirmed innocent and look at what became confirmed fact.

You mean that Tony lied when he said Brian was dead, no?

OK, so I see the "impossible" act -- stealing Micah's key and using it to unlock all the doors. Nice. I think you have a winner. Which means I have to get my puzzle up and running quickly.
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Post Post #57  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:14 pm

In post 56, 2 718281828459 wrote:I would like to know how you went from it being either Tom+Miles or Alpha+Alder to it being Tony+Brian.
In fact, I was just about to declare Tony confirmed innocent and look at what became confirmed fact.

You mean that Tony lied when he said Brian was dead, no?

OK, so I see the "impossible" act -- stealing Micah's key and using it to unlock all the doors. Nice. I think you have a winner. Which means I have to get my puzzle up and running quickly.

Honestly I'm just trying all of the possible culprit combinations and see what sticks.
As for the lie thing, yep, I meant Brian. Fixed.
Now lettuce wait for SS to disprove/acknowledge the theory

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Post Post #58  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:24 pm

Theory is solid enough to require some red text, methinks.

Nobody ever hid in Tony's office.

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Post Post #59  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 5:47 pm

Then Brian hid in some other random room, but let's say it was Miles' because it was left unlocked. Brian saw Alpha walk past Miles' and go to Tony's office, so Brian left and shot him through the door, and did not miss because he used the window on the bottom part of the door to see where Alpha was standing.

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Post Post #60  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:01 pm

If the window of the door were broken, that's not a detail I would have left out :P

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Post Post #61  (ISO)  » Sat Aug 25, 2018 6:14 pm

Tony had given the key to his office to Brian at one point, possibly before the murders or while everyone was gathered in Ferris' office. So all Brian did was unlock Tony's office, open the door slightly, shoot Alpha and run away.
Tony lied when he said the door was locked, and the key he took out of his pocket at the end was Miles's card key, which he took for himself and lied when he said he destroyed it.

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Post Post #62  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:32 am

I know I'm jumping around. But I'm pointing out one thing at a time :P

Tony couldn't have hid in Ferris's office and pretended to have just arrived there without anyone noticing.

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Post Post #63  (ISO)  » Sun Aug 26, 2018 12:58 am

I don't mind,
When Tony attacked Ferris in his office he did not die instantly. After Tony had left, Ferris went and locked the door from the inside before dying. So same as Catherine's death.
Alternatively, Tony killed Ferris, took his key card, left and locked the door from the outside. When he arrived to the scene, he put the key card somewhere in the room/on the body, and that's when Alder took it.

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Post Post #64  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:43 pm

The thing I hate most about this is waiting.
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Post Post #65  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:01 pm

Sorry. Am busier now than when I started this.

I could probably give a better justification if I weren't on mobile, but for now I'll just say that neither of the theories in post 63 are possible

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Post Post #66  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 6:51 pm

No worries, but please say in red what is actually wrong with the theories when you can :'v
Oh, and another thing. I want to request a red, just so I don't waste time going with that theory:
Something_Smart wrote:Tony couldn't have hid in Ferris's office and pretended to have just arrived there without anyone noticing.

Could you rephrase this with "no one could have hid in Ferris' office and pretended to have just arrived there without anyone noticing"? Or is that a no-no?

Either way, here's another: Tony killed Ferris and left his office, being seen by Catherine when he left.
In the 5 minutes Catherine was in the bathroom, no one entered Ferris' office.
As everyone discussed their alibis after finding the bodies, Brian lied when he said the door was locked and Ren unlocked it. Nettle was just being guided by Brian, so he wouldn't know if the door was locked like Brian said, and Ren, the person who Brian claims unlocked the door, was not there when Brian said this, which meant he could easily get away with lying about that.

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Post Post #67  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:22 pm

In post 66, Segaco wrote:Could you rephrase this with "no one could have hid in Ferris' office and pretended to have just arrived there without anyone noticing"? Or is that a no-no?

Yeah, that's equivalent to saying nobody can. Unless stated nobody has any capabilities or skills that other characters don't have.

I'd allow what happened with Tech and say that someone wounded can lock themselves in a room before dying, but it's not possible to be fatally wounded, go to a room, open the door, go inside, and close and lock the door.

In other words, what you have Catherine doing before she died is impossible.

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Post Post #68  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:55 pm

In post 55, Segaco wrote:Tony and Brian are the culprits.
For the fifth murders, as Brian left his hiding spot, he found Menna and Steve in the hallway. He shot them both, missing once or shooting one of them twice. After this he, of course, left to his hiding spot... or at least he tried to. He was found out by Catherine in the hallway as everyone searched for Alder, so he just stabbed her. Catherine, about to die, ran to her office and locked the door from the inside before dying.

He was found out by Catherine in the hallway as everyone searched for Alder, so he just stabbed her and dragged her body into her office. She locked the door after regaining consciousness for a few seconds and then she died.

I am pretty sure something here is impossible but given the large number of patches made to 55's theory, I am kind of getting lost.
It may soon be time for Segaco to add them all into the big theory. That, or I could do that.
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Post Post #69  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:27 pm

The thing with that is Alder only saw Catherine go into her office, so anyone going in along with her is impossible

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Post Post #70  (ISO)  » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:29 pm

I would allow a modified version of that where he pushed her into her office and then stabbed her, but either way, Alder would have seen his feet.

(Ninja'd by Segaco but I'll still say it just to confirm.)

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Post Post #71  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:04 pm

Not really sure if this would apply, but it doesn't hurt to try: Brian hid in Catherine's office and shot both Steve and Menna while still being inside the room, but shooting by opening the door slightly and shooting from there, which is why Alder didn't notice him.
Alternatively, Alder wasn't paying attention to the door until Menna's body fell in front of Ferris' door, giving Brian enough time to slip into Catherine's office right after shooting her unnoticed, as Alder was focused on the body.
Catherine later entered her office and was killed by Brian, who locked the door from the inside and hid in the room.
Tony lied when he said there was no one hiding in the office.

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Post Post #72  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 29, 2018 9:59 pm

The alternative is close enough to count, and with that... you have solved it!

Now time to finish the story...

Tony clicked the lock of the door firmly shut, a sly smile on his face. They would have nowhere to run when his accomplice got there. But when he turned around, the smile vanished as he found himself staring down the barrel of the same gun he had held in his hands not a minute ago.

Holding the gun... was Alder.


Tony: "Whoa, what are you doing?"
Alder: "Just checking something."
Tony: "I didn't kill anyone! Put that thing down!"
Alder: "Of course, in a moment. If you didn't do anything, you should have no trouble answering a question for me."
Tony: "Sure, anything!"
Alder: "Show me your keycard."

Tony froze.

Tony: "M- my keycard? Uhh... why do you ask?"
Tom: "Alder, where are you going with this? I'm getting nervous."
Alder: "Bear with me for a moment. I think I know what happened. Now, Tony, the keycard?"
Tony: I... um..."
Alder: "Now, come on, you had it just now when you unlocked the door! Where is it?"
Tony: "Well.. right here. But..."

Tony hesitantly produced a card, which Alder instantly snatched from his hand and inspected. After looking at it for a moment, he crushed it with his fist and let it drop to the floor.

Then he fired two shots right into Tony's skull. Tony's body dropped lifelessly to the ground.


Tom: "Alder! What the hell are you doing?"

Alder did not answer, instead gesturing to the crushed remains of the keycard. As Tom picked up the shards, his eyes widened with realization. The card belonged not to Tony... but to Ruby.

Alder: "You bastard. You killed my friend. You killed nearly everyone. Why would you do this?"
Tom: "Wait, but he didn't kill most of them, he was with us the whole-- oh!"

The two of them turned together to look at the door, which had just been opened by none other than Brian. Seeing Tony's body on the floor and Alder holding the gun, he began to run, but Alder was too fast for him. Two more shots and he too was dead.

Alder: "And, just as I expected... the documents. Maybe we should... hang onto these. For safekeeping."
Tom: "Like I said, I still don't want to be involved."
Alder: "You're a good man, Tom. I'm sorry I ever doubted you."

With that, Alder slipped the documents in his jacket pocket and walked away to greet the police who were finally beginning to rush onto the floor.

Alder: "Oh, do I have a story to tell you guys."

Spoiler: The Full Solution
Tony, fed up with all the awful things that Miles was doing-- and making him do-- had decided to take action to bring down the department once and for all. He quickly found an accomplice in Brian, the secretary who was constantly being bossed around and made to answer for all of Miles's shady business.

At 9:30, Tony met with Ferris. Sometime during this meeting, he used a concealed knife to kill Ferris. He left the room, leaving the door unlocked. When Brian reached the door with Nettle, he pretended the door was locked and called for Ruby. I didn't even think of this at the time I made the puzzle, but Segaco was right. Ren wasn't there to here Brian say the door was locked and so she never corrected him.

While Ruby, Alder, and Nettle were talking, Brian went along the east hallway towards the bathroom. Seeing Nik there, he told Nik to come with him. When he neared the janitor's closet, he saw Micah and then killed Nik and Micah with a concealed knife and put them in the closet, which Micah had just opened. He then took Nik and Micah's key cards, locked the door, slid Micah's card under the door, and ran down the west hallway towards the front desk. Since Ruby, Alder, and Nettle were so deep in discussion, they did not notice any of this.

When Brian and Nettle went to search Ferris's office, Brian killed Nettle with his knife. Brian then went, via the south hallway, to the security room, which was left open. He stabbed Ren and Miles from behind, then took Ren's gun. Then, Brian went to his desk and used his computer to disable the elevator. Tony, of course, lied when he said that only executives could do it. Brian planted Nettle's body outside of Ferris's office, then shot once and knocked over Nik's desk (using Nik's card to enter his office) to create the second loud sound and faked his own death outside of it. Nobody ever checked inside Nik's office, or they would have noticed the desk and gotten suspicious.

This, incidentally, is the solution to the seven-shot problem. (Though clearly not the only plausible one, as there were many theories here I did not anticipate :P )

When everyone arrived at the scene, Tony lied about three things: Brian being dead, Nettle dying to a gunshot, and Miles's key card being destroyed. When Tony went to search for the documents, he lied about them being gone and instead left them there.

Brian found Ruby alone and shot her, then quickly took her key card and locked her in her room, then hid in the men's bathroom. As Menna and Steve went to search for Alder, Brian came out of the bathroom and shot Steve. Menna ran down the hallway, and Brian fired twice at her, missing the first time but hitting her the second time. Menna's body fell right in front of Ferris's door where Alder was hiding, which is why he did not see Brian enter Catherine's office. (Since this part was definitely ambiguous I'll call the final theory close enough to count.) There was a brief period of time between Menna's death and when her body was moved where Alder saw nothing simply because she was blocking his view. During this time, Brian entered Catherine's unlocked office and hid there.

When Catherine entered later, Brian stabbed her, locked the door, and continued to hide. He left Ruby's key card somewhere in Catherine's office. Obviously, Tony lied about there not being anyone hiding there. Tony also picked up Ruby's key card and left Miles's and his own key cards in there for Brian to use.

When Alpha went off alone, he believed that the killer's gun was empty, having apparently heard six shots. When the three of them left the hallway outside of Catherine's office to go to the elevator room, Brian took Tony's key card to Tony's office and entered it, shooting and killing Alpha, who was in the midst of finding incriminating evidence in Tony's office. Alpha had his back to the door, which he had locked. He had not expected the killer to have more ammunition or to be able to get into the room, so he was caught off guard.

Then Brian left, leaving the door unlocked, and headed to Miles's office, which he unlocked with Miles's card, to take the documents. When Tony arrived, he lied about the door being locked, then pulled out Ruby's key card and pretended to unlock it. He locked the door at the end to stall for time until Brian could arrive with the documents and finish the others off.

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Post Post #73  (ISO)  » Wed Aug 29, 2018 10:04 pm

Full retrospective will come later but feedback is certainly appreciated. I definitely think I did some things well and some things not as well.

I did enjoy being the moderator as I had to decide what information to give you guys that would force you to come up with a different theory but that wouldn't give too much away... but I can see how you might not have appreciated constantly having correct theories and constantly having them disproven. If any of you are inspired to run another one, I would totally take part in it. I still very much enjoy the concept.

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Post Post #74  (ISO)  » Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:15 am

The "one correct solution and only adding reds when necessary" is true to the source material of Umineko, incidentally. (In that it was actually suggested the GM could change the "correct" solution on the fly as long as they didn't contradict themselves with the red to force the players to keep guessing)
Fickle, cold and harsh or caring and warm
Strongly opinionated or barely invested, but a constant
You know the wind will always come back.

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