Murder Liar Puzzle

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Post Post #0  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:23 am

Note: I just decided to steal names from the Murder Riddles by Segaco and Something_Smart (and move them around), but this is not like those at all -- this puzzle is pure logic. Therefore it is likely to be solved in one guess and somewhat quickly.
This also follows the long-standing tradition that Purple Declaration is always true unless said by a culprit (and in this case, also a bribed witness).

Anyway, what we have here is a murder. It does not matter who was murdered or how. It only matters whodunnit.
There are five main suspects and eight witnesses. However, some of the witnesses have been bribed by the killers to lie in order to further confuse the situation.
A guilty suspect's Purple Declaration will ALWAYS be false, as will a bribed witness's.

Also, exactly two of the suspects are guilty.

Suspects:
  • Orange Duckling
  • Paul Turner
  • Quinn Hazard
  • Ruby Holland
  • Sarah McCall
Witnesses:
  • Alder Hutch
  • Brian Tooley
  • Catherine Luda
  • Dave Jones
  • Edward Sands
  • Fran Werner
  • George Werner
  • Henry Werner
StatementsSuspects

Orange: "I know that Ruby and Sarah are both definitely innocent. I guess that means it was Paul and Quinn."
Paul: "I can detect a lie from a mile away. Orange is lying."
Quinn: "Four witnesses were bribed. I can say how I got this number if you want, but I'm sure of it."
Ruby: "Brian definitely got bribed. I saw it myself."
Sarah: "Either Quinn or Ruby is lying, but I am not sure which. Maybe both are."

Witnesses

Alder: "I think I can contribute some information... Either Dave or Edward got bribed, perhaps both."
Brian: "I remember this much... Either Ruby or Sarah is innocent -- but not both of them."
Catherine: "I am not as good at lie-detecting as Paul claims, but at least one of those last two (Alder and Brian) lied."
Dave: "Well, I know that Alder is telling the truth. He never takes bribes."
Edward: "The culprit team is not Paul+Quinn."
Fran: "If Paul really is innocent, then the murder happened in the morning (6:00-11:59)."
George: "Well, I remember that the murder happened in the evening."
Henry: "At least two of the Werners have been bribed."


In order to solve the puzzle, you must provide as complete of a description as possible. That means which suspects are guilty and which witnesses are telling the truth, at least as much as that information can be logically determined.

Clarifications
When someone says "Either A or B", then it includes the possibility of both being true, unless they explicitly add "but not both".
When someone says "If A then B", and A turns out to be false, the statement is considered true regardless of what B is.
Last edited by 2 718281828459 on Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Post #1  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:58 am

In post 0, 2 718281828459 wrote:Catherine: "I am not as good at lie-detecting as Paul claims, but at least one of those last two lied."

Is this referring to the last two suspects (Ruby/Sarah), or the last two witnesses to have spoken (Alder/Brian)?

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Post Post #2  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:15 am

Spoiler: Solution?
Orange innocent
Paul guilty
Quinn guilty
Ruby innocent
Sarah innocent

Alder truthful
Brian bribed
Catherine truthful
Dave truthful
Edward bribed
Fran truthful
George truthful
Henry bribed

Assuming Catherine is referring to Alder/Brian. I don't believe anything contradicts this set of information? This felt too easy though, I just assumed Orange was innocent and went from there.

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Post Post #3  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 10:29 am

Spoiler: Silly alternate solution
Orange is guilty
Paul is innocent
Quinn innocent
Ruby guilty
Sarah innocent

Alder truthful
Brian truthful
Catherine bribed
Dave bribed
Edward truthful
Fran bribed
George bribed
Henry truthful

I suppose this is also technically possible, if you assume "Alder would never lie" is false but that he's not lying in this particular circumstance.

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Post Post #4  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:13 am

I need some clarifications regarding the statements of Dave and Fran, because their interpretation can be flexible.

For example if Dave is lying it means Alder lies sometimes, do we interpret that as he is lying if Dave is lying? Basically what I'm saying is if Alder is telling the truth Dave could be both lying and not lying with the information we have.

Similarly with Fran. The use of "if" means she can be right or wrong but not be lying. Say if Paul is one of the killers can we say that Fran is telling the truth?

Just having a little trouble because I have 4 alternate solutions. (2 different pair of killers with 2 alternate bribe distributions each) caused by the uncertainty in Dave and Fran.

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Post Post #5  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:28 pm

I clarified a few of the statements. Dave now simply asserts Alder is telling the truth.
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Post Post #6  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:29 pm

As for the solutions, I will get to those later. (I had my full solution written down, but need to find it.)
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Post Post #7  (ISO)  » Mon Sep 03, 2018 1:47 pm

Spoiler: solution
Paul and Quinn did it.
Orange, Ruby, Sarah innocent.

Alder is innocent.
Brian was bribed.
Catherine is innocent.
Dave is innocent.
Edward was bribed.
Fran is innocent.
George is innocent.
Henry was bribed.

I'll post the explanation some other time.

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Post Post #8  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:02 pm

Yep, that works.

I thought that by having 13 different statements that maybe I might be able to stave off correct answers for a while. I wanted something that would take time and evidently this was not that.
Perhaps instead I should try to either
(1) make a murder riddle like those of Secago and Something_Smart, or
(2) make a murder mystery where you ask questions that I respond with yes/no/irrelevant.

Wait a sec...
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Post Post #9  (ISO)  » Tue Sep 04, 2018 11:15 pm

Having two people directly refer to Paul+Quinn as a team made it the obvious starting point, and it all just... worked.
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Post Post #10  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 am

Also just from the murderer's statements alone there qere only two possible answers for whodunnit. The witnesses eventually fell into place.

Fran's statement still peeved me though. But I guess you don't want it to be too easy.

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Post Post #11  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:12 am

In post 10, BuJaber wrote:Also just from the murderer's statements alone there qere only two possible answers for whodunnit.

I count three: Paul/Quinn, Orange/Ruby, and Orange/Sarah.

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Post Post #12  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:26 am

Orange sarah doesn't work because of Ruby/Brian's statements.

For Sarah's statement to be a lie Quinn and Ruby have to be telling the truth. So Brian has to be lying.

For Brian's statement to be incorrect Ruby/Sarah have to be both guilty or both innocent.

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Post Post #13  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:28 am

These riddles are fun. I didn't participate in the others because they seemed too long and I'm usually on the phone without an ability to take lots of notes.

I think one where there's some Q&A would be very fun.

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Post Post #14  (ISO)  » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:21 am

In post 12, BuJaber wrote:Orange sarah doesn't work because of Ruby/Brian's statements.

For Sarah's statement to be a lie Quinn and Ruby have to be telling the truth. So Brian has to be lying.

For Brian's statement to be incorrect Ruby/Sarah have to be both guilty or both innocent.

Oh, I thought we were just considering the suspects. The second statement involves a witness.


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