Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Cheetory6]

If someone is scummy enough to get voted for a Bane, do you really think scum is going to waste a nightkill on them?

Bane: CDB

[Cheetory6]

Going to assume I'm understanding the mechanics correctly for now. Not really sure the aspects of the choice are too worth talking about.

Choice: Two

[Cheetory6]

Tammy. I'm going to assume you're fishing for townreads if you keep making posts giving the impression that you haven't read the rules. If you're town, go read the rules. Kthnx.

@Titus, how will scum know if we've baned Alquin unless they claim? We don't necessarily have to have anyone claim roles during minor day and we don't necessarily have to lynch the person we bane on MajD1.

[Cheetory6]

Marquis is acting very fake.
I think he might be intentionally changing his playstyle.
/s

@Titus, should we not lynch in case if we vote for a power role?

[Cheetory6]

/s

Someday /s will be universal for sarcasm.

[Cheetory6]

Everything above the /s was sarcasm. Marquis was obviously kidding around in his first post of the game. I'm not really taking anything from it. I just like joking around earlygame to try and give myself motivation to want to post.

CDB's opener was awkward though and I'm being serious with my vote to want to bane the shiet out of him atm.

[Cheetory6]

The idea is matching signs via massclaim is a bad idea because scum will slaughter us.

There's a difference between massclaiming signs and having a single player who we think is scummy being able to be targetted by PRs.

[Cheetory6]

Talk me through that then.
Am I dumb and missed some hidden meaning in what he was saying? Because I still don't see it.

[Cheetory6]

I'm not really sure how to talk about my thoughts on using Bane/engaging other people on whether we should be using Bane without it leading into a negative direction like Titus's last post kind of did.
DV's last post is more or less how I also feel about actually assigning a Bane atm.
But I feel like something else worth considering is that we don't get a Boon if we don't use a Bane.
I also feel like being able to create wagons via Bane/Boon is also super useful and we lose out if we just say "nah" in all cases because of worrying about just the worst case scenario.

[Cheetory6]

Cheetory, can you please explain your current opinions on Tammy and Marquis?

Haven't really seen enough from Marquis's first four posts to form much of an opinion on him, but I don't think him 'shitposting' during earlygame D1 seems out of character for him based on my experience with him.

Was feeling a little wary of Tammy because it seemed like she could have been pretending to not understand things to fake a lack of understanding of the scum mechanics for townpoints, but her later posts have been better.

[Cheetory6]

@Titus,

But I feel like something else worth considering is that we don't get a Boon if we don't use a Bane.
I also feel like being able to create wagons via Bane/Boon is also super useful and we lose out if we just say "nah" in all cases because of worrying about just the worst case scenario.

Thoughts on these aspects to following through with banes?

[Cheetory6]

Playing in too many games and school is hectic.

[Cheetory6]

(and can confirm Ffery that Advance Wars is what Ceph was talking about in our PT)

I feel like Ceph is comparing my replacegame to my earlygame which is kind of unfair. q.q Although maybe there's more to it than that? Unless he really wants Deas to engage me on that, I'm not really sure I want to get too caught up on a self-centered meta discussion.

Empire is townreading Cheetory and ActionDan by way of actually posting.

Eh? Are you saying he's townreading us because we're actually making posts? Or am I just misunderstanding?

@Tammy

, why the hostility towards Zar? o.o I feel like that came out of no where.

even if you've had at least one with me, you would know that I'm always tempted to shitpost as either alignment

Dood. Is what I said. Read my post again.

P-Edit: Holy post storm batman.

[Cheetory6]

Oops My bad I missed the "don't" in "don't think"

Why did you edit the parts with exclamation points out of my post? That wasn't very nice

I will do this from now on to spite you.

[Cheetory6]

(Empire thinks reading your angry posts is funny).

Nevermind. Just saw this. Tammy being angry feels less weird now.

[Cheetory6]

@Titus

, I don't think we can hammer the Choice. I'm pretty sure it gets hammered when we hammer the Bane unless I'm just crazy.

Tammy: Your start reminds me of Fantasy Camp

Can you talk about this some more? What parallels are you seeing here?

I'm up to Bane Titus, don't see anyone who deserves it more than her right now.

What's your beef with Titus? Can you talk about specifics?

@Bulba

, can I get your thoughts on CDB/Titus/Tammy?

[Cheetory6]

@UT

, got any reads thus far? I only kind of vaguely know you from the distance, but I want to say from my very brief impression of you that it's kind of weird that you haven't voted to bane for someone or at least taken a stance on whether you like the idea of using the bane today or not. Is your earlygame typically this safe?

[Cheetory6]

Yay, a thing I feel mildly qualified to comment on! I found UT's earlier posting to be too in-character with the monster I've created in my head for my liking! In other words, his angry angry response to whoever it was took me by surprise because it was unnervingly similar to what I'd expect from UT in the middle of a game rather than right from the beginning, if you get what I mean!

So you get the impression that he might be trying to force his tone? I kind of get the impression that UT and AD might have some kind of history, so I'm wondering if that might be playing into it.
Beyond that, do you find it off at all that UT more or less sidelined taking any kind of serious stance beyond just a Choice vote? I have this vague impression in my head of UT being a snarky but pushy player and for him to just be a dick at people without actually trying to sort anything playerwise kind of pings me.

P-Edit: Zar feels a little scummy out of this interaction with you, but I don't really feel like we need to rush a bane through based on an angry 1v1. I personally would rather hear your thoughts on Zar after tonight's over and hear if you still feel the same way.

@Zar

, is there any reason you're kind of avoiding an engage with Tammy on this? I feel like you're choosing to focus on other things and that just kind of feels weird to me.

[Cheetory6]

I'm not sure about Zar, but he seems more tentative than I recall him in our previous game.

Was he scum or town in your last game?

I mean, basically I've been playing telephone boy in my time for this game today.

This is kind of my main concern with the way this argument is going. I don't want this to turn into Tammy vs Empire. I'd rather try and focus on reading interactions between two players who are actually both in this game -.-
@Zar, can you possibly talk to me about why you decided to make a big thought-out post to respond to Tammy instead of responding to her in real-time?

[Cheetory6]

@Titus, is mastin posting somewhere else?
If not I don't understand why you think she's lurking?
Why give her grief and not Espeonage?

he was town. I wouldn't be contrasting his play in a negative light otherwise.

Just making sure.

[Cheetory6]

Cmon. Don't play so coy with me. Ask me something.
If you actually care about sorting me then throw me something more than a lame dismissive smiley.

Eddie is yelling at me to help Tammy with Zar, so...

How're you reading Zar?

[Cheetory6]

It looks like you don't know what way to come down on your buddy.

I feel like there's no way that I can respond to this without being awkward. Thanks. :c

[Cheetory6]

Okay, going to try to put this game down for the night after this q.q.
@Bulba, right now I'm standing on the outside of a heated argument between two players that I've never played with before. I don't understand most of the references that either of them are making. I don't really fully get where a lot of Tammy's points are coming from or Zar's points in response. I think it would be a lot stranger for me to have any kind of strong feeling on either of them, especially since I usually find it pretty hard to sort emotional interactions.

That aside, I don't really understand why you're expecting me to have a strong read on someone who seems like he's partially playing telephone with his teammate's thoughts and opinions? Most of the reasons people are finding scummy about Zar are related to his teammate's thoughts on the game, which I think could be somewhat lost in translation.
Yes, I find Zar's indirect and slow manner of responding to things here a little scummy and prepared, but I feel like waiting to hear a calmer Tammy's thoughts on the matter is reasonable and she's not exactly a super strong townread for me, so I'm also looking to firm that read up as well through reading non-angry thoughts from her.

[Cheetory6]

Bane: UT

Gonna talk about Bulba with teammates and try to flesh out that read.
Zar's last post makes me feel better about him. I can imagine that kind of mindset from how he was interacting with Tammy.
I don't mind CDB's last few posts, but I feel like he's focusing on a lot of theorycrafting which is hard to get a feeling from.

@CDB

, can I get your thoughts on Zar's play on top of the thoughts you already gave wrt Tammy's push for him?

[Cheetory6]

Look, I get that you're lost right now, but can you please not let yourself form judgements around who appeals to your emotional side.

Where exactly am I appealing to DV's emotional side in any of my interactions with him? :/

[Cheetory6]

how's being an IC treating you?

I just found it very fishy

Vote for UT.

[Cheetory6]

Why in the world would you suspect someone you've acknowledged as an IC?

[Cheetory6]

Is Nacho thinking his assholishness is town-ish also applying to him calling your play fishy?
Because I don't really understand how that explains that. :/

[Cheetory6]

I sincerely doubt that TSO, Gamma, or Cheat are scum. I just can't see scum making that choice.

Say more words about this. Why?

[Cheetory6]

@CDB, meh. Fair.
I'm just excited at a nice juicy scumread c:

[Cheetory6]

@Titus, CDB is saying that we should discuss thoughts on UT in PT rather than here for now so we don't feed him thoughts for his response.
I think it's pretty reasonable.

[Cheetory6]

Commenting on ffery being conftown was one of the few actually game-related things you did before your posting today..? How does something like that slip your mind?

[Cheetory6]

more kills seems good in this game. ending it sooner and narrowing down the player pool quickly is advantageous in a game that is heavy in the confusion factor

So you think scum all stacked on either no vote or Choice 1?
I could see someone being like "I'm leaning town on everyone who voted this", but calling all of us townreads like that just feels.. simple.

because

a. this game is fucking bananas
b. I have a lot of stuff going on in my life
c. it's literally not that important to me, sorry

you can be a dumbass and try to turn that into some kind of scumtell, but unimportant things slip your mind when you're an adult with a job and stuff

And I asked to get a better picture of where you're apparently at.
Right now I'm skeptical, but there are at least other reasons that make me feel like you're pretty likely to be scum.

Granted the last post you made & forgetting about ffery kinda feels like you might just be not trying at all. q.q
P-Edit: Can someone possibly bolster whether Titus is right about UT meta here?

[Cheetory6]

It just feels like shallow analysis.
Like, why would you come in and attack someone's readlist for having weak reasoning and then spout off reads that are impersonal to the players making the votes for each Choice? Like, I personally just didn't have a strong opinion on which option was better and thus kept my vote on the one that I thought I liked at the start of the game. Does that really sound like your reasoning for townreading me is applicable anymore?

[Cheetory6]

Package from Tiershift

:
Ffery, Tier's telling me that he wants to work off of your reads to get a feel for this game. He wanted me to ask you why you're reading vezok as scum? Like if you can elaborate on it and stuff.
Tier's also saying that GiF's play isn't striking him as all that different from his play in the Tarot Upick that you modded and he was hoping you could talk at/with him about your townread on him.
He's also not really feeling scumUT from what he's seen. Which makes me sad. :c

Catching up now.

[Cheetory6]

I'm getting scummy vibes from tammy. It might be jsut her excitement, but something is weird.

I know this is from a while back, but vezok, can you talk about why you were getting scummy vibes from tammy and whether you still are?
Can you also possibly elaborate a little more on why you're townreading Empire?

[Cheetory6]

@UT

, Why aren't you baning someone? Who are you scumreading?

@Bulba

, what do you make of Empire/Empire's wall thus far? Do you take anything from his replace in?

[Cheetory6]

Bane: Gamma

Incentive.
Play the game and stop talking about yourself/mechanics. You're not giving anywhere near enough townie vibes to get away with playing like this.
We get it, you don't have much time. You should be spending what time you have reading/talking about other people instead of defending yourself.

[Cheetory6]

Fek. I'm eating my words here. 90% of Gamma's posts are pretty damn coasty, but he made a mid-catchup post with content in 614. I'm expecting a better content-post before end of minorDay though.

Bane: Bulba

Tier's saying he has a decent amount of experience with scumBulba and he's been telling me that townBulba will typically try to figure out people before become really stubborn and pushing for them, and he thinks the lack of Bulba trying to figure things out is uncharacteristic. He really really wants me to push this. o.o
On my side, I've been getting pings from Bulba's play that have struck me as kind of off. Mostly just the certainty with how he was reading me as scum, but the willingness to switch off to Zar without elaborating at all on his read on me until I asked him about it. It just kind of irks me that he was posturing like he understood what Ceph's case was on me and when he was prodded to explain why he was scumreading me it was really vague and nondescript, which makes the certainty of it feel unusual. I'm not super confident on this read, but deadline's coming up and the alternative that I like is UT and it feels like there's no momentum there.

This from Cheetory came from earlier than my last post but I read it again when Bulbazak linked to it, and I find it weird. Given that nobody is in a position to vote as we know it, this reads as more likely to be scum posturing than it does town genuinely believing that they've found scum. Town has to be more specific in this game.

i) You have time to ignore my questions but you have time to take a potshot like this? Kay.
ii) Are you really getting on my case for the usage of the word 'vote'? Do you really think I meant anything other than vote to bane him?
iii) So you think I'm scum posturing to try and get UT lynched despite my back-and-forth with him where I tried to figure out what he was doing?

[Cheetory6]

UT why you no vote.
Why you ignore me.
Why.
y.

[Cheetory6]

Yes.

[Cheetory6]

Wait fuck I'm an idiot you're voting Empire.

[Cheetory6]

I'm just going to sit in the corner and think about what I've done for a minute.

[Cheetory6]

Can you talk with me about your Empire read while I cry into a bowl of ice cream?
q.q

[Cheetory6]

i) You have time to ignore my questions but you have time to take a potshot like this? Kay.

Oh god I'm losing my mind. I thought I'd asked CDB questions that he ignored but I didn't q.q.

If your policy was to call for Baning first and ask questions later

At the time I thought UT had slipped and I wanted pressure on him to either force him to slip up more clearly or to clarify on what he meant.
Bleh. I think I was more prickly than I should have been because I thought you'd ignored things I was asking you.
I need to go get food and eat because clearly my head is just not screwed on right today.

[Cheetory6]

Catch-up will have to be tonight.
Not enough time right now q.q

[Cheetory6]

Making dinner and homework, but I wanted to say my three favourite picks for booning right now are TSO, Titus and Deas.

Boon: Deas

for now.
Vezok doesn't look bad either but I have literally 0 experience with him.
Would be willing to sheep townreads there if we need a hammer and that's the only thing that's gonna take off.

[Cheetory6]

Because I've seen some of your play before in a game that we've both been in together/you post more content/are more open than he is/my townread on you is stronger?

[Cheetory6]

@DV nah. We've never directly interacted in a game.

[Cheetory6]

Like. It's not your fault you don't remember me.

[Cheetory6]

why are you booning a guy who said he did not want the boon.

Don't remember him saying that/I've been skimming last little while because school is awful. Just picked person that felt like best choice.
If Deas doesn't actually want it then

Boon: TSO

for now.

[Cheetory6]

He's not up for discussing things. In fact, his MO so far has been to shut discussion down.

Would you say the manner in which you approached engaging me earlier this cycle isn't similar to what you're scumreading Marquis for here? Why or why not?
Also, talk with me about why you like the idea of booning TSO.
Also also, talk with me about why you don't like vezok.
Also also also, would you be voting to lynch Marquis right now if it was major D1? If not, who would you be voting for?
I want to understand the mind of the Bulba and I feel like I'm getting only a vague image of where you're coming from at this point. You came at me really hard early cycle and then you just kind of dropped pressure on me and I'm somewhat wondering if you dropped it because you knew the way you'd approached it was making you look bad. I'm trying not to be self-centered though so answers to these questions would be helpful for working towards me separating OMGUSy feels and genuine read feels tia

@Titus

, I feel like you're being weirdly antagonistic towards TSO? Why is it bad for him to have an opinion as to who should be booned?

The vagueness on UT is a problem. It looks like general doubtcasting of Tammy's choices.

Why does it look like doubtcasting to you? How exactly is he being vague when he says he's been constantly scumreading him?

@UT

, I think I'm liking you better than I was before? Your posting has been coming across as a little fluffy though and it's making me less confident in being okay with moving you to being a nullread right now. Can you talk about your read on Tammy right now? I did a quick f-search through your ISO and I didn't really see much mention of her so I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that vote.

[Cheetory6]

Also, Bulba, can I get some updated thoughts on Empire from you?

[Cheetory6]

I've said this before but talking to Regfan again about it, we dislike the stance CES has apparently taken regarding bane'ing vezok due to him being hard to read from earlier today as that's not something we see town-CES believing (Regfan insists that even though vezok can be lurky, he's very transparent)

Is this something that CES should be really aware of? Like, does he have enough experience with vezok on both sides of the alignment fence such that saying this would be ridiculous coming from his POV as town?

The stance that CDB's entire team apparently thinks bane'ing me is a really bad idea in #754 vs. the later scumread on my slot in #761 still makes absolutely no sense to either me or Regfan.

I was going to argue that maybe CDB would think bane-ing your slot would be a bad idea because making a potential town powerhouse slot vulnerable this early on would be a bad call, but this totally goes against that grain:

I'd be pretty happy lynching Empire at the earliest opportunity, though that means I definitely don't want us to Bane him.

Oh wow Empire caught something great here. For people who haven't looked at this yet, in 754, CDB says this:

Also, the Black Goo are agreed that Baning Empire is a bad idea and that you should all stop

. I like all of the other currently voted-for options better.

Empire responds with this:

Uh, have you spoken to your team about me (

#754 implies that you have

)? Because I find it very hard to believe that a guy who (probably still) believes I have no scum game suspects me in this game.

And then CDB says this:

I hadn't brought up your slot at all to my team-mates prior to that post.

CES told me to address you on that point, so I did. He actually hasn't had much of a stance on your alignment yet, but he's less leery of your swap with Zar than I am. (Like Fenchurch, he's not had a comprehensive read of the game.)

@CDB

, you should address this because this looks reallllllllllly nasty to me.

[Cheetory6]

Actually more I think about it/look at it, less it looks like an inconsistency.
:c
I still feel like you should address any potential discrepancy there though.

[Cheetory6]

I might still be mad/OMGUSy at CDB slot and seeing something null as scummy because of that really dumb "YOU USED THE WORD VOTE DURING A MINOR DAY, TOWN WOULDN'T DO THAT"-comment -.-

[Cheetory6]

It's bad for him to antagonize everyone who doesn't want him boned

To be fair, if someone tried to prevent me from having sex all the time, I'd be mad too.

[Cheetory6]

Are you sure you're not getting on TSO for a general thing that he does vs something that he'd be more likely to do as scum wrt the whole doubtcasting thing?

[Cheetory6]

Hi Aronis!
Tell me about your thoughts and feelings on CDB and Bulba tia.

[Cheetory6]

Also, what happened to 100% town marquis vote?
Any reason you're switching?

[Cheetory6]

Do you think your constant push against the majority of TSO's actions this cycle could be interpreted as being a variant of the same thing you're saying he's scummy for?
If you're constantly calling everything he's doing scummy, are you not discrediting him in a way?

@GiF

, can I get your updated thoughts on Gamma please?

[Cheetory6]

@UT

:

Can you talk about your read on Tammy right now? I did a quick f-search through your ISO and I didn't really see much mention of her so I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that vote.

[Cheetory6]

Sorry, was unclear. Was asking Aronis in that post about Marquis!
Appreciate the answer though.

I can read, thanks

of TSO, vezok, and Tammy, I trust Tammy the most with the powah

I'm just being persistent. Not doubting your ability to read.
Are you intentionally avoiding discussing the content of your read on Tammy here? Because I could also interpret this as you saying "I trust Tammy's decision making the most of all three" vs "I am townreading Tammy the most here".

[Cheetory6]

Are you at all worried about giving the boon to scum who's snowing people?

[Cheetory6]

I'll be here for deadline.
If I'm not then you can beat me up in the face.

[Cheetory6]

Also @Titus, I'll address your answer eventually, but again, it's a question I intended to direct at someone else

Also also, you missed this if I'm not mistaken:

Do you think your constant push against the majority of TSO's actions this cycle could be interpreted as being a variant of the same thing you're saying he's scummy for?
If you're constantly calling everything he's doing scummy, are you not discrediting him in a way?

[Cheetory6]

@mastin

, can you give me your thoughts on Bulba right now?

[Cheetory6]

I didn't bring up Empire's slot before that post. CES popped up and said that Empire shouldn't be Baned and I agreed.

Why would you say the Black Goo instead of just saying CES?

[Cheetory6]

Heh. Okay.
Can you walk me through how and why your vezok read has adjusted through this cycle?

[Cheetory6]

Oh nifty. I actually had the exact same thought on the Marquis wagon analysis when I looked through vezok's ISO.
I wasn't aware that you and Empire didn't really know each other that well. Gonna try to motivate myself to read through your interactions again at some point with this in mind. I think I'm feeling closer to null with you after these interactions. I'd like to see where your head goes once we can start voting for lynches though.

[Cheetory6]

pretty sure this was just hito saying that you guessed correctly

Where do you stand on the TTH wagon atm? You're being boring again Gamma, why is that? :c

which is a trademark of scum you

Do you have experience with townAronis? What would you be expecting from him that you aren't seeing here?

Bulba and TTH are probably not scum together.

I know I just told him it's probably not important but I'm still not completely happy with this. If anyone's opportunistically jumping on UT forgetting that ffery is confirmed town, it's Cheetory.

For the same reason as before?

See Tammy, the thing is that mollie has played with scum you very recently, I have a rapport with mollie as of recent and I don't have a good rapport with the confirmed town.

Now with that out of the way.

Woah there sir. Why is ffery's read on Tammy out of the way just because you haven't played with her?

Espe, I think you're town

More words on this please. Why?

The scumreads on Tammy,

Sure.

GiF

Eh not sure if I agree..

and Bulba make no sense to me

Uh. Okay, so walk me through this townread on Bulba because I have Tier sitting on my one shoulder telling me that his play on D1 looked bad based on his experience with his scum-meta and a lot of his content lately has just been responding to things/posturing/not a lot of trying to build cases on people to try and build wagons. His Aronis vote is sitting there and there isn't a lot of convincing reasoning there. It looks like it's just there for show to me. His stance on TTH is also pretty contrary, which makes me feel like he's possibly scum trying to avoid jumping on board a large wagon so he can coast for now on the sidelines. Argue with me and convince me that I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong. TIA.

FTR, GiF is my second strongest townread because ika.

What do you mean?

I'm waiting for it to be resolved before bringing up distractions.

Why not support it to hopefully get things moving faster then? Are you waiting to give your take on it atm?

I want Marquis/DV to keep being active. UT/TSO should also start posting again.

VOTE: TTH

[Cheetory6]

First, I have no faith in Tier's ability to read me at all.

Looking forward to Tier's angry response to this

Second, you just got done saying that I'm probably not scum with TTH. However, you think I may be scum avoiding jumping on the TTH wagon. But then you immediately vote TTH. Why? If I'm scum, then TTH is likely town, and I'm avoiding a mislynch, which means you need to dismantle the wagon. However, if I'm town, then that means I have real objections to the TTH wagon. These are objections that I would think you would try to get to the bottom of if you're town. And if that's the case, then that means that you wouldn't want to rush a TTH vote. So again, why are you voting TTH, because from everything you've just said, that is the worst possible vote imaginable.

Do you think I'm trying to get TTH quicklynched right now?

If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns

So, how is he being opportunistic with his voting patterns?

[Cheetory6]

TTH hasn't said anything of note.
Vezok has a sketchy night result on her.
She probably isn't scum with you.
If the pressure is there, it'll hopefully pressure her to either start posting or replace out.
If she starts saying scummy things, the wagon can stay. If she starts acting town then yay the pressure of the wagon can move elsewhere.
Not really hard to follow.

[Cheetory6]

I feel stronger about you not being scum together than I do about you being scum trying to avoid a big wagon.
I also care more about interacting with Titus on this read on you because I haven't really gotten very much out of directly interacting with you. I still feel pretty damn confused about you after having interacted with you for a decent amount of last cycle, so I'm trying something different.

[Cheetory6]

I like that pressurevote by CDB. Let's keep him.

[Cheetory6]

I have a wiki full of meta that will prove you wrong.

Brb doing mafiahomework today.

[Cheetory6]

can you guys just wake me for day 5

:c

I had a brief moment of inspiration today in which I felt like I could take on the world and metadive Bulba while still keeping up with various things. But then headache and now that's just not happening.
I'm just gonna settle for nullscum read there and hopefully get enough motivation to try and do a back-&-forth with you sometime later this cycle @Titus, because the thought of a big logical argument just kind of makes me feel like slinking into my bed atm. q.q

[Cheetory6]

I'd like to have a lynch by middeadline so we aren't rushing the second one. We'll see on that.

I wouldn't mind using full deadline personally. We lose ffery after this cycle so we might as well get maximum ffery overdrive scumhunting pewpewpew while we have it.

What would really be useful for me to understand your read is a scum game that matches this meta and an explanation of why. :nod: No rush.

Will try to hunt for something that Tier had in mind tomorrow if I don't feel like death.

[Cheetory6]

Tier seems pretty busy atm. Don't want to bug him too much on this but I'm sure he can at least point me in the right direction.

@TTH

, can you walk through your read on Marquis in more detail?

[Cheetory6]

omfg. im dumb.
I didn't realize there are two lynches.
Okay yeah, midcycle lynch makes a lot of sense to me @Titus.

[Cheetory6]

Again, with this notion that everyone on this wagon is trying to quicklynch TTH.
It's baffling to me that you're acting like this is anything but a pressurewagon.

[Cheetory6]

So how many people on it do you think are scum hoping to get a quicklynch on TTH?
2? 3?
I could see vezok being town who wants a quicklynch there.
Other than that, you have at least four votes which are just there to get some pressure on TTH to respond to things and get into the game.
I think most of the wagon would have been on anyone's case if they hammered, so why are you acting like "oh man no one will look at it twice" when that's blatantly just not what would happen if a quicklynch were to go through.
And this is all assuming that TTH is town.
And and looking at how fast wagons grow is a shitty way of determining whether it's full of scum or not, especially in a game with this many people and so few scum. In all likelihood at least 60+% of the wagon was town. And that's being generous to your whole argument of 'the entire purpose of that wagon is scum trying to befuddle the game!'. It just feels like you're grossly oversimplifying the situation in an unrealistic way.

[Cheetory6]

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but like man it feels like you're trying really hard to discredit everything about the wagon and everyone who's on it for reasons that are wayyyyyyy too general to be realistic.

[Cheetory6]

Bleh. Bulba might be town.
I think I'm doing a dumbtunnel, which makes me feel like I'm getting caught up on gratey townthings rather than things that are scummy. q.q

[Cheetory6]

It is a conflict between sixteen Creation aligned players and four Annihilation aligned players

[Cheetory6]

@mastin, you think that scum was trying for a quicklynch here?
:/

[Cheetory6]

Also, mastin, can I get more on your read on marquis right now?

[Cheetory6]

Meh. Sure.
There's a lot of weird interactions in the Esp ISO wrt Empire. Gonna be lazy and sheep this for now because it seems decent and my reads are muddly now anyways so weeeeeeeeeeeeee.
VOTE: Espeonage

TTH should still start posting more and being more townish because stubbornness and I don't want to just sheep mastin [though I'm honestly kind of feeling tempted to]. q.q

[Cheetory6]

Singer what do you think of Espeonage?

[Cheetory6]

I'd like your updated thoughts on him once you're caught up. tia.

[Cheetory6]

2. I actually spent token(s) on making myself town because I want to win TM.
3. The only time I don't choose scum when given a choice is when I really want to win or need to do it to eradicate choice meta. Both of those need me to be town.

Are you better at town than scum? Can you talk more about the reasoning behind why you spent tokens on being town?

Why did you spend your first ten posts chiding Titus instead of scumhunting?

I keep telling myself to fight against doing anything more than nullreading his ridiculous "I should get baned posts" because I don't see any reason why scum wouldn't be aiming to try and tryhard an "I am way too ignorant to be scum" persona.

Also swapping itself is null in the same way replacing due to being swamped is null. If you are under fire and you swap, that seems pretty suspect as it is mechanically different to replacing.

It bugs me that you didn't say this again when people started using this logic against TTH.

I think Bulba might be town.

I've never been able to read him but just from a couple of posts and the things people are saying I'm going to go town.

So you can't read him, but you're throwing a townread at him because ???????

I don't actually think I can read Tammy except in cases where she is being very town in her own way which isn't happening here.

How did you start confidently scumreading her later this cycle then?

I'm getting more and more happy in my read that you're scum. Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh. Your tone here doesn't read to me like the frustrated got irl stuff tone as far as I can tell, which is about the only explanation I have for the amount of scumminess I am feeling from your posts. And even if that is the reasoning for your tone it still doesn't mean you're town, it takes it to null, at most. I don't have the most experience with you but I'm going off what I do have. And your responses to people here for the most part aren't looking town.

Can you pull specific examples of that you're finding scummy about her responses/tone?

I feel slightly marginally less convinced than I was before that Zar/Empire/singer vs Esp interactions could be scum/scum on reread, but there's enough in here that a vote on Esp is decent enough. Will make a case depending on answers.

[Cheetory6]

Gamma can you give me your thoughts on Espeonage atm?

[Cheetory6]

his tammy read seems like it's more likely than not coming from town

What specifically about it pings you that way? Just a gutfeel or is there something more logical to it?

[Cheetory6]

But I'm noticing some things that haven't come up in his play before and those make me lean town.

Can you talk about these? Or is it just gut?

[Cheetory6]

Just because of the timing of it and going against the grain of all of the townreads on Tammy sort of dealio? Or something more subtle than that?

[Cheetory6]

Why me? :/

[Cheetory6]

How is knowing my sign getting something good?

[Cheetory6]

:/

[Cheetory6]

I'll hate you so much if you're scum and playing obtuse like this on purpose. Lol.

[Cheetory6]

You're more or less right in that I'm only kind of scumreading Esp after this last exchange. I just don't really know who I'd want to vote for right now alternatively.
I have a bunch of slight scumreads, and if I felt particularly strongly about someone else I'd probably switch, but as of right now it'd just be kind of a vanity vote which I'm not really a huge fan of outside of RVS.

[Cheetory6]

Who should we be wagoning Titus?
Pitch me a case.

[Cheetory6]

I mean, I'm voting for Esp right now.
Are you convinced that his obtuseness is fake? Do you have experience with Espeon as either town or scum?

[Cheetory6]

Why not vote for Shadow then singer?

[Cheetory6]

Cue Titus getting angry at me for a leading question.
*no fucks given*

[Cheetory6]

I think CDB's reasoning for his vote made sense in the context of what he was asking TTH.

[Cheetory6]

@Cheetory, that's not a leading question.

Damn. I suck at words.
*goes back to programming where he belongs :c*

[Cheetory6]

Why not vote for Shadow then singer?

[Cheetory6]

If Titus is scum that's hilarious.

[Cheetory6]

How about we all just not be dicks for no reason.
Woo.

[Cheetory6]

Pages 36-37 seem to have a lot of GiF and CDB deferring to their team about reads, but then GiF said he's playing this game independently (implying little help from his team), and CDB is falling back on CES a lot and not forming his own stances. I'd like to see more of a catch-up from CDB than a few responses to recent posts before making my own judgement.

I'd still be willing to lynch Shadoweh or mastin, but I'm also willing to lynch CDB, Espeonage, TTH, or Aronis (in that order) for a general apathy and not really reading them as pro-town at this point.

I changed my mind. I don't want to lynch mastin.

Page 46.

What changed between these two posts wrt mastin and why are you scumreading CDB so heavily but GiF isn't even in your lynchpool if you see a similar issue with both of them?

[Cheetory6]

Mastin...had a town read, then didn't, now he does again, particularly the DV scum read!

Can you elaborate on what this means?
Also, are you still catching up at this point?

[Cheetory6]

Pitch me your Shadow vote.
Tell me why it's better than an Espeonage vote right now.

[Cheetory6]

My 'esp push'? I don't really see how I'm pushing for Esp right now.
I liked mastin's vote, asked espe questions, liked the responses to those questions and then haven't found something I feel is worth pushing more atm so I haven't voted someone else. If espe was in serious danger of being lynched right now, maybe I'd switch, but I don't see the point in unvoting and I'm not feeling particularly confident in my read on Bulba anymore, who I was focused on for a while. What exactly in there is an opportunistic esp push?

[Cheetory6]

Bleh. I've been trying to hold off on this because I don't want it to influence her catch-up, but I feel awkward sitting on my Esp vote and Gamma's already pushing there so whatever.
VOTE: singer

[Cheetory6]

I thought it was a pretty decent lead.
There were enough things that looked like they could be connections to the singerslot and I'm kind of townreading mastin/her reads were scarily accurate in DoA. Not that I want to put pressure on her to be right, I just kind of trust that her gut might be right in this case.

P-Edit: I wanted you to give answers to my questions/focus on catching up without overfocusing on defending yourself from someone voting for you. Doesn't really matter anymore.

[Cheetory6]

Speaking of which, look at how you're responding to my vote instead of my last question.
Point fuckin' proven eh?

[Cheetory6]

I didn't call you scum for missing my question.
You can be defensive over a naked vote that I haven't even elaborated on yet though if you'd like though.

[Cheetory6]

I was on Espe before there was a wagon there.
I also have established that Espe had a number of interactions with Empire that I found a little strange, thus I can easily see the both of you being scummates with each other.
I wanted your stance on someone who could be your scummate who I'm also somewhat still scumreading.
You bringing this up now though is especially convenient though, isn't it?

[Cheetory6]

You're voting for me so I can only assume you think I'm scum somehow. Crazy assumption!

Super cray cray. I'm going to not be rude to you back so please return the favour by not being rude to me

Point being, you've had to remind me to respond to you previously without a vote on me, so there wasn't exactly a point to prove with me overlooking that comment.

Point being that you saw a vote and you responded to the vote and now you're over-responding to everything I say because of the vote. Am I calling that in and of itself scummy? No. I'm just saying that inherently votes cause attention to focus there. That's all I was saying.

To assume that is to negate the shallowness of voting me immediately after Gamma and excusing it as "waiting til you're done catching up."

Look at my questions again and then tell me it doesn't look like I've been waiting to vote for you. I didn't want to vote you because Gamma did. I voted you because Gamma did and you not being under direct pressure of a wagon wasn't going to be a thing anymore anyways so why hesitate anymore?

Like. Oh, "let's wait til she's finished reading all 81 PAGES of this shit (wasting not only my time, but yours), and THEN lynch her!"

Or, wait to see if her updated stances and such are any better once she's caught up with the game and then vote her if I don't like the way her answers to be questions with no inherent direct pressuring via a vote have been. You can frame it otherwise if you'd like if you want to play up being a victim or something.

I'm bringing this up now because you literally just posted it in response to Gamma...how am I supposed to bring it up before he asked you about it?

You're right. I was honestly just being pissy because your response to me felt rude and didn't really think all that much about it.

[Cheetory6]

I'll write up thoughts on singer in general tonight.
Drinking/studying/not in the mood to deal with abrasive people atm.

[Cheetory6]

Can we please not make this game needlessly overdramatic? :/
I might be missing context here, but it seems overdramatic to replace out of the game for what little I've seen of Espe/Tammy interactions/what little I've understood of them.
Honestly Tammy, I'm not really scumreading you for this, but like.. you're playing like you're only reacting to people who're getting on your case. I think you should take a step back and look at the big picture again, because a solid number of your interactions have just been interactions based around people talking about you. Which isn't a big deal, but you post a lot. And when a lot of posts are just self-centered it doesn't really serve to forward the game state IMO because it's a lot harder for the rest of us to understand those interactions. I'm not really sure if I'm making sense here, but it's just how I've been feeling for a while.

I looked over singer ISO again this morning and there's a lot of small inconsistencies which on reread kind of looked more like a realistic and developing thought process? I kind of just feel like a scum-catchup would be less likely to have developing reads. The transitioning on UT and mastin kind of feel natural? I don't know. I think her abrasive tone kind of hit me the wrong way and now I'm unsure if I let that influence my read in a negative way. I do think some of her early posts were a little awkward and there's a lot of dissonance between her 'nice-posting' and 'abrasive-posting', but I kind of get the impression now that that might be playstyle? Eh. Not really sure why Tammy is saying singer is townish based on the reaction to TTH stuff? I wouldn't mind hearing an elaboration on that because this is a pretty muddled read for me atm.

And then this happens:

Singer's reacctions to votes are bad.

Espe is sitting on a Marquis vote while slinging shit at singer with only a few days left to deadline. Reads as setting up potentially voting for singer if the momentum gets close enough to create an actual wagon to jump on.
VOTE: Espeonage

[Cheetory6]

@TTH

, are you content with sitting on a Marquis vote right now? You could be trying to push it or asking him questions or making commentary on some of the other wagons, but you're not. Why not?

[Cheetory6]

It kind of sounds more like you think she's playing badly vs playing scummy when you phrase it like that.
You think flustered townTammy wouldn't be acting this way?

[Cheetory6]

The fact that you're not voting now reads as scum nervous that they might be seen as bandwagoning. More like you're testing the waters before committing. Why wouldn't you vote for singer at this point in time if your Marquis vote is literally doing nothing? You haven't even tried to push that at all, and haven't even mentioned him since voting for him ages ago. What is your vote there for?
T-Bone offered to read Marquis, what happened there?

I am against a TTH lynch because of reasons.

Truth be told I found myself unapproving of the tth wagon simply because you were on it which took me by surprise tbh

Are these linked?

[Cheetory6]

You should also give a read on CDB.

[Cheetory6]

Aren't we like 3 days until we wanted first lynch?
I thought we were treating it like a hard deadline?

[Cheetory6]

Oh my god I'm dumb there's still a week.
I'm sorry q.q

[Cheetory6]

Cheet, would you maintain the statement that my vote is currently being useless given that it is contributing to equal second largest wagon?

Given that neither you or TTH has pushed this vote in like 14 pages. Yes. I'd consider it as being useless up until now that I've pointed it out. -.-

[Cheetory6]

TSO is a person who exists in this game.
:/

[Cheetory6]

Ah he's VLA until the 20th.
That's a long time from now q.q

[Cheetory6]

So Gamma, let me get this straight.
You're getting on people's cases for voting Espe for what amounts to them feeling like what he's doing could be scummy.
Isn't that ridiculous given that your reason for townreading him is feeling like what he did was townie at one point?
Tell me what the difference is between an Espe push and an ActionDan push then and why you're not championing his cause as well.

Let me pitch why I think Espe is scum right now:
i) I'm expecting some tryhard bullshit from scum this game. Trying really hard to get towntelled for behavior seems like something that scum would do in Team Mafia, especially in this game. Do you agree or disagree?
ii) Espeonage has been sitting on an empty Marquis vote without pushing it or elaborating on it beyond just defending TTH's case there. It feels like empty play and there's no weight behind anything he's done there beyond just sheeping TTH. It reads super hard as active coasting to me.
iii) He slung mud at singersigner as the momentum started to build there without changing his vote which reads to me as setup for joining the wagon there without looking like bandwagoning later. "Look at how I talked about it earlier, I'm not just opportunistically changing votes now!"

I'm sure other people have good reasons too. I suggest looking before blindly defending him with "everyone is pushing him because of his VT claim".

I don't agree with UT that we should be rushing this cycle and the thought that he might be scum overplaying an "I don't give a shit" character isn't unfathomable to me. If you don't like a game this big or this slow, then maybe you should switch instead of just continually complaining about it?

Honestly had no idea it was that long ago. I still don't get how people can read the case and not go, that makes a tonne of sense, I'm going to take at the very least a good hard look at Marq.

Still a work in progress?

No, no townpoints for you. And the bluster doesn't get you any either.

There's two ways you can interpret vezok's results on me. You can either think I'm a town special that wants to use my role on DV or you can think I'm scum gathering intel for a kill / some other nefarious purpose. You have a distinct and very clearly stated "not town" read on DeasVail himself, so the former conclusion should come much more naturally to you. Yet, you don't unvote and you actually go so far as to subtly push me to claim more information. Both these are scum motivated and completely inconsistent with your read on DV.

You are scum, sir.

I don't mind this case. I do mind Espe sitting on it without pushing it though.
ISOing DV and Marquis in a little bit.

[Cheetory6]

I'm going to take at the very least a good hard look at Marq.

Fucking commas. I'm dumb. That isn't what you meant q.q

[Cheetory6]

@Gamma, let me think about it. I keep writing up thoughts to your points and they get hardcore muddled midway through so I think I need to just read for a bit and let things sit.

[Cheetory6]

How exactly is the town imploding? :/

[Cheetory6]

Exam tomorrow night.
Need to pass it.
Will probably start obsessing over this game again after it's over.

[Cheetory6]

I just finished a detailed Titus ISO. I now know everything there is to know about Titus in this game. I got kind of lazy in the last 75ish posts because oh my god 3 pages is too much for it being only D1 technically. I probably won't post all my notes because believe me when I say that they're extensive and I don't want to flood the thread.
For now though, some questions for you Titus! :
i) Why did you consider GiF suboptimal as a boon choice?

ii) Given that you were vehemently hardcore against baneing, but made it clear you were just kind of going with the flow on that to not cause problems, why were you okay with baneing a townread? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to be okay with baneing only if it was on a scumread of your's?

iii) In 507 you refer to something as a reaction test. Can you walk me through what you meant here?

iv) You called TSO a townread because he was being hotheaded early on in the game, but changed your mind here:

Don't make me reconsider my townread on you.

because of this:

If I had an insta-Vig, I'd shoot Untrod Tripod for a multitude of reasons.

How is this not TSO being hotheaded and why would this go against your reason for considering him town?

v) Why are you scumreading CDB?

vi) Why in the world does ika make GiF such a strong townread to you? Can you point to literally anything which makes you feel that way? Because this read just seems out there to me and I don't understand where you're coming from on it at all.

[Cheetory6]

Also, can I get your read on Shadoweh?

[Cheetory6]

Fuck sorry one more thing. Should have formatted notes and organized things before I posted questions q.q
What reads did Alchemist have that were similar to mastin's? Can I get some specifics on that?

[Cheetory6]

Just finished trip to Toronto, and settling in. Titus you missed a few of my questions, can you make sure you get to those as well?

[Cheetory6]

i) Why did you consider GiF suboptimal as a boon choice?

ii) Given that you were vehemently hardcore against baneing, but made it clear you were just kind of going with the flow on that to not cause problems, why were you okay with baneing a townread? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to be okay with baneing only if it was on a scumread of your's?

Also, can I get your read on Shadoweh?

What reads did Alchemist have that were similar to mastin's? Can I get some specifics on that?

[Cheetory6]

And this one?

ii) Given that you were vehemently hardcore against baneing, but made it clear you were just kind of going with the flow on that to not cause problems, why were you okay with baneing a townread? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to be okay with baneing only if it was on a scumread of your's?

[Cheetory6]

But you were like super worried about baneing in the context of it being used to eventually kill people if they're town.
Why wouldn't you fight to make sure the bane is on someone who you thought was scum if you were horrendously against the idea of baneing in principle?

[Cheetory6]

A lot of your posts regarding the matter seem to give the impression that you personally were okay with the idea of baneing Bulba.
Why give that impression if it was just you relenting to what your team thought was best?

[Cheetory6]

Don't really have one. Trying to sort through players one by one in ISO because I'm finding it too hard to sort through the game otherwise.
Trying to finish players with higher post counts first while I still feel pretty motivated atm.
Can look at her after I finish Tammy/you/Esp?

[Cheetory6]

Formatting notes on Tammy but mostly done with my ISO on her. I remember feeling slightly wary of Tammy because it felt like she was just deflecting every time was attacking her, but reading her train of thought in a linear and undistracted manner makes it reallllllllllly clear that almost everything she said or did was pretty logical/reasonable/townish.
Tammy/Oversoul is officially my strongest townread as of right now. If anyone wants to argue about that, I'd love to do my best to make you look silly.

@Oversoul

, can you talk about what you're not liking about UT right now? Like specific posts and stuff? That'd be great.

Onto Singer!

[Cheetory6]

Espeonage talk with me about your read on the Tammyslot.

[Cheetory6]

You realistically don't have a few days.
:/
Like, not even trying to be a smartass lol.

[Cheetory6]

Like, I understand your thoughts there are muddled, but I'd love for you to just run through what your thought process has been up until this point wrt Tammy.
I feel like you shouldn't need a few days to get that in order, no?

[Cheetory6]

Now, this is also something that I was wary of wrt Tammy when following her progression out of context as the game was progressing.
Having read her ISO from start to finish in a linear fashion, I totally get where she was coming from on her reaction to your scumread on her.
#192 looks like an overdefensive reaction to you at first glance, but having traced her thought process, it looks a lot more to me that she just doesn't believe that you're coming from a legitimate place with your scumread on her.

You had this reaction to her:

Hey Tammy, you know how you were during like the mid part of Unbalanced 2.

This is me telling you, you need to breathe.

Which I have to agree with Tammy, this looks a little weird for you to say to someone you think is scum.

even if I was townreading Tammy I still would be against Tammy getting Boon.

This is also just kind of a weird thing to say.
Her points on the fact that you continually chose to ignore ffery's read on her and instead cared more about mollie's read just kind of make sense to me and the fact that you never once acknowledged that fact makes her agitation make sense to me. Like, I get you saying "I don't have a rapport with ffery so that's why I didn't follow that logic" but for you to just ignore her point there entirely and continue on with your case just looks slimy. Her point is that ffery has more experience with her AND ffery is confirmed town. The AND is crucial there and it looks gross that you're ignoring that point in favour of sheeping mollie's read there when it wasn't explained.
I also see Tammy's point that 1409 looks overexplainy for someone who's into gutreads.
And before you go into defending yourself over this, I'm more trying to get across that I really understand how Tammy could perceive your push on her as being really sketchy.
Tammy's exit also makes tons of sense to me. You misinterpreted one of her posts and were being kind of dickish over it.

[Cheetory6]

You can defend yourself over the mollieVffery tammyRead if you'd like though. Because that does genuinely look pretty scummy to me.

[Cheetory6]

I skimmed a little bit at the very end of singer's ISO but I have a lot of notes on Zar/Empire/Singer.
Singer. I just want to say.
Your posts are HARD to follow :c [<3]

General summary: Earlygame Zar was a little scummy, but his exit felt pretty town to me. Empire read as town to me. Some things stand out as being sketch to me with singer, but I also see some things that look kind of town to me so I kind of feel like she's probably town and I don't really think I can get behind a lynch on her today.

Questions:
i) @regfan, are you still townreading DV as strongly as you were before?

ii)

Someone specifically asked me about TTH, so that's where my attention landed. You're more than welcome to point me in a different direction, but until then, don't act like I made up what to comment on out of no where.

Why did you defend you talking about TTH like this when you were voting for her? Why not just say that you were scumreading her if that was the case instead of just saying that someone pointed you in that direction?

iii)

Pages 36-37 seem to have a lot of GiF and CDB deferring to their team about reads, but then GiF said he's playing this game independently (implying little help from his team), and CDB is falling back on CES a lot and not forming his own stances. I'd like to see more of a catch-up from CDB than a few responses to recent posts before making my own judgement.

I'd still be willing to lynch Shadoweh or mastin, but I'm also willing to lynch CDB, Espeonage, TTH, or Aronis (in that order) for a general apathy and not really reading them as pro-town at this point.

Not too long before this you said you were reading Espeonage as genuine because of him claiming his action. What made you change your mind as of this quote?

iv) wrt TTH what about 1486 strikes you as so convincingly not coming from a townPOV?

v)

Meta's ever changing so if you're suggesting I've all of a sudden reverted back to the way I played scum four years ago without acknowledging that I've played scum (and town!) differently since then, it's a pretty scum motivated push to support a mislynch, yes.

I thought you said you'd only played one scumgame since like 2012 other than the newbie game. Am I crazy or?

[Cheetory6]

@Gamma

: what do you think of the game that ffery posted with singer's recent scum-meta? Can you comment on that please?

[Cheetory6]

Aronis made a wall on Espeonage?
Even more importantly, Aronis made a wall?
I don't see one in his ISO? o.o

[Cheetory6]

I'm almost 90% sure you mean ActionDan.

[Cheetory6]

Haha sure.
VOTE: ActionDan
I shall support you in your time of need!
I'll take a closer look at AD after I muster up the motivation to work on Espe/Shadow ISOs.
I also may end up pitching an Espe case to you in the very near future if I still like the current theory for the scumteam that I have in my head though.

[Cheetory6]

Ah whatever. I don't have the energy to take serious unbiased notes on Espeonage. I'm too tinted by other things and I feel like I just need to engage with what I have at this point because my notes are getting lazy and confbiased as fuck.
People should tell me what they think of Titus/Espeonage scumteam doing bullshit fighting stuff for distancing.

[Cheetory6]

Titus/Espeonage Interactions That Look Bad:

i)

Given how townsided most of the open setups can be, I bet practically no one preferred scum.

So, you don't know if this set-up is townsided yet, but you don't think people would have picked scum in fear of it being townsided?

@TSO, Use context please. The opens are townsided so I would be surprised if anyone picked scum in those games. It is too early to tell if this setup is townsided.

But how is this fully open? It's semi-open at best.

Read my posts in their entirety again.

So this conversation is important for setup for a discussion later so I want to talk about it so what I'm saying is clear. Titus is saying that people probably didn't put in scum tokens into the open setups. TSO gets on her case, possibly on incorrect reasoning but that's not particularly important. What is important is that TSO thinks that Titus is being misleading with how she's talking here.
Titus follows up with TSO here, basically saying that she doesn't understand why he thinks she's lying for no reason:

You think I lie for no reason???

And then Esp jumps on board and gets on Titus's case:

Ok well I don't get an easy bane vote then.

But you're lies about bulba stand.

I think the fact that he's saying that she's lying about Bulba's meta is wayyyyyyyy too strong for someone who's only just started reading the game. The level of confidence that she's lying vs asking her why she has a different perception of Bulba's meta strikes me as distancing rather than someone trying to sort someone. There's also the use of the word 'lying' seems like more of a sheep of TSO saying there's a discrepancy in Titus's posting. It's even worse because there's no vote and he later starts nakedly townreading her with almost no significant interactions in between:

Also Titus is probs town.

ii)

Let's see here, since you're being an ass to me. The claws come out here.

Quote this god gamn case if you want me to read it. There have been multiple references to cases and evidence that people want me to rely on. Getting all hostile when I ask is antitown as best.

It also puts me in the state where I want to lynch you regardless of your alignment and rip your case to shreads.

Calling paragraphs of case that I believe in and am copping flack for that I didn't even wright "evidence" is insulting. You got the claws out first honey.

TTH's case is basically that he couldn't follow Marquis's train of thought. We looked at Marquis following that. Marquis frankly obvtowned himself during that discussion. TTH's case was worth investigating at the time, but Marquis wasn't actually scum. You seemingly have ignoredeverything that goes against your point Espy and are relying on one player misunderstanding one read.

Yeah, this vote is not moving.

Nothing about this back and forth reads as genuine to me. The "I'm getting the claws out" comment from Titus especially strikes me as being fake.

iii) Espeonage's lame Titus vote looks lazy as hell and like he doesn't actually have anything behind it.

Other unrelated points that I'm finding scummy about Titus and Espeonage:

i) Titus's stance on baneing Bulba just looks fake. I have a super hard time believing that she genuinely was okay with the bane on Bulba, regardless of whether she wanted to prove everyone wrong. She defended this by saying her team told her not to defend Bulba. She made a ton of posts saying she personally was okay with the baneing so this also just looks super fake to me.
ii) Espeonage claiming his detect on me could really easily come from a scumPOV. To put it simply, Espeonage knows that he's sketchy and people are suspicious of him. If someone traces him to me and he's unclaimed, then he's in fucking hot water. If he derpclaims it then no pressure anymore. I really don't trust that town Espeonage would claim his detect unless he was worried about himself. That mindset just seems more likely to come from scum who understands the situation he's in.
iii) Titus constantly calling ika town and all of the codestuff feels like she's trying to stay on ika's good side. I think she's paranoid of him and is trying to buddy up to him to try and keep him off her case.
iv) Another weird change from Espeonage:

You self voting is a really bad sign though.

Current List of people ok with being Booned: Marquis

And this is all within sixteen posts of each other and Marquis didn't even post once in between :/
v) Titus started trying to discredit Tammy the moment that she left the game. Looked and felt slimy.
vi) Espeonage ignoring Tammy's reasoning for why he should be listening to ffery over mollie for a read on her looks and feels slimy.
vii) Titus's reasons for scumreading TSO were bullshit.

Sorry. I know this is a lot of words, but I want to talk about this connection I'm seeing and I'm getting a little flustered trying to read other things while this is painting my perspective on the game so much.

[Cheetory6]

I'm gonna go eat cheeseburger soup because oh my god my brain is too full of things atm q.q

[Cheetory6]

THANKS GUY WHO'S VOTING FOR ME!

No problem bb.

@mastin

, can you look at esp/titus interactions in my last post and tell me what you think?

Also, this cheeseburger soup is barely acceptable. Disappointed.

[Cheetory6]

Nah. You should talk about some more things. Like instead of nitpicking the one detail of my case that you like, you should tell me what you think of the idea of Titus and Esp being scummates.

[Cheetory6]

Do you think I care?
You've made one significant post about one person. I have no idea what you think about anyone right now other than Esp. I'm down to sheep ffery on this vote for pressure alone if it means for you to start playing the game and start taking more actual stances.
Pitch three people you think might be scum and name two people you're townreading and why.

[Cheetory6]

Lamesauce.

[Cheetory6]

I KNOW HOW YOU FEEL NOW AD. TO PUT ALL KINDS OF WORK INTO SOMETHING AND THEN HAVE NO ONE CARE AND SNEER AT YOU FOR IT.
I still don't really know if you're town though. I wish you'd work harder to rectify that instead of just giving the impression that you're posting the bare minimum to stay off the lynch table

[Cheetory6]

Plus I don't really feel like reading anymore tonight.
Seriously. I spent all of today and last night reading Titus/Singer/Zar/Empire/Tammy and a little bit of Esp.
I need to get wasted.

[Cheetory6]

Bleh.
bleh bleh bleh.
UNVOTE:
Can't condone a hammer on Action right now. I like the wagon being big though.

[Cheetory6]

VOTE: Espeonage
This is where my heart's at right now.
Maybe my heart will be behind an AD lynch when I'm caught up in that area of the world but no thanks tonight.

[Cheetory6]

I don't really think singer is scum though q.q

[Cheetory6]

I'm going to be self-centered and say that it's entirely my fault that mastin is being overconfident about her reads because I said I wanted to sheep her after DoA.
Shit.

[Cheetory6]

So why don't I what? Sheep mastin?

I don't really think singer is scum

[Cheetory6]

Fek that quote is supposed to be me.
Sorry.

[Cheetory6]

I shouldn't post things when I'm tired.

[Cheetory6]

Why is whining and bitching scummy?
I honestly am inclined to agree with her that fleshing out reads with ffery is good, but your hydra/mechanics talk with her felt unnecessary.
I can see her POV on the lack of cohesion in the game given that AD is the first wagon that's happened since TTH which died off almost instantly because everyone was super fucking scared of it growing too fast.
I don't see anything in her ISO as 'flailing' as you've termed it.
I don't get this case at all. I get why people find singer scummy. I don't get why people found Empire scummy beyond his interactions with Tammy occasionally being a little dumb at times. I just really don't get it. Because I read a lot of how Empire was playing as being townish.
I also think it would be ridiculous just how much their team has had a stake in this game like. Their team is so open about their reads and stances and they're consistent in a way that just doesn't make any sense to me as coming from scum.
This isn't like a hard townread for me, but like I don't think it's particularly likely that singer is going to flip scum.

[Cheetory6]

Like, I get why this is happening. I just really can't get behind it after following singer/empire/zar's ISO.

[Cheetory6]

Wow ur rite.
i guess that UT guy is scum 2 then.

[Cheetory6]

Man why the fuck were you so opposed to this wagon then?
Gah.
Gahhhhhh.
Gahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

p-edit: @ut

[Cheetory6]

Something that's also making me not like a singer lynch is the fact that their entire team has been pretty active with reading this game. If this is a townslot we're losing three-four players instead of just one. And I know some people are going to be like "lel but all teams have four people", but I think most teams have one other person keeping up with this game. I also just feel like they'd have to have been so coordinated as scum to continually keep up with all of the small tidbits they've been adding to the game teamwise.
Zzzzz.

[Cheetory6]

Basically this is kind of shitty because mastin can't articulate why singer is scum.
Titus gave halfbaked reasons and then didn't even try to defend them.
Gamma's reasons are okay but he admitted he was going to do homework from ffery.
Ffery is conftown and is saying this isn't a good lynch. Nacho is conftown and is saying this isn't a good lynch.
I don't know if anyone gives a shit about what I think, but I'd like to think I'm somewhat townish this game and I think singer's a bad lynch.
The best and most articulate reason I've seen for why singer might be scum is that she has been attacking people on a personal level in a snarky way, but I see that shit all the time from town so I really just don't agree that it makes her particularly scummy, just abrasive. Just because it's a part of gamma's scumMO doesn't mean it's a part of singer's.

[Cheetory6]

I seriously don't get why people are townreading Titus atm.
I'm super fucking wary of just about everything she's done lately and her stance on baneing Bulba is scummy as heck and I'm honestly really annoyed people have been ignoring that -.-

[Cheetory6]

Sorry if I call them halfbaked after I respond to them and you ignore my response.
Golly.

[Cheetory6]

Really pushing that wagon by just dropping your reasons and then not defending them or trying to convince me that I'm wrong.
Like wow got me.
You care more about responding to me saying your reasons are half baked than you do about convincing me to vote for singer.

P-Edit: Oh bullshit. Your earlygame stance was that baneing someone was the equivalent of a motherfucking death sentence. In your eyes baneing Bulba should have been only slightly worse than lynching him. You keep bringing up how much you hated that we went through with the bane at all, but you didn't care that it was on Bulba of all people, your strongest townread. It reads super hard to me like you wanted the towncred of defending against something potentially anti-town but you were super okay with the end result.

[Cheetory6]

Why is whining and bitching scummy?
I honestly am inclined to agree with her that fleshing out reads with ffery is good, but your hydra/mechanics talk with her felt unnecessary.
I can see her POV on the lack of cohesion in the game given that AD is the first wagon that's happened since TTH which died off almost instantly because everyone was super fucking scared of it growing too fast.
I don't see anything in her ISO as 'flailing' as you've termed it.
I don't get this case at all. I get why people find singer scummy. I don't get why people found Empire scummy beyond his interactions with Tammy occasionally being a little dumb at times. I just really don't get it. Because I read a lot of how Empire was playing as being townish.
I also think it would be ridiculous just how much their team has had a stake in this game like. Their team is so open about their reads and stances and they're consistent in a way that just doesn't make any sense to me as coming from scum.
This isn't like a hard townread for me, but like I don't think it's particularly likely that singer is going to flip scum.

[Cheetory6]

Also have been ignoring everything I've been saying about you. Are you hoping you can coast to end cycle so you can off me during night cycle with Esp's detect results?

[Cheetory6]

Post quoted in 2902 is a response to your reasoning. How can you sit back and say "I don't want to get into a screaming match with you" when it reads a lot more like "I don't want to have to argue with you"?

[Cheetory6]

If you're town, then actually engage me instead of copping out with this bullshit of "oh man I am trying not to argue with anyone this game" because it looks so fake to me.

[Cheetory6]

And how do you not know who to follow? You think singer is scum and you think mastin is town and you're voting for singer. How is there any internal struggle?
I am pfffting so hard right now.

[Cheetory6]

Whining and bitching about two opposites is scummy. Complsining about people working together AND complaining about stubborn heads refusing to work together is scummy.

So she can't complain that you focusing on hydratalk with ffery is bad and say that it's bad that people aren't working together otherwise? This is such a fucking bad gotcha point.

If you don't see Singer complaining about lynches that will never fucking happen and pushing people she doesn't want to lynch as flailing, then we define the term differently.

So pushing sidewagons is scummy? Are you going to policy lynch TTH for not being on one of the main wagons next then?

[Cheetory6]

Bleh my second point is unfair. Sorry. I'm in a bad mood.
Let me walk away, calm down and respond to things tonight.

[Cheetory6]

Nice to know you can respond to a point that I admit is unfair but not the one that isn't.

[Cheetory6]

And then I just sat here and looked at Esp doing nothing for the rest of this cycle to avoid getting into shit while posting on other parts of the site.
Yup.

Will look at TSO tonight.

[Cheetory6]

TSO's ISO is full of little things that make me feel like logically he might be scum, but my gut isn't particularly interested atm. I think I might be getting tunnelly because like 25% of the notes I wrote were theorycrafting on how Titus/TSO could be scummates. q.q
Ffery, can you please tell me why Titus is leaning town for you? If I'm getting too caught up on a bad read I'd rather know sooner rather than later.

[Cheetory6]

Uh I've seen her play in two games but I think this is my first time playing with her.

[Cheetory6]

I watched Survivor and vaguely followed Pastry game after I replaced out.

[Cheetory6]

Point on TSO ignoring his teammate's read on AD while voting for him does look a little bad.
He should at least respond to that instead of flailing about how his wagon is bad and singer's vote is bad.
VOTE: TSO

[Cheetory6]

It likely does center on the bad assumption I am scum though.

*twitch*

P-Edit: But are you not at all worried that she might be tryhardscum going hardcore for breaking her usual scum-meta tells/avoiding her typical stubborn towntells to avoid getting lynched? Because I really really really get the impression that the lack of argumentativeness is coming from a place of "I want to see active but I don't want to piss anyone off and get lynched" rather than what she's pushing as "I want to work with people".

[Cheetory6]

Like, I'll trust you if you disagree with what I'm worried about here and focus on other things, but I'm having a hard time getting past this nasty gut feeling that Titus is not playing on the level and I don't really have anyone to talk with about it because my team isn't read this game at all anymore q.q

[Cheetory6]

Don't pretend you don't know what I'm wary of you for.
You know the whole Bulba thing is bothering me a lot and is consistent with a lack of what I'm expecting from your towngame comparatively.

[Cheetory6]

Game I'm referencing here is Survivor.
I don't believe your stance on not defending Bulba against the bane. I really don't.
Like, the level of commitment you had to "I don't think we should bane" vs "I don't think we should bane my main townread" is just not on the same level and it just doesn't jive to me.
And nothing you've done in the last two hundred posts really pinged me as being all that town.

[Cheetory6]

He's either wrong or scum but you put him in the ignore pile?

[Cheetory6]

@Espe, meh. I guess it just kind of strikes me that it'd be easier to try and sort wrong vs scum by probing into that, so it looked a little weird that you'd be like "ignore that shiet" when he's one of the main wagons.

[Cheetory6]

I don't think it's especially odd given that now that he's been baned he's fodder for night actions.
I've personally been putting off doing the metadive on him because I've been distracted by main wagons/trying to use my energy to focus on heavier posters.
There's also a part of me which is hoping that night actions will make it so that I don't have to deal with sorting him because my end-of-interactions read on him was cautiously nullscum and more just confused despite having asked him a bunch of things things/gotten answers.

Whatever. I don't think this is going to go anywhere because I still don't honestly believe what you're saying in response to me and UT is being dum about people posting in a game of mafia so I'll just shut up and focus on reading while I still have some spare time before my last exam.