Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

Hello!

VOTE: eth0s

Has a recent Last visited date and hasn't posted yet.

Is your vote serious?
VOTE: ruru

[Scioness Sajj]

@ruru does it matter that his last visited date is more than 2 hours before this game began?

Is your vote serious?

I want to hear from him and I think we have a better chance of that than of hearing from people who have been AFK for a longer time.

Why do you want to hear from them especially? Do you consider 4 hours into a game being AFK for a longer time?

[Scioness Sajj]

Others have "last visited" date earlier than him. This is what I mean by "longer time". So they are less likely to be online and lurking, and more likely to be just offline. I picked him because his was most recent, making it more likely that my vote will lead to him posting.

Ah, yeah I have misread that.

You've chnaged your vote to ofrhv, don't you think eth0s is lurking anymore?

[Scioness Sajj]

@ofrhv why aren't you participating in rvs?

[Scioness Sajj]

It was a random vote with the added benefit that *if* he is lurking and not just AFK, that it might get him to talk. That purpose has already been somewhat derailed but now we have new information anyway.

ofrhz's "I don’t think lurking is a scum tell" is by far the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

Alright, thanks for the answers!
UNVOTE: ruru

[Scioness Sajj]

I asked because your post 12 was suspicious of ruru and I noticed that not only did you not vote in that post, but that you haven't voted at all.

1. I tried to vote ruru earlier to get her to explain her vote but the post didn’t go through. By the time I noticed, both you and Sajj had a vote on her and ruru responded too.

2. @sajj, Your vote didn’t seem like a random vote so I’m wondering why you would single me out for not doing rvs.

3. Also are we even in rvs? Genuine question

1. Alright, you didn't vote her back then, why are you voting her now?
2. This feels like dodging. I asked you why you didn't participate in rvs since you said you don't have opinion, what does it have to do with how I'm voting?
3. I'm pretty sure IC will post an intro post where RVS and other basics will be explanined, but to not keep you waiting - yes, random voting stage happens at the beginning of the game.

@Scioness Sajj Any reads yet?

Nah, not really. I have bearly interacted with two people. But since you asked:
I get where Ruru is coming from, I don't really agree with what she is saying but that's just different approach, it seems.
Ofrhz seems defensive and a little confused.
And you are just there, you seem pretty passive. What about your reads?

[Scioness Sajj]

I gave my reads in 20, and I continue to like those reads in the few posts since. Now that you're back, I'm interested in starting to form another read.

I get where Ruru is coming from, I don't really agree with what she is saying but that's just different approach, it seems.

Where is Ruru coming from, why don't you agree, and what approach would you take instead?

Yeah, I saw 20 it didn't have any context that's why I have asked.
I'm referring to her rvs - I think lurking is more situational, it can be ai or nai.

[Scioness Sajj]

lol

I mean, have you made those reads to test me or? (I'll answer when I figure out how to format the spoilers)

[Scioness Sajj]

First and foremost, why does it matter what I think about your reads?

In reality, Ruru had checked other members of the game, found the person who had been active most recently, and chose them. This is super town motivated because it increases the chances that Ruru has to actually engage with the person they vote on.

Wouldn't go as far as calling it 'super town motivated', she could have just engage somebody that has already posted in the thread, since time zones and what not. At first glance it look to me like forced lamist attepmpt.

It also turns out to be exactly the mindset that I took last night while waiting for the game to begin. I made the following image to accompany a vote on Callitwhatyouwant, referencing the difference in our name lengths:

*insert nice mspaint piece*

And then I looked at everyone's last time online, realized how long it had been since they had logged in, and decided to switch RVS votes to someone more likely to be active early. Scum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

All of this is pretty meh. 1. You said you wanted to engage somebody that would be likely to answer yet you've chosen somebody that didn't even confirm receiving a role card. If you really share an approach with Ruru then your timeline is off. 2. Ew, overcompensating selfmeta.

7 has a carefree attitude that I like in response to an RVS vote, and that I especially like coming from someone not comfortable with RVS generally.
12, 16 seemed odd in the moment because they misrepresented what Ruru had actually written.
18 apologizes for the misunderstanding, and

proceeds to never bring it up again

<--- townie

1. I don't know why you assumed ofrhz is uncomfortable with rvs, 16 pretty clearly states they are indifferent. 2. why is bolded part bolded? 3. making mistakes like that is nai imo.

[Scioness Sajj]

2. Because it's hypocritical? As for why I didn't rvs, I didn't feel like I needed to. The ball kinda got rolling anyway.

I fail to see hypocrisy in my behavior. In 16 you say you don't have opinion on RVS, so I asked you why not vote. And then you have switched it around by saying I'm suspecting (?) you for something I did myself but that's not the case. I didn't ask you why you have moved past RVS, and I couldn't know that you did becuase you didn't cast a vote nor mentioned it.

[Scioness Sajj]

You have misunderstood or skimmed over much that I wrote, but that's fine. One question, though. How do we know who has confirmed/who hasn't?

If I have misunderstood/skimmed, it's not fine it would be best to explain it. Bolded names on player list are people that confirmed.

I don't like your responses, but I'm having trouble putting my thoughts onto paper. Here's my best attempt: Throughout this interaction it has felt like you are more worried about making a misstep than I would expect from town.

You said you like two of my thoughts but you don't like my responeses, so you are not telling me or anybody what you find scummy/disagree with. You are basing your read on me on a really vague content.
You have said I have misunderstood or skimmed yet you say I'm worried about making a misstep? That's pretty contradictory to me.

@skitter It was.

[Scioness Sajj]

They are town reads, not scum reads. I'm not pushing a lynch on them, so I don't really care if you share them. If you're interested, you are capable of reading and understanding. Here's a hint: There wasn't an error in my timeline.

Understand =/= agree. Just because I want to understand all of your reads doesn't mean I'll sheep them.
If it's not a timeline then Ruru's mindset wasn't exactly like yours.

Actually, I did say what I found scummy. It's what I liked that I didn't share.

You have saind nothing you can be hold accountable on for either.

@Scioness Sajj This is another example of what is making me suspicious. You engaged Ofrhv with a question, and he answered. Why argue about whether or not you've been hypocritical instead of asking follow up questions to continue determining his alignment? Did you already get something out of the interaction, so you don't need to continue it? Feels unnecessarily defensive.

Before I explain answer me this - what do you think I wanted to achive by the question I have asked Ofrhz?

[Scioness Sajj]

It was a timeline, you just mixed up the order of events. Even right here you're mixing up my words if you think I said it wasn't a timeline.

Here's a hint: There wasn't an error in my timeline.

I never thought that your timeline was wrong, it just had to be if you really thought that what Ruru did and you wanted to do were the same thing. But they aren't.
mindset: make meaningful first post to create content by engaging particular player
Ruru: thinks lurking is bad -> looks for potential lurker -> makes a post
Oxy: makes an image to engage player in rvs manner -> checks activy -> chnages approach to active player

Additionally, I have expressed no expectation that if you were to understand them that you would agree with them.

They are town reads, not scum reads. I'm not pushing a lynch on them, so

I don't really care if you share them.

I understand the bold part as you suggesting that if I understood your town reads I would come to the same conclusions as you.

I don't understand what you mean about being held accountable? My words are indelible.

You have this generic gut read on me that you want to push that you can't really explain. If I were to be mislynched today and players were looking for scum on my wagon Day 2 there's nothing that they can pinpoint to you. Reasoning is important. First piece of evidence you have posted was 44 but you backed off immidiately.

Upon re read, that interaction did not go how I remembered it. Please excuse me for 44. That being the case, I'm going to come back to your slot tomorrow.

It's fine. By 'go back' you mean engage me again or reread what I have written and make a case again?

[Scioness Sajj]

The devil is in the details. You've wrote 'exactly the mindset' and I have went from there. I agree that it's not substantial by itself, all the things around it can be, though.

[Scioness Sajj]

Oh there's 3 that haven't posted. Even better

Why?

[Scioness Sajj]

@oxy - what makes you think it's not serious/a joke? (don't answer original question please)

[Scioness Sajj]

@sajj I'll just wait until you get a response, then. Excuse me for interrupting.

I don't understand what exactly you meant by asking if my question is serious of not, if you can answer that without answering for wth0s, I'm game.

[Scioness Sajj]

I was not worried, I used it as an example to explain my point.

[Scioness Sajj]

I believe 54 is the answer to this question.

[Scioness Sajj]

I find this idiom to work in life. This is my first game I'm actually scumhutning, so I have yet to find scum this wat, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 36, Scioness Sajj wrote:
1. I don't know why you assumed ofrhz is uncomfortable with rvs, 16 pretty clearly states they are indifferent. 2. why is bolded part bolded? 3. making mistakes like that is nai imo.
(no, 16 and 22 show that he has little to zero experience with rvs, and thus can't be comfortable with it.)

I disagree. I somebody has never done something it shouldn't equal being afraid/uncomfortable with doing it. There are players that will go in head first, there are players that will shrug it off and players that will ask first. I find informations like that useful.

When scumhunting I look for instances where people show town emotions, thoughts, motivations, etc. It's difficult for scum to fake the emotions of town - the paranoia, frustration, stress that comes from not knowing who is what alignment.

You look for town emotions/thoughts/motivations and yet you are not showing those yourself, that's curious. I disagree, imo being scum is a lot more stressful and frustrating.

As a corollary I think it's easier for scum to find small errors in one's memory of an event, or reasoning for a case than it is to try and identify "fake" town emotions in people they KNOW are town. Town, knowing that they must find scum and working from an information disadvantage are as likely (more so, perhaps?) to make small errors

So you are saying that scum will only be after methodical mistakes?
Are you really saying that paying attention to game is ai?
Also, if that's what you think I'm after with that idiom then you are mistaken.

tl;dr I don't agree that the devil is in the details, and as such I think some of your interactions are more likely to come from scum than from town. However, genuinely different approaches to finding scum would make those interactions NAI.

You really want me to be scum, don't you?

[Scioness Sajj]

"Are you really saying that paying attention to game is ai?" - It definitely can be.

Yeah can be doesn't have to. I find it about as situational as lurking.

"Also, if that's what you think I'm after with that idiom then you are mistaken." - Then what did you mean?

Reactions to certain questions or mistakes give a pretty good idea of people's intentions. Getting to know player's playstyles seems pretty important to me.

"You really want me to be scum, don't you?" Yesterday evening I absolutely did! Then I realized that, and took a night's sleep to clear my head before reevaluating.

Didin't ask about yesterday. Judging by yours 'it's either scum or nai' I bet you still want me to flip red.

[Scioness Sajj]

You're not interested in townreads so nah, I have nothing to share with you.

[Scioness Sajj]

Also, I have a question for everyone here. If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

Do you think you will get anything ai out of answers? Or you are just trying to move the game forward?

[Scioness Sajj]

It was a joke (a mean one but still), reference to what you have wrote ealier. I believe it's nai.

[Scioness Sajj]

@Drixx is part of your reasoning for sparing us the IC copy paste because you think that the people in this game seem like pretty capable mafia players?

I don't like this.

[Scioness Sajj]

You're not interested in townreads

so nah, I have nothing to share with you.

Are you saying he's not interested in knowing who you think is town? Or something else?

He said he was aware of me not understanding his townreads and refused to explain them. It's in 43. And judging by his interactions with Skitter I believe his is being difficult to me on purpose.

@Drixx is part of your reasoning for sparing us the IC copy paste because you think that the people in this game seem like pretty capable mafia players?

I don't like this.

Uhhh... wtf don't you like about it?

Seems like an interaction for the sake of interacting. I don't really see much usefulness in knowing what Drixx thinks of players capability.

[Scioness Sajj]

I think it could give information about people's personalities which aren't AI by themselves but can be compared to their actions. (I also was trying to move the game forward.)

Could you elaborate on this? I mean, an example where chosing and aligment and acting in specific way gives you a result.
Why did you want to moved the game from the state it was in?

[Scioness Sajj]

Hey, Oxy, are you still scumreading me?

[Scioness Sajj]

Hmm, right.
Do you want to read me from 111 and not Ruru?

[Scioness Sajj]

Ah yeah, makes more sense.

[Scioness Sajj]

ugh 1851
Well, I feel like it was rather peculiar game. I'm also really curious what in it stops you from trying to meta read me?

[Scioness Sajj]

You don't want to commit to a read on me, so something is stopping you?

[Scioness Sajj]

@oxy It's not I have no idea what you are trying to tell me.

You are confident in your null read on me but you won't commit to it becuae you are unable to create the read?

[Scioness Sajj]

@oxy, so you have put all this effort in and came out with nothing because?

or that you're being kinda difficult with her but much more open with me.

I think he was tunneling me (I felt tunneled) and that's were his unwillingness to talk to me came from.

I actually think this is a fairly interesting bit of info tbh. If someone believes someone to be a stronger player, they'll read them differently than if they think they're a weaker player; the perceived capability of a player often affects the read.

Alright I understnad that, but how is it going to help eth0s solve the game? Is this meta related?

[Scioness Sajj]

I want to know what conclusions you have come up with after reading my iso that your read on me stayed the same.

[Scioness Sajj]

Sure, after I get what I want from you.

[Scioness Sajj]

Yup, that's what I needed, thank you (sorry if getting on your nerves).

town lean: ofrhz
no read need more time: ruru, eth0s, Drixx, skitter30
need to figure out if I'm omgusing: oxy

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm not sorry at all about anything ever.

[Scioness Sajj]

I'd pick vig to shoot Oxy in the face.

If we are talking setup specific I'd go with vt or maybe jailkeep.

[Scioness Sajj]

You mean I come off as smarter the this (what is this?)?

Example being me having to make a trade with him just now. My reads for an answer to his to my question. I can quote examples if you want more. The 1v1 felt pretty one-sided to me though.

[Scioness Sajj]

Hmm maybe a different way.
Unwillingness to talk me as in he makes it hard for me to get answers from him/refuses to give them.

[Scioness Sajj]

You mean I come off as smarter the this (what is this?)?

Forgive me because this is going to sound blunt, but the question you asked in 150 was a stupid question. It's possible for people to read someone's posts and still walk away undecided about a slot.

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.
You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

Based on what you've previously posted, I think you know enough about the game and are smart enough to know that. So I think post 150 was out of character.

That's really generous of you, but I'm nowhere close to knowing enough or 'knowing' anyhing at all. And it's not like there is one right way to solve the game.

Additionally, I don't like it when people ask things like "so you have put all this effort in and came out with nothing because?" because it discourages people from trying. Intent is a large part of this game, which includes trying to scumhunt.

Wanna talk about discouragment? Shall we talk about four questions I've had to ask and one trade becasue Oxy woulnd't tell me why his read on my stayed the same? And when I finally get an answer it soon after gets dissmissed with a joke about me looking for compliments.
I don't think that question, or anything I will say, would discourage Oxy. He has started with an early scumread on me and has been poking around ever since. I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

[Scioness Sajj]

I didn't mean to discourage you. I tried to answer your questions earnestly. Please regard this post as an invitation to ask any questions you have of me whenever you have them.

This post deserves no town points.

[Scioness Sajj]

169 - I don't take anything that has happend in this game personally, you can stop ate'ing.

The joke also wasn't meant to dismiss your question.

Never said it did. You have dismissed your own answer.

If you didn't take it well, and 161 wasn't a joke, were you saying that you think I should be the lynch today?

You've got my readlist.

I didn't mean to discourage you.

I tried to answer your questions earnestly.

Please regard this post as an invitation to ask any questions you have of me whenever you have them.

Sure you did, honey. Example below.

Spoiler:

because mafia is not an easy game. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this.

I want to know what conclusions you have come up with after reading my iso that your read on me stayed the same.

Would you be willing to share your reads, Sajj?

[Scioness Sajj]

lmao good one

[Scioness Sajj]

I can't help but notice that you're finding a lot of ways to imply that you think I'm scum without actually calling me scum.

Quotes or post numbers please, unless following numbers are what you call implying you are scum.

1)Your vote isn't on me.

It isn't. I have not build a case on you I'm not pushing for a lynch because of where I put you in my readlist.

2)In your read list you didn't call me scum, you said "need to figure out if I'm omgusing."

This is exactly what I said it is.

3)You said I would be a good vigi shot

Nah, never did.

4)When asked if you thought I was a good lynch you said "You've got my readlist."

Yup, you know where I stand.

1. @Scioness: Is English your first language?

I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

2. Is it AI if he doesn't share his thoughts on you? And if so, why?

3. And if you want to lynch him, why aren't you voting him? (For that matter, why aren't you voting at all?)

1. Nope, it's not.
2. I don't think not sharing thoughts has to be AI, but the manner he goes about it bothers me. Example in spoiler in 172, which he also ignored and went stright to scumreading me and he has found 170 to have a vote on me, but it seems like an excuse for a vote more than a reason.
3. I wasn't voting because I'm leaning town on ofrhz, I was talking with ruru and I'm fine with her/waiting on developments, you and eth0s are sick (also just started interacting with both of you) and Drixx is busy. Didn't want to vote Oxy because I felt like most of his actions can be either town or scum motivated and thought omgusing may have affect my read but now we are here and I'm still meh because it feels like he is omgusing me now?

177
In bolded I have implied that I engage on things that I think can give me informations about players and their intentions, I try to generate content. I had an impression that ofrhz thinks that when I question somebody I'm on a look out for scumsplips and that's not true.

On the other side, Sajj makes leaping assumptions about what Oxy says and is at points putting words into his mouth.

Quote examples for me, please?

[Scioness Sajj]

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.
You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one

(Point 1)

? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody

(Point 2)

. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

(Point 3)

1) No. I was townreading you before, and I'm still townreading you now. I summarized why in my previous post.
2) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I don't think I've shared my read on you until just a few minutes ago. I have been asking you a lot of questions, because I was either trying to form a read on you or because I needed clarification.
3) Understandable.

1&2 - This

You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody. I understand what makes you think the way you do.

is an example of you cooperating with me as contrary to Oxy being all vague and secretive and making me push him to get any answers.

But I think I'm nitpicking at this because I don't think your purpose was to discourage people. Instead, your question in 150 seemed more passive aggressive than anything, so all's good.

Yeah, it might have came out of tht way out of frustration since I believe he was doing it on purpose.

[Scioness Sajj]

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

Could you explain what my scum plan exactly is? And how have I executed it?

[Scioness Sajj]

@188 I believe she did answer my question but I will wait for another explanation.

[Scioness Sajj]

funny you mention this as my scum plan becuase in 54 where I was explaning why I want you to answer my questions (have your thoughts and reasoning 'on a paper' n the game) I have added as example exactly what you are saying is my scum plan.

btw I don't think omgusing is scummy. And you are omgusing me if you have got a scumread on me from thinking that I scum read you, which I think you did, but it seems like it's not actually a case? I don't know I'll come back to this tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright, if you understand what I meant then tell me what scum motivation did I have to:
1) reveal my plan
2) encaurage you to share your thoughts

+ how pushing for a mislynch on D1 wins me the game?

[Scioness Sajj]

1). Thanks for letting me know what I thought at that time.
2). I've spent most of the game asking questions and answering them. I didn't engage you, you did engage me. I think at some point I have said that I want to get to know players and their thoughts and you agreed with me I have also said multiple times that I'm more interested in creating content than looking for scumslips this early in the game.
+) they don't work towards my wincon. I'm pretty sure that misslynches benefit scum best when they happen naturally.

Another question:
3)Do you think it was optimal for scum!me to imply/push for lynch on you so early in the game instead of just hoping on a wagon created by town?
4) why would scum!sajj want to misslynch you especially? What would scum!sajj benefit from lynching you over eth0s for example?

I don't really want to lynch Oxy I don't think scum would try to work a case like that.

[Scioness Sajj]

n post 103, Scioness Sajj wrote:
In post 88, Oxy wrote:
As a corollary I think it's easier for scum to find small errors in one's memory of an event, or reasoning for a case than it is to try and identify "fake" town emotions in people they KNOW are town. Town, knowing that they must find scum and working from an information disadvantage are as likely (more so, perhaps?) to make small errors

So you are saying that scum will only be after methodical mistakes?

Example of trying to put words into his mouth. I think Oxy was making a general statement but never implied it was a hard and fast rule.

I'm asking if I understand him correctly, not putting words into his mouth at all here. Like I'm talking to him about his words I'm not saying 'oxy said that...'.

You don't want to commit to a read on me, so something is stopping you?

1). In this entire interaction about reads, I felt like you were assuming he was doing something he wasn't. You think he's holding back his read or whatever, but he really just didn't have a read. I find that believable.

2). Your post 152 was actually the first time you asked him for his general conclusions (Read =/= conclusions). I think 153 was the only time he was holding back. I'm inclined to chalk this up to him being frustrated as a result of the interaction from post 144 onwards, and he gave you his conclusions right after your response. In general, Oxy seems very eager to engage with everyone except in 153, which is the main reason why I'm townreading him.

In 172 in the spoiler, where he said "because mafia is not an easy game. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this," I think that was an earnest answer to your question.

1). In 138 Oxy on his own decides to mention that he has read my iso but came up with nothing. I didn't asked for it, he just thought he would mention it. But he doesn't give any reasoning he just says he did, the fact he ISO-ed me adds nothing to the game. Like he said it for people to know that he is putting effort in without actually progressing the game or sharing his thoughts. He had to have thoughts when he was reading my posts, a reason why his read on me stayed the same. I wanted to know the reason. I agree my questions at first aren't clear enough. I can see now when the misunderstanding is coming from. But then when I tell him exactly what I want to know and he knows what I want he changes topic. I took him as him being difficult on purpose, I believe I was as clear as I could in 152 and he had no reason to change the topic like that. I still wanted to know the answer so I offered to trade informations. And I was just happy to get the answer but then he made a joke. I didn't pay much attention to it I took it as a joke. But then I looked at the joke in the context of the whole convo and it pinged me. The joke paired with the answer makes me think that he said what he thought I would want to hear instead of giving me an honest answer.
2). Yeah the questions weren't clear, I get that. And he did refuse me the answer. It wasn't the first time though.

Spoiler:

You have misunderstood or skimmed over much that I wrote, but that's fine. One question, though. How do we know who has confirmed/who hasn't?

If I have misunderstood/skimmed, it's not fine it would be best to explain it.

In post 41, Scioness Sajj wrote:
If I have misunderstood/skimmed, it's not fine it would be best to explain it.

They are town reads, not scum reads. I'm not pushing a lynch on them, so

I don't really care if you share them. If you're interested, you are capable of reading and understanding.

Here's a hint: There wasn't an error in my timeline.

Bolded pretty clearly states to me that he doesn't want to help me understand what he is saying. I assumed he was being difficult because he was scumreading me.

[Scioness Sajj]

2. I don't think not sharing thoughts has to be AI, but the manner he goes about it bothers me. Example in spoiler in 172, which he also ignored and went stright to scumreading me and he has found 170 to have a vote on me, but it seems like an excuse for a vote more than a reason.

Is it accurate to say that you think he's deliberately ignoring you? IE that you don't inherently have a problem with someone not sharing thoughts, but you dislike it when people avoid direct questions, which is what you think he's doing?

Overall not as much ignoring me as he didn't want to wrok with me and was selective about the things he wanted to answer. I believe he did ignore 172 on purpose when I was talking about it with ofrhz, he did answer it when you brought it up though. The answer seems pretty scummy to me, it's more of an excuse than explanation.

I don't have a people with people wanting to keep information to themselves. But when they wiggle around it it makes me think that they don't want to refuse outright becuase they are concerned with it appearing as scummy. They are more concerned with how they will be precived by players than actually solving the game.

[Scioness Sajj]

I feel like ever since I initially FoS'd her,

Sajj has spent the vast amount of her posts trying to get me to town read her,

and then getting frustrated when I wasn't. I get that town wants to be town read, but I feel like town's focus should be on finding scum. I feel like Sajj is a good enough player and smart enough person to expect this focus from town!Sajj.

Can you show me specifically where you think the bolded is happening?

Oxy, could you answer this instead of providing subjective 'proofs' on your theory?

[Scioness Sajj]

It is reachy, but I'm not telepathic. Maybe she did it subconsciously because she knows that it's a good scum strategy and as such she found it an easy way to throw some shade that might stick. Maybe she's running on putting on airs after being praised for her successful scum game in her previous game, and thought she was invincible. Maybe it was something else. Let's ask her in postgame.

My first scum game wasn't successful from my POV and you should know that after reading end game comments and scum PT.

[Scioness Sajj]

I will. waiting on eht0s first. Didn't want to post much of anything, tbh, but you got under my skin.

What have I done that I have got under your skin?

[Scioness Sajj]

3)the private thread is THIRTY-SIX PAGES. The end of D1 in that game ends somewhere in the first few pages of thread, just after she replaced in. I can't imagine how long the thread would have been if she had been in the game from the start. What does that mean? It means she is putting more effort into these games than probably anyone else here. Her posts in this thread are not indicative of that type of effort.

You were making it sound like I had a lot of scum plans in that PT and proactive ideas how to win that game. Is that correct?

[Scioness Sajj]

Haven't said this up until now because I generally think it's a waste of time arguing against strawman arguments, but I'm pretty fed up with this one. Let's not pretend that you're a paragon of being forthcoming. I had to "trade" you for your reads because you refused to give them to me in 107

I believe I have put an effort in trying to understand you in 39, 107 as I have already explained to you was me being mean to you for telling me to go figure out 30 on my own. And you left it at that, there was no trade at all. Have you asked again maybe you could have get the reads.

[Scioness Sajj]

One other thing I noticed is she likes to not-answer people's questions by asking them a question instead. I think she is doing this more here than she did in 1859.

Could you quote some examples?
----
I think I have addressed all the things from yesterday, if I have missed anything let me know. I will be bearly present or not all through the weekend, so people with have time to catch up.
---
The newst posts from Oxy make me thing he is tunneling me and really want to be right. Ie he had a gut read and thinks he has found a scum slip and is building a case from this POV. I don't think he has tried to actually sort me in this game and he is appealing to the crowd by adding onto his gut read. The case is weak. Too weak for scum on day 1 I believe. I won't be voting him.

p.edit
I have to wake up early tomorrow and it's alread 10pm so idk if we will get somewhere.

By successful I meant that you won. I did see your comment in post game, and I do know from your PT that you felt overwhelmed, but you did a great job and everyone who commented on your game agreed.

No mate, I have lost that game. I was lynched.

Primarily your straw man arguments, as detailed minutes ago in 215. (Seriously, Sajj, are you even reading the game?)

214 (215 is your post) isn't an arguement. I'm explaning my pov there.

No. That is not at all what this is saying. I'll go further and evaluate that statement. You DID have many plans and ideas throughout the PT. Many of them were great ideas. They were mostly reactive in nature, but there were definitely proactive ones as well. Things along the lines of, "we need to kill {player name} because of {game mechanic} and so that {other player name} will suspect so and so." or "I'll go make this argument to accomplish {goal x} which will allow you, meaning your partner, to do y.

Quotes, please.

[Scioness Sajj]

Welp, that's what I get for not reading the game. As I've stated previously, I read your ISO, I read the PT, and I read some post game comments. I also looked at the first post and it has you listed as still alive. so I figured you had won. I didn't actually read the game itself. fine. you lost the game. Everyone still thinks you did a great job and that you're competent scum.

You are drawing conclusion from selectively chosen elements. You are not meta reading me objectively. Metareading somebody from their first and only game won't create strong arguements in itself even less so when the arguemnts were never put into a big picture. You are seeing what you want to see now what actually happened. Also consider:
Day 1 - ended at page 5 with VT modkill.
Day 2- three replacemnets get in and a town driven mislynch
Day 3 - big personal fights a VT selfhammered
Day 4 - my scumbuddy got lynched
Day 5 - I got lynched
Those are facts. You've read my ISO, you know I didn't have any proactive play beside an awful hammer attempt Day 3 that I have somehow survived because of really awful ate (I don't really want to talk about this though. You know how I have felt and what I thought about it from scum PT, it should be enough).
Yet you are describing me from my first game as this mastermind scum player, because people at the end said that I played well. You didn't check for yourself. That's a hearesay, you should not ever try to pass something like that as an arguemnt. I know that you are tunneling me so everything that 'proves' your theory is good enough, but that's not how you will catch scum.

Yeah, it was my post, and in it I detailed how you had gotten under my skin by using straw man arguments.

You weren't preceise in 215. I thought that you were reffering to 214 with 215, if that's not it, let me know what else there is.

Do you deny posting ideas like those described in this post? If so, I'll find the quotes.
The posts DO exist. You wrote them, so I'm pretty sure you KNOW they exist. If you're not denying that you had ideas of those sorts, then please don't send me to do busy work. Not only would that be scummy (giving me busy work to tire me out and muddy this thread with extraneous posts would be scum motivated), but it's also just plain disrespectful of my time.

1). I do deny existance of such posts. The things you are describing as mechanics were most likely us trying to figure the set up. We didn't need a PhD in playing scum to figure out those things. Also, I have tripped terribly over first actual mechanic that was used in the game and it was a crossvote. Which isn't terribly complicated in itself but yeah. I don't remember telling Gem (my scum partner) that I will do x so she can do y. I do remember though that I couldn't help her with ideas to what to post on few occasions.
2). I'm not trying to be disrespectful by any means. If you get into this game with an evidence from another game you better link to it so people can judge for themsleves. Nobody should believe anybody just becuase they say so.
3). It is not scummy to want to get evidence into the game.

[Scioness Sajj]

One other thing I noticed is she likes to not-answer people's questions by asking them a question instead. I think she is doing this more here than she did in 1859.

Could you quote some examples?

31 (Reason or not, the end result is that the questions got answered FILO)
(I falsely remembered 36 as being an example, too, but you did also answer in the same post so scratch this one)
73
111 (Even after answering your question in 118, I still I had to prod you in 160 to get an answer)

In the original you have said that I didn't answer those question but I did answer everything but 73. So is your original point that instead of answering questions I ask questions or that before I answer qestions I ask questions and then answer?

I think I have addressed all the things from yesterday, if I have missed anything let me know. I will be bearly present or not all through the weekend, so people with have time to catch up.

Yes, I would probably be

trying to lynch you right

now if you never answered the original questions at all.

There is no question in my post there, what exactly are you implying?

Hmm...

I think my post is calling her difficult to read, not particularly scummy.

It's interesting that you read it that way. Do you want me to think she is scummy? Would you like to see a wagon on her? If I took your post as motivation to vote, even though you don't find her scummy, would you be held accountable for the wagon?

She's been under pressure all game, but

it hasn't helped me develop a read.

Personally I would lynch her only as a last resort if we don't accomplish anything before then.

And since we have a lot of posts on Oxy vs Sajj, I would be much more interested in seeing reactions from someone else at this point. Like you!

I'm confused by the chnage of your stance here. Elaborate, please?
Also, do you know or are you guessing what you were trying to say in your orginal post to Skitter?

[Scioness Sajj]

[...] Yet you are describing me from my first game as this mastermind scum player, because people at the end said that I played well. You didn't check for yourself.

That's a hearesay, you should not ever try to pass something like that as an arguemnt.

I know that you are tunneling me so everything that 'proves' your theory is good enough, but that's not how you will catch scum.

Are you suggesting Oxy could be lying when he said he thought you won 1851? Stretch.

No, not at all. Bolded sentence is a follow up on the two pevious sentances. I believe that the part you quote is pretty clear in itself, so I don't know what to explain and bolded part doesn't really refer to your question?

[...] 1). In 138 Oxy on his own decides to mention that he has read my iso but came up with nothing.

I didn't asked for it, he just thought he would mention it.

This is not true. You asked him for his reads in 133

Yes I did. And it was explained by 137. I was content with what he has provided as an answer, I didn't ask for more. I belive he felt that he needed to add more an so he did.

[Scioness Sajj]

ebwop:
not 'explained by', 'answered by'.

Welcome, pinturicchio.

Forgot to vote ealier.
VOTE: ruru

[Scioness Sajj]

Thanks! By the way, someone already talked about Newbie 1851 and I read that game too; you are on my watch list because of that game, you blended in so good! But I'm townleaning you for now, because the 1v1 with Oxy is an SvT and you are the T.

Oh lol, has somebody not read that game?
I like what you are saying there and I don't. I will need you to explain those reads at some point n the future.

I'm having trouble catching up, why the vote on ruru? Help good ol' Pin please

There are some inconsistencies from Ruru I want to figure out.

[Scioness Sajj]

Ugh, you will have to wait for my answer until tomorrow, Ruru. I need to figure out how to make my answers 257 readable and I'm too tired to bother with fancy quoting or colors right now.

[Scioness Sajj]

I originally thought this was about the same subject as the previous paragraph, but now I see I misread it. I'm implying that refusing to answer questions at all would be really scummy, but it's not what you did.

Oh no, I have made the dashes to try to separate topics.

It's that sometimes your first response when questioned is to ask a question, not to answer the question.

1. Do you find it scummy? If so, why?
2. Your starting point seems to be that I don't answer them at all. Something has changed or you were just vague?

Hmm, how did my stance change? I'm not sure what you're asking.

The bolded parts go together.
In 205 you've made an observation but didn't express your thoughts.
In 230 you adjust that observation and say you would be lynching me right now if I was actually doing what you said I was doing in 205.
But in 227 you said you would lynch me as a last resort.

I just don't follow how you go from one thing to another.

[Scioness Sajj]

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

I think he genuinely isn’t aware how certain things make him look when he thinks he is right, yet he knows he needs town to listen to him to get things he believes in done, so he will occasionally lamist and talk to you the way he does (or answer your questions for me).
It can be either way alignment wise but I believe his tunnel is ego driven and he is generally just stubborn, I don’t think it’s premediadated. All his reads form from the things on the surface, his confscum on D1 is his gut read and he is kissing up to you because of respect he has gained from that game he has read. My rationale is all of this is too shallow to be faked.
His case on me has gave me a sample big enough to draw conclusions about his motives and playstyle when it’s pointed towards me. I’m sort of on a fence still but there are more things that make me lean town. There is no reason to push this further in the gamstate we are in. I’d rather poke other people and wait for eth0s and second replacement and watch how Oxy interacts with others.
I also think I see what Drixx and Pin are talking about with {oxy, ruru, ofrhz} and I’m much more interested in development on this matter than just solving Oxy’s slot.

[Scioness Sajj]

!!!!

Hi, NSG!

[Scioness Sajj]

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

[Scioness Sajj]

re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

hi scioness!

keep in mind that this is still coming from before i've caught up, but what changed your mind on ruru from your vote to here?

- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

OK, why?

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

[Scioness Sajj]

so it was skitter's vote there that caused you to unvote, or something else?

also, who are your scumreads so far?

304 more than skitter, feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet.

I have townleans on skitter and Pin and I don't know how to answer your question without giving some things away.

[Scioness Sajj]

The moment I say I want to watch you all pull me back in

Wait, after rereading more carefully, 313 doesn't even make sense. Oxy said he still town leaned ruru and didn't want to see her lynched in 305, which is before you unvoted ruru. So when you said "feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet," what people are you referring to...??? That post is all over the place.

Going back and re-evaluating Sajj.

L-1 puts her in the claming theoritor. By people I meant a single person that would decide to vote her. Which would happen when I'm asleep considering that most of you seem to live in time zones hours behind me.

Actually about your vote on Ruru, since you are not advocating for lynching her, why is your vote parked there?

[Scioness Sajj]

Pin - could you compare Oxy's town read on skitter and his case on me and tell me what you think?

[Scioness Sajj]

Ruru - I have read your answer and I get you now. Nothing mroe to add.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ofrhz is ruru obv scum to you?

[Scioness Sajj]

Also if you don't want her lynched anytime soon why is your vote on her?

[Scioness Sajj]

1. Sure this sounds plausible at first glance. But say someone else brought ruru to L-1, who do you think would've quick hammered? eth0s, drixx, northsidegal? any of those people seem like the type of people who would jump the gun and quick hammer?

To be crystal clear, I no longer think your unvote was that suspicious. I do think we should be more comfortable as town with bringing someone to L-2, because I think people respond differently depending on the amount of pressure put on them.

pedit: @Sajj - 2. In a word, no, especially in light of her last post. I just need her to address one more thing that was making me suspicious about her. In case we misunderstand each other again, the rest of the people who have been active seem townish to very town to me; I leaned scum for ruru, which by default, made her the most suspicious out of everybody.
pedit again: 3. Dude, she's not in danger of being lynched. If she gets brought to L-1, I would have reconsidered, but like I just said, who in this game is stupid enough to quick hammer this wagon?

1. I really don't see a reason to have one wagon when there are 4 people bearly in the game. My point was never 'don't quickhammer', it was I have solved my issue and I had no reason to kept it there just for the sake of having wagon.
2. My last question wasn't from pov that I'm afraid she will be lynched, it was made from pov where you have a vote on her since early in the day and yet you have kept that vote without trying to sort/interact with ruru. You didn't do anything with that vote for a fairly long time it was there for no visible reason hence parked.

[Scioness Sajj]

ebwop
in your quote put 2 in the place of 3.

[Scioness Sajj]

My mind didn't really change, I had a pressure vote on her. It gave me some answers I was looking for and that's it.

OK, and what's your current read on her slot?

scummy newb town

304 more than skitter, feels like people are coming around to voting her and no reason to put her into claiming theritory just yet.

Ofrzh wasn't wagoning her there and I kinda feel like if people unvote every time a wagon gets to L-2 we'll never get anywhere. Also my L-2 vote wasn't exactly an indication that it was time for her to claim.

Where do you want to get with five people playing the game right now? I feel like I have answered that in 351.

[Scioness Sajj]

1. You're just talking over me at this point. I quite clearly stated that I no longer found your unvote suspicious - there's no reason for you to feel like you need to defend your actions. Also you made it clear in 313 that you were concerned with her claiming and possibly being lynched.
2. Ah I see your question now. I had my vote on her because she was the most suspicious. In general, I'll probably leave my vote on someone who I think is the most scummy. This is true even if I don't want to see them lynched right away, because I don't see why I need to retract my vote right away if they're not in danger of being lynched. Also, because ruru was pretty active in the first RL day of the game, I assumed she would continue to be active and make other posts that I could follow up on. But when she didn't do this, I think I did egg her on.

1. I'm not really defending I'm explaning becuase you don't understand. Yes, I was concerend about putting her at L-1 but it doesn't mean that I'm concerened with quickhammer.
2. Alright, so you have parked a presurre vote on her for four days. Did you get any conclusion from this? I mean, do you think her behaviour changed?

[Scioness Sajj]

Update on my reads and scumpool since NSG asked:

Ruru - up to a townlean. I think her intentions are geniue. She has 'passed' my pressure vote.
Scumpool of {Oxy, ofrhz}
ofrhz - towny on his own, I don't like his play that much after the scumteam of Oxy/ofrhz has been mentioned, though.
Oxy - since I have made my post with reasoning on my townlean he has been proving me wrong. If one is scum so is the other imo.

Don't really see a reason to wagon inactive slots (drixx & eth0s). Drixx has no reason to lurk and eth0s is inactive in both of his games.

VOTE: oxy

[Scioness Sajj]

?????

[Scioness Sajj]

Ah, if you are answering me. I have quoted your post becuase it was perfect reaction to how I felt when I get back to the thread today.

But since you've answered - yeah, I'm pretty sure that it's his way of catching up. He re-reads everything and post comments as he goes.

[Scioness Sajj]

I had no problem following Drixx's thoughts in 254 and I think Oxy took it out of the context/misread it and ofrhz panicked? I didn't like his reaction to the posts connecting him with Oxy (on which he has a townlean/townread? i'm not sure) and he went with some posts that were putting you in the spotlight (pin had his scum pool {you, oxy, ofrhz}) and he quoted 268 yet he didn't really find a reason to interact with you all this time? Seems like distracting in a way 'look at her she is scummy, not at me'.

I will add more on this when I will get to catching up and answering things from last night.

[Scioness Sajj]

About Drixx still a null read, I see no reason for his inactivity to be considered as alignment indicative and where I agree with him he still could have scum or town motivation to say those things, so I will reevaluted after flips if needed.

[Scioness Sajj]

scumpool of {Oxy, ofrhz}
ofrhz - towny on his own, I don't like his play that much after the scumteam of Oxy/ofrhz has been mentioned, though.

I guess we’re back to this. What haven’t you liked about my gameplay?

I don’t really understand the eth0s votes, is he more likely to make this game a priority if we wagon him? Also are you guys comfortable with policy lynches?

I don't understand why you are saying 'we're back to this' I think it's my first time mentioning it?

I have sort of explained it in my post to ruru. But examples (can provide post in necessary):
1. I remember you saying to me that I have lied and I'm nervous that you are sussing me. I don't see a reason for you to state your opinions like that - you are not really asking for clarification nor are those things affecting your read on me. But they are there for some reason, perhaps you are leaving crumbs behind that you can use when it will be more beneficial to scum!ohrhz to push a case on me. Especially when I add to it that you were about to go and re-evaluate at me but backed off.
2. In 438, examples 268, 247.
3. 255 you mention two post, one from the beginning of the game and the other most current. I feel like if you genuinely didn't know what he was referring to you'd just ask which post it was. I agree that Drixx's post was vague, so if you really didn't understand what he was referring to it seems more naturally to me to just ask generic question instead of giving two examples.

You are towny on your own and on their own those things above are pretty much nai, can be just your playstyle, but when I connect them with agendas Oxy's pushing then it looks like teamplay. Solving Oxy would make it easier for me to read you and all other slots in general.

In post 438, Scioness Sajj wrote:
I had no problem following Drixx's thoughts in 254

Interesting. Would you like to take a stab at explaining what Drixx might have meant in that post?
I’ll wait for the rest of your thoughts before addressing it

I take that back, Drixx's post is a lot more confusing than I remember it. I understand that the post is 240 and someone that pointed it out is Pin.
-----

In theory if eth0s was scared scum he would go back and try to save himself. But that's really weak bait/scum hunting tool. I don't think anybody with some experience would fall for this play. And if there is lynch on the empty slot then there is really little to work with next day.

I'm against PLs. If somebody isn't fun to play with they should get replaced. If people are busy they are busy and will get back or get replaced, if someone is active lurking (posting occasionally with no content) then I don't really see it as PL, same with matebased ai lurking. I'm pretty sure I'd make some expectations in specific cases, but generally no policy lynching.

[Scioness Sajj]

pff, I've messed up. my answer after dashes are for last two questions from the first quote (I assumed they were towards me, but I wasn't sure?)

[Scioness Sajj]

The most frustrating part of this game for me is reading the stream of bullshit coming from Sajj, and having none of my town reads see it.

That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. It's excellent bullshit, and I'm impressed. It's still bullshit, though.

If you are actually town don't ever /in in any games I'm in, thanks.

[Scioness Sajj]

Skitter - I'm writing an answer for you, but I have to go now. I should post it in about 2-3 hours.

[Scioness Sajj]

@Oxy - it was an honest request.

@ofrhz - are you fine with 449, but not 452?

I just got back, writing to skitter now.

[Scioness Sajj]

Where do you want to get with five people playing the game right now? I feel like I have answered that in 351.

It's not that I particularly want to go somewhere so much as I feel like people are being overly cautious of L-2, and that since wagons are being unvoted kinda prematurely imo, the target might not feel pressured to actually respond to them.

It was only me being cautious. Ruru was first wagon to be formed this game, I believe. And yeah, I get what you are saying and I agree.

Oxy - since I have made my post with reasoning on my townlean he has been proving me wrong. If one is scum so is the other imo.

I still don't really understand the connection between scum!oxy and scum!ofrzh.

Why has oxy no longer been acting townie in your opinion?

I never found his action towards me to be townie, I have explained why I have a townlean here 284. Since then he has been giving me reason to believe that his actions were premeditated.

------This part is to everybody, consider it being my case on Oxy------

In post 14, Oxy wrote:
@Ofrhz How do you feel about RVS in a general sense?

This post is an early attempt of mine to trip Ofrhz up. Had he answered in nearly any other way, I would have scum read him in 20 rather than town read him.

It's similar to how I gave Sajj extra rope to hang herself in 171 before posting 173.

171 is just after the misunderstanding/me being unclear/whatever you want to call it. He said he didn’t answer 152, because it wasn’t a question (when in post above he said he doesn’t understand what I want from him, so he knew I wanted something from him yet he didn't answer because I didn't form a question in my clarification). And then in 171 he already gives me a rope. I have no reason to believe that he was being genuine in that series of posts.

Also 316 proves that he is able to analyze a game on deeper level. So why his first case on me was so weak? Weak to the point I had to explain to him why most of it is too weak to push a case. He didn't come up with anything stronger, he saw that 'his town reads' weren't buying, he didn't really try to reason with people (I don't remember him trying to convince you or get into a convo why you don't find those things suspicious were he had me as obvscum on me, I don't remember him discussing it with anybody), I think if it was town motivated tunnel he would argue more or actually reconsider if maybe what he thinks is wrong since everybody else disagreed with him. Instead he goes with:

I know Sajj has posed questions for me, but I'm just going to ignore them for the moment. My town reads remain unconvinced that she is scum, and that is enough to give me pause at this point. Don't misunderstand me. Sajj is still my #1 lynch today. I just don't think it's pro-town to continue going back and forth with her right now.

1. Town reads don't agree = they are wrong. So instead of actually making better case on me he went into buddying you and every now and then just posting how scummy I am without even providing what he is referring to. He just makes sure you don't forget how scummy I am.
2. This reads to me that he refuses to re-evaluate. I highly doubt he ever wanted to re-evaluate or consider anything I wrote from town!sajj perspective because:

tl;dr I don't agree that the devil is in the details, and as such I think some of your interactions are more likely to come from scum than from town. However,

genuinely different approaches to finding scum would make those interactions NAI.

I don't understand why somebody having different approach to finding scum then he has make those attempts NAI instead of just town? It feels like he is saying here that he has already made up his mind and everything I say has to be either null or scum. And this was really early in the game.

General things:
1. Oxy has said he has done some thinking about his reads but not really. His reads stay about the same. So he is either extremly confident he is right and I see no reason for town!oxy to be so confident especially when he subscribes to the paranoia theory. He has created his town block and they should follow him. Becuase following him is apparently being a team player

--ruru is being a team player and it is absolutely pro town vote. Also, I like to think that my asking her helped.

and that what the game is about, right?

I don't remember the game. I read it before this one started, so when we started playing, I noticed your name. I remember you (town) getting wrecked by a super lurker/trolly mafia team with not mafia.

I also remember having similar reads to you, and then finding out that you had some of the best reads of town.

I can search for it if you want?

He keeps skitter in high regard because her reads were good and they also covered with his. What happens when her reads don't cover with hers? They make him pause, not reconsider if he is right. Just stop his case he so strongly believes in. He just has to keep telling skitter how towny and a good player she is and at some point she will start listening to him. In the meantime he can try to lynch a lurker. That's scum trying to presuade another player not town resonating with someone.

2. Oxy answers skitter's questions to me.

Spoiler:

Is it accurate to say that you think he's deliberately ignoring you? IE that you don't inherently have a problem with someone not sharing thoughts, but you dislike it when people avoid direct questions, which is what you think he's doing?

There wasn't a question in that spoiler, or I would have answered it.

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

I don't understand this either. It feels like scum!sajj feels forced to keep her non-read on me. I have no reason to believe Sajj thinks this way, but it feels like one of those people who believes consistency in reads is the ultimate town-tell and has awful read progression as a result.

What town motivation Oxy has to hop in like that? Quote 1 - he makes a really bad excuse for himself. Quote 2 - Skitter is talking to me, yet he has to add his opinion

he has no reason to believe in

. Guess who has no read progression? Oxy. Because all the most active players he already sorted for game (I mean he pretended to sort ruru, who is connected to me by my 'no l-1 ruru' thing but he arrived at the same conclusion he has started with even though, he has mentioned he has an arguemnt against her being scummy he is not sharing just yet) and there is pin which he is either sorting or trying to sort but he has no other choice either aligement.

3. Oxy discredits, puts a scum narrative.

Spoiler:

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

Ironically, it's only after I stop pushing a lynch on Sajj that she starts throwing scum tells out left and right.

quelle surprise

Drixx has no reason to lurk

scumslip and spew.

ebwop: except for Sajj. That girl be scum.

The most frustrating part of this game for me is reading the stream of bullshit coming from Sajj, and having none of my town reads see it.

That's not meant to be an insult, by the way. It's excellent bullshit, and I'm impressed. It's still bullshit, though.

The basic gist is this: At her most townie, Sajj is doing superficial scumhunting. At her most scummy, Sajj is throwing vague shade around the room with little to no analysis of how she reached her conclusions. In the middle of those extremes she is adding to game confusion with answers to wrong questions and other hollow content. She lacks the curiosity of town. e.g., When Ruru, myself (and I'm sure others) were looking at Eth0s recent post and thinking, WTF???, Sajj was like, "oh yeah I think that's eth0s."

This is all shading. The example is misrepresentation, Ruru has misunderstood why I have quoted her post and started explanning why eth0s post made no sense to her. Then she got to the conclusion that he started catching up on her own before I got to answer her and say that I agree that that's what eth0s is doing.

4. Oxy looks for my partner in lurkers.
He can't look for a partner in his town team so yeah. But why in the first place would he look for my partner in bearly active people instead of pushing a lynch on me. He is sure I'm scum, but he backed off as soon as he saw townteam isn't going to follow. He apparently cares more about his townteam comfort than solving and winning the game. Making people believe your case doesn't mean he has to go into 1 v 1 with me, he could just make a better case. Which I bet he actually could judging by his excesive town read on Skitter if he had one.

5. Paranoia.

428 should clear up a lot of that. Paranoia is a town trait. We'll get there in the end. =)

Paranoia is only good from a pov of a person that wants to lead town and has enough towncred to get people to sheep them. By no means being overly paranoid it’s protown nor it’s ai. (Like, if Oxy believes paranoia is towny than he isn’t towny by his own ai definition of paranoia???)


This all is either extremly bad deathtunnel or an attempt to get two easy mislynches off and has a control over the game.

If this is a town play then I don’t think I have done anything in this game or at all to warrant this kind of paranoia/tunnel. It’s bad town play (for both him and me and everybody else, since he is now looking for my partner 369, so he is putting the game in narrative for everybody) and I don’t need that affecting my reads or making me want to go against my wincon just to prove him wrong. I don’t know how to deal with it beside making the game a 1v1 again.
I have tried to make him understand why his first case was weak, but he just stopped responding for lamist reasons so yeah.

Sorry but my vote is parked on Oxy. I don't want to make it about me, but I need this solved because the tunnel is affecting me. I have made my case and he can make his and you can judge from there. Or it can wait till d2, but I'm pretty sure that if I'm alive it will be the same story.

[Scioness Sajj]

Then make your case and vote me, instead of dismissing mine.

[Scioness Sajj]

my case*

[Scioness Sajj]

btw scum!me has virtually no reason to go back to oxy now, when people has moved on and are about to lynch lurkers. The only reason for scum!me to push back now would be if you were about to lynch my scum mate but that would mean second scum is in {drixxx, eth0s} but I'd gain towncred from bussing then getting myself into the spotlight for refusing to lynch a lurker.

scum!me would also benefit more from having a scum lean on ruru and me not doing it would me that ruru is scum. but then scum me would have no reason to go back to mislynching oxy isntead of going with a luker lynch.

[Scioness Sajj]

If ya'll think I'm doing what I'm doing becuase I'm pushing for mislynch or have other scum motives then you gotta lynch me.

If you don't wanna vote Oxy for the reasons I have mentioned you can consider me pretty useless for the rest of this day phase. If he is actually town then I'm paranoid and omgusing him to the point where all my reads are affected and I need a break from the game.

[Scioness Sajj]

I really need you to stop engaging with me. It’s really hard not to be toxic and resentful towards you and I’m upset enough with myself for going for ‘it’s me or him’ because it’s antitown as hell.

This post is nai and shouldn’t be read much into. I don’t like drama regardless of alignment, it’s in my scum pt if somebody cares to check if it is true or if I’m wifoming/whatever.

Sorry, ofrhz you will have to wait for my answer till tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

If you (or anybody) really consider dropping a scum read on me for 477 and 479, you shouldn't.

477 is me!town being selfish and antitown at best or me!scum getting myself in risky deal and giving excuse for being useless at worst.
479 is a follow up with me asking you to stop before I get toxic. That's bearly ate.
I feel like both posts are really mild and could be fabricated. Anybody that had read my iso from my first game or the game can say I have done worse ate as scum, which I'm not proud of but there is no denying that I have done it. I feel like there would be nothing sociopahtic about writing this post as scum. Probably it's best to treat those as nai and move on.

Now, this post is a wifom.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ruru - I see no reason to unvote. I didn't expect it but it doesn't make me feel better about his alignment. Don't really wanna comment further.

pin - I will get back to you tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

488 - I have voted Oxy and said I'm scumreading him before you all have went into lynching lurkers. So it was a moment when nobody was actively considering Oxy as scum.

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright I'm back and have like 5 posts to address.

@Oxy - it's fine, don't worry about it. I'm missing from the gamestate part and I'm not sure what to make of it, why didn't you include me?
504 seems sincere, it explains some (most?) things that had been confusing me in Oxy's behaviour. We will see as this goes.

UNVOTE: oxy

[Scioness Sajj]

In the 1851 Mafia PT, she has planned on different occasions to throw fits for show. 477 or 479 are NAI. She shouldn't be taken out of the lynchpool based on these posts alone.

I don’t understand what ‘fits for show’ have to do with the ate itself. I have NEVER in that game planned ate to gain towncred or townreads. I have mentioned fighting people or wanting to fight them.
Was I in skitter’s lynchpool?

[Scioness Sajj]

I really don't like the "either or" here. Do you still feel like either you or Oxy should be the D1 lynch now that Oxy no longer thinks you're conf scum?

If his tunnel was actually a thing, and I believe in it more now since he has addmited, then I don't need to make it 'me or him'.
My biggest problems with Oxy:
1. his tunnel on me was lacking some characteristics of tunnels I have seen before
a). he was not 'fully' tunneling - if he really believed the things he saw made me scum, he would argue about it more imo
b). a lot of his arguments was taken from the source outside of the game like he couldn't find things good enough in the game
c). even if he cared about not upsetting people with another 1v1, he could have make a case for his townblock and try to get my lynch like that
2. it felt like he, on purpose, was being difficult (when he said that if I want to understand his townreads I have to read them myself and the one time he dodged and made a joke about it).
3. it felt like he walked into a game with the idea that I got to be scum
4. he was loud about me, but was never actively trying to convince anybody (posting that I'm scummy but never quoting things for people to pay attention to, so nobody knows why I'm scummy)
the above made me unable to sort him and because of it:
1. I have focused on trying to figure him out
2. I was focusing on finding answers and got into tunnel myself
3. I have realized that I may have biased pov and I can't trust myself, got paranoid
4. I got more paranoid because I had to double check if what I'm thinking is what I'm seeing or if it's me looking at things from scum Oxy pov
So when I saw post that finally made me disbelief that his tunnel was genuine I had to make a case and push it into 'me or him' because if the same thing was happening Day 2 I would most likely have to replace out because of being paranoid about being paranoid and general annoyance I have gained from the state things were in (this is about me not being happy with myself, not me blaming anybody). Since it is not a thing, I should get out of the tunnel and paranoia soon enough to get back into the game.

I will make one big post with spoilers with answers for everybody but eth0s I think. I have singled this one out becuase I think it exlains where I stand right now and everybody should read it. More to follow.

[Scioness Sajj]

sajj is confusing me a bit

same

[Scioness Sajj]

Actually I will be just posting things

[Scioness Sajj]

ofrhz (pretty much outdated now, but hope it makes more sense now)

Spoiler:

I had no problem following Drixx's thoughts in 254 and I think Oxy took it out of the context/misread it and ofrhz panicked?

Where did I panic? …Why would I panic with no one voting me?

I believe you could be neverous if somebody connected you with your scum partner. It made me nervous in my 1st game even though it was a town read

I have sort of explained it in my post to ruru. But examples (can provide post in necessary):
1. I remember you saying to me that I have lied and I'm nervous that you are sussing me. I don't see a reason for you to state your opinions like that - you are not really asking for clarification nor are those things affecting your read on me. But they are there for some reason, perhaps you are leaving crumbs behind that you can use when it will be more beneficial to scum!ohrhz to push a case on me. Especially when I add to it that you were about to go and re-evaluate at me but backed off.
2. In 438, examples 268, 247.
3. 255 you mention two post, one from the beginning of the game and the other most current. I feel like if you genuinely didn't know what he was referring to you'd just ask which post it was. I agree that Drixx's post was vague, so if you really didn't understand what he was referring to it seems more naturally to me to just ask generic question instead of giving two examples.

!!!You are towny on your own and on their own those things above are pretty much nai, can be just your playstyle, but when I connect them with agendas Oxy's pushing then it looks like teamplay. Solving Oxy would make it easier for me to read you and all other slots in general.

1. I don’t think I ever accused you of lying??? Or of being nervous? (Maybe you thought I was accusing you of being defensive in 355, but that was just me trying to back out of the argument bc I wasn’t interested in pursuing it any further. Please just take that post at face value). In fact, whenever you've misunderstood me or someone else throughout this game, I feel like I have given you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, considering I’ve never accused you of lying or of being nervous, I think the rest of your first point is moot. I will say that I did go back and re-evaluate you, and I haven’t said anything about it because I’m waiting on people (namely Drixx) to come back and post some more first.

In 245, something is not true = something is a lie. Yeah, post from your answer and edit from 336, I have read that as you calming me down and the post you have already mentioned. I'm taking your posts at the face value, what I'm presenting here is are those little things that would connect you to Oxy, if done with certain reasons in mind.

2. In 247 I was curious why Drixx conspicuously didn't say anything about ruru. At this point, I was considering ruru/Drixx, and Drixx’s latest post seemed like he was distancing himself from ruru.
In 268, I just agreed with him. Idk what else to say. Like I said earlier, most of ruru’s posts were just clarification questions for a while, and I didn’t want to probe her for that. If you go back and read my posts, I think I did engage in ruru based on what little else I had to work with, but admittedly I could have done a better job.
3. When someone says something I don’t understand, I sometimes go back to previous posts to see where they may be coming from. I don’t understand how this is hard to believe? I think my response to Drixx in 376 explains why his argument was just out of left field.

It is not a case of something being hard to believe, it a case that it is possible. I don't see things in mafia as black and white. I think skitter gave ruru good examples in 515. I believe when Drixx said you were putting narrative he saw it as a possbility and said it to see your reaction.

You made all these individual points, but then never explained how they are scummy if Oxy was scum. Which, given the argument you trying to make, is the only important part imo.

It's the blue part with !!! at the start. Meaning: on your own, in a vacuum, you are towny. But if I look for things connecting why player with another then those little things can indicate that you have been aiding scum!oxy

Can you explain why you think Oxy is suspicious? I’m also confused by what agenda Oxy and I could be pushing, so can you also elaborate on this a bit?

I have explained why I think Oxy maybe scum but about the agenda - get Oxy leader position and those statements could be there for you to picked them up when you were to changed your mind and back off from your town read on me. I'm aware, now more so than before, that I'm paranoid, but that would be something that would be connecting you to scum!oxy.

@Scioness, before building my own case, I want to help you not to have a bad time with this game. I know it's not easy to understand since you are in the eye of the storm, but Oxy is a pretty easy sortable player, and it can be explained with one single word: overconfidence. Look at his progression: he starts with some townreads, he engages a little with you, but when he really really comes and push his reads is when he gets townread by his own townreads so he, in his mind, becomes the "leader" of his townbloc, because other people is having problems sorting out the rest of players. Best example: ruru voting for Drixx because Oxy asked her to do it. Another example: after I dismiss my case on him and ofrhz, he asks me to vote for someone he is scumreading (don't remember who it was, if eth0s, Drixx or you), because that's how he plays: he gets townread, he lead.

Thanks and sorry if I upset you by being upset! It is fair to assume I don't understand how overconfident people work because I really don't, I have an idea of general characteristics and traits but that's it. I think you are cutting him too much slack, though. And I don't generally think people are that simple, his progression isn't that clear. And assuming Oxy is just over confident doesn't explain everything. Do you think he was so confident he was sure he would lynch me d2 becuase I would produce enough evidence for townblock to follow him?

Overconfidence is a townie treat, because scum can't be overconfident in their reads. Why? Well, because scum knows who is town and who is scum, of course. That's not overconfidence in their reads, that's knowing for sure that their reads are good or bad. And simulating to be overconfident is really really hard, or at least keep playing like that during the entire game. The only post where

I've seen Oxy not being overconfident is after you AtE posts in this page, and that stills make sense because he has tunneled you so hard that maybe he felt bad for it.

And yes, I understand how you feel with the tunnel, it has been horrible, but that's a playstyle you will encounter more than once.

I disagree. For me it's more a human trait less a playstyle thing. So if someone is confident outside of the game they will be confident in game regardless of alignment. I agree that it's probably hard to fake.

Again, he was overconfident enough to have me confscum but not overconfident enough to push it harder and that's were you are losing me. It's still a mystery to me, why it went the way it went. Bolded - if he was looking with everything I have said with confscum!sajj how likely is it for him to stop because of something I was saying, I can see if it was an influance from outside of the tunnel. This all makes perfect sense to you but the connections seem pretty loose to me. I don't know if there is actually any point in discussing this. Hard to messure confidence I believe.

Ah, I think it wasn't tunnel itself that bothered me but my inability to understand it and things around it. This game hasn't been that bad. Thanks again for being considarate though!

note: I think I see wifom(?). You had pretty strong confident entrance.

About your case on Oxy: it's great, really. People tend to analyze cases ex post and not ex ante; if Oxy flips town and you get lynched and you too flip town, people would say "wow what a shitty case", but that's unfair, since your case was built with

much more less information

. But the thing is, for the rest of us who aren't in the eye of the storm... Wait I'll talk for myself not for the rest:

for me, Oxy is pretty much confirmed as town, so even if your case is great, I can't see how can we both be reading him so differently. I'm not scumreading you because of this, but because I'm scumreading you and townreading Oxy, I can't see your case as something else than a great attempt to get away of suspicions.

What do you mean by less information? You mean that because of the tunnel I wasn't looking at the full picture?
Bolded shows weird bias. This looks to me like you are saying that town has to have the same reads, could you elaborate? And you seem really confident it has to be t vs s, even though you like my case. I understand you liking my case as you agreeing with things I have said.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 526, Scioness Sajj wrote:
I don’t understand what ‘fits for show’ have to do with the ate itself. I have NEVER in that game planned ate to gain towncred or townreads. I have mentioned fighting people or wanting to fight them.
Was I in skitter’s lynchpool?

I meant that you've been histrionic as scum before. You're right, I don't know if you were pretending to be offended or not, and in fact, I think you were genuinely pissed off at points in that game. However, my point at the end of the day is that you being pissed off isn't indicative of town, but skitter seems to think it is. (btw, viewtopic.php?p=9960891#p9960891 is one example of the kind of post I'm talking about. Ruru found this earlier.)
I think I used the wrong word here. When I said "lynchpool," I meant "willing to lynch you if you were scummy" enough. She just said that she no longer wants to consider lynching you at all today, which is an extreme reaction and not at all consistent with her relatively cautious playstyle.

You are saying I have been histronic as scum before like you have seen dozens of my games when I was ate-ing people. I don't want to make excuses for myself but it was my first mafia game ever and it was a wild ride. You should know that if you have read the game and scum pt.
That was not your original point at all, though. Originally you have said that I have planned fits in scum PT.

[Scioness Sajj]

Like I understand it's not ill intendet but you are dragging me for things that are misinterpreted and taken out of context. This is not a case of interpretation it's case of happend or didn't happen. I have been open about how I felt in scum PT evrything is there. I remember apologizing for that exact post to my scum partner.

If you want to bring arguments from my only other game and present them here you will have to do your homework and read everything (or enough) to prove it.

Metareading isn't taking single posts out and saying 'look it can be true'. Metareading is making assumptions on players playstyle that are most likely to be true based on patterns in behavior. There is only one game, you don't know if I wouldn't act like that as both alignments. By those things in here in the form you did you are just creating paranoia about me at best and bias against me at worst. You are also forcing people in this game to read another game and it is not helping everybody.

[Scioness Sajj]

That was not your original point at all, though. Originally you have said that I have planned fits in scum PT.

Yeah that was my original point, but I went back and skimmed through the threads to find examples, I realized I was just misreading. Out of the examples I could find, I'm not sure if you were acting or just being really frustrated. For example, in that post I linked in the game thread wasn't mentioned in the scum thread, so I don't have any evidence it was planned. That's why I said in my last post that you were probably just genuinely pissed off there. Another point of confusion for me originally was that in the scum thread, you said you wanted to pick a fight (which I originally thought meant "act like you're mad") multiple times, but I went to find the post in the game thread and I think you just meant you were going to argue against what someone else had said.

If you have misread it would be best to say you did so. Because if I didn't react to it and didn't push it, there would be just false, fake evidence in this game on me doing things I didn't.

I'm sorry I'm fussing so much over it, I don't want to make this game about my other game but if I feel like if I let it be and people will keep bringing things like that in the way you did, I will be either forced to make every game about my other games or just get lynched for whatever reasons and it seems unfair to me. Especially with things that I have apologized for in game, in scum pt, after the game and personaly.

If you want to read my other game to get an idea of what kind of player I am, that's fine. But I need you to do it right.

I'm pretty sure the posts are there, I will look for them tomorrow.

Rant over sorry.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 86, Scioness Sajj wrote:
This is my first game I'm actually scumhutning, so I have yet to find scum this wat, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work.

Scioness says she is scumhunting, but she, at this time, has almost only interacted with Oxy, implying that, without even interacting with the rest, she already caught a mafia member.

I don't understand how you came up with your conclusions. This post you are refering to is taken out of context and misread. It was made on page 4 and it was my answer to Oxy asking how my scumhunting method works. Up to that point I have interacted with ruru, ofrhz, asked eth0s a question and was talking with Oxy. The convo:
Oxy: Do you often find scum by finding details that don't add up in their reads?
Sajj: This is my first game I'm actually scumhutning (meaning game before I was faking scumhunting so I have never scumhunt before = I have no expirence), so I have yet to find scum this wat (I never found scum scumhunting this way before because I never did it), but I see no reason why it wouldn't work(I think it should work that's why I have the approach I have).

I don't understand why you have quoted this post without first sentance that was refering to what we were talking about.

In post 107, Scioness Sajj wrote:
You're not interested in townreads so nah, I have nothing to share with you.

A mild excuse to not provide with a readlist so she doesn't have to commit to any reads at all.

I have explained it before. I asked him for explanation he refused ans said if I want to understand what he meant I can figure out myself since I can read. That was me refering to that moment. Do I need to exlain this further?

In post 144, Scioness Sajj wrote:
You don't want to commit to a read on me, so something is stopping you?

... And the contradiction. She engages with Oxy because he doesn't commit to a read, when she hasn't commited to her reads either. I've seen this before: scum reflects their own behavior on town to make them look as scum.

That's not it. Few posts above I have asked Oxy about his read on me, that was the engage, he said that it was the same and linked me the post. I saw it and let it be. Then Oxy, on his own, added that he had read my iso. An iso from 70 pages long game is a lot of informations so I was curious what he was thinking. I'm aware I have asked about it wrong way and it wasn't clear what I was asking for, I wasn't clear to me when I was asking the questions. It was later talked about.
You have taken one post out a convo that was about 6 post (I don't remember how long it was) where at the end I have communicated clearly enough (I believe for everybody finally) what I was asking him for.
I have NEVER used this post or your interpretations of it as an argument against Oxy.

In post 156, Scioness Sajj wrote:
Yup, that's what I needed, thank you (sorry if getting on your nerves).

town lean: ofrhz
no read need more time: ruru, eth0s, Drixx, skitter30
need to figure out if I'm omgusing: oxy

Scumhunting, but one townlean and no scumreads? This is a really early read so I'm giving you a pass on this, but it's really weird and feels that you gave no content at all, so we still don't know your sorts.

7 pages into the game. I didn't interact much with everybody and things that have been posted have been pretty nai to me. I didn't know there is a requirment of how I am supposed to format my redlist. I have grouped people how I felt about them at that time, I think the groups themsleves explain enough.

In post 258, Scioness Sajj wrote:
In post 252, pinturicchio wrote:
Thanks! By the way, someone already talked about Newbie 1851 and I read that game too; you are on my watch list because of that game, you blended in so good! But I'm townleaning you for now, because the 1v1 with Oxy is an SvT and you are the T.

Oh lol, has somebody not read that game?
I like what you are saying there and I don't. I will need you to explain those reads at some point n the future.

I'm having trouble catching up, why the vote on ruru? Help good ol' Pin please

There are some inconsistencies from Ruru I want to figure out.

This is were I said you were T and Oxy was S; your vote on ruru makes sense with your later explanation (you saying it was a pressure vote), but never explained what inconsistencies you needed to figure out.

It was a pressure vote and a reaction test. You have asked me about this before Ruru answered me. I couldn't give you few sentences long answer at that time becuase the reaction part would got busted. I didn't want to tell you to wait becuase again reaction part would be busted. I didn't want to ignore you so I gave you a generic answer. The inconsistenceis were in my first post to ruru.
I don't think I have to explain everything I do and ask for if nobody is asking. I don't see how this makes me scum.

In post 306, Scioness Sajj wrote:
re convincing - I don't find it scummy in general and especially not in the context Pin used it originally.
------
some updates:
- some people are scumming it up for me, I wanna take a back sit for a moment and watch how all of this plays out
- not in for a ruru lynch or putting her on L-1 so I'm hopping off the wagon

UNVOTE: ruru

Again, you unvoting ruru makes sense, but you said "some people are scumming it up for me", and in reality almost all your interactions kept being an ongoing back and forth with Oxy.

Yeah, I have saw some things as potentially scummy. It were things from Oxy talking to you and/or ofrhz I don't remember if it was him talking to me or talking to somebody else. I'm really not sure if it was one of them or both. I have left it vague on purpose, I wanted to see more content from Oxy (and/or ofrhz) and not alert him/them.

In post 363, Scioness Sajj wrote:
Update on my reads and scumpool since NSG asked:

Ruru - up to a townlean. I think her intentions are geniue. She has 'passed' my pressure vote.
Scumpool of {Oxy, ofrhz}
ofrhz - towny on his own, I don't like his play that much after the scumteam of Oxy/ofrhz has been mentioned, though.
Oxy - since I have made my post with reasoning on my townlean he has been proving me wrong. If one is scum so is the other imo.

Don't really see a reason to wagon inactive slots (drixx & eth0s). Drixx has no reason to lurk and eth0s is inactive in both of his games.

VOTE: oxy

And here's the punchline. You said you would take a back sit and watch how the game goes on, but you vote for Oxy instead. You were asked to give a readlist, and maybe you felt the pressure to place a vote to suit your narrative, but you said a few posts ago that you had to sort your reads again. Also, as I said in my post above, the timing for you placing the vote is perfect: I ceased my case on {Oxy, ofrhz} and you take it back to the game with no further explanation. You never talked about it, you never said anything at all about my case. I would have understood you voting Oxy, but bringing up ofrhz into the equation is opportunistic.

As I have said I wanted to watch for some time I have got engaged by ofrhz and NSG. You have missed the post when I mentioned that 324.
You have dropped your case on Oxy in 320 I have voted Oxy in post 363. I don't see how it was perfect for me to bring it back when you stopped and went to town reading him, and nobody showed any interest in lynching him. Also my case on Oxy was based mostly on my previous expirences with him. Not the things you have dropped.
Again, I don't see why I have to first explain everything and then go to makig cases/interacting with people. I didn't plan on making case on ofrhz on his own, the case on oxy has been made next day when I got back to the thread. Up to this point I have been realy confused about how to read Oxy, at that point I have made my mind.
You call bringing ofrhz into equation opportunistic, I call it a side effect to tunneling Oxy.
I agree that to vote might have been somehow premature but I have made my mind at that time about making case for oxy. I didn't explain it further because I wasn't thinking of making big announcemnt of the case I was about to make. I wanted to leave readlist for NSG because she asked, that was the readlist.
I engage you about one thing after you have dropped your case on Oxy, you said you would get back to it but you never did. I didn't bought it up again, because knowing your opinion on that matter wasn't really that important to me.

[Scioness Sajj]

488 - I have voted Oxy and said I'm scumreading him before you all have went into lynching lurkers. So it was a moment when nobody was actively considering Oxy as scum.

I considered Oxy scum even before replacing in; I stated that before.

Yeah, you did by you've dropped before I made my case. I don't see why it matters what you thought before the game in the context on me making case on Oxy.

[Scioness Sajj]

Quote n°2: read my post on context: she was saying that there was no reason to go back to Oxy, and I said that the timing for going back was perfect, because she voted Oxy long time ago, but you recently started to suspect him and it's a good time to explain her read.

Skitter answered it I belive but again. My last post that day was readlist, then I have went to do other things and went to sleep. I got back to the thread next day, I have read what you have wrote in the meantime I commented on it I talked a little with Ruru and went back to things went I have left them. I have answered ofrhz, I have also answered skitter and made a case that I just kept in the same post.

When I posted my vote I didn't know what would happen that night and who would became suspicous of him and who wouldn't. You say it here like I had no other choice then to explain my case, but I had to do it anyways, doesn't matter my alignment because I have post my vote ealier and people would start asking at some point if I weren't to deliver. Skitter already asked when I was away.

[Scioness Sajj]

btw scum!me has virtually no reason to go back to oxy now, when people has moved on and are about to lynch lurkers. The only reason for scum!me to push back now would be if you were about to lynch my scum mate but that would mean second scum is in {drixxx, eth0s} but I'd gain towncred from bussing then getting myself into the spotlight for refusing to lynch a lurker.

scum!me would also benefit more from having a scum lean on ruru and me not doing it would me that ruru is scum. but then scum me would have no reason to go back to mislynching oxy isntead of going with a luker lynch.

And I have no problems with your posts in 477 and 479, but this one is terrible. Not only because the self awareness, but because you've been reading the thread, and you know that going back to Oxy RIGHT NOW is the best timing for doing it, since skitter stopped voting Drixx and started to have suspicions on Oxy's motivations. So you building a case on Oxy now is well-timed and a great scum strategy.

Almost missed this.
I have sort of answered this before I think. This post was prompt by Oxy's comments after I have made my case but I don't think it matters that much.
I still don't understand why me or anybody in this situation would go for forcing a mislynch.
I didn't really make a case it was there all the time, the core of things was the things I was wondering about before. Ealier I had the town lean on him because of my rationale, but my rationale was proved wrong.

[Scioness Sajj]

@scioness sajj I promised not to engage you, so please feel free to ignore this. I'm hoping we're past that, but I understand if we're not.

Now that I'm town reading you, I'd really like an updated read list from you.

Nah, it's fine, you can talk to me.

I'm not fully caught up like almost not at all on what has been posted today but:

eth0s - saw his readlist and I agree with most of it, didn't really see more so null
ruru - she was scummy townie and she still is
ofrhz - I feel like we will just keep miscommunicating, so I will porb get better read on him from seeing him talk to other, townlean
pin - I can understand why he is townreading you from the things he has explained to me recently. I don't understand why he has unvoted you because of your skitter read that was one of points where I have gained my confidence in you being scum. I also don't understand why he got into the game with it has to be 'tvs' and it seems he never reconsidered it. Like he isn't allowing himself to not scumread on of us. It gives a decisive in his indecisive vibe. His case on me seems sort of shaky. Like some of the things he mentioned feel taken out of context and brought up again even though they have been answered (espeically the early game things) other points I can understand. The case is really uneven? I don't know I want to see more from him and his readlist
oxy - I still don't understand why you didn't push me when I went into 'me or you'. Like you have stopped tunneling me for 'ate' after 'me or you' and not before for 'ate' when I said I'd never play with you if you are town. And imo the 'ate' from before my case was stronger than the 'ate' after. So idk little mysteries, I will probably try to figure out later in the game if needed. But 504 feels genuine. Townlean, but this one will probably be a jumpy read untill I sort you again.
NSG - I really need her to play the game, null
skitter - she was left alone in this game with three new players for a week. She put a lot of her focus on trying to understand us/explain things but I can't see it as her passing by with no content or trying ate us. have not read her back and forth with you yet. townlean.
drixx - same as NSG

[Scioness Sajj]

I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.

I mean lurking has been talked about this game. the pressure votes were only on eth0s and drixx, so the two people that we had the least info that could sustain active lurking as reasoning.

eth0s - lack or content(?) = scummy -> can be lurking
Drixx - vague posts = scummy -> can be lurking
NSG - posted very few things, is doing other stuff on the site, didn't catch up just yet even though she said she was - got a townread from pin and that's about it?

[Scioness Sajj]

Even though she said she has been instead of she said she was

[Scioness Sajj]

I understand that people are more interested in voting people they found scummy but hmm inactivity seemed to be main reason for the wagon yet the wagon on drixx with no proof for game reasons inactivity was build so this makes me think there was actually intent to lynch and not pressure? Opportunistic mislynch?
I don't know if this makes sense, I'm thinking

[Scioness Sajj]

I meant what I'm saying makes sense it just may not be clear what I'm talking about and needs some facts checking

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm only catching up rereading on phone today. Posts tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

Sajj, what do you look for when you scumhunt? If this question is too direct, can you just explain what a "scummy town read" (i.e. your read on ruru) means?

Also why aren't you voting for nsg? A wagon's gotta start somewhere.

I'm not voting for NSG because I think it is too late to make that wagon now, solely on activity reasons. We have four days left and people (me included) will be less present because of holidays. Wagon on somebody to gain information right now will only create chaos. I doubt that even if NSG got here and posted more content any of it would be incriminating enough for me or anybody to feel good about lynching her - she is null for me for lack of information and I think she is good player and if she was scum she wouldn’t scum claim or just slip because of a wagon like that.
Wagoning NSG day 2? sure. Wagoning her now? Unnecessary distraction that may get us into last minute lynch this day phase.

Scummy townie in context of Ruru - I believe what makes her look scummy is her experience playing slightly different mafia games before. E.g. in games with shorter days lurking can be a scumtell. I think her focus on lurkers comes from prev experience, not her having scum motivation. Her saying that she would vote me because of not answering questions fits the bill. I think not answering questions can be more of a scum tell in shorter games then it can be here. She goes with those things because that’s how she knows how to play mafia, it just doesn’t translate into this kind of game well.
Things like that stand out and don’t fit in how I understand the game but I don’t think she is doing them because she has scum motivation to play like that. She’s just in the process of learning/adjusting.

Scumhunting - I guess you can sum it up as consistency in a playstyle being a towntell. I’m asking ‘why’ questions a lot because it gives me an idea what people were thinking when they said what they said. That way I can find patterns of behaviour in their playstyle. When somebody is playing scum they have to worry to be seen as town and finding scummy enough people to mislynch. Scum trying to appear townie will have to go against appearing townie to get people lynched. If you are playing town you worry about finding scum way more more than being mislynched.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 682, Scioness Sajj wrote:
I have been reading about drixx's wagon and it really bothers me that nobody considered wagoning NSG for pressure.
She has been catching up for about four days at that time, has rather low content posts and been on site doing other things.


Drixx's last pair of posts at the time were pretty questionable (and still are). I think he's acted scummier than NSG, and has been in the game for longer, so I don't see the problem with the choice. And at this point I feel like any credible threat is almost completely gone after all the discussion.

Yes, he did. But what would he gain from making few suspicous posts and disappearing? Do you think things he has posted are scumtells or slips? What in game reasons did he have to lurk?
I see the wagon being build from two parts - for pressure and to lynch.
Ofrhz and skitter voted him becuase they wanted to hear answers to things they didn't understand, that makes perfect sense to me. You and Oxy voted with what looks like intention to lynch. And problems start here. Intention to lynch on a low info wagon makes me think of intention of a mislynch. You both have jumped on 'we demand answers!' wagon with 'he's scummy enough to die!' reasoning with added argument 'but nobody is stupid enough to hammer'.
It bothers me. I need to check who said what and how it played out again.

[Scioness Sajj]

In post 692, ofrhz wrote:
Also I don't remember why I was townleaning ruru earlier. I think she's now trying too hard to scumread skitter, a la 632 and 626.

VOTE: ruru


I guess that's one reason to vote on someone...

Do you understand why ofrhz is scumreading you? Do you agree?

[Scioness Sajj]

Ruru, do you scum read ofrhz?

(on phone more later)

[Scioness Sajj]

His posts seemed intended to generate confusion and the 2nd post felt like he was intentionally not clarifying. I think that's more scummy than towny especially when we're starting to approach end of day, there were multiple lurkers, and it seems like there's a decent chance we'll be scrambling at the last minute to agree on a day 1 lynch.

I feel like it's not nearly scummy enough to get scum!Drixx lynched regardless, plus since it's an isolated couple posts rather than trolling throughout the thread, he can always say it was a reaction test whether or not that was his motivation. (eth0s also did a reaction test that I scumread while he was posting less; the difference is that his didn't actively generate confusion which makes it not scummy to me in retrospect.) So yes, I think scum!Drixx has something to gain from it, and town has something to gain by Drixx explaining himself, regardless of his alignment.

What reasons would scum!drixx have to be scummy like that? The only reason I can think of is if his scum mate was being strongly scumread at that time and said scum mate had bigger value than Drixx.
In the first part you agree it was scummy enough to warrant a lynch. In the second part you say it wasn't at first but then in last sentence you say he was scummy enough to get lynched. Can you tell me what you were thinking when placing naked vote on Drixx?

The play that could have been made, but wasn't, depends on players collectively bluffing without revealing that they are bluffing.

What makes you sure it was not the case? What players could have to be collectively bluffing?

[Scioness Sajj]

Thanks for the extantion Assemblerotws!

@ofrhz
613 - yeah I believe you know what I'm talking about (it's not much of a problem, I just had to f+ctrl 'sorry'. the page where the post you quoted was commented in scum pt by me was page 10.) if I missed something you want answered lmk

I think I will answer Eth0s before Pin (sorry, Pin! I will get to you today eventually). I have stronger townleans on ofrhz and skitter for that lynch.

[Scioness Sajj]

@ofrhz I don't know, I'm waiting on explanation for the vote. I have no clue what she is talking about with the bluff thing and I didn't like her initial response to your vote, admitting she doesn't know also bothers me.

[Scioness Sajj]

It was a random vote with the added benefit that *if* he is lurking and not just AFK, that it might get him to talk. That purpose has already been somewhat derailed but now we have new information anyway.

ofrhz's "I don’t think lurking is a scum tell" is by far the scummiest thing I've seen so far.

Alright, thanks for the answers!
UNVOTE: ruru

why do you go from asking someone why they aren't participating in rvs to not placing a vote on anyone?

Ruru's first post pinged me, so I never really placed an rvs vote. I don't see how one is connected with another.

@oxy, so you have put all this effort in and came out with nothing because?

or that you're being kinda difficult with her but much more open with me.

I think he was tunneling me (I felt tunneled) and that's were his unwillingness to talk to me came from.

I actually think this is a fairly interesting bit of info tbh. If someone believes someone to be a stronger player, they'll read them differently than if they think they're a weaker player; the perceived capability of a player often affects the read.

Alright I understnad that, but how is it going to help eth0s solve the game? Is this meta related?

why are you so concerned about the question I asked drixx?? it's honestly just to hear something IC'ish from the IC and if I like it I may or may not sheep it. To me, when town, this game is all about being the detective or following a better one. You either make and publish the best or most convincing reads, or you follow the ones that sound good. So why is it so bad for me to ask someone more knowledgeable then me for info?

I asked because I didn't understand, skitter answered for you, but it didn't fully explain your post to me, so I asked again. I didn't like it at first because it seemed like you asked about something that was answered in the same post.

[Scioness Sajj]

1. First: I was trying to simplify as much as I could why Oxy was tunneling you so hard, but yeah of course it's not as simple as that. And yeah, I think he thought he was doing a great job putting you on top of mind of everyone by posting about you from time to time, so he leading a lynch was possible.

2. By less information I mean that, at the time you made the case on Oxy, you didn't know the alignment of anyone but yourself on the game; that's what I mean with ex post analysis. People would read your case knowing for sure that Oxy was town and try to debunk your case and maybe scumread you for it, but that would be unfair because the case is good. And no, when I said I liked your case I meant that, no matter your alignment, it's well constructed. I mean, if you are town, it's a great case and I would totally buy it, and if you're scum, you did a great job to drive a mislynch. I believe the latter because I started scumreading you before the case. Having good or bad reads is NAI from my point of view.

About the bolded: yes, it's biased, that's what I meant. From my point of view, Oxy is town, so seeing someone so convinced that Oxy is scum is weird for me, because one of us has to be wrong. But as I said, I'm not scumreading you for that, so no, town doesn't has to have the same reads, it only drew my attention that someone could be reading the game in such a different way.

Last: no need to thank me, I'm glad that you aren't having a bad time as I thought you were!

p-edit: shit, ninjaed to the death. @Scioness this was a reply to your post!!

1. If he was so sure I had to be scum, why he never picked it up again. And why he was willing to lynch any lurker? If he thought I was one scum then he should have looked for another and not 'whoever my townblock wants to lynch'? I think town!oxy, at that point, should have either go with lynching me if he couldn't find associatives in lukers. Also shouldn't you be conf town to him after you have dropped his scum read on me?
2. I don't understand your pov in this. If I'm scum in your eyes than my case on Oxy was made with all alignment informations because I was pushing for mislynch.

@Scioness:
I made my case on you by ISOing you, maybe that's why my commentary is out of context or was already answered. First off, I totally misrepped your "scumhunting" post, so I take that back. I thought you were saying you were applying a new strategy to scumhunt, not that this was literally your first game being town.

1. I mean, that still is up to WIFOM, but is not what I thought you were saying, sorry!

This also means that my post about your first readlist was wrong, because again, I thought you were doing a scumhunting method and that made no sense with a readlist without scums lol.

2. About ruru's reaction test: yeah you don't have to explain everything, but if you are doing a reaction test, I would hope to know about the results at sometime?

But as I said, you made sense. Now, a reaction test can be made by town or scum, so this doesn't tell me much
I do think that almost all the inconsistencies I saw from you were misrepped because of a stupidity of mine.

The thing is, I'm way better at townhunting that scumhunting, so I'm pretty sure about my townreads (ofrhz, eth0s and even Oxy who has been doing some weird posts lately), so by PoE I still believe you are a good lynch from my point of view. At this point, when I get too many townreads, my best course of action is to worry that my townreads don't get lynched instead of worrying who could be scum; I have three townreads and a townlean (skitter), two nulls because of lack of content but I'd say that NSG could be town because she's acting like our last game together, and ruru and you who I don't see as town at this moment. That means that, even if my cases are shit (which usually are), my townreads are usually good, so you and ruru are my best bets for today.

1. Don't understand how is it wifom.
2. It was explained.

Now, about "building a really good case on it", I think that you missed some essential posts about this:

I gave a townread on Oxy long time ago because his read on skitter was not what I was expecting from scum!Oxy, because he had two "conf!towns" and I was watching carefully for his next move: I thought he would give a scumlean or scumread to someone because it would suit his narrative as being the townleader but in reality leading town to mislynches. But he instead townread skitter, and having too many townreads on early game is not an optimal strategy for scum.

At that point of the game I thought Oxy was being very meticulous, so if Oxy was scum, I don't believe he would have gave skitter a townread. I read the whole thread after that, but believing Oxy was town instead of scum, and it made sense to me. So yes, I still thought that Oxy's and Scioness' 1v1 was a TvS, but now believing that Oxy is town, I started to think Scioness was the scum.

By the time Oxy has explained his townread on skitter to you, he already had her as townlean, though.
Also, what do you think of Oxy having such in-depth townread on skitter and his really meh case on me?
Still wanna know what was so good about my timing with my case on Oxy, I think you either didn't answer or forgot?

[Scioness Sajj]

I was thinking that Oxy's plan makes sense, and regardless of his alignment, the plan itself is pro-town for at least 23 hours, so there is no reason not to go along with it.

Didn't you have a townlean on Oxy? Have you considered his plan as being potentially coming from scum?

I'm not sure I understand the first question. For the second question, the bluff is that town is willing to carry through with the lynch.

You've said that my idea of what has happen could be possible but wasn't because for it to work it would need people to bluff.
1. Why are you so sure it was not the case?
2. Theoretically, who would have to be bluffing for my plan to work?
----
Ruru, do you think you have been scummy enough for ofrhz to vote you?

[Scioness Sajj]

This NSG vote is so random.

[Scioness Sajj]

Nono, I meant my idea (and I think Oxy's) of the Drixx wagon required people to bluff.

What actually was your idea? Because you have answered that under a quote of my interpretation and I do't know what one has to do with another?

[Scioness Sajj]

I think there is something as to why ruru votes the way she does, but idk. It's like she has a checklist or something.

[Scioness Sajj]

You didn't really say much in those post so not really. I'm not interested in lynching you today and would rather talk when you fully catch up.

[Scioness Sajj]

You gave a readlist with explanation, it is pretty generic and lacks substance. I don't see a reason to engage on your opinions.

I don't know, how to answer second question without sounding mean so let's assume I'm not being mean. I think when you fully catch up you will start playing the game and stop active lurking.

[Scioness Sajj]

More than a readlist with a towntell, a ping, townreads just becuase, a tinfoil hat and nulls becuase 'those people can't be trusted'.

[Scioness Sajj]

I think there is something as to why ruru votes the way she does, but idk. It's like she has a checklist or something.

What I mean by this is that she votes (a lurker?) when she is asked to or if somebody votes her. Two of those votes (eth0s and nsg) seem defensive and the one on Drixx, I don't know. I didn't like that wagon at all and I feel like I might be putting too much attention into it. I'm not sure if the votes mean anything, I have to think about it more.

I will be unavailable tomorrow, wednesday and maybe monday. I will try to check from phone but no promises.
Happy holidays, guys!

[Scioness Sajj]

Nono, I meant my idea (and I think Oxy's) of the Drixx wagon required people to bluff.

What actually was your idea? Because you have answered that under a quote of my interpretation and I do't know what one has to do with another?

Drixx thinks he might actually get lynched => Drixx produces some better content for us to evaluate and explains his earlier posts

Alrght, I understand that. You wanted to put pressure on Drixx and you believe Oxy did, too. Who had to be bluffing and what is that bluffing about?
You've forgot to explain how my interpretation of the events connects with your idea of what you were doing at that time.

----
Current VC concerns me a little, I'm still waiting for answers from Pin and his case on Drixx. I see we will also have a replacement, will it affect the day deadline or not?

Ruru's naked vote on Drixx - I wouldn't consider it a townslip at all. Her reason to unvote for the first time in the game was that she wasn't comfortable leaving a vote overnight and there was no wagon on ofrhz iirc. Voting people and putting them at L-1 has been also talked about. I believe she later said she thought that nobody was stupid enough to hammer Drixx as reasoning for her vote. She knew what she was doing she just didn’t find it necessary to announce L-1. As for argument that the other scum could have told her that she should ‘L-1’ that would require: them talking about it in scum pt, being active at the same time, her partner to be active at all in the game. And that’s nothing we can have a proof of.
Since she has voted 20 minutes after she was asked to I believe it was her independent decision to vote the way she did. Be it from scum!ruru or town!ruru.

skitter’s unvote - I don’t understand why people are putting so much attention into it. When voting she has mentioned that she wasn’t up for lynching Drixx. And Oxy’s intention are anything but clear in this game, imo. Add to it that the votes after skitter’s appeared in the span of 20 minutes and went with ‘if you don’t do what we like, we will lynch you’.
I also don’t understand why the idea of drixx + skitter as a scumteam has been dropped so fast. I think it is still possible, unlikely but possible. I think that should be used as an argument against her and not her reaction in itself since that could be either.

NSG - I don’t really like 733 on it’s own. She did seem like she was trying to sort me in that little convo we had but I don’t understand why she was asking particularly about my opinions on her readlist, since I have explained a page ealier why I’m not interested in her for the rest of D1. She is still pretty null for me, I want to see her play the game.

I will vote with explanation later today or early tomorrow. I think that's it.

[Scioness Sajj]

I will vote with explanation later today or early tomorrow. I think that's it.

Why are you so hesitant to drop a vote?

I have no clue why you read that as me being hesitant. I have made my mind and I want to drop the vote with a case, this is me making an announcement that should give you an idea on what to expect from me.

[Scioness Sajj]

I would also like to see more content from NSG.

I don't see anywhere better to place my vote right now.

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not advocating for a quick lynch, a lolhammer, someone to post intent to hammer, or NSG to feel even minor agita as a result of these votes. In fact, it might be better for the game if we just remove the voting mechanism entirely.~~~~~~

VOTE: NSG

Why are you votng your null read over your scumlean Drixx and possible scum!skitter?

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright, the holidays are official over for me now.

I'm sorry NSG, didn't mean to upset you. Like I have said in 695, I didn't want to engage with you mostly because I have gave all less active player a pass to day 2. I was, still am, focused on getting the best lynch for today. If you are not giving me fresh new pov with your reads than I'm not really interested. Eth0s and Drixx promised content and I was waiting for that, I thought that engaging you on things that read null to me would only add to confusion and result in last minute lynch.

Also, if you tell me how not to post walls I will stop. It feels like if I don't post walls people don't understand what I am saying so idk

somebody please teach me english lol

[Scioness Sajj]

Drixx, are you writing explanation for those reaction tests you have posted ealier?

[Scioness Sajj]

I will vote with explanation later today or early tomorrow. I think that's it.

Why are you so hesitant to drop a vote?

I have no clue why you read that as me being hesitant. I have made my mind and I want to drop the vote with a case, this is me making an announcement that should give you an idea on what to expect from me.

1. You haven't voted since 522 which was 10 pages ago.
2. You can drop a vote and make the case later.
--> hesitant

1. I didn't becuase I didn't see a reason to vote anybody. 2. I could but I do like to make cases with votes, so I do so.
I have a vote and I used it as I see fit. Still don't see how that's hesitant on my part.

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright, my bad. I remember you saying that you wanted to see reactions to those posts and would explain when you catch up with the game, hence reaction tests.

Just wanted to know if you are busy catching up/doing other things. I'm peacfully engaging you, please answer.

[Scioness Sajj]

so, for example, who's your top scumread right now? from 762 i get that you're waiting to place a vote with your case on someone – why delay specifically for something so composed as opposed to just sharing your thoughts?

I would like to lynch ruru today. I think it's more efficient for me and everybody to just post my case and start talking with people. I'm also pretty convinced that I want to vote her today but she isn't really anybody's pick so I will have to convince people.

(would you actually like compositional advice? i started typing some but i don't want to come across as condescending)

Sure, communication is part of the game. You can give me some pointers here or after the game or whenever you feel like. I'm open to all feedback.

I think part of the problem is that I don't write in order. Sometimes I start by writing a sentence from the middle, sometimes I have the end of the message before anything else. But that's how I write in both languages (and have about the same problem when writing in both). Also, I'm a lot more focused on getting answers than being understood and I think it's showing.

[Scioness Sajj]

I would also like to see more content from NSG.

I don't see anywhere better to place my vote right now.

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not advocating for a quick lynch, a lolhammer, someone to post intent to hammer, or NSG to feel even minor agita as a result of these votes. In fact, it might be better for the game if we just remove the voting mechanism entirely.~~~~~~

VOTE: NSG

Why are you votng your null read over your scumlean Drixx and possible scum!skitter?

I think we're going to get another extension because we're about to need a replacement for eth0s. With the extra time, I want to see more content from NSG. I said that with the vote.

Well, you didn't ask if we will get another extension and mod didn't even start looking for a replacement. That's a big assumption.

It looked to me like you have jumped onto a counter wagon, because you were afraid you are about to get lynched and people were looking into NSG.

[Scioness Sajj]

VOTE: Ruru

Her naked vote on Drixx stands out. It was pretty opportunistic to me and I find her reasoning rather weak in comparison to all her other posts. I have talked about it ealier, I can add more if needed.

I didn’t like her reaction to ofrhz’s vote. She said she didn’t understand the vote 699 and she doesn’t think she has been acting scummy 730 but it didn’t change her read on ofrhz 705 nor did she ask why he voted her.

She voted somebody else/made a case after somebody voted her. 260 , 727. Trying to move attention somewhere else.

She has changed her opinion on why she was pushing skitter. First she was suspicious because of the fast unvote 609, later she said that it was not the unvote but skitter misunderstanding the situation727.

She talked about skitter not playing optimally as scum 609 and made in depth analysis of Oxy’s post 507. Yet she only votes lurkers for pretty on the surface level scummy reasons.

Her vote on NSG gave me all kinds of bad vibes. I don’t know how ruru missed NSG’s read on Oxy and NSG convo with ofrhz about that vote. I also don’t like Ruru’s reasoning from later posts:

“Yes, I think it's a bit in the "wow, that sucks" category and I feel like a town player who believes that something is hurting her win% would be more motivated to understand why things are that way and how to improve the situation.”
“NSG first tried to get others to vote in 716. After that, she jumped on the Oxy wagon herself. Her timing seems opportunistic to me.”

skitter is V/LA, and I don't feel like voting on her would be that productive right now anyway because she already gave a defense and it doesn't make sense to lynch anyone before hearing more from Drixx/NSG.

We were four days away from the deadline at that time. In 708 (two days before 747) Drixx promised he would most likely made more posts that night, he didn’t.
She was okay putting Drixx at L-1 earlier in the game when we are close to end of the day, it is totally fine for her to wait for Drixx. That’s stalling.

I don’t like 761.
Ruru quotes ofrhz’s part of post that was address to everybody, but mentioned her, and uses it as an excuse to defend Oxy and give another explanation of her vote on NSG.
She also mentions that we

still

have around three more days.
From her readlist - Drixx is apparently less suspicious now then he was before even though he didn’t post anything since 708 - I think she put him higher because of people’s reaction to her vote earlier.

About my convo with her on the last pages.
I have actually misunderstood her with one part. I forgot that I have explained to her again my thoughts of that wagon so I thought that she addressed it on her own.
Still from what I have understood - Ruru was voting Drixx for both pressure and lynch and she believed that people would be there in time to unvote if Drixx made a towny post.
Ruru didn’t really tell me anything that makes me question my first analysis of that wagon.

[Scioness Sajj]

@sajj You're still scumreading me, right? How likely is it that Ruru + Oxy are the exact scum team?

I'm not sure where I would put you if I had to make a readlist tbh. 504 is a turning point for me, depending on what you post I lean one way or another.
Earlier, you have posted some things that make me believe in your ate more. But then you disappeared from the game and came back with vote on NSG. I wouldn’t scum read you for trying to save yourself but I didn’t like your answer.
817 also makes me doubt you more again, because if that’s spot on where was your actually good push on me?

I don’t know how likely it is. There is a lot of connections between you and her, but my read comes from her posts alone. Her reaction to ofrhz’s vote pinged me, I looked more into that wagon and I started paying more attention to her.
I’m not interested in wifoming team possibilities right now. I will think about it after she flips.

If I had to compromise I'd vote you over {Drixx, NSG, Eth0s, skitter, ofrhz}. I’d consider voting Pin if somebody was to make a good case (I didn’t like his point about eth0s) but I want to see Ruru flip.

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm referring to Pin's explanation about his eth0s read.

[Scioness Sajj]

If lynch order isn't clear: ruru > oxy > pin > drixx, eth0s, nsg > skitter > ofrhz.

[Scioness Sajj]

I have thought about it some more and ruru+you is likely because of connection, but scum ruru connecting herself to you because she had made that decision on her own is also likely. It can also be scum ploy. There is nothing that makes either of those possibilities unlikely and I lack information to measure which of those has higher probability than others.

I have looked for possible scum mate for you earlier and it was bad, biased idea that created a lot of confusion and mostly wasted time. Is oxy+ofrhz possible? Yeah it is, but you with other people could also be possible and betting on one of those and disregarding others because there are little things that could connect you both isn't good way to scum hunt for me.

[Scioness Sajj]

@pin yeah that one. I also need you to answer my posts to you when you will have time. If you will explain those things I'm asking for it will be easier for me to sort you.

[Scioness Sajj]

One post, sorry. 721 I don't think you have answered that one.

[Scioness Sajj]

About your after replacement eth0s read. I wish you didn't mention that pr part. Not really scum reading you for it just eh.

[Scioness Sajj]

844 Pin
I have been asking so much becuase a lot of your conclusions appear unclear to me. E.g. you said that I have made my case on Oxy without all information because I didn't know anybody's alignemnt in the game at that time.
And that's true becuase I don't but if you were scumreading me I don't think that's a conclusion you would make.

He could have been acting the way he did because of being pr and have to replace because of lack of time, I guess. I mean I get why you said that but I just wish you could have leave the pr part out.

I was asking you questions because I didn't understand where your conclusion came from. Knowing why you think the way you do would make it easier for me to get a read. At the time I have also been talking with other players, so I wasn't really focused on you.

Why are you voting Skitter over Ruru? What do you think of my case on Ruru?

[Scioness Sajj]

NSG town, oxy town, ethos town, i'm sheeping NSG on her pintu read, so we're doing this
VOTE: Scioness
from skimming ethos's ISO (i was looking for stuff on oxy and it was all bad) i got the impression that scioness has largely been ignored as a slot
she has a large scumrange (aka doesn't get wagoned as scum) so that's concerning as fuck

dude
I have been derptunneled for a week (becuase of that game), three players have read my first game before this one started, another three has read that game becuase of said tunnel and paranoia over me. I have been anything but ignored.

I have spent a lot of time explaning why it's bad lazy idea and is not fair to me. I'm tired talking about it and trying to defend myself.

I won't be here tomorrow, I believe ruru is scum. If you want to lynch me over that one game go ahead.

[Scioness Sajj]

@mathdino no, I'm aware you didn't read this game, that's why I've corrected you where you are wrong.

you've bought up the other game as an argument. I have had it and I'm not dealing with it anymore. that's it.

[Scioness Sajj]

Oxy 468 he also just jumped on counter wagon for pressure 797
Ruru 830, 850
Pin has recently voted skitter and he doesn't want to vote ruru because I'm his top scumread (by poe because oxy v me, couldn't be town for some reason). He also voted skitter because she has mantioned possible sfot claim posts from Oxy, when he himself just explained that he had town read on eth0s becuase he thought eth0s was scummy becuase he was pr investiagative 851 765
Skitter had sort of weird vote on NSG, but I think you have seen that already.

[Scioness Sajj]

Why is no lynch optimal?

[Scioness Sajj]

I couldn't think of a reason why it would be so I asked. Thanks.

[Scioness Sajj]

We are not lynching skitter. We will lynch skitter if she doesn't get nk by day three.

Couldn't find it in Google - what's exactly a scumrange?

[Scioness Sajj]

This vote is so bad though.

Thanks.

[Scioness Sajj]

Because?

[Scioness Sajj]

She is the most hard working person here and has been really objective.

You all wanna lynch her because she freaked out and unvoted. And she did that after she saw drixx wagon got to l-1 in 20 minutes.

I don't understand how can you say her reads are inaccurate when you have that bs scum lean on me and you are sheeping NSG.

[Scioness Sajj]

Ruru is more optimal lynch or Oxy or even me imo. People have the most polarizing opinions about us three I believe.

Drixx lynch would be low info lynch I think. That's also no good.

[Scioness Sajj]

Drixx - you have not really posted that much compared to other people. You have been scumread by almost everybody.

If you think that's a slip you know what to do.

[Scioness Sajj]

I have literally wanted to 1 v 1 Oxy so idk what you are taking about

[Scioness Sajj]

I have also called you out when you had that silly slips on me.

[Scioness Sajj]

Oh my god

[Scioness Sajj]

Let me know when you will figure out how to make your upcoming vote on me lamist enough, Oxy.

[Scioness Sajj]

Never said it's likely for you to be town or scum You were vote on for vague posts and inactivity. If you flip green there wouldn't be much to go off if you flip red that's good but I have seen nothing in game that made me think you are more likely either way.

You know, apparently I have already slipped three times in this game. What do you make of that?

[Scioness Sajj]

I have no clue what makes you think ruru is towny.

Like her no response to ofrhz vote is basically a scum claim for me.

[Scioness Sajj]

Why would town her not be interested in why her town read is suddenly scum reading her? She explained it as trying to generate discussion but she literally shrug it off.

Math. I'm on phone, quoted what?

[Scioness Sajj]

Math oh that one. The quote was in those posts I have posted for you earlier one of first points of my case.

[Scioness Sajj]

Her townread has just voted her. She doesn't understand why and she doesn't want to know. If she was town she would engage it head on like she did with a lot other things. If she is scum and don't want more attention she will shrug it off and hope it won't come up again.

[Scioness Sajj]

Or that sheeped vote on Drixx. Guess who did something like that in 1851? The only difference was that she straight out posted a naked vote and I had to be persuaded to hammer.

[Scioness Sajj]

I don't know if you don't think that I'm right then I can't lynch her alone.

[Scioness Sajj]

She had a long 1v1 with skitter over that unvote thing. She didn't vote skitter once even though the exchange didn't change her mind. Yet she voted NSG for three different reasons that in the end equal to a reaction test.
That's it, I will not speak of ruru till D2.

p.edit I thought you have read my ISO yeah, following a leader is perfect for newbscum.

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm back for a while.

drixx > skitter but lynch > no lynch

[Scioness Sajj]

we can lynch skitter, we don't know if we will be able to lynch anybody else because of claims

Drixx was here around this time yesterday but that's about it

[Scioness Sajj]

Have you both read the thread? We have 12 hours and only one VT claim, that makes lynching anybody but skitter nearly impossible.

Yeah, sure I'd prefer to lynch ruru today and see skitter go to the end game, but that's not really a thing right now.

[Scioness Sajj]

lynch > no lynch
vt lynch > no claim lynch

p.edit if I have to vote skitter I will, I hope drixx will get back and claim vt though

[Scioness Sajj]

wait why?

Drixx yesterday said we should vote in {skitter, drixx}, if he claims pr we don't lynch him if he is lying we have a scum pinned down?

[Scioness Sajj]

We have 12 hours left, we don't know if enough people will be there for any new wagon nor is it actually safe to wagon anybody in case they won't be here to claim and we hit pr.

So we lynch skitter or drixx or we don't lynch at all

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm here. Do I hammer now or do I intent first?

[Scioness Sajj]

Gotta go now, will hammer in 30 minutes I guess.

[Scioness Sajj]

Pretty unlikely Drixx will be here before deadline, though.

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright, nah. I'm not waiting.
VOTE: Drixxx

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm back for a while.

drixx > skitter but lynch > no lynch

we can lynch skitter, we don't know if we will be able to lynch anybody else because of claims

Drixx was here around this time yesterday but that's about it

Have you both read the thread? We have 12 hours and only one VT claim, that makes lynching anybody but skitter nearly impossible.

Yeah, sure I'd prefer to lynch ruru today and see skitter go to the end game, but that's not really a thing right now.

lynch > no lynch
vt lynch > no claim lynch

p.edit if I have to vote skitter I will, I hope drixx will get back and claim vt though

We have 12 hours left, we don't know if enough people will be there for any new wagon nor is it actually safe to wagon anybody in case they won't be here to claim and we hit pr.

So we lynch skitter or drixx or we don't lynch at all

[Scioness Sajj]

from my POV, I'm town, Math is town, skitter and Oxy are very likely town, so Scioness is the only one that could be scum. I'm kind of on the fence about Scioness, she was okay up until her "We must lynch skitter today" thought process which made no sense.

I would think town!SS would have preferred a no-lynch in general. She's saying Oxy and I are quite scummy and there's 834. So, if the first Drixx wagon was comprised of scum!Oxy and/or scum!ruru then why would she call Drixx a low info flip in 935? And then hammer him anyway despite not scumreading him. It doesn't add up to me.

Why would you even think that when I was first person to question Mathdino's no lynch idea? The rest of your arguement is ignoring that I couldn't wagon you alone and the time issue we had with the lynch that was talked about.

I didn't say I wasn't scumreading you anymore when I unvoted??? I just didn't think anyone else was paying attention to you, and there wasn't that much time left in the day. The votecount was scattered, I didn't think I was going to convince anyone to vote for you (which is why I was later so frustrated with scioness for waiting so long to vote for you, like wtf. I'm not sure if this is AI). if you are scum, Drixx and NSG were both viable scum partners (at the time).

You are impling here that you wanted people to scumread ruru with you but you never made a case on her or tried to convince people to vote ruru.
Also - why were you upset that my case on ruru went in so late when you have already said you stopped scumleaning on her? 778 you have unvoted ruru for a reason stated below skitter's quote or no reason given at all. 895 you said you are townleaning her.

She never answered 850 (or 1004) and I feel like it's pretty relevant to the game state considering she was leaving her vote on me and a last minute wagon even formed on me afterward

Not relevant to do game state, relevant to you. I left my vote there because I find you scummy, that's what I'm supposed to do when I think I have found scum, vote them.

I feel like you even engaging on my case is proof of you being a scum. You weren’t interested in finding out why ofrhz voted you, you barely bothered with him. But when I made a case on you you felt a need to defend yourself even though you thought the case was weak and made by confused town/scum. And now you are pushing the ‘I'm the victim narrative’.

The wagon on you formed because of your vote on skitter not my case.

[Scioness Sajj]

Gonna try looking from another angle. I was thinking that Math being targeted night 1 was odd. Like I had a feeling he wasn’t a PR based on how he took control of the game from the outset, and the only other reason to lynch him otherwise is his ability to game solve.

Who do you think should have been a nk then?

[Scioness Sajj]

NSG - I need you to tell me how strongly you believe in that towntell from Pintu. Also what do you think of skitter now?

Pintu - when you have a moment could you link me your scumgames/towngames? If it is inconvenient I will just look for them on my own.

[Scioness Sajj]

Yes I am. I will tell you who I think can't be in team with ruru that will be faster - NSG and Pintu.

[Scioness Sajj]

in orrhz and skitter cases there would be bussing yeah. and there is nothing that disconnects you from ruru.

[Scioness Sajj]

There is a lot of poe involved in my 'reads' right now.

NSG is about 85% confirmed to me by Mathdino's flip. I need to do some more reading on Pintu but my own read + NSG towntell make him close to jumping into conf/obv town category.

And rest of you is there becuase there is nothing that can make me sure you are town.

Like skitter is super towny on her own. I find her unvote to be towny but if I think about ruru's vote on drixx and that ruru vs skitter (voteless) then there is nothing I can think of that would disprove it being staged.
Ofrhz is also pretty towny on his own but his voting patterns on her are weird. Like he was dropping his votes from her really fast when he was scumreading her but also parked the vote on her for quite long time wihtout interacting with her.
And you know how I feel about you. You defending ruru and calling her obv!town still is like wifom.

[Scioness Sajj]

me: basically poe'd down possible scum teams (excluding Pintu and NSG)
ofrhz: hilariously desperate scum teams with ruru MUST BE SCUM

[Scioness Sajj]

Oxy - I don't know what details you want from the skitter/ruru quote.

ofrhz/ruru - his first vote on her was becuase of some rvs thing iirc and was parked there for long for no reason, then he reminded himself that he has no reason to townread her and voted again and dropped pretty fast becuase he wasn't scum reading her anymore.

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm back for a while.

drixx > skitter but lynch > no lynch

we can lynch skitter, we don't know if we will be able to lynch anybody else because of claims

Drixx was here around this time yesterday but that's about it

Have you both read the thread? We have 12 hours and only one VT claim, that makes lynching anybody but skitter nearly impossible.

Yeah, sure I'd prefer to lynch ruru today and see skitter go to the end game, but that's not really a thing right now.

lynch > no lynch
vt lynch > no claim lynch

p.edit if I have to vote skitter I will, I hope drixx will get back and claim vt though

We have 12 hours left, we don't know if enough people will be there for any new wagon nor is it actually safe to wagon anybody in case they won't be here to claim and we hit pr.

So we lynch skitter or drixx or we don't lynch at all

[Scioness Sajj]

Skitter - do you think we can win the game by poe at this point?

[Scioness Sajj]

because we are going nowhere in this gamestate and I don't think it can chnage tbf