Newbie 1937 | Maths | Over

[Eggs]

31: don't like this series of three posts ending here. Calls something suspicious twice then rows back. Poor choice of words from someone who seems to have a thesaurus to choose from? Doesn't sit right with me, but weak.

37 and 48 is how town TTTT acts. TTTT was always going to be all over 46, if you scumread him for 47 go read his other games.

I dislike 41 and 42, seems to be trying hard but not really giving anything. 49 is empty.

I like 43, 45 is believable. 51 and 57 seem inconsistent. If you think he gains nothing from misrepping (51) then why do you disbelieve that it was an accident (57)? Do you think it was an intentional mistake made in order to achieve nothing?

58 is harsh, you can definitely read 43 as shading by choosing words which cast more suspicion on Imperator than a different choice of words would ('why did you lie/misrep' as opposed to 'why did you miss me?'). On the other hand Robb is absolutely right that 52 is also shading.

I think Robbnva is too inflexible about how he is understanding people's posts and how he is allowing his own posts to be understood. The point above re 52 and 58 is one example, 59 is another. I think it's apparent that LuckyOtter meant that you were looking for Imperator's response and were going to judge him based on it, which isn't the dictionary definition of reaction test but is still sort of testing his reaction - you can see how the wording mistake arose.

63 again illustrates a deaf ear to the way words can be interpreted - Lie/Misrep are loaded terms that carry connotations of dishonesty in them, but 'who cares' implies that you're not intending connotations of dishonesty. Or you are implying dishonesty because of 61 but you're not scum-reading dishonesty in 64? the white knight comment I definitely see.

Not liking 66 and 74 at all. Buddy buddy with his new friend, flip flopping on Otter and foreshadowing being convinced. Then being convinced. 'Fascinating to see how Luckyotter flips' really got my skin crawling. 74 is just a rehash of others' arguments.

69: logic is flawed but it's analysis and I'm getting to the same conclusion by a different route at this point.

76 is irritating me. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional? Is that not the whole point? Do you not care if he's lying?

87 and others to date: I'm liking zeebu. Still not got an opinion whether he's town though.

92: no there's an issue with your understanding of how people will understand your posts. You literally said he's 90% scum. That means you are saying that you are right 90% of the time here. That means you are saying that you are accurate.

94: Yes. This. But shouldn't you be town-reading Otter for it then? Or at least consider that he's town trying to sort you and take a look at the rest of the thread?

100-124: this page is a waste of a page.

On 129 - you're moving far too fast. The votes on pema were all literally within 11 hours of his post. And you're criticising people being on him 21 hours after his post. It's fair to scumread pema for greeting and dashing, it's fair to scumread pema for the nature of his greeting (obviously weak, I am NOT saying this is lockscum before you misconstrue me). What's wrong with pushing what they view as the scummiest slot? Isn't that what you're doing?

The sad thing is I'm leaning town on Robb and it's a shame all we're getting is a death tunnel and a tantrum when he isn't sheeped. I'm going to stop commenting on most Robb's posts at this point because it won't add anything, unless something sticks out.

I can get behind 137. Seems reasonable on a chronological read through at this point. Except Otter. I'm surprised there's no opinion here.

Dont like 149 and the resulting conversation. He's not a maths person, you know what he's trying to say, don't push it.

154 is the second bit of detective work from the thesaurus dude. I'm starting to approve of this slot.

169 and 170 are white knight. Robb will push this slot shortly I'm sure.

171 busywork.

190 noted.

192 you don't, according to 76

214 about time someone pushed this, and I agree completely with 215.

234 You are tunnelling. You aren't interested in this case at all. Please explain why you have such a strong townread on someone who you suggested earlier might by lying. It would be extremely pro-town for you to do so.

241 I actually think Imperator is hard-pocketing Robb and Robb hasn't even noticed because he's not looking.

Another post incoming.

[Eggs]

Reads -

TTTT: I think we have town!TTTT today. He's playing very much in line with how he played in his town game with me last time.

Zeebu: Made some good points, done some solving, leaning marginally town but I'm cautious about this one.

CC: Barely noticed the posts on the read through. Had to go back to ISO to work out what was said and there's not much here. Fluff and self-defence. At least commits to reads on Zeebu and Imperator

Robb: This feels like town to me. I just wish he'd help us sort the rest of the game rather than just Otter.

Otter: Mixed feelings. Robb had some fair points but a lot of reachy/confbias ones and some of the accusations (casting shade etc) I can read as town. Leaning slightly town on this. Interesting that nobody got on this wagon, that worries me a bit.

Imperator: Seems far too keen to ingratiate, relying on other reads and not committing.

Pema: couple of mechanical scum-reads, needs to contribute to overcome that. If imperator's ISO wasn't so yuck I'd push this slot to get more.

Jocus: I like this for town right now. Seems genuinely solve-y.

So I guess
Jocus/TTTT/robb
otter/zeebu
cc/pema
imperator

[Eggs]

I actually thought about the pocketing. But I also explain why there is no way he can be scum assuming I’m wrong so it lucky which I don’t think I am

I missed that. Or are you referring to the TTTT scum read? If so, can we go through that please? I'm getting the opposite on that.

[Eggs]

VOTE: Imperator

[Eggs]

I didn't get the impression you had many scum-reads on you on page 3/4 (or even after that actually).

Seems like the ideal (abrasive) slot to pocket. If you locktown him there ain't nobody going to shout you down.

[Eggs]

So you're saying scum!imperator doesn't interact that way with town!otter? The page 3 thing?

[Eggs]

eggs, we meet again

In more pleasant circumstances than lats we parted!

[Eggs]

So you're saying scum!imperator doesn't interact that way with town!otter? The page 3 thing?

Idk what way you’re referring to. I’ll check later.

I'm trying to figure out what you're referring to re. your argument about town!imperator. Sorry. You seem confident town!otter implies town!imperator and I don't follow.

[Eggs]

If I’m wrong about otter, there is no way imperor or whatever is scum imo.

Is this your explanation?

If it's not, when you get a moment can you point me in the direction of the reasoning because I have obviously missed it all. For which I apologise.

[Eggs]

That’s was with the assumption otter is town which tttt seems to think if he thinks imp is scum

Is this your reasoning for town!imp?

[Eggs]

Ok - what caused you to see it that way?

I'm not trying to be obnoxious. If it's just obvious, then i don't see it because I'm new and I would appreciate a pointer towards the key facts.

[Eggs]

OK I am stupid. Thank you. I didn't connect that quote to Imperator at all, to be honest I had forgotten he joined the wagon.

[Eggs]

re. the Imperator vote - It's a fair point but I'm not sure I agree scum wouldn't do it (maybe good scum wouldn't). On first read through I saw it exactly as a blending in vote, and although pena was probably the easier wagon a vote there puts him at L-1 so that's not the easiest way to go.

p-edit - a question surely can absolutely be shading. Like the way you ask it is key. You can phrase it in so many different ways. I saw the way you asked the question as pointed/accusatory and although Otter may have been factually incorrect in stating that it was shading (I guess that relies on intent?) I can definitely see why he might genuinely have seen it that way. On the other hand there is scum (and town) motivation for accusing people of shading.

You weren't reaction testing you were just looking for an answer. That can be just sloppy language from otter and I'm not sure what the scum motivation of incorrectly calling it reaction testing is. I think that one needs to be dropped if there's no scum motivation.

The one about the pema wagon I have no idea where otter got that from either. That's the one of the three I have more concerns about.

[Eggs]

Official Vote Count 1.0C

An essay about how math unfortunately functions as a gatekeeper.

---

Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Imperator

(2): TTTT, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2): Robbnva, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-06-13 19:00:00).

Mod notes:

Robb - tttts scum game is not this. I know you don't like his play, but just finished a game with TTTT scum and unless he's transformed, he's town today.

[Eggs]

The quote was not intended

[Eggs]

Alright. If you get a couple of hours and you're bored meta his newbie games. If you can townblock him that takes us forwards.

[Eggs]

I do think it's that obvious that you'll pick it up.

[Eggs]

No offense meant, I mean it's that obvious that even someone not in the game will pick it up.

Fair enough about meta. But I think he's just going to find it hard to imitate himself due to enthusiasm. So has some merit in this case.

[Eggs]

You know I'm liking this version of Imperator more than the earlier one. Although I'm struggling to get motivation to trawl through pages of yelling. Just...not good for getting the enthusiasm going.

Got time to revisit if necessary, but there people are flying under the radar and not enough wagons today. Two people have less posts than me and I've just had a 2 day hiatus after replacing in.

VOTE: ClearlyClarity

Was kinda expecting more from this slot.

[Eggs]

CC?

Wanted to try to sort her but seems like that's not going to happen. To me CC and pema are just near-unsortable slots today, which ain't a nice position to be in.

Also where has Jocus gone?

[Eggs]

The posts on the last page were something, I dunno, it's like bland and same as what had already been said, and focused on the two main wagons.

Wish she'd followed through on whatever she was trying to say about me.

[Eggs]

Wagon-nomics (the study of wagons):

1. Why did TTTT, Eggs, and LuckyOtter spontaneously shift from Imperator to ClearlyClarity? (scum collusion???)
2. Why do the scummiest players have a complicated cross-lynching situation? (there's some scum in it)

Dunno. What do you think?

[Eggs]

Or are your brackets your answers, in which case why the question marks?

[Eggs]

This flips green. Not hammering.

[Eggs]

VOTE: ClearlyClarity

Resting here until your finals are done and you town it up.

[Eggs]

Are your PR hunting Jocus?

I've changed my mind.

VOTE: Jocus Aevorum

[Eggs]

I'm on the same page. Scum are lurking and letting the tvt kill us. Pema, CC, you.

[Eggs]

Had him at town earlier, he's trending downwards lately.

[Eggs]

TTTT was a big loss.

[Eggs]

At least one. Not really thought beyond that. I see you and Imperator as tvt with Robb although imperator actually had some things to worry about in his iso, need to sort that. Trending downwards in my head as rightly or wrongly I feel he faded towards end of day. I need to recheck iso to see if that is fair.

[Eggs]

Zeebu trending downwards that it, not Imperator. I'll look properly when I'm not drinking, for now just going on gut and memory.

[Eggs]

The Robb thing is all trying to keep him from exploding. And get something usable out of him.

Did you really not get town vibes from Robb? I think half the players voting for him thought he was town.

[Eggs]

Scum do setup speculation. That is a scumtell.

[Eggs]

Hence the vote.

[Eggs]

Did you really not get town vibes from Robb? I think half the players voting for him thought he was town.

Maybe this isn't true. Someone or more definitely commented that's this was a good vt lynch.

And tttt is obvtown and telling you Robb's meta is saying town here.

And do your seriously read a scum putting themselves at the middle of these arguments?

Nah. That was town by any calm and detached read.

Can I check, you saying you thought he was scum?

But you didn't vote him?

[Eggs]

Town can't clear anyone until the pr flips. But scum can call people as VT from fake investigative results. This is not helpful.

This is a scumtell. Otter, back me up on scum carrying more about setup speculation than town please.

I read it in a game, can't remember which, but it makes sense, information gained is more useful to scum pr hunting than town trying to do anything. Until massclaim when fine.

[Eggs]

Google turns up some guy beginning with T's standard tells which talk about setup speculation. Not what I saw originally but backs it up tangentially.

[Eggs]

Indeed. But it's a side note with actual content.

Watch carefully do is pushing me and why.

[Eggs]

Because scum commits suicide playing like he did.

And because, like it or not, he was generating content.

And because he was scum hunting no matter how misguided.

And because tttt was obvtown and said scum Robb does not play like this.

And because his frustration rang so genuine.

You said you could entertain the possibility he was scum. Is that a scum read or a town read?

[Eggs]

Seriously, read his iso again. He's so wrong on everything, but feel the words. That is frustrated town, not fake frustrated scum.

This isn't power scum. This is tunneling. Power scum tries to avoid lynches, Robb would have got lynched day 2 if he had got a target lynched day 1 and it was town.

That's not what power scum means.

If your seriously read his iso again and think he's scum I can't help you.

[Eggs]

Wait, is your problem that I said 'this is town' rather than 'this is probably town'?

If that's your problem please say so I can chew you out over it tomorrow. I reckon I can set a record for most posts quoted on this.

[Eggs]

So if we're happy with my frustration that the only decent reads are gone with TTTTs death being a scumtell, are we also happy that Jocus pr fishing is a scumtell? Or are you going to cherry pick which tells you want to use?

[Eggs]

Zeebu you fished as scum in 1933, trying to find what crumb tttt may have seen that caused him to hammer Alexander.

You see why this is anti town now?

[Eggs]

Zeebu you fished as scum in 1933, trying to find what crumb tttt may have seen that caused him to hammer Alexander.

You see why this is anti town now?

You’re gonna have to explain this one, we were both scum that game so I was trying to create a little friction

I mean do you see why I reacted like I did in that game? Fmpov if TTTT is a power role hammering because he knows Alex is not a town pr you really don't want to bring that up as scum. And if he saw someone else crumb or play like a pr and hammered to protect them from having to cc you also don't want him to have to explain that.

So do you see why that sort of discussion is anti town?

Someone also just slipped that they're not Neapolitan because they got the role wrong. If we're in second column mafias life just got easier. Let's stop discussing that.

So do you see why this sort of discussion is anti town?

[Eggs]

I can take the hypo it as a mistake. I was smashed last night (apologies) and the vote was more of an expression of extreme displeasure with the play.

Thinking about it now I certainly can't see Jocus doing that on a team with cc, zeebu or otter.

Cc what's your feel on the rest of the slots?

[Eggs]

Also pema, if you're lurking please join us.

[Eggs]

What do you think of the three wagons yesterday? Were scum playing it cool because they were all town or was one (or two) of the wagons on scum and scum had to work to make sure a townie got lynched?

[Eggs]

At least one. Not really thought beyond that. I see you and Imperator as tvt with Robb although imperator actually had some things to worry about in his iso, need to sort that.

What things?

Things addressed previously. Nothing jumped out at me later on during the day, felt like tvt again, but at some point I'm going to have to delve through it more carefully.

[Eggs]

I guess for me Imperator is also on my radar after the fight between him and Robb, it does seem like a scum tactic to try and cause an argument between him and a town. However, I can also see how it could easily be TvT given the lack of substance in that argument I guess?!

My feeling on these things is (perhaps wrongly) why would scum want to put themselves in a 1v1 situation? Those numbers aren't good enough for scum.

[Eggs]

What's the argument for imperator or cc? just normal odds (2 people from the 6 remaining excluding you) or is there some reason you think it's more likely than simple odds?

[Eggs]

What's your thoughts on who's what zeebu? You voted Imperator yesterday but apart from that I don't see much.

[Eggs]

Zeebu, you can take your vote off CC - she wasn't referring to Robb as town leader!

In pretty much scumminess order:

697 feels like town. Along with my gut feeling earlier on yesterday this is the read I'm most confident in, although that's not exactly saying much.

I got a massive town vs town vibe from Robb/Otter yesterday and seems like far too much effort to put it into words (tell me if you want me to (please don't)) but still feeling it. I was kinda hoping there would be more substance in terms of content though which worries me.

I'm struggling to go through Imperator's ISO. I get to about 250 then i lose all motivation. Awaiting day 2 content. I'm leaning town on some of the argument and there is scumhunting going on there, however I didn't like how he basically flipped from agreeing with Robbs case on Otter to disagreeing with the same case on him. Maybe that's just a case of

CC has turned up. Questions feel genuine. Getting town vibes off what she's saying, although conscious that I can't assess the motivation without the day 1 presence which makes it harder to pick up scum doing the same.

Jocus. Fair to write the hypo off as a mistake I think. Pretending that never happened. 439 was useful, but didn't like the about-face onto 642 after pushing Robb.

Pema - I got nothing at all.

Problem is i'm getting town vibes off a lot of people. Since I can only PoE Pema, the bunch of town-leanings is why she goes to the bottom of the list.

For related reasons I'm actually going to confirm my vote on Jocus, and ask for pressure here or somewhere else. Not voting is awful at this point.

[Eggs]

I'm struggling to go through Imperator's ISO. I get to about 250 then i lose all motivation. Awaiting day 2 content. I'm leaning town on some of the argument and there is scumhunting going on there, however I didn't like how he basically flipped from agreeing with Robbs case on Otter to disagreeing with the same case on him. Maybe that's just a case of

Maybe that's just a case of seeing it from the other side changes your perspective.

[Eggs]

Pema, are you actually trying to find scum? How do you envisage the next 5 days panning out?

[Eggs]

Just a little time right now to start doing some VCA. I don't have time right now to shade TTTT and rob as green but I can get to it later if anyone wants. I deleted a couple VCs that were unchanged from the previous one.

Advice for newbies: These are just the official vote counts. Remember that voting movement happens between them, so as we dig into these we need to look at the movement between official VCs as well. Especially toward the end of day. I think there's a lot of interesting movement there that I want to dig into soon.

Things that stand out to me:
1. As I already mentioned both CC and pema are avoiding voting for a really long time
2. What I didn't notice before is that Jocus is not voting for much of the game. @Jocus why was that?
3. VC 475 makes me think Eggs is probably town, except in the case of scum!Imp. I could see in an Eggs/Imp situation that Eggs wouldn't want to vote his partner or join the mislynch. If Imp is town I think Eggs is too.
4. Right around VC 559 is where we need to focus attention. I don't have the time for it atm but this is where I was talking about there being interesting movement.
5. Surface-level analysis, however, suggests that a pema/CC pairing isn't impossible. CC is in danger of getting lynched and so they both finally spring into action in different directions.
6. There is no chance imo that scum is off the robb wagon. I'm looking mostly at pema and jocus atm given voting patterns but I'm not sold on town!Imp yet
7. That said, gut says it's unlikely both scum are on the wagon. Like, let's say the team is imp/pema as I once suspected. It makes sense to try to drive up an alternative wagon to Imp's, but then CC would be an obvious place to land a vote.

More later.

Seems broadly fair. When I switched to CC yesterday I was conscious of the fact that I would be linked to Imperator so that checks out with what was going on.

I know some people don't vote as habit, which really annoys me as it takes away an important tool, but it's not always scum-indicative.

I don't know why scum would flip flop immediately on their vote and then have their partner follow up on the first vote. Wouldn't it be simpler just to have pema place the other vote? Pema wasn't exactly committed to a particular read.

[Eggs]

To clarify I said it's not always scum indicative, but probably is sometimes and in this case I do think it lines up with the scum.

[Eggs]

Otter seems to think you and pema might be a thing.

What do you think of pema?

[Eggs]

I read uninterested in finding scum as just that - someone who has additional information and doesn't need to find scum through discussion i.e. the mafia.

Flying under the radar to escape notice is a valid strategy if people don't push you for it. The less you say and do, the less you can incriminate yourself.

If a townie is contributing this little it is seriously bad play because it makes us unable to distinguish between players. May as well flip a coin at that point.

[Eggs]

Also

Jocus is at L-1

[Eggs]

Too early for that. Also will be a couple of days before his replacement arrives.

VOTE: pema22

[Eggs]

I moved my vote.

Jocus is L-1 again

[Eggs]

712?

[Eggs]

Sorry, 712?

[Eggs]

I’m still ok with keeping my vote on cc, but pema, whoa. Think it was a newbie thing?

What exactly did pema do wrong here?

[Eggs]

I’m still ok with keeping my vote on cc

Why?

Your iso is starting to bother me. Cards very close to chest.

Yesterday was all about Robb sadly and you talked about that plenty and I liked your thoughts. Today I thought earlier when you came out and started to talk about me that you'd continue in that vein but no.

You've expressed opinions on Imperator yesterday, me in a very hazy way today and Robb at great length and that's all I can really see. And you place a kinda reason free vote on cc.

Talk to us about your vote and why you don't care about the two wagons please.

Cc is coming across way more towny than you today.

VOTE: zeebu

[Eggs]

Skimming again, you also had no comment at all on the Robb lynch yesterday? Your vote was placed on Imperator in 421 but you didn't try to make a case until you were asked why the vote. After that you didn't make even a token effort to derail the Robb lynch or to push an alternative (besides the parked vote) which seems odd if you were townreading him as you say in 724.

[Eggs]

Code: Select all

[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=10996215#p10996215]post 25[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]wolfcub[/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color]
[b][color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color][/b] (1): Imperator
[b]zeebu[/b] (1): Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (5): wolfcub, ClearlyClarity, pema22, [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], zeebu
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=10998695#p10998695]post 50[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]wolfcub[/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color]
[b]pema22[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color]
[b][color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color][/b] (1): Imperator
[b]zeebu[/b] (1): Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity, zeebu
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=10999824#p10999824]post 104[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]pema22[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], LuckyOtter, zeebu
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b]zeebu[/b] (1): Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11000833#p11000833]post 126[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]pema22[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], LuckyOtter, zeebu
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b]zeebu[/b] (1): Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11002806#p11002806]post 152[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]pema22[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], LuckyOtter, zeebu
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11003188#p11003188]post 175[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]pema22[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], LuckyOtter, zeebu
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11003589#p11003589]post 207[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b]pema22[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], zeebu
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11004774#p11004774]post 228[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b]Imperator[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color]
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11005327#p11005327]post 266[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b]Imperator[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color]
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (4): Jocus Aevorum, Eggs, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11005399#p11005399]post 278[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11005555#p11005555]post 318[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11005685#p11005685]post 325[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11005984#p11005984]post 350[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11007345#p11007345]post 376[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs
[b]LuckyOtter[/b] (2): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], Imperator
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (1): LuckyOtter
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11009382#p11009382]post 415[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs, [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color]
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (2): LuckyOtter, Imperator
[b]pema22[/b] (1): zeebu

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11009760#p11009760]post 425[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (4): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs, [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (2): LuckyOtter, Imperator

[b]Not Voting[/b] (3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11011494#p11011494]post 458[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (4): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], Eggs, [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (3): LuckyOtter, Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (2): ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11011702#p11011702]post 475[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (3): LuckyOtter, Imperator, Jocus Aevorum
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (1): Eggs

[b]Not Voting[/b] (2): ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11012342#p11012342]post 507[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (2): Eggs, LuckyOtter
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (2): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (2): ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11014230#p11014230]post 536[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color], [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (2): Eggs, LuckyOtter
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (2): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

[b]Not Voting[/b] (2): ClearlyClarity, pema22
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11014443#p11014443]post 559[/url], Plotinus"]
[b]Imperator[/b] (3): [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color], zeebu, ClearlyClarity
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (3): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum, pema22
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (2): Eggs, LuckyOtter

[b]Not Voting[/b] (1): [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color]
[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=11015000#p11015000]post 635[/url], Plotinus"]
[b][color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color][/b] (5): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum, pema22, LuckyOtter, [color=#00BF00]Robbnva[/color] [b]<-- LYNCH[/b]
[b]Imperator[/b] (2): zeebu, ClearlyClarity
[b]ClearlyClarity[/b] (2): Eggs, [color=#00BF00]TTTT[/color]
[/quote]

Posted as code for any further modifications you want to make.

[Eggs]

wolfcub

(1): LuckyOtter

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Robbnva

TTTT

(1): Imperator

zeebu

(1): Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(5): wolfcub, ClearlyClarity, pema22,

TTTT

, zeebu

wolfcub

(1): LuckyOtter

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Robbnva

pema22

(1):

TTTT

TTTT

(1): Imperator

zeebu

(1): Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(4): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity, zeebu

pema22

(3):

TTTT

, LuckyOtter, zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

zeebu

(1): Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(3): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

pema22

(3):

TTTT

, LuckyOtter, zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

zeebu

(1): Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(3): wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

pema22

(3):

TTTT

, LuckyOtter, zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Not Voting

(4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

pema22

(3):

TTTT

, LuckyOtter, zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Not Voting

(4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

pema22

(2):

TTTT

, zeebu

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

Not Voting

(4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Imperator

(1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(4): Jocus Aevorum, wolfcub, pema22, ClearlyClarity

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Imperator

(1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(4): Jocus Aevorum, Eggs, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

, Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

, Imperator

Robbnva

(1): LuckyOtter

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

, Eggs,

Robbnva

Robbnva

(2): LuckyOtter, Imperator

pema22

(1): zeebu

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(4):

TTTT

, Eggs,

Robbnva

, zeebu

Robbnva

(2): LuckyOtter, Imperator

Not Voting

(3): Jocus Aevorum, ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(4):

TTTT

, Eggs,

Robbnva

, zeebu

Robbnva

(3): LuckyOtter, Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(2): ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

,

Robbnva

, zeebu

Robbnva

(3): LuckyOtter, Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

ClearlyClarity

(1): Eggs

Not Voting

(2): ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

,

Robbnva

, zeebu

ClearlyClarity

(2): Eggs, LuckyOtter

Robbnva

(2): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(2): ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

,

Robbnva

, zeebu

ClearlyClarity

(2): Eggs, LuckyOtter

Robbnva

(2): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting

(2): ClearlyClarity, pema22

Imperator

(3):

Robbnva

, zeebu, ClearlyClarity

Robbnva

(3): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum, pema22

ClearlyClarity

(2): Eggs, LuckyOtter

Not Voting

(1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(5): Imperator, Jocus Aevorum, pema22, LuckyOtter,

Robbnva

<-- LYNCH

Imperator

(2): zeebu, ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(2): Eggs,

TTTT

[Eggs]

this is L-1 on zeebs, hammer at your peril

[Eggs]

Don't self hammer.

[Eggs]

Sorry I should say please. Sounds far more impolite reading it than I intended.

[Eggs]

And I've found a counter example with n = 4 and k = 3

E(4,3) is 4. Intuitively I'm fairly sure that if you start from zero E(n,k) is always n, think long term averages. If it's not n the expected long term average occurrence of 0 mod n seems like it wouldn't be 1/n. I think you will have more luck going for the proof not the counterexamples.

[Eggs]

I'm also not sold on the zeebu lynch, playing with wagons as much as anything. And that response feels town-leaning to me.

[Eggs]

E(4,3) is 4. Intuitively I'm fairly sure that if you start from zero E(n,k) is always n, think long term averages. If it's not n the expected long term average occurrence of 0 mod n seems like it wouldn't be 1/n. I think you will have more luck going for the proof not the counterexamples.

Sorry @mod

Enough derailing of topic now, back to mafia.

UNVOTE:

[Eggs]

Also eggs, I am pretty sure you started the zeebu lynch, why the turn around?

Explained, you even quoted the post where I did it.

Why the question?

[Eggs]

Because he hasn't done anything massively scummy. Sure, I think his behaviour was potentially relatively scummy but I didn't vote him being sure he was the lynch today. I voted him partly to see his reaction, partly to see who would vote and who would attack and defend him.

Useful info for people like cc and otter to dig into for clues.

And there's no point doing that if you say this vote is fake it's just a test. You have to make it meaningful to get meaningful reactions.

[Eggs]

That's what I meant by paying with wagons. Seeing who jumps on and off.

[Eggs]

Leaning town on tone. Hard to isolate why, that's just what my gut says reading it.

What he's saying also fits his behaviour exactly.

[Eggs]

Alright, so if CC/pema isn't a thing (was worrying me but the vote point makes sense) i'm taking CC and otter out of my lynch pool, leaving Imp KIY pema and possibly zeebu.

Possible scum teams in that pool without imperator:
pema + KIY
pema + zeebs
KIY + zeebs

I don't think KIY + pema is a thing as they both lynched robb and pema put KIY to L-1 earlier today (i think this was probably mentioned earlier)

I'm OK, i think, to take a swing that zeebu isn't scum.

On that basis I'm OK with Imperator. But I think KIY needs attention tomorrow regardless of how Imp flips. Seems to be trying to cast doubt on cases and break down reads rather than make cases. And some pointed questions (regarding town leadership etc. and also to otter). This is a part of scumhunting but it feels like there's no forward momentum to it and it's not sitting right to me.

VOTE: Imperator

[Eggs]

Your slot has been very passive and uninvolved. Not overtly scummy besides that. Claimed tracker earlier.

[Eggs]

Also apologies for day 1.

[Eggs]

Strongarming is an odd word to use. If that's how you're reading it put some dark behind the shade, otherwise can't you call it something more neutral?

[Eggs]

Also no. CC and otter have had more frequent, useful and insightful contributions.

[Eggs]

Yes. Was wondering if new guy would notice.

[Eggs]

Dunno. Was hoping for a reaction about it not tying up to role pm. But he either didn't notice, doesn't care, or took it on board to look into later.

My material sucks, sue me.

[Eggs]

I guess I would have taken a 'wait, what?' within a couple of minutes of my post to be town leaning, and any sort of uncritical acknowledgement of having read the statement as scum leaning?

[Eggs]

I don't think otter is a good lynch, I doubt I'll be voting there. If Imperator isn't good, I can compromise on pema or KIY but you don't like KIY.

[Eggs]

If we lynch otter, what are your reads resulting from green and red respectively? Appreciate lack of time but indication of who is in your head would be useful.

[Eggs]

Thank you.

I would like to stick with Imperator here. I don't entirely blame people for the murky Robb mislynch and otter feels like really openly trying to solve today, doesn't feel deceptive.

Can people make a decision what they're doing asap now dong has summarised please and get intent on someone? We're running low on time.

[Eggs]

I appreciate what you're saying and it makes a lot of sense. If you had persuaded me green otter implied someone else scum I would have considered switching to that person, but we are in agreement except that I am reading otter as town and am happy that your conclusion of what follows from town otter agrees with what I want to do anyway.

[Eggs]

If Imperator is town, which I'm willing to consider but not feeling at the moment, I'd argue we're better looking at pema/KIY or even cc, but given cc's read on pema I'm more inclined to go KIY.

[Eggs]

Imp
KIY
Pema

[Eggs]

Otter has said he thinks imp is the best move. If KIY wants to go with that or if pema reaffirms her vote that makes four.

[Eggs]

I think this is the point one of the scum should claim PR so we can 50-50 over it.

Or confirm that you're all claiming VT if you want to make my life easier.

also town:

DO NOT VOTE - if you vote a townie by accident, with 2 scum and 3 votes required that's game over

[Eggs]

I'd rather scum commit to their claims before I give my actions and reasonings so they can't row back later.

[Eggs]

I had a good dig into the game yesterday, voting and interactions, I came up with three likely scum teams. One included KIY so that's been deleted. Another was exactly the team you're pushing as obvtown. Which isn't reassuring me at all.

[Eggs]

At this point I'm not trusting that you have towns best interests in mind, so forgive me if I don't follow your preferred approach.

[Eggs]

At this point I'm not trusting that you have towns best interests in mind, so forgive me if I don't follow your preferred approach.

This was at dong empire, sorry

[Eggs]

Alright, CC is the only person I was really waiting for, and I'm assuming VT by the fact she hasn't objected yet.

I'm cop, and I have an inno on otter and a guilty on pema.

I think we should think between CC and Dong today while everyone is here to contribute, and i don't see why we shouldn't lynch between them too unless we need the extra discussion time.

[Eggs]

Out of the four reads Dong has given, the only three that have been tested are wrong. A mix of BoP and that yucky attempt to set up an otter->imperator mislynch finish.

CC and pema had this weird thing going on with CC shielding pema and ending with pema throwing random 'still think CC is sus' comments out. Don't know which way to read that.

I would have expected scum!dong to read my day 2 attitude to otter as a cop claim. Unless it's far less obvious than I thought. Why am I not dead or roleblocked?

Both of you have been townreading pema.

[Eggs]

I knew imperator was town. I read his interaction with robb in day 1 and i thought he was scum. That was when i posted the readlist. Whatever he was doing was antitown.

Yet when i read his iso again, i realized that what he was doing, while hindered town in the long run, wasnt done with an anti town intention.

Let me explain it this way. He was doing bad things with good intentions. He didnt know they would be a hinderance later on, and thats why he pressed on.

Thats why when it came to the lynch time, i wanted an otter lynch instead of imperator lynch. I didnt have any solid evidence otter was scum at the moment, but i was going by robb's read and i thought i would be able to make associations based on his flip. This of course never happened.

You say you were townreading imperator.

If we lynch otter, what are your reads resulting from green and red respectively? Appreciate lack of time but indication of who is in your head would be useful.

Green pretty much means imperator is confirmed scum. I doubt this is the case though. If this happens, i'll explain why that is, but for clarification, his actions day 1 (if otter is town) suggest that he may be trying to kill off otter and then blame robb for that. Again, doubt it, so i wont think too much about it.
If he is red, then i'll have to sort between cc and pema, and im pretty sure we can win from there.

You're scumreading imperator in a town!otter world there.

What?

[Eggs]

Dong/pema is still likely btw. Talk more tomorrow.

Why "likely"?

[Eggs]

OK

1) I don't think you are.
2) She isn't.
3) to work out who was being read by who. Either to work out who to lynch or to work out who to kill. To be seeking consensus or to appear to be seeking consensus.

[Eggs]

You have to realize at the time i thought pema was probably town. This meant i reduced it to a otter/cc or a impera/cc situation, the latter i found unlikely. Since i was sure imperator was town by that point, the only other likely possibility was otter/cc, which i tried to push. If i was wrong, then my read would have been wrong, which would have meant imperator scum, which i didnt consider
As
i
say
in the
quote.
I dont know how you people are being confused by the slightest thing. I can understand cc feigning it, but you i dont.

Leading questions and telling me I'm an idiot. Do you really think this is the best way of arguing?

I think the answer I'm getting from you as town, I need you to say it though. Otherwise I'll just townread everyone for the things they would say as town.

[Eggs]

The way you're interacting has been rubbing me up the wrong way since you joined. I'm trying very hard not to let that affect how i'm reading you but it's making my head hurt.

Getting a result last night and the KIY NK really knocked me sideways, and I haven't caught up yet. I apologise if my responses are not thorough and considered at this point.

[Eggs]

Yeah that's fine. I'm casing you both regardless. Unfortunately I had prepared to argue pema vs KIY but that's no longer necessary so you'll need to give me time to catch up.

[Eggs]

My day 2 play makes far more sense if you realise I've peeked at otter at that point. I can't anywhere see pema indicating a zeebu clear, the read was pretty static from d1 to d2.

At work for another few hours. I'll probably have time to splurge a couple of angles today and the rest tomorrow.

[Eggs]

As much notes for me as anything else.

Pema interactions/reads with Zeebu/Dong and CC. Voting movements excluded, to come later (along with other things)

361 townread zeebu 363 but just a soft reading
543 not sure about cc
728 asks why zeebu wants to get rid of cc
761 this is an interesting sequence. CC defends pema (pema probably knew it was (2) so no sweat). Zeebu says pema may have thought it was (3) and it was a mistake. Pema says she thought it was (3).
863 leaning to town zeebu/dong

Zeebu/Dong interactions/reads with pema
70 votes pema (L-2)
875 good feeling, can't pin it down
884 bad lynch due to associations
933 pema is town

CC interactions/reads with pema
732 townreading pema
898 asks why pema sheeping cc but finds cc sus

Not sure what to make of that weird fake hammer thing. Why would zeebu think pema thought it was L-1? Did he have more information and knew how pema was going to react? Why did pema say 'oops' rather than 'i knew it was l-2' which is by far the easier way out. Seems like whichever of CC or zeebu was scum is trying some distancing. But which one.

Zeebu didn't even note pema apart from jumping on the early wagon and letting it sit until near the end of d1. Putting partner at L-2 shows balls if that's svs.

Dong and CC both town-read pema for not very much (lack of scumminess).

[Eggs]

wolfcub

(1):

LuckyOtter

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Robbnva

TTTT

(1):

Imperator

Zeebu

(1):

Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting (5):

wolfcub

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

,

TTTT

,

Zeebu

wolfcub

(1):

LuckyOtter

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Robbnva

pema22

(1):

TTTT

TTTT

(1):

Imperator

Zeebu

(1):

Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting (4):

wolfcub

,

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

,

Zeebu

pema22

(3):

TTTT

,

LuckyOtter

,

Zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

,

Imperator

Zeebu

(1):

Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting (3):

wolfcub

,

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

pema22

(3):

TTTT

,

LuckyOtter

,

Zeebu

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

,

Imperator

Not Voting (4):

Jocus Aevorum

,

wolfcub

,

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

,

Imperator

pema22

(2):

TTTT

,

Zeebu

Robbnva

(1):

LuckyOtter

Not Voting (4):

Jocus Aevorum

,

wolfcub

,

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

Imperator

(1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(1):

LuckyOtter

pema22

(1):

Zeebu

Not Voting (4):

Jocus Aevorum

,

wolfcub

,

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

,

Imperator

Imperator

(1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(1):

LuckyOtter

pema22

(1):

Zeebu

Not Voting (4):

Jocus Aevorum

,

Eggs

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(2):

TTTT

,

Eggs

LuckyOtter

(2):

Robbnva

,

Imperator

Robbnva

(1):

LuckyOtter

pema22

(1):

Zeebu

Not Voting (3):

Jocus Aevorum

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(4):

TTTT

,

Eggs

,

Robbnva

,

Zeebu

Robbnva

(2):

LuckyOtter

,

Imperator

Not Voting (3):

Jocus Aevorum

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(4):

TTTT

,

Eggs

,

Robbnva

,

Zeebu

Robbnva

(3):

LuckyOtter

,

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting (2):

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

,

Robbnva

,

Zeebu

Robbnva

(3):

LuckyOtter

,

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Eggs

Not Voting (2):

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(3):

TTTT

,

Robbnva

,

Zeebu

ClearlyClarity

(2):

Eggs

,

LuckyOtter

Robbnva

(2):

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

Not Voting (2):

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

Imperator

(3):

Robbnva

,

Zeebu

,

ClearlyClarity

Robbnva

(3):

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

,

pema22

ClearlyClarity

(2):

Eggs

,

LuckyOtter

Not Voting (1):

TTTT

Robbnva

(5):

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

,

pema22

,

LuckyOtter

,

Robbnva

<-- LYNCH

Imperator

(2):

Zeebu

,

ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(2):

Eggs

,

TTTT

Jocus Aevorum

(1):

Eggs

Not Voting (6):

Imperator

,

LuckyOtter

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

,

Jocus Aevorum

,

Zeebu

LuckyOtter

(1):

Imperator

Eggs

(1):

ClearlyClarity

Jocus Aevorum

(1):

Eggs

Not Voting (4):

LuckyOtter

,

Zeebu

,

Jocus Aevorum

,

pema22

Eggs

(1):

ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Zeebu

Jocus Aevorum

(1):

Eggs

Not Voting (4):

LuckyOtter

,

Imperator

,

Jocus Aevorum

,

pema22

Jocus Aevorum

(2):

Eggs

,

Imperator

Eggs

(1):

ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Zeebu

pema22

(1):

LuckyOtter

Not Voting (2):

Jocus Aevorum

,

pema22

Jocus Aevorum

(3):

Imperator

,

ClearlyClarity

,

pema22

pema22

(2):

LuckyOtter

,

Eggs

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Zeebu

Not Voting (1):

Jocus Aevorum

Zeebu

(3):

Eggs

,

Imperator

,

ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(1):

Zeebu

pema22

(1):

LuckyOtter

Jocus Aevorum

(1):

pema22

Not Voting (1):

Jocus Aevorum

ClearlyClarity

(2):

Zeebu

,

TheKingInYellow

TheKingInYellow

(2):

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

pema22

(1):

LuckyOtter

Zeebu

(1):

Imperator

Not Voting (1):

Eggs

Imperator

(2):

LuckyOtter

,

Eggs

TheKingInYellow

(2):

pema22

,

ClearlyClarity

ClearlyClarity

(1):

TheKingInYellow

Dongempire

(1):

Imperator

Not Voting (1):

Dongempire

Imperator

(3):

LuckyOtter

,

Eggs

,

pema22

LuckyOtter

(1):

Dongempire

TheKingInYellow

(1):

ClearlyClarity

Dongempire

(1):

Imperator

Not Voting (1):

TheKingInYellow

Imperator

(4):

LuckyOtter

,

Eggs

,

pema22

,

TheKingInYellow

<--LYNCH

LuckyOtter

(1):

Dongempire

TheKingInYellow

(1):

ClearlyClarity

Dongempire

(1):

Imperator

[Eggs]

Pema gets run up early, with zeebu on third. CC doesn't move in response. Whatever read on that is probably limited by the near-RVS status of the game at that point, it's easy distance for zeebu and there's no need to panic for CC.

Pema fades back down to one vote, zeebu sitting there for a while, before putting L-1 on imperator.

CC gets to 2 votes and pema puts Robb to 3.

pema is on-wagon for the lynch and zeebu and cc are off. Pema has not voted with either at this point.

pema joins CC on the jocus wagon at either fakehammer or L-1 depending whose perspective you are from.

CC leaves and then rejoins pema on the jocus wagon again.

Pema joins the imperator lynch. Pema is on-wagon, and CC and Dong are off.

I'm not seeing much distance between pema and either cc or zeebu at this point. Zeebu was on the early pema (3) wagon and cc and pema were matching votes more than I have been led to expect, but not on lynches and both are probably within their scum-ranges.

[Eggs]

Zeebu voted didn't really push pema at that point. It fits with the classic distancing idea.

CC/Pema matching votes was after Otter first discussed VCA so could well be in response.

[Eggs]

Note to self - lynch people who don't vote much day 1.

[Eggs]

If scum CC/pema, the town are:

Eggs (imp/kiy/pema)
Otter
Dong (VT) (otter/imp/cc)
KIY (not cop from the hypo, might be JK, but why he do a 3xinvestigative hypo as JK? and why wasn't TTTT jailed?)

Presumably they roleblocked Otter. Possibly they thought Dong would read me/otter as the scum-team? I can't see any other reason for the KIY nk. That sort of fits.

Eggs (imp/kiy/pema)
Otter
CC (imp/otter/dong)
KIY (probably vt as above)

Same logic probably applies. Otter becomes the lynch target. Here there's more chance of me not being roleblocked though.

Unless there's a read on Otter as PR then the arguments for the NK are similar except the chance of scum dong is 50% higher than scum cc due to roleblocking considerations (i.e. if you look at it as a random shot).

I also think there's more chance that scum cc would stab Dong on general principles to clear out a dangerous townie and frame otter. Dong is less likely to stab CC as it wouldn't frame otter so hard and CC is not quite so much more experienced than KIY.

Obviously ignoring WIFOM.

pedit sorry for lack of spoiler

[Eggs]

I need to go through isos for general reads then I'll play dong

[Eggs]

Do you?

[Eggs]

I may be a trash scrub player but I hope my input is worth more than zero, in which case you Vs dong is what needs to be discussed before I die. And if they leave me alive and kill otter and he hasn't talked out you Vs dong then we are up the hypothetical without a paddle.

[Eggs]

So sure, discuss pema. But there's no way people should call a halt to other discussion as you seem to imply by saying 'that's what needs to be argued' rather than 'that also needs to be argued'

[Eggs]

I'll address pema after I've finished on you two cos that's my priority rn and I'm already far too slow.

[Eggs]

I mean, yeah, me vs. Dong is a thing, but clearly he prefers to take a backseat until you figure it out on your own. We'll duke it out in LyLo, and in the meantime, it's you vs. pema, plus any other contribution you can offer about Dong and me before you go down.

Strictly worse than duking it out now surely? Why wait until one town is dead and can't contribute? All the material is there.

[Eggs]

I'll be done with my thoughts this evening and I would really like you to give as much of your argument as possible before end of day because is be much happier with otter to bounce things off before he is inevitably nked.

Pedit yeah sorry, I'm sure he'll be more forthcoming when I've stopped being lazy.

[Eggs]

Alright, last one.

Day 1 zeebu seems pretty solid to me on discussions, at least first 20 pages. He's contributing more than his last scumgame, faded out towards the end. I like the pema vote for town at that point, although not as strongly as I would have later in the day. I'm not sure if I read the parking of the vote there as a good thing (anti-pema) or a bad thing (stagnation, lack of effort) but I partly blame Robb for that.

I'm feeling better about him after reading through again, he's striking me as interested in the game. I think the pre-emptive VT claim, although frustrating as I wasn't planning on forcing him to claim and nobody had declared intent, probably points more to town (VT claims do so in general I guess).

After Dong switch-in I'm having a harder time reading. Definitely pushing the game, can't argue with that. What worries me is that it's pushing it in entirely the wrong direction which means I'm worried that a decent scum player would probably play exactly like Dong did. I have also had bad experiences in other mafia-type games where tonally this sort of thing comes from scum more than town.

CC had an absolutely nothing day 1 as acknowledged. Don't like 139 or 538-540.

Improves day 2, but feels a bit sheepy at times - couple of things jumped out, appealed to 'as someone said earlier' in 729 and 770 is a sheep and echoing earlier comments about pema being satisfied with gamestate. Another at 892. Following wagons. 898 on pema is a bit weak.

To be honest, after re-reading, day 1 is pushing zeebu towards town for me, and I have to give at least a nod to TTTT's early/mid reads. Robb i'm writing off, KIY preferred CC to Zeebu.

Believe it or not, I've been reading and writing this post for nearly 90 minutes.

[Eggs]

I terms of what to do today, if people aren't happy with me vs pema fine, lets argue that out. But if we are fine, then is there really any benefit to extending the argument Dong/CC to 11 days (from now)? Only if we feel we need more time surely.

I read somewhere that dragging things out is to the detriment of reads (e.g. town winrate went down when day 1 went from 7 to 10 days) and 2 heads is better than one. So isn't it better to thrash it out now and get the game over with knowing that pema is the day 4 lynch anyway? Put us all out of our misery of uncertainty.

I just don't see a reason to vote pema, lose otter, then make a decision. I know if it's me that survives I'd just whack down my vote on the first minute of day 4, so would mean we just went through an unnecessary night phase.

[Eggs]

I said that the possibility of either Imp or CC being scum is very high, Eggs called me out on this saying that it shouldn't be higher than normal odds. Of course, I knew that Dong (zeebu) was already cleared to be townie, making the odds that Imp or CC were scum higher, but not everyone knew this.

Actually I just asked you if you were referring to the normal odds or if you had a read. Genuine question. You just retreated to 'no read'. I would definitely have preferred it if you'd said 'higher than normal odds' as it would have indicated you were actually doing some detective work.

Eggs said that after the night was over, and he almost definitely said that with the new information had after the night was over and the kill was already done so he could fakeclaim cop. I assume he claimed reading me as guilty because I have been seen as scummy/suspicious, and as he knows of my little experience I guess I am easy to target.

If scum is me + otter (which I assume you are going to be arguing) then I would most definitely have killed or roleblocked CC after that no-reason townread on you being her strongest read.

If scum is me + CC that's more of a fair point. Is that what you're reading?

[Eggs]

Dong:
does 1014 answer your questions 1 and 3?

[Eggs]

1) inconsistent and unmotivated voting - not demonstrating a clear pattern of reads and/or not attempting to lynch in line with them, just sheeping a bunch of wagons
2) that's lashing out in frustration. I expect he was conflating unpleasant behaviour with scummy behaviour to some extent there, or mixing motivations to lynch scummy people with lynching people he didn't like.

[Eggs]

Didn't you want to lynch him?

[Eggs]

Would you be able to make a few points for scum Zeebu/Dong before EoD please CC?

[Eggs]

I know the feeling!

Otter, a day left, do you want more time or are you happy to make a call and place votes?

CC was my assumption at start of day and thats firmed up a bit.

[Eggs]

Also are people lynching me/pema or cc/dong today?

[Eggs]

i guess scum wouldn't concede either way so may as well make it me/pema? happy with either tbh.

VOTE: pema

[Eggs]

Eh, if I survive the night I'm not changing my mind on who I'm lynching so if you've got an argument place it now.

[Eggs]

UNVOTE: pema

Will be around to hammer I'm sure.

[Eggs]

VOTE: pema

[Eggs]

Interesting one. It was almost too obvious and we overlooked it for that reason.

Thanks for the game folks, D1 was a bit of a mess but otherwise enjoyable.

[Eggs]

Also thank you for the modding again Plot.

[Eggs]

Pema got the short end of the stick with first game scum, but CC was a good partner