Newbie 1948 (Game Over)

Karnage
Mafia Scum
 
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Post Post #700  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:54 pm

In post 699, MadAlfred wrote:I don’t think I’ve convinced anyone of anything all game. I’ll learn more from the great beyond anyway. Less stress. Lower stakes. Front row seats to the massacre. Karnage I JUST now noticed you’re in South Jersey. I’m in North/Middle Jersey! We are brothers in arms! Jersey Strong!

I'm across the river from Philadelphia. My definition of north/south jersey is probably a bit different than yours. Central jersey to me is anything above Burlington County and North jersey starts when I can see the refineries from the turnpike lol

on a serious note if you are town you need to try and convince us of that. Accepting a mis-lynch (assuming you're town) puts us at 2 straight days of lylo which is a tough hole for town to dig itself out from

Dyrenz
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Post Post #701  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:37 pm

For real though, I kinda gave up on getting out of a mislynch in my first game and scum went on to win that game. I always partially assumed my poor play contributed to their victory

NaCl
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Post Post #702  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:59 pm

MadAlfred, do you want to actually say what you think about people rather than what you observe about them?

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #703  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:59 pm

I don't have access to a computer right now, so my ability to multi quote is limited. In any case, this is my stance towards a Salt/Mad team.

Pros:
-Salt never actually directly scumread Mad until post 503

While it is true salt talked about mad in his entrance and subsequently asked him questions throughout the day, he never actually scum read him per say before saying he was ok with lynching me or mad. The closest I saw to it was the wording "Everyone's #2 suspect mad" within the entrance post. Normally this wouldn't be such an issue by itself, but combined with the second pro, this small detail becomes more important.

-Regardless of the Mad read, Salt's other approaches towards other players looks like a scum partner trying to divert attention.
During day one, Salt initially pushed comet and by proxy Karnage in his comet/karnage scum team. Comet at the time was the direct counter wagon to mad. What stands out two is his response to Comet where he admits he got the intial timeline wrong.
In post 397, NaCl wrote:
1. Are you talking about ? That didn't really address all your previous posts. You feel like you're overexplaining to be safe.
2. Never mind, I'm wrong here. But I don't think you delayed your vote. I was actually referring between and , but now I realize that there were only few minutes between those posts, so you did vote right away.
3. Meh.
4. I'm also probably wrong here. For some reason I thought that this happened right after Karnage was posting for the first time, after replacing in, but he'd been talking beforehand. I'm not really happy about his push away from you, and I felt the interaction was kind of fake. But now that I've got the timeline right I need to re-evaluate.

.


Salt never ends up reevulating this though. The reason why is that comet is thrown into 503 along with pine as alternative lynches salt would be ok with (along side, well, just not talking about it any further after my response to his team). Then though, admitting he has to rebook at things, he shifts the focus from his read to comets dunn read.

In post 401, NaCl wrote:
In post 399, Cometbright wrote:Oh my thoughts on Salt's post:
In post 397, NaCl wrote:Meh.

Where in the hell did this Karnage-Comet scumteam theory come from?

So am I still the top scum in your eyes? You conceded most of your points but do you still think I'm the scummiest?

Also I would love to know how you read Dunn as town, can you explain which of his posts read town enough so to overcome the scummy things he has done?


I'd sort of been thinking over it when I was skimming over things yesterday, though I didn't bring it up. I kind of just want to flip you to get a better read on the game. But I didn't really like Karnage trying to deflect attention away from you on his entrance.

As for whether you're scum, I'm going to re-evaluate that later today, too much effort for me to do right now.

I don't see what Dunn's done that's scummy. I see what you've written in , could you explain why scum would be more likely to do any of those things than town? Because I pretty much agree with most of what Dunn had been saying.


By townreading Dunn, scum!salt can keep his read going against comet without having to fix his intial read. This is an important dynamic to consider because now town!comet has to justify her reads rather than scum!salt who can much easily play devil's advocate. Even after this, salt does not end up rebooking at comet before 503, the post where he declares who he wants to lynch.

His vote on me also reads to me as opportunistic given the context of him subtly trying to save his partner.

If you combine this point with the one above, this would allow a scum!Salt a chance to save scum!mad while not looking bad if he ends up having to bus scum!mad. He can claim to have been 'on' him the entire time while in fact, actually trying to get other lynches. Salt couldn't also lynch dunn due to having to town read him in his interactions with comet.

----------------------------------------

That said, I'm having issues over
Mad posting and content makes it hard to compare the behavior of which he went after him than compared to comet. It took a lot of teeth pulling to get a lot of game information out of Mad. A lot of us were waiting for him to post reads for example, salt included. This is why I'm not holding it against him for not analyzing mad intial read list further because, well, mad didnt have a clear scum read which makes it harder to dissect.. This also could explain pro 1 a bit more, but I'm not willing to dismiss that point over this one due to pro 2.

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #704  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:02 pm

I also realized that salt talked about coaching and comet did in her post, so let me just say:

I think it is a fallacy to think that a player should be or shouldn't be receiving coaching and making reads off that. Let's say pine is scum here. Pine is apperently busy with real life, so he would also be harder press to coach his teammate (since we know the other SEs are town from flips). However, he is SE, and therefore by comet analysis cannot be scum with mad.

At its heart, it's really a WIFOM logic that I personally think will be more infuriating to use than it is worth.

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #705  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:04 pm

Also how Karnage is handling mad is townie even though I didnt see the two together if scum!mad is true

Karnage
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Post Post #706  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:09 pm

how do you account for NaCl voting mad to open day 2?

Karnage
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Post Post #707  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:13 pm

@Dyrenz:
In post 697, Karnage wrote:
In post 695, Dyrenz wrote:Me? I'm willing to state intent, but I think Comet already did that. I think she's just waiting to get a well-rounded response from Pine

So what are you waiting for?

In post 698, Karnage wrote:What I mean is that comet is waiting to hear from Pine before she hammers. What’s stopping you from stating intent before then?

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #708  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:13 pm

In post 706, Karnage wrote:how do you account for NaCl voting mad to open day 2?

Scum could very easily have decided to bus mad today. It wasn't exactly like mad look good after the dunn flip. Besides, if we are correct about scum mad, then scum knows they have to win the long game by themselves. I don't think it is out of any scums playbook here.

Karnage
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Post Post #709  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:23 pm

I guess that could be true but it still seems a stretch to think he'd open the wagon on his scum partner right away.

if i were scum and I was willing to sacrifice my partner in this situation. I would have had mad claim a guilty on somebody to either A) buy a mislynch and throw him to the wolves day 3 or B) draw out a town PR via counter claim. even if that doesn't work you are no worse off

just bussing him straight out has such a low return on investment

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #710  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:31 pm

In post 709, Karnage wrote:I guess that could be true but it still seems a stretch to think he'd open the wagon on his scum partner right away.

if i were scum and I was willing to sacrifice my partner in this situation. I would have had mad claim a guilty on somebody to either A) buy a mislynch and throw him to the wolves day 3 or B) draw out a town PR via counter claim. even if that doesn't work you are no worse off

just bussing him straight out has such a low return on investment

Considering he (mad) hasn't actually claim yet, that's still entirely possible

Karnage
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Post Post #711  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:38 pm

Maybe it’s time to force the issue then

Don’t know that we’re going to get anything from Pine so maybe Dyrenz or Comet should just declare their intent to hammer

Karnage
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Post Post #712  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:40 pm

It’s early in the day but I’m not optimistic we’re going to do anything but go in circles until the deadline is on us

HoldenGolden
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Post Post #713  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:43 pm

Let's see, if they intent tonight/tomorrow morning, that gives us 4 days to sort mad if he claims anything surprising. That also gives Pine more time.

I'm ok with it at this point. I don't really see anything else scummier than mad's slot right now.

Dyrenz
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Post Post #714  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:14 pm

In post 707, Karnage wrote:@Dyrenz:
In post 697, Karnage wrote:
In post 695, Dyrenz wrote:Me? I'm willing to state intent, but I think Comet already did that. I think she's just waiting to get a well-rounded response from Pine

So what are you waiting for?

In post 698, Karnage wrote:What I mean is that comet is waiting to hear from Pine before she hammers. What’s stopping you from stating intent before then?


Honestly? Nothing!

MadAlfred, please roleclaim, lest I hammer thee!

MadAlfred
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Post Post #715  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:21 pm

So, he’s declared his intent... that implies I should announce my role if I have one? Apart from base-townie?

Karnage
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Post Post #716  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:30 pm

Claim role (vanilla, cop, roleblocker, etc...) and alignment (townie/mafia)

MadAlfred
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Post Post #717  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Town doctor. Healed Comet in night one.

Karnage
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Post Post #718  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:47 pm

UNVOTE:

Karnage
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Post Post #719  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:48 pm

I don’t know that I believe you. Why protect comet?

Karnage
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Post Post #720  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:49 pm

any counter claims should hold off for a second. We need to talk about which roles should/shouldn't counter claim

Karnage
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Post Post #721  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:54 pm

ABC
MafiaMafia RoleblockerMafia RolecopMafia Goon
Row 1Town Cop and Town NeapolitanTown Cop and Town TrackerTown Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2Town Jailkeeper and Town DoctorTown Jailkeeper and Town TrackerTown Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3Town Cop and Town DoctorTown Neapolitan and Town DoctorTown Tracker and Town Doctor


Doctor can be present with every other power role so the only possible counter claim is a doctor but I don't think they should counter yet (if there is one)

I'm not buying the claim. I need to go back and look at day 1 again.

Karnage
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Post Post #722  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 5:58 pm

Why did it take 25 minutes between 715 an 717?

MadAlfred
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Post Post #723  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:02 pm

I manage some old buildings and I had a roofer on site looking at a clogged scupper/french drain. He rolled in at 6:35 and just left. I healed comet because she gave me the strongest town read in day one. Felt like I could trust her and also felt like some were gunning for her early. Something about her participation also made me think she had another unique role.

Karnage
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Post Post #724  (ISO)  » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:20 pm

Doc is the safest fakeclaim though

There’s 55% chance it won’t be countered then factor in scum knows which column we are in it can jump to 67% safe

If you’re the town doctor why were you so willing to let yourself get lynched?

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