Newbie 1890 - Game Over

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: SuperfluousNinja

If you're superfluous, why are you here?

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: Saudade
I too would like to know how to pronounce that

I'm Spartacus!

[Light Ethos]

What are your objectives in the early game? Question goes for Egix but really a question for everyone.

Haven't played many games of Mafia in this format with long days like this site has. So far, I've liked to read the thread, take it in, and poke at things that feel inconsistent to me. That's gotten me in trouble a few times, but in another Newbie game, it helped me almost find the scum team Day 1. Once I learn more about how the game flows I'll change my default approach to the early stages of Day 1.

[Light Ethos]

@Egix96: Those reasons for Mala coming off as town seem to include the idea that because Malakittens didn't bother to proof read her post, she's town. I don't think that's a good mindset to have, as it feels too similar to less attention to detail = town. As for the punctuation spam, players can have different styles.

I personally don't see a reason to read anyone as town leaning just yet.

[Light Ethos]

@Egix96

Are you normally this...analytical?

Is there something wrong with being analytical? I agree that right now, there isn't much of substance to look at, but when this thread has 10 pages or so of content, there will likely be plenty that will require careful consideration.

[Light Ethos]

2) I don't really believe in "tells" or provoking reactions, I believe in behaviors and provoking actions.

Thank you for the long post declaring your positions out in the open. What is the difference between provoking reactions and provoking actions?

[Light Ethos]

3) Pro-town/anti-town is not the same as towny/scummy. Pro-town behavior can be town-motivated or scum-motivated, as can anti-town behavior.

I agree with the idea that pro-town behavior can be scum-motivated. I can also think of an example of where anti-town behavior would not necessarily be scum-motivated.

When is anti-town behavior town-motivated?

4) Using your vote is inherently* pro-town. Having your vote in play, even if your reads are weak, is always* helpful, even if you're scum, because a) seeing how people are voting cuts through a lot of nonsense and b) withholding your vote means robbing town of your most potent weapon and literally the only one that actually catches scum.
* The exception, of course, is when voting would cause a premature lynch.

I actually just disagree here unless we have a semantic difference. Scum players can use their votes to create a fruitless wagon to change the topic of discussion. They can also hide in the middle of a wagon on a town player. Finally, voting for the sake of voting without giving much explanation for the vote cannot be pro-town. If you're town, that makes you look scummy when you do that, potentially wasting one if town's valuable Days.

I do agree that hammering without town being on more or less the same page is a bad course of action.

[Light Ethos]

I'm sorry if it's considered too early in the game to be making ISOs. I just wanted to answer Micc's question regarding why I unvoted Mala.

I thought your response to Micc came in a reasonable format. He wanted an answer, and you supported your answer even if I didn't agree with the conclusion.

[Light Ethos]

You can trust me I promise. I’m just a small cuddly person.

This was probably a joke, but I'll put it on record that I didn't like it.

I'll also go on record to say that while I didn't agree with all of it, I liked where Lafayette's Post 49 is coming from. Solid early town read for me. Scum here has a strong incentive to take advantage of newer players' propensity to see consensus on someone and vote without leaving room for discussion. Now nobody has an excuse to do that this game.

[Light Ethos]

Do you think it's a mistake for me to be open about how I play?

Absolutely not. Thank you for the answers.

[Light Ethos]

I just know most people who get that award tend to hate it because they are usually lynched early wise or it’s used as leverage

To be fair, this is a Newbie game. Wouldn't you expect this to be the place where that would make you a target, justified or not? That award says that you're more than just semi-experienced. The award obviously isn't alignment indicative, but it gives scum incentive to snuff you out early and gives town extra incentive to be vigilant to avoid being put behind if you're scum. It just says that you're a very good player.

[Light Ethos]

I am just a clueless townie who has no idea what he's doing.

I don't think a completely clueless townie would make that long analysis post as an answer to a question.

[Light Ethos]

Fortunately I randed town so I shouldn't really be too worried.

I don't like this sentence. Worried about what?

[Light Ethos]

I'll disagree with you on that, Micc. While yes, your beliefs about theory won't change from game to game, your willingness to go out and lay out the theory for Newbies likely would. Example: allowing a Newbie to hammer someone for you without announcing intent and then subtly directing town to a retaliation Lynch would be a good reason for scum to withhold that type of post. It's in town's interest to warn against that possibility.

Reads definitely can, should, and do change, but for now I read that post by Lafayette as coming from town more often than from scum.

[Light Ethos]

IMO, you repeatedly pointing out that you are town is not helping your cause. Why is a townie so eager to point out he's a townie? We aren't exactly at a point where that's a huge deal just yet; all the townies are still alive. This just feels weird.

VOTE: VOTE: Egix96

I agree with this 100%. It does feel weird. That and the statement earlier:

Fortunately I randed town so I shouldn't really be too worried.

Telling us that you are town isn't going to make it more believable. You should be more interested in looking for scum than convincing us that you are town.

VOTE: Egix96

[Light Ethos]

@Micc: I would make that warning when it's more relevant (someone is at L-1). I still stand by what I said. That post comes from town more often than from scum. I would like the IC to give that warning, but I don't feel it's incumbent on the IC or anyone to do so. It doesn't sit well with me that you chose this as your point to take issue with me with those rhetorical questions. I think it's hard to make the case that Lafayette's post comes from scum more often than from town or from both equally often.

[Light Ethos]

@Saudade: I get that it's your style and all, but you could interact with the game now that we're moving away from mindless RVS votes.

[Light Ethos]

@Micc: I considered what you posted in 87 before you posted it. If Lafayette has that as a template early post for each game, then I agree with you. I think that the benefit to town is greater than the benefit to scum. Town avoids wasting time or mislynching by potentially going after a Newbie for doing something that looks scummy. Scum gains a temporary town read from some players for only one member at a stage in the game where there is little to base opinions on. I still disagree with you, but I understand that I won't change your mind.

[Light Ethos]

I can see town making a note that Saudade is crumbing a power role. I don't see town outing him for doing so. What benefit to town is there in doing that? I really don't like that, and it feels like it was a scum move.

UNVOTE: Egix
VOTE: 2.7182818284590452353602874713527

L-1

Lafayette clearly outlined this in his earlier post, but I'll repeat it again here:

Allow discussion and announce intent before being the final vote if you choose to be the final vote.

[Light Ethos]

Do not hammer without discussion. Alpaca hasn't even joined the thread yet, and Saudade is calling to end the day.

[Light Ethos]

Wait... what?

[Light Ethos]

Egix, you're doing fine. You don't have to leave! Saudade just plays like that for better or for worse. It wasn't personal.
This game has not been a shitstorm, and e's decision to out Saudade isn't on you at all.

[Light Ethos]

I still have zero idea why Egix panicked and left. It's possible that he saw his partner get pressure and got scared. It's strange to me that a 22-year-old would go into full self-destruct mode without people having a train on him.

[Light Ethos]

I can see town making a note that Saudade is crumbing a power role. I don't see town outing him for doing so. What benefit to town is there in doing that? I really don't like that, and it feels like it was a scum move.

What benefit to scum is there in doing that?

I don't think there is inherent benefit to scum. I'm not going to outline how that choice by e helps scum though. It's possible that scum!Euler just made a mistake that a town player should never make, and I definitely do not want to give them strategy advice on how to it most effectively.

[Light Ethos]

Adding onto 143. Town should have the mindset that power roles are a valuable resource, not the mindset that it's most important to show that a town player is paying attention to everything in the thread. A post like Euler's that is curiously absent any concern for his safety feels scummy. I'm not extending a Newbie excuse to him because he is SE and should know better.

[Light Ethos]

I still have zero idea why Egix panicked and left. It's possible that he saw his partner get pressure and got scared. It's strange to me that a 22-year-old would go into full self-destruct mode without people having a train on him.

The self destruct is NAI imo. I have done both around his age as either alignment. You gotta consider everyone is different

I said that it is possible, and I stand by that. In a vacuum, I'm not reading that self-destruct as alignment indicative, just as you are not. However, I also don't think it says that Egix is town.

[Light Ethos]

I've had players direct comments at me that were actual personal attacks. I stand by what I said. He had two players come to his defense to talk him down, and he still threw a tantrum.

[Light Ethos]

It is, IMO, fairly obvious why newbie scum who already aroused suspicion in the first few pages would lose his cool.

Egix is my second scum candidate. The outburst by itself wasn't alignment indicative. I think that the outburst in combination with being primarily paranoid about looking like town instead of looking at other players critically is scummy. It's possible that Egix just lacks confidence as a personality trait, but until I see worse play stick out to me, I'm not going to just pass him that excuse.

[Light Ethos]

Okay, but if it happened to you, it’s still not okay. We don’t need to be doing this to the guy.

I don't think what I said was out of line. I didn't curse at him, nor did I insult his intelligence. He had complained that he was being treated like a child to Saudade and then blew up unprovoked like a child. I called him out for it. I would not have made that comment if he had not complained about the way Saudade addressed him. I'll let it go though.

[Light Ethos]

@Lafayette: You said you'd sleep on it. Now that you have, what do you think of e's decision?

I do agree with you that this game feels really weird.

[Light Ethos]

Laf, whats the one sentence case against mala here?

My one sentence case would be "It's post 157, your vote is still from RVS, and you don't seem interested in looking for reads despite clearly being experienced."

What's yours Lafayette?

[Light Ethos]

Noted.

[Light Ethos]

I have to be up in five hours for an 13 hour shift

Rest well. I hope it goes well for you.

if you think I claimed PR what sort of town mindset did you have to out me to the scum like this

Obviously the post was a joke. "Wink wink"? Does that not imply that I was not being serious at all?

If it's a joke, I don't find it to be an acceptable joke to make. That joke has a real cost to town, and I think that a real town member would value their power roles enough not to translate a crumb to everyone. Your first post back contains no acknowledgment of the possible negative consequences of your action. Instead, your response amounts to little more than "It's just a joke, so it doesn't matter." Did you not believe that Saudade was actually crumbing in that post?

[Light Ethos]

I think if you consider 2.7's site activity outside of this game you can make a case for him doing the same things you're pushing mala for. Except mala has actually stated some opinions that matter and 2.7 hasn't really done that.

This is why I'm not pushing Malakittens as second scum. I can see some reasons why she could be, but she has stated that she wants 2.718's full response which should come in the next few days.

[Light Ethos]

I'd also like to hear what alpaca has to say about this game. Haven't seen a post yet.

[Light Ethos]

@alpaca: Welcome to the thread. I've played with Saudade before. That's kinda just how he plays, for better or worse. What are your reads so far?

[Light Ethos]

4. I know what this (L-1, or at least it was) is all about. I know that you are supposed to react to things on flimsy evidence and get pressure wagons. But I do not think I have ever seen it happen this early in the day..

Does this make it unjustified to you? Would you rather us waste time by not giving after something significant that should never come from town?

[Light Ethos]

@Micc: Who other than 2.718 isn't null to you?

[Light Ethos]

Egix slot is strong Town

Why?

[Light Ethos]

I'm placing bets on you or Ethos. Didn't like your 136 or Ethos's 143 & 144.

What's your problem with the two posts of mine you linked?

[Light Ethos]

If there's scum off the wagon I think it's more likely Alpaca or e.

Assuming you're taking about the wagon on 2.718: Why Alpaca? Why would scum bus e so soon?

[Light Ethos]

@Lafayette: Are you just doing process of elimination, or how are you coming to these conclusions?

[Light Ethos]

On 143: I'm not going to give free strategic advice to scum. It's reasonable for me not to want to publicly post an actionable way that scum can use the public disclosure of a power role to all town players. I can think of one. I'm sure that you could too if you thought about it. It's not my job to do strategic planning for the scum team. Let them do it themselves.

144 is a separate point that I made in a separate post. Regardless of whether e's choice is inherently scum motivated, it should never come from town. I find it hard to believe that town! Lafayette would take issue with 144 at all. Do you think that e's action is harmless to town?

[Light Ethos]

Bus? Who would be busing in this situation?

If scum is on the wagon for red!e, they are bussing e. Nothing e has done this game has shown town motivation. I don't think it's fair to assume as you are that e is town.

[Light Ethos]

Alpaca because I don't have him sorted as town yet.

What did you think of the read list alpaca provided?

[Light Ethos]

Wait. What?

What confused you?
Currently there is a wagon on e.
If e is scum and if another scum player is on the wagon, then the other scum player is bussing e.
You are assuming that e is town.
e has not shown town motivation.
Your assumption is not valid.

[Light Ethos]

@Lafayette: Thank you for the answers. The bussing comment was more along the lines of saying that to me, if e is scum, it's unlikely that there set of four voting him have scum in it. However that's not a firm read I have.

I do lean toward e being scum. I'll leave room for green!e making an unintentionally harmful joke, as all players can make mistakes. For me, that's an egregious mistake to make for an experienced player, and it's accompanied by e not having showing much concern for scum hunting. We'll see if that changes in the next few days.

[Light Ethos]

Your vote is still on Malakittens. Do you still think she's scum?

[Light Ethos]

If he was scum he would have gotten anxious and self destructed in the mafia thread not here. It’s also pretty clear he wasn’t being coached.

What if he self-destructed in both?

You’re essentially arguing that his illogical behavior almost certainly followed a logical pattern. To me, the location of where he freaked out is far less interesting than the fact that he did in the first place.

Imo if he self destructed in both id say look for his partner in someone who hasn’t been truely active in that ascpet. I don’t see him blowing up on someone who’s active and could have talked him Off the ledge

Yes, this is another reason why Egix + e isn't an unlikely scum team. Egix mostly cared about looking like he was town and then imploded at a time when e was too busy to respond to mounting pressure on him.

[Light Ethos]

If there's scum off the wagon I think it's more likely Alpaca or e.

Assuming you're taking about the wagon on 2.718: Why Alpaca? Why would scum bus e so soon?

Why wouldn’t scum bus so soon?

A reason why they wouldn't is because it is still pretty early in Day 1. I still ask Why would they?

[Light Ethos]

I will post a read list.
Town: Micc, Ninja
town-lean: Lafayette
Null: Saudade
Scum-lean: Egix, Alpaca, Malakittens
Scum: e

Reads of course are subject to change.

Micc

is liberally applying pressure to players this game while staying focused on his top scum choice. He hasn't been content to just park his vote and chill. I acknowledge that scum can do this too, but I feel that town has more motivation to, as we have no PT to retreat to to strategize.

Ninja

is actively engaged in ways that are productive for town. Activity is a plus. Engaging in extended dialogue with Lafayette during the time 2.718 is away from the thread is productive. His reasoning has also aligned with mine on two players in my scum pool.

Lafayette

is a bit harder to pin down for me, but I lean town on him. He shows an interest in scum hunting. I'll definitely look hard at this slot if 2.718 flips red this game.

Saudade

is hard for me to read. It's part of how he plays, but I don't like him enthusiastically calling for a hammer before discussion. That being said, he's shown constructive, town-motivated thought processes from my perspective depending on 2.718's alignment.

The three scum-lean players are in that category for different levels of the same thing. I don't see scum hunting from them. Micc and I will disagree on

Egix's

demeanor in the thread. It's a lot of telling me that he is town and zero showing me that he's town. I'm not going to give him a pass for that. If he's overwhelmed town, he can act like that out of abysmal play. If he's overwhelmed scum, he can act like that out of abysmal play. Either way, it's unhelpful to town, and I need my town players to show town motivation.

Malakittens

comes to the thread but hasn't been digging into players much. That's fine for Newbies like some of us. I don't think that's fine for experienced players, even if they haven't been here in a few years.

Alpaca

came to the thread super late, and I think it was mostly in response to my direct question about what Alpaca thought about something. Alpaca also hasn't shown much interest in finding scum. I'm going to lean to the scum side of null for now until I see otherwise. I'm not keen on players just lurking and skating their way through Day 1, especially if they have given no excuse for their lack of interest.

2.718

I have already explained my vote on him. I agree with some of Micc's later comments on him. I really dislike that 2.718 does not seem to understand why he is being voted and instead has chosen to continue to come back to a non-responsive answer of "It was a joke." Disengaged, careless town is bad town. I don't think you want my best-case opinion of you to be that you're a town player that isn't willing to be play to our win condition.

[Light Ethos]

Shame on y’all for pushing 2.7 and then not actually responding to his post or answering his questions.

His section of my read list answers two questions. I need to see the rest of his unfinished read list to fully comment on it. I wonder why he chose those players as his reads to post first.

See, my perspective was this: I was reading the posts, found basically nothing to comment on, and then I saw someone say that their role begins with the letter T. Although that person has a 75% chance of being town from my POV, I knew that such a LAMIST was un-serious. And then I realized that "Vanilla Townie" starts with a "V", so I decide to play along with the non-serious mood and make a joke about how it "must be a PR". To me, that is no more harmful than an RVS vote.

Thank you for posting your perspective. I think that the outcome matters though. You called attention to someone's PR crumb. I think that's a harmful thing to do, and it is much more harmful than a simple RVS vote could be.

I posted a read list. I'm not assigning a numerical scale to it, but you can see what you think about my reads in comparison to yours.

[Light Ethos]

What I don't understand is why people so often stop the thought process there and fail to consider that scum are rarely so obvious about their partners.

You're not my number one option for a partner to 2.718. I didn't stop the process there. I'm not going to avoid the possibility of scum playing poorly or suboptimally. If town can do it, scum can too. This sentence makes it seem like you're a player who assumes that scum is incapable of making awful mistakes.

[Light Ethos]

You're pretty sure e is scum - he's your strongest scum-read - and you're pretty sure that if e is scum then I'm more likely to also be scum... yet I'm in your town-lean pool.

You're in my town-lean pool and not my town pool. Flips give information, and it's important to reexamine significant interactions in the context of new information.

[Light Ethos]

@2.718: You misquoted there. The quote from Lafayette is one of my posts (110).

[Light Ethos]

Saudade voted for Alpaca, but never really listed a reason. That should have been an unvote. Lafayette voted for Alpaca presumably due to inactivity.

What do you think of Alpaca's read list?

[Light Ethos]

2.7 deserves some space

Why does any player deserve space? This sounds like you aren't confident in your read, or like you wanted to start a distancing wagon on 2.718. Your previous post says that you find that his actions are not what you expect from a town player. You then switch your vote to someone inactive, saying that 2.718 deserves some space. What has 2.718 done to deserve space? If you're unsatisfied with his response, why should he be given a pass?

That being said, pressure on Alpaca, Malakittens, or Egix's slot is something I can get behind too because they haven't done much in terms of proactivity.

[Light Ethos]

This is the only substantive contribution from Alpaca. I can't say I disagree with any of it.

This cannot be true. You can't both find zero disagreement with Alpaca's read list and want to lynch 2.718 today. Alpaca saw 2.718's wagon as a mislynch based on a joke.

[Light Ethos]

Not to be rude, but please explain to me what Saudade has done in terms of proactivity over me?

He's put force behind pressure by way of voting players who are suspicious. At the time of my post, you hadn't done that. You had kept your vote from RVS, removed it when it was called out, and didn't place it elsewhere.

[Light Ethos]

2.7 deserves some space

Why does any player deserve space? This sounds like you aren't confident in your read, or like you wanted to start a distancing wagon on 2.718. Your previous post says that you find that his actions are not what you expect from a town player. You then switch your vote to someone inactive, saying that 2.718 deserves some space. What has 2.718 done to deserve space? If you're unsatisfied with his response, why should he be given a pass?

That being said, pressure on Alpaca, Malakittens, or Egix's slot is something I can get behind too because they haven't done much in terms of proactivity.

Because until the mod flips their role everybody has a non zero chance of being town and town players deserve a chance to be heard.

If you're not giving your scum reads room to say what they want to say or making an open minded effort to listen then you're tunneling. I want to hear 2.7's thoughts on the game not him defending himself from being pressured so my vote change reflects that.

And they don't have space to comment on the game when they have players' votes on them? He gave a response to our criticisms that was unsatisfactory to me and unsatisfactory to you. I'm not convinced that he's town, but I also haven't called for the hammer. He has adequate room to comment on the game. I do want to hear his thoughts on the game too, and the only way to truly compel someone to speak is under the threat of the hammer.

@micc: what makes you town read me?

Our reads seem to be lining up. That combining with my familiarity of you means you're not in the lynch pool for today although I wish you were a little more open about reasons behind your reads.

What reads? Player reads or reads of posts?

[Light Ethos]

This is the only substantive contribution from Alpaca. I can't say I disagree with any of it.

This cannot be true. You can't both find zero disagreement with Alpaca's read list and want to lynch 2.718 today. Alpaca saw 2.718's wagon as a mislynch based on a joke.

This. Pretty jarring set of posts there ninja.

Whatever.

What kind of response is this? Do you not see the gap in your logic here?

[Light Ethos]

I'm not reading all these walls prod me when the afk people come back and we can move this forward

And you're lurking out because...?

[Light Ethos]

This is the only substantive contribution from Alpaca. I can't say I disagree with any of it.

This cannot be true. You can't both find zero disagreement with Alpaca's read list and want to lynch 2.718 today. Alpaca saw 2.718's wagon as a mislynch based on a joke.

As I explained, I no longer think that the joke itself is as scummy as we thought it was, but I thought the way he handled it and failed to understand the implications of what he did were a bad case.

If you want to get down to brass tacks, I'm not going to throw alpaca into my scum pool just because I may disagree with one of his reads.

Apparently I need to post this twice?

Yes I can read. I read your post. It is not responsive. Alpaca does not have 2.178 in the lynch pool. 2.718 is your top or 2nd highest lynch choice unless you no longer stand by your read list. There is a gap in logic for you to say that you don't disagree with anything in Alpaca's read list. I also didn't insinuate that you need to add Alpaca to your scum pool on account of a difference in one read.

[Light Ethos]

@Saudade: That's fair. I just wanted a reason.

[Light Ethos]

He's pressed like four players in his last few posts, you're not being singled out?

Strawman. My concern is not with being "singled out"; it's with my disappointment that the towniest player isn't making greater strides to work WITH people. If he's pressing 4 people, obviously at least 2 of those presses are a wasted effort, if not more.

I thought my contributions here and the things I've accomplished thus far in the game would make it more likely that he work with me, not jump on some FOTM opportunity based on what I admit was not one of my finest moments. I have the people I find scummiEST, not DEFINITIVELY SCUMMY, meaning there is rationale for me to doubt my conclusions. Alpaca described the exact thing that makes me less convinced of 2.718's guilt, and that is that the comment about Saudade in and of itself is too obvious and isn't a great piece of evidence. He also did what I thought was a good job of describing why Saudade may be guilty, though I'm just not there yet myself which is why he's in my "I don't know what to do with you" camp. That is obviously not a townie camp. Plus, I know this is subtle, but I did not say I AGREED with him, I only said I DON'T DISAGREE, as in I can't dig up good reasons to directly strike down any piece of evidence other than to weigh more evidence against it.

Again you continue your strategy of sniping instead of writing out more thorough and fleshed-out thoughts. If you're town, that's INCREDIBLY unhelpful of you to do.

Lafayette gave reasonable responses to this post that I agree with. My problem as a town player Day 1 in a Newbie game is that I don't have any guarantee that any specific player is town. Like he said, if I just focus on the two players that ping me the most, and if those two players are both town, then not only have I wasted time, but I've also hurt town. It's important to read others' posts carefully with an open and critical mind. I think that you are town this game, and I noted that in my read list. That does not mean that you are immune to criticism, and it does not mean that my reads are perfect, whether they are town reads or not.

Two questions for you.

You said that you had no real interest in lynching Lafayette, but you later said that Lafayette has sniped one too many times.
Can you be more precise about what you mean when you say that he has "sniped?"
Does your vote on Lafayette mean that you are now scum reading him, or is it simply retaliation?

[Light Ethos]

Thank you for the detailed answer. I agree that I would like a bit more from him sometimes. I usually like to ask questions if I feel I don't have enough information to understand what someone means (like me asking you about sniping).

Good to know that you have a larger reason for voting him.

[Light Ethos]

Does your vote on Lafayette mean that you are now scum reading him, or is it simply retaliation?

I'm choosing not to answer this. But no it's not just retaliation.

This bothers me.

If you're voting someone you best be ready to speak to why.
If it's

not just

retaliation, then does it follow that retaliation is a part of the reasoning?

It bothers me too.

[Light Ethos]

Buuuuuut, now I lost the ability to use this strategy because you imbeciles got paranoid.

No you didn't. Two people expressed that something bothered you without even voting you, and you flew off the handle, calling us imbiciles. Nothing prevented you from using your strategy. If anything, you're the one who got paranoid considering how flustered your posts get when you receive any small amount of criticism.

[Light Ethos]

VOTE: acr

l-1 guys

I’ll be a little disappointed if after almost 400 posts of analysis / discussion, we just end up lynching the guy who said the least.

I agree with this. I'm not a fan of just hammering one of the inactive slots just because they are inactive.

[Light Ethos]

I’m not a big fan of hammering someone based off inactivity because I know I would get mad at games when people would say ‘well Mala is caught scum because she’s not posting’ and I would actually have a legit reason for not posting

Why are you voting Alpaca to L-1 in the context of this quote?

You also unvoted earlier because you didn't want a new player to hammer without discussion and then consciously chose to put Alpaca back to L-1 anyway. Shouldn't your L-1 vote have come with warning text if you genuinely cared about that?

[Light Ethos]

I'm also backing 391 up with a vote.

UNVOTE: 2.718
VOTE: Malakittens

[Light Ethos]

My position on 2.718 has not changed, but he also has not returned to the thread yet.

[Light Ethos]

Thank you for answering my question. It looks like your case against Ninja is formed entirely from my analysis of his recent posts and his responses to that analysis. I think a Ninja vote is valid given what we've seen, but I can also see a town player getting frustrated in the manner that he has. What do you like about Malakittens more than Ninja?

[Light Ethos]

If I were actually scum then I deserve an award for being the most frequent contributor and most reckless and ballsy scum for topping the post count, especially in a game where very little is happening.

People have different styles. Saudade is pretty aloof with brief posts but applies pressure where he sees it is deserved. I tend to have an all options are possible until they aren't possible anymore approach to the game. Do I see some scummy things from you? Yes. Does that mean that my town read of you can change? Of course it does. Do I think that you are scum? No. Not yet.

Responding to criticism with insults is not a great way for you to gain favor with people though.

[Light Ethos]

Welcome to the thread, TheHolySpirit. My dude, it's well past the time to be tossing random votes. What are your reads on what has happened so far?

[Light Ethos]

Alright, I'll put the warning out there since TheHolySpirit didn't:

Alpaca is at L-1. Do not hammer without discussion.

I guess I'll just wagon Alpaca, they havn't really said much to defend themselves yet

This does not feel like a town mindset.

[Light Ethos]

By the way, someone asked about my opinion on Malakittens. I never really looked into Mala's posts, and I like where my current focus is going.

That was me. I asked because I don't see Malakittens doing much at all, but I see Ninja trying to get reads and to apply pressure. I also found Malakittens' inconsistency to be much more egregious than Ninja's. Any opinion on that?

[Light Ethos]

@Malakittens: Are you someone who likes to policy lynch inactive slots?

[Light Ethos]

Which of those three do you think it is?

[Light Ethos]

Note: I'm not caught up yet, but it's important to reply to 2.718 since he's been asking for an explanation of what I took issue with in Malakittens' play.

@2.718: I had a purpose in asking you which option of those three seemed most likely. It's one thing to list options, and it's another to list your opinions on those options.

You may disagree, but I found and continue to find that Malakittens' vote on Alpaca was contradictory and inconsistent with the way that she spoke about playing the game. She didn't trust new players enough not to hammer Alpaca, so immediately after casting her L-1 vote, she brings Alpaca back to L-2. She later brings Alpaca to L-1 again with no warning of any sort attached to it, allowing a new player to potentially come into the game and accidentally become the hammer vote. I would argue that nothing of substance happened to Alpaca's slot between those two votes. Malakittens also has been doing the bare minimum to look like she is doing something, but I don't find her contributions to the thread to have been very constructive.

I do find it scummy that you, e, wouldn't bother to even look at the interactions surrounding another player with a wagon going against her before casting your vote elsewhere.

[Light Ethos]

I didn't think anyone was pushing contradiction in their case against mala.

You're correct that the contradiction was not the main reason I voted her, and I will say that she is not the person I find most scummy in this thread. The game was stalling, and I wanted to press another player I found scummy while 2.718 was gone.

UNVOTE: Malakittens

I'm more than satisfied by alien's replace in for Alpaca's slot. I tried Micc's approach of letting 2.718 play the game without the threat of the hammer over his head to see if his play would clear up. It didn't.

[Light Ethos]

am starting to suspect Light Ethos because it seems like the whole deal about Malakittens' inconsistency and contradictions may actually be some kind of misdirection, especially given the fact that Mala currently is at L-2.

If I'm Mafia, who is my partner?

[Light Ethos]

A brief look at his profile shows he was the Day 1 lynch in Newbie 1876 as a Mafia Goon.

[Light Ethos]

I didn't think anyone was pushing contradiction in their case against mala.

You're correct that the contradiction was not the main reason I voted her, and I will say that she is not the person I find most scummy in this thread. The game was stalling, and I wanted to press another player I found scummy while 2.718 was gone.

UNVOTE: Malakittens

So what type of reactions were you trying to gain from this? I mean I really hate this post because I haven't been active today in order to even gain a reaction. This post just feels more of "im going to unvote so here's my reason to cover my butt".

I didn't unvote you to get a reaction from someone. I also don't need cover to unvote you.

am starting to suspect Light Ethos because it seems like the whole deal about Malakittens' inconsistency and contradictions may actually be some kind of misdirection, especially given the fact that Mala currently is at L-2.

If I'm Mafia, who is my partner?

also I really hate these questions. Like they are not in the least bit helpful at all.

They help me understand someone's thought process. 2.718 said that I'm becoming suspicious because I found something inconsistent in your play that bothered me, AND he said that it was a misdirection. What could I be misdirecting from? The only options are scum!LightEthos or my scum!LightEthos' partner, as 2.718 saying that town!LightEthos is misdirecting people wouldn't make sense here. So who is scum!LightEthos' partner? There are two categories of answers: 1) Scum!Malakittens or 2) not Malakittens.

From town!2.718's perspective:
1) Is scum!LightEthos misdirecting people by leading a disingenuous push onto scum!Malakittens only to redirect it later?
2) Is scum!LightEthos misdirecting people to mislynch town!Malakittens?

Those questions are different questions than the one I asked in the thread, but they are questions that are answered by the one I asked him. By asking him a question about me, I ask him a question about you, Malakittens.

What makes these questions unhelpful from your perspective?

[Light Ethos]

@Malakittens: So you throw shade on me, but you don't have it in you to answer my questions? I made a concession to you by explicitly explaining why I asked the question to 2.718 that I asked, even though by revealing my intention, he then gets to change his answer in response. You, in turn, stick me in a scum block with alien and give no explanation.

How can you put THS and Saudade as your town block? THS's slot has done almost nothing this game, and Saudade has been content to just sit around until everyone comes back to the thread. This logic makes no sense to me. Please tell me 512 is just asking for a reaction and not your serious read on the game.

[Light Ethos]

Saudade feels similar to what he felt like on the micro game. What red flags that people are seeing feels exactly why he pissed me off in the micro.

I've said before that I think this is just how he plays. I don't think that it earns him a full town read.

[Light Ethos]

Right...but how do you know this isn't how he plays as mafia as well? is what I'm getting at. You've just seen how he plays when he's Town, correct? So if we have no idea how he plays as mafia, it seems a big assumption/leap to strong town read him just because of that. How can that be such a strong town read? Perhaps you should have suggested a weaker town read?

Yes. This is where 522 was coming from. That type of assumption is not a valid one to make. Malakittens' read list feels like it came without conscious thought about the game.

[Light Ethos]

@Light: why aren’t you voting your scum read?

Because THS came to the thread and just cast two votes without reading the thread. I don't want a hammer without discussion. We're starting to run out of time though, and the closer to the deadline, that becomes more acceptable of an outcome, as a flip is better than no flip.

VOTE: 2.718

L-1

I'm still not satisfied by what e has put into the game, nor by his response to my criticism of his choice to out Saudade.

[Light Ethos]

I would say Alien’s contributions have moved him well out of lynch territory. Does that make Light Ethos your #2 scumspect then??

What’s your reasoning for suspecting Light Ethos? You seem to be the only one who does, so I’m curious where this is coming from.

He hasn’t stood out as Town to me. I haven’t liked his reads all that much.

What reads do you dislike?

Even in areas where we were voting together he was the person on the wagon I thought was most likely to be scum. Sure he can be #2 by default, but I’m pretty set on 1.7 right now.

Do you think I'm most likely scum on the wagon because you dislike my other reads, or is there more to it than that?

[Light Ethos]

When wagons build quickly one of the things I ask myself is which vote looks like scum piling on for a mislynch and I think that vote is you for the early 2.7 wagon that went to L-1 and for the mala wagon that went to L-2.

If I wanted a mislynch, I wouldn't be posting warnings about people being at L-1.

[Light Ethos]

uhh I highly doubt that. If you have a theory belief that town players should give a warning when making a L-1 then you'll do it as scum to maintain your town meta.

Playing at as scum at a high level means mimicking your town play not tricking newbies into bad hammers because they're not paying attention to the votecount.

Predit: ^response to Light Ethos

You're free to keep your skepticism of me as long as you want to. What I said is still true.

[Light Ethos]

@Micc if you're town, I think you'll have to reevaluate how you look at wagons after this one.

[Light Ethos]

Hmm that's interesting. Makes me wonder where you draw the line.

Would you immediately hammer a town player who is put to L-1 if you were scum? If not why wouldn't you?

No I wouldn't, but that's not a parallel to what's happening in game nor to what I said in post 581. I wouldn't because it's counterproductive and is an easy way to draw suspicion. I do draw the line somewhere, but there is not the line.

[Light Ethos]

It's definitely a valid point for both of them. I was for the most part town reading Egi, however, I'm looking at THS' posts and hating every single one of the four of them.

Paca's posts I semi-liked. The reasons for the semi is because I actually enjoyed the read posts in his second post even though I disagreed with 3/4 of the reads. I also didn't like how he didn't have a read on me, Micc or Lafay at the time.

As for Alien's post. I don't really get the whole doing the vote analysis. I mean I get where's he's trying to read people based on how they vote, but for I guess without a flip it feels useless to me. I want to see if he got something out of it or not. I disagree with some of the reads. I get where he is null reading THS spot, but Egi did have a good amount of posts. I would love to know what his read is on the Egi slot before egi replaced out. I guess for Alien I'd love for him to go into depth with the reads. I

Doing a vote analysis that also includes each reason given for the vote can be helpful in both each player's outlook on the game which can help in sorting players.
I think it's valid for you to say that Egix was overwhelmed town, but I'm not going to town read him off of what I saw from him. From my perspective, I could easily see that coming from overwhelmed scum too.
THS's posts after replacing in didn't exactly help me feel better about the slot. It will be important for me to see what the slot does in the future.

Is the vote analysis the main reason you have alien in your scumblock? Is that one post you hated the reason why you have me in your scumblock?

[Light Ethos]

Ok. You’re now on record as having said that you would not announce an L-1 you made as scum. It’s out there for everyone to see. Once this game is over people will even be able to link it and use it as evidence. Does that change whether you will announce or not when you put a player to L-1 as scum?

I saw where this was going before you posted the message in red, and what I said was that I do draw a line, and this is not where the line is. I also didn't say that I wouldn't announce an L-1 as scum. I can see where you unintentionally misinterpreted my post though. You took it to mean that I wouldn't say L-1 at all. That isn't what I meant. It was the big, emphatic warning that I wouldn't post.

Yes, this game is public record. No, it doesn't change whether I will post big, emphatic warnings based on alignment. This is the only game in which I have done that, and I am doing it for a reason that is specific to the circumstances of this game. We've had a revolving door of replacements in a Newbie game, where there are going to be more inexperienced players than in other games. In addition, THS replaced into this game and just cast an RVS vote and then decided to jump onto a wagon without bothering to catch up. That can really hurt town if it misfires an accidental lynch, and it wastes our time running that person down afterward for being so careless. That's an outcome I would be ok with if I'm scum, and even better, every other player in the game had an equal chance to stand up and say something to prevent it from happening. I'd have plausible deniability on my side. I'm not ok with this outcome as town, and I have a personal responsibility to prevent it from happening.

In short: context matters.

And yes, I'm willing to make my future scum games harder for you to understand where I'm coming from.

[Light Ethos]

last post by eulers was quite alright

Last 2 posts by 2.718 feel like he's thrown in the towel. Is he scum playing dead, or is he town genuinely struggling through Day 1?
How often would a town player not have any scum leans or any full scum reads without a gun to the head? I tend to think that wouldn't happen often.
He then casts his vote onto alien just to use his vote, because alien is in his PoE, and because he has an active wagon.

A scum player can use 2.718's last post as a way of giving cover for his attempt to slink through the day by adding more fuel to the fire on alien's wagon.
However, the town motivation there would be that he doesn't want us to end up with a no lynch Day 1.

Micc, Saudade, Ninja, and Lafayette are completely out of my Day 1 lynch pool. I'll also buy the meta read of Malakittens for now. I think most times that red!alien defends 2.718 is with red!2.718, as the most logical place for the pressure to go after 2.718 would be back to alien. That team is believable, but it isn't my first thought. I need alien to come back for me to be able to sort him better. I want to see how alien responds to 2.718's answer to his questions. Yesterday, he said that he would post within the next 24 hours. I hope he makes good on that.

[Light Ethos]

I would say Alien’s contributions have moved him well out of lynch territory. Does that make Light Ethos your #2 scumspect then??

What’s your reasoning for suspecting Light Ethos? You seem to be the only one who does, so I’m curious where this is coming from.

He hasn’t stood out as Town to me. I haven’t liked his reads all that much. Even in areas where we were voting together he was the person on the wagon I thought was most likely to be scum. Sure he can be #2 by default, but I’m pretty set on 1.7 right now.

Well I am here and I am playing. Mind actually elaborating and giving me a chance to defend myself before you throw shade around? This is a pretty crummy thing to do as Town.

Micc is calling me out in the post you quoted. I don't think your post lines up with the quote you pulled.

[Light Ethos]

@alien: What did you think of 2.718's response to Ninja's question?
He produced Malakittens and THS as the two scum.

[Light Ethos]

Sorry you had to deal with that, Saudade and Not Known 15. You got pretty unlucky.

[Light Ethos]

I figured it was because Light Ethos was the strongest town player (and I believe this to be true...no offense to anyone else. But his post count was very high and he questioned absolutely everything).

Thank you very much!