Newbie 1965 | River | Over

[faüstiv]

here we go

VOTE: Gjt

this is probably scum

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Nothing scummy about that now was there

actively lurking is a scumtell in my book

[faüstiv]

Nothing scummy about that now was there

actively lurking is a scumtell in my book

Huh? Wow your full of nonsense aren't you and dont quite get what your getting out other than making yourself look like an idiot

why are you so defensive?

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It's not defensive, it's me replying to your rubbish. To be lurking would mean I would have to have been hanging around before your comment.

Blatant scum, neither

how do I know you weren't?

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actually yeah you probably weren't lol.

damn I responded to this game fast. scratch that.

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Nothing scummy about that now was there

actively lurking is a scumtell in my book

Huh? Wow your full of nonsense aren't you and dont quite get what your getting out other than making yourself look like an idiot

still, this seems unnecessarily aggressive when you only had one vote on you at the time.

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ignore the german U, faustiv was already taken.

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I'm not, this is my 4th? game on this website.

I'm pretty new to the concept of forum mafia but I've played tonnes of live mafia games.

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Question.
How many SEs are now in newbie games?
I played some games with 5 SEs, but there are only 3 SEs here.
Which is awesome,

because there are only 2 players who can do reading here

what's that supposed to mean?

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I actually quite like Gjt’s reaction.

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hmmmmmmm

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VOTE: Map Wolf

real vote

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VOTE: Map Wolf

page 2 reads list looks fake

I'll admit it's very arbitrary as it's mostly just me guessing off of few posts.
But could you elaborate on why you find it fake?

Because I've played a ton of mafia and I've learned to be able to discern awkward "trying too hard" qualities that are generally more likely to come from scum

First, you felt compelled to explain

why

you were posting a readslist in the first place, "since people aren't that active". Theres nothing wrong with posting a readslist, but introducing it like that it's as if you're defending yourself already against an imaginary question of why you were posting it.

Second you take very tentative and weak stances on basically everyone. "Neutral" is not an alignment and not a read. Everyone is either town or scum and if you can't tell me how you feel about them yet then you're not really giving reads at all. Even your scumread is very hedgey, "leaning somewhat scum" reads like you're afraid to make real waves by calling somebody out.

Third, why even comment on players who haven't posted yet? Everybody knows we hadn't posted. Again it's just awkward - sometimes that comes from townies who don't really know what they're doing yet but in my experience it's decent odds of scum.

Finally it's odd that your strongest townread is GBJ, who I actually also find scummy. What makes you think scum couldn't be aggressive? For someone who seems generally hesitant to call everybody town or scum it's weird that you feel most comfortable about that slot in particular.

What do you think of Map Wolf’s 38

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Since people aren't that active, I think I might as well do a read list:

Faustiv,

neutral for now. Is kind of aggressive, but I don't think that's all that alignment indicative at least so far.

Gjr,

neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone, but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched. (Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)

Blatant,

neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone. Yet.

Titus,

V/LA for now.

TGS,

Neutral.

GBJ,

Town-leaning. Seems a bit aggressive for scum.

Rise,

not posted so far.

GuiltyLion

hasn't posted either.

Do you think GBJ has been ‘direct’ or ‘disfriendly’?

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yo

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Gilded seems a lot more knowledgeable and less scattered than she was in previous game we played together.

have you been swotting that wiki?

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alright what games have you been reading?

don't refer to ongoing games btw.

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gaybaby is town

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also blatant scum is town

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tone mainly (92).

also your play is kinda capricious and you're not afraid to place votes. i don't think that comes from newbie scum; they tend to be more reserved.

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gaybaby is town

That's just a sentence I never thought id see strung together

wow that's rude

why are you trying to antagonize me anyway? i put you down as town on my list

innit just.

put me on your townlist, i'll treat you right.

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thegildedsun is pinging me hard

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this is way different from her last game

like i get she may have read more games and the wiki etc.

but something seems off

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this is way different from her last game

like i get she may have read more games and the wiki etc.

but something seems off

Honestly I don't blame you even if this is about myself. I'm not quite sure where this sudden confidence of mine sprang from. Everything just kind of clicked, at least in terms of staying confident behind a vote or accusation. In the beginning (last game) I was dumbfounded on how people were able to draw reads from posts based entirely on town but now it seems plausible. I feel like even though I'm not playing aggressive, I'm trying to ask more questions than to accuse because I feel as though that's not fair (I didn't like it when it was done to me, I appreciated when I was given a chance to explain myself) I do feel like I'm trying to be too on top of things and it looks like I'm trying to take control so I can certainly see where you are coming from.

ok then.

have you learned anything from this game so far?

[faüstiv]

ok.

do you scumread or townread anyone based on said wagons?

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hmmmmm ok

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What do you think of Map Wolf’s 38

didn't like it. Commenting on GBJ the sake of commenting but not drawing any conclusions about alignment. I was kinda wondering if it was a scum-scum coaching interaction like "hey buddy don't come in so hot" or whether it's s-t like "I want to comment on your post but don't worry I'm not scumreading you", but either way it looks disingenuous from Map Wolf. And it's also not really congruent with the mindset that Map Wolf is scumreading and voting Gjt

just for the record I didn't like 27 either

yeah exactly.

That's a rather fast conclusion to be honest.

Not that it makes you scum, since that would perhaps be a bit aggressive.

the bolded bit is really off, shadethrowing a slot but then stating that it doesn't make him scum, like what point is he trying to make here?

he was really quick to vote Gjt off the bat, calls them neutral/scum in 42:

Gjr, neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone,

but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched. (Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)

again this bolded bit 'he might be scum but he may not be because of this' is more likely to come from mafia than town when making an FOS.

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At the moment I agree with faustiv on GBJ/Blatant Scum slots being town and therefore I will grant faustiv a D1 townread as well, though I get the feeling they're gonna be that "10% chance of deep wolf" slot that I randomly get paranoid about from time to time

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ok.

do you scumread or townread anyone based on said wagons?

He scumreads me for selfvoting, because it is anti-town.
VOTE: BS

bruh momentum is picking up
anyways heres an updated list
blatant scum: as sus as ever
map wolf:

more townish than earlier

faustiv: town
thegildedsun: town
guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109
rise: leaning town
gjt: town

map wolf's last post was 52

your first read list was 64

this makes no sense.

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ok.

do you scumread or townread anyone based on said wagons?

He scumreads me for selfvoting, because it is anti-town.
VOTE: BS

bruh momentum is picking up
anyways heres an updated list
blatant scum: as sus as ever
map wolf:

more townish than earlier

faustiv: town
thegildedsun: town
guiltylion: how would you think blatant scum is town after 109
rise: leaning town
gjt: town

map wolf's last post was 52

your first read list was 64

this makes no sense.

can i not change my mind? i can think someone else is being more scummy while still having a scumread on wolf

guessing you reread them. what's pinging towny?

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Since people aren't that active, I think I might as well do a read list:

Faustiv,

neutral for now. Is kind of aggressive, but I don't think that's all that alignment indicative at least so far.

Gjr,

neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone, but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched. (Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)

Blatant,

neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone. Yet.

Titus,

V/LA for now.

TGS,

Neutral.

GBJ,

Town-leaning. Seems a bit aggressive for scum.

Rise,

not posted so far.

GuiltyLion

hasn't posted either.

Do you think GBJ has been ‘direct’ or ‘disfriendly’?

He made two posts prior to my 42. That's one post calling gjt "sus af" and another saying "ok maybe gjt isn't as sus as i say". So yes pretty direct, maybe not disfriendly.

gaybaby is town

If you're going to conclude that (and another conclusion in 95) then it's hard to really take it for much without some elaboration.

Ok

I asked that question because in Newbie 1757 you had a slight scumread on a player because he was ‘direct’ and ‘disfriendly’ and you were town in that game. It just pinged me as odd that you TR a player in this game for similar reasons.

eager to see your case on GBJ now.

also I’ll elaborate on that read when I get back at a computer.

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when I get back on computer.

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my read on Map Wolf mainly comes from their earlier posts. I don't know if there's an actual term for it, but let me explain.

38

That's a rather fast conclusion to be honest.

Not that it makes you scum, since that would perhaps be a bit aggressive.

sometimes when scum are making an FOS that they add something at the end like 'but I could be wrong' or 'it's my opinion so don't read too much into it' etc. That's what Wolf is doing here; he's shadethrowing Gjt then counterpoints it by saying 'not that it makes you scum because...'

Scum do this because they need to appease to town. Town aren't scared of being questioned or accused. Scum are. Scum FOSses are made up and they don't like being questioned on it. I mean town do it but town are less likely to add something that mitigates their FOS at the end of their statement than scum.

He does it again in his readlist in 42.

Faustiv, neutral for now. Is kind of aggressive,

but I don't think that's all that alignment indicative at least so far.

Gjr, neutral leaning somewhat scum. Seems defensive in tone,

but this could also be town too afraid of being lynched.

(Which you shouldn't be all that much, since being lynched early doesn't lose the game)
Blatant, neutral. Some stuff posted doesn't make sense to me like 24. Hasn't actually tried to read anyone. Yet.
Titus, V/LA for now.
TGS, Neutral.
GBJ, Town-leaning. Seems a bit aggressive for scum.
Rise, not posted so far.
GuiltyLion hasn't posted either.

I could see what Wolf said in 126 as a possibility, that the readlist was made for convenience sake for future reference,so I'm not really looking into the fact he made a readlist itself but rather the content of it.

He also townreads GBJ yet in another game claimed he scumread a player for a similar playstyle. Wolf was town in that game.

I agree with a lot that GuiltyLion said about the slot.

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reason for tr on GayBabyJAilor is that, whilst he is being scumread, his playstyle or tone hasn't changed. He's not panicking. He's a new player and I think GBJ as scum here would have wilted a bit but I'm seeing no signs of that.

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also i lied about my blatantscum TR. I think he's kinda null actually, I just wanted to see how people would react if I TR a slot that was being shadethrown; see if anyone panicked.

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I don't agree with that line of thinking.

Thoughts change as the game progresses. You don't have to put a conclusion at the end of each FOS you make. You have to look at the motivations behind the vote and the accusations, the reasoning, to determine whether someone is scum or not.

I would align that sort of thinking with more with scum than town as it shows is that the player is afraid of being questioned when their reads change, even though players changing reads happens in pretty much every game.

[faüstiv]

Ok

I asked that question because in Newbie 1757 you had a slight scumread on a player because he was ‘direct’ and ‘disfriendly’ and you were town in that game. It just pinged me as odd that you TR a player in this game for similar reasons.

eager to see your case on GBJ now.

also I’ll elaborate on that read when I get back at a computer.

That game (I assume you mean 1737 as I didn't participate in 1737) was three years ago. I think I use more reverse psychology thinking right now.

yeah my bad ,that game.

do you have any more recent games?

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alright cool

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Nothing scummy about that now was there

actively lurking is a scumtell in my book

You don't seem to be a newbie.

VLA this weekend.

V/LA noted --P

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

hmmmmmmm

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also i lied about my blatantscum TR. I think he's kinda null actually, I just wanted to see how people would react if I TR a slot that was being shadethrown; see if anyone panicked.

Interesting gambit. What did you learn? How can we trust your other reads?

nothing really. I was hoping for something bigger

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VOTE: TheGildedSun

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VOTE: TheGildedSun

y tho

why not

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I could def see myself voting TGS as well, 171 was a bad post especially since TGS herself isn't voting Map Wolf

key to this game is gonna be finding the townie in Map Wolf/Rise/TGS

what do you make of titus?

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201 kind of comes off as trying hard to justify themself.

201 reads super paranoid town to me. I don’t think that’s contrived.

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Rises progression on the GL/Blatant FOS looks natural too.

moving it into my townpile

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apologies i'll respond to all questions tomorrow; been really busy today.

tomorrow is the start of the weekend so i should have plenty of time to catch up on things.

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Blatant's mindless following on lynching me concerns me. He talks about Rise, but nothing about me. Then votes me.

Faust, what makes you believe it's me? I'm a bit questioning of you at this point. I like your attempts to gamesolve, but there is something wrong. I think I'm going to re-read last game to find the difference.
I am simply attempting to gamesolve.

One thing that I believe might set one off about me is my neutrality but this is just my playstyle, I don't like focusing on lynching one player.

few reasons why I voted you:

I didn't see much attempt at gamesolving in the majority of your posts
your playstyle is different from the previous game we played
i wanted to see how you reacted under pressure

A lot of the posts leading up to my vote were lengthy but lacked substance. I think 60 comes across as a gamesolvey post but 86 for example does not. I think scum when scumhunting can ask questions which really aren't going to be answered in a way which we can determine their alignment. For example in my previous game Farren did this and I called him out on it. He turned out to be scum in the end. The part in question:

And I don't want to be speaking on their behalf and just assuming things, so I'd like to give Jailor a chance to explain. GBJ, what are your first thoughts on this game so far,

and were you confused or unsure in the beginning at all?

I find this bolded question to be really odd and I fail to see what answers it will provide? GBJ is clearly a new player when it comes to forum mafia; we know that from the posts he made early on in the game. I don't see what town!TGS could learn from GBJ by asking this question.

99 is a bit weird too.

If you're not actively acting to gamesolve then you're going to appear suspicious to people. If you give off this vibe that "I'll just leave it to the other players" then it makes you appear like you aren't all in for town victory.

A mafia game won't be "relaxing," in fact that kind of goes against the general feel. Mafia games can get heated and for good reason, it's a social deduction game. Of course a player isn't required to constantly be in the heat but it is important to contribute, especially if you actually are town aligned, and the way you have no interest kind of sets me off in a weird way. But not in a way that makes me feel that you are no doubt scum, at least not yet, because I feel as though that would be too obvious. No, I am just a bit confused on why this is the case.

don't see why TGS brings this point up to an SE and the point itself is kinda weird. why is TGS so focused on gamesolving and not appearing suspicious. it speaks of the mindset that TGS has at that point in the game; trying to gamesolve (which i don't see much of leading up to 99) but also not trying to appear suspicious. i'll probably be able to explain myself better when i properly wake up, but it makes sense in my head.

don't get 107 either, just a load of general statements:

Well this game is really only just beginning and we haven't had any real wagons yet (well, kind of a jump on Map Wolf and now Blatant) but nothing too major. So far I feel like looking into a players prior experience is vital to reading their tone in posts, as what happened to I in the beginning of last game. I'm kind of seeing myself in some of the other players here and trying to put myself into their shoes. I also understand that that can be dangerous too because automatically ruling out someone as mafia just because they are a newer player isn't always a good way to go. We have to consider all possibilities, misdirection is something crucial to scum so we have to work hard to not be fooled.

question was 'have you learned anything from this game so far?' i don't think it's answered here.

110

So far no. I agree with you in terms of GBJ not being scum (reasons stated previously) and same with Blatant. I feel that Blatant has a higher likelyhood of being scum though between the two.

We haven't heard much of anything from Titus as they are V/LA, nor have GuiltyLion or Map Wolf spoken recently. In fact I'd like to hear something from the two of them. There was that big jump on Map Wolf but it seemed a little too quickly agreed upon for my tastes, especially with both Blatant and Guilty jumping on the wagon which I don't fully know how I feel about them yet, I do believe Blatant is most likely town (but can't say for sure yet, too early) and Guilty hasn't spoken enough for me to have drawn any inferences.

gtj being defensive, it was kind of odd how they admitted they were acting slightly off in the beginning but then also clarifying they weren't new to the idea of D1 votes, which makes me think they are town. I feel like mafia would of went along with not having been familiar with the votes, claiming that's where the panic originated from.

I want to know where this TR of blatant scum came from, since it came out of the blue at the time. what made you TR him before post 110?

I now notice that you SR him a bit more in 219.

Blatant's mindless following on lynching me concerns me. He talks about Rise, but nothing about me. Then votes me.

BS also voted Map Wolf in 57, putting him in L2, but you townread him in 110. Why do you FOS him more now that he's voted you when he did exactly the same to Map Wolf?

219 was also a horrible reaction to my vote

Faust, what makes you believe it's me? I'm a bit questioning of you at this point. I like your attempts to gamesolve, but there is something wrong. I think I'm going to re-read last game to find the difference.

I am simply attempting to gamesolve.

One thing that I believe might set one off about me is my neutrality but this is just my playstyle, I don't like focusing on lynching one player.

this is another example of what I said in regards to 99, she seems self aware. why are you so paranoid now votes are on you when you were less so when there were lots of votes were on other players?

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Titus is flying under the radar; too much for my liking considering his posts.

post 23:

You don't seem to be a newbie.

VLA this weekend.

completely contradicts post 174:

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

in live mafia scum do this a lot; fake afk then come in at some point later in the day to say that 'they didn't know the game started' so people townread them as villager. probably not the case in forum mafia, however this does need exploring. why did you make 174 Titus?

183:

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

you claim BS is anti town and that Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic but could come from town, yet vote Map Wolf instead of BS.

vote count at this time was:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
Map Wolf (2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion,
Rise (1): Blatant Scum

Not Voting (3): Gjt, Titus, TheGildedSun

a vote from Titus on BS would put him on L1, so if you think he's anti town, why did you not do so? why did you pick Map Wolf instead?

don't get line of thinking in 230. can you explain that to me?

Glided Sun and BS both have wagons to 3 again.

This suggest Map wolf and GS have the same alignment.

262:

I didn't say they were both town. They could both be scum. The same people, particularly you and faustiv voting the same wagons suggest the same alignment for them.

If they are opposites, then it suggests BS is scum to me.

so where do your thoughts lie?

if you're voting Map Wolf then that suggests you think he is scum. do you think TGS is town? if so why not vote BS. there's no progression to consider here because this post stems from a logical analysis made by Titus in 183.

vote count for reference:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
TheGildedSun (3): faüstiv, Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Map Wolf (1): Titus
GayBabyJailor (1): Gjt

Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

[faüstiv]

BS has also been on 3 wagons. i don't like how easily he's being TR'ed. I don't like Titus' reluctance to vote him either considering his thought process.

[faüstiv]

screw it

VOTE: Blatant Scum

L1

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you should self vote tbh, jigs up pal

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oh is he

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that’s killed my excitement

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That's the most blatant cc search I have seen.

are you ccing?

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fuck sake our docs dead

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other players of suspicion:

faustiv I really didn't like that L-1 vote especially claiming "Blatant Scum is easily being townread" when I was literally the only person townreading and defending Blatant when he had 3 other players voting him and another (Rise) posturing to vote him. And also why would being easily townread be scum-indicative?? If he's scum then there's only one other buddy to defend him. Widely being townread is

usually

a town-tell as it generally means the scum are townreading players they don't want to touch / don't think can be plausibly scumread or pushed.

TGS still has not done anything of consequence this game

Rise we'll have to see what she does today. Only real pushes yesterday were on town.

you’re misrepping me.

I didnt vote BS because he was easily being TRed. When I was casing Titus I noticed something off with their interactions so I wanted to vote either of them because I thought they could be a scumteam. Titus was unattainable yesterday so I chose BS.

I’m on phone so I will expand on this later.

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Also, no matter how antitown they are, you never hammer an un-CC'd doctor claim on D1.

That's just flat out wrong. I'm not trading our doctor, if one even exists, for outed scum. If BS was scum, my move was very optimal. Based on BS's play, hammering was the correct move to make.

Sure, BS was town here by fluke but BS wasn't a claimed doctor. He soft claimed to fish with intent on him.

yeah I don’t understand this logic at all.

[faüstiv]

hmmmmmmmmmm



this is quite the conundrum

[faüstiv]

The hammer was really stupid if town and really scummy regardless of alignment.

It's like a 50/50 that it's a genuine doctor... not worth the risk.

It was not a 50/50 risk. Town players don't soft claim. Period. I thought I was protecting the real doctor or preventing scum from coasting on a fake claim

are you going to answer my question?

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actually there’s questions from d1 you haven’t answered as well.

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I do have some thoughts which I plan to outline later.

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I am quite paranoid about your push on Titus GL. Your tunnel on the slot contrasts your d1 play where you were actively trying to sort players. If Titus is scum, who’s the partner?

I’ve read your case on Titus and I agree with some of it and can see where your thought process is coming from, but I don’t like how you’re not considering that there could be a town motivated reason why Titus made that hammer. I have a theory why town!Titus makes that hammer but I don’t really want to out it just yet.

On the other hand, I feel if Titus was indeed town, there would probably be more scrutiny on the slot because Titus is an easily ML to attain for scum.

GL: Do you think Titus panicked when hammering BS?

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also Titus please answer my questions thank you

[faüstiv]

Titus is flying under the radar; too much for my liking considering his posts.

post 23:

You don't seem to be a newbie.

VLA this weekend.

completely contradicts post 174:

My apologies. I didn't realize this had started.

in live mafia scum do this a lot; fake afk then come in at some point later in the day to say that 'they didn't know the game started' so people townread them as villager. probably not the case in forum mafia, however this does need exploring. why did you make 174 Titus?

183:

Right now, I see a divide in the town centered on Map Wolf and BS. BS is definitely anti-town but Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic (town or scum opportunism though). I think right now the best thing to do is to tie up the wagons and see what responses occur.

you claim BS is anti town and that Map Wolf's vote is opportunistic but could come from town, yet vote Map Wolf instead of BS.

vote count at this time was:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
Map Wolf (2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion,
Rise (1): Blatant Scum

Not Voting (3): Gjt, Titus, TheGildedSun

a vote from Titus on BS would put him on L1, so if you think he's anti town, why did you not do so? why did you pick Map Wolf instead?

don't get line of thinking in 230. can you explain that to me?

Glided Sun and BS both have wagons to 3 again.

This suggest Map wolf and GS have the same alignment.

262:

I didn't say they were both town. They could both be scum. The same people, particularly you and faustiv voting the same wagons suggest the same alignment for them.

If they are opposites, then it suggests BS is scum to me.

so where do your thoughts lie?

if you're voting Map Wolf then that suggests you think he is scum. do you think TGS is town? if so why not vote BS. there's no progression to consider here because this post stems from a logical analysis made by Titus in 183.

vote count for reference:

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
TheGildedSun (3): faüstiv, Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Map Wolf (1): Titus
GayBabyJailor (1): Gjt

Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

Also, no matter how antitown they are, you never hammer an un-CC'd doctor claim on D1.

That's just flat out wrong. I'm not trading our doctor, if one even exists, for outed scum. If BS was scum, my move was very optimal. Based on BS's play, hammering was the correct move to make.

Sure, BS was town here by fluke but BS wasn't a claimed doctor. He soft claimed to fish with intent on him.

yeah I don’t understand this logic at all.

I am quite paranoid about your push on Titus GL. Your tunnel on the slot contrasts your d1 play where you were actively trying to sort players. If Titus is scum, who’s the partner?

I’ve read your case on Titus and I agree with some of it and can see where your thought process is coming from, but I don’t like how you’re not considering that there could be a town motivated reason why Titus made that hammer. I have a theory why town!Titus makes that hammer but I don’t really want to out it just yet.

On the other hand, I feel if Titus was indeed town, there would probably be more scrutiny on the slot because Titus is an easily ML to attain for scum.

GL: Do you think Titus panicked when hammering BS?

Questions are in these 3 posts. I’m on phone so can’t bold them.

[faüstiv]

What I think you should've done was that you should've asked them to clarify if they for real were doctor. That'd force them to commit to a claim... Also it would've made no sense to fake-claim doctor while you're getting lynched if you were town.

Pondering about this game (I will need to read through ISOs), I kind of have a gut feeling that the scum players would want to court me on their side by townreading me.
I really still think Titus hammering BS was the wrong thing. There are two options: Town misplaying is possible, but would suck. The other option is that she is scum intentionally hammering what is likely a doctor, and then trying hard to justify the action as rational play.
Like if you were scum and she was town, you'd want to push her.

I like this thought process but I think there are other reasons why town!Totus and scum!Titus should do what she did.

[faüstiv]

there's something really off with the titus/GL interaction.

not in terms of the content and context of the argument but rather the activity of the rest of the playerbase. has anyone actually weighed in with anything more than an 'on the fence opinion'? I've been mulling the gamestate and have come up with some hypothetical scenarios:

if GL and Titus is TvS then why is Titus not being turbolynched if she's town (when this would be an incredibly easy ML for town to make)? if Titus is scum when why does she make that hammer D1? as GL said either Titus believes her partner can carry or Titus believed that her partner was under scrutiny (could also suggest that scum!titus is a goon?) also if Titus is scum wouldn't partner bus here as no one here is seen as solid town by the rest of the playerbase?

if Titus and GL is SvS then whats the play here? this wouldn't make sense imo. the only thing i could see would be for one of them to bus the other and that player to claim a PR, fishing the other one out. this doesn't make sense because, assuming Titus would be the fall guy in the scumteam, GL doesn't really need to gain towncred when there's so many lynchable players still on the table. So I think if one flips scum the other flips town on this basis.

if Titus vs GL is TvT then to me this makes more sense, given that the rest of the playerbase have sat back and watched them juke it out. from what i remember there were quite a few votes flying around on d1. why is this not the case today? Imo this Titus vs GL argument has been prolonged too long and is dominating the discussion. IF this is TvT then it benefits mafia as they are not under any scrutiny or pressure; they just have to wait to see which side falters and throw the vote there. this also makes sense given that a lot of the other players have declared that they are 'on the fence'.

So I'm inclined to believe that we could be looking in the wrong ballpark here. I think both scum are outside GL and Titus and mafia are letting this argument continue as long as possible. As I've said, GL+Titus being SvS is unlikely so that would suggest that if GL or Titus is scum then they have a partner whch isn't GL/Titus. i want to look elsewhere.

Therefore I'm gonna throw this vote and see what it yields.

VOTE: GayBabyJailor

[faüstiv]

Post 333 should be answered ad nauseam in other posts. If not, I'll need a more specific question.

In your last post, I need a rephrase of the question. It talks a lot about me but I don't see a question.

yeah ignore it. there wasn't a question for you there. quoted wrong post.

[faüstiv]

I'm back and I don't really know where to start because there's just so much to take in. Gonna throw in some random thoughts

- Was going to agree SvS in Titus/Guilty is out of the question, but great, with that game Guilty linked, it could actually be a scenario. Would !scumGuilty literally try this again while linking us the game though? Probably not but man...
- The most likely option is still TvS both ways between Guilty/Titus. !scumGuilty or !scumTitus that is the question.
- Leaning towards !scumTitus still but I'm wondering if it's because Guilty's better at making a case or because he's more right
- Titus' "it wasn't a mistake" attitude makes me second guess myself. I think she'd be more...idk, trying to please us if she were scum
- Guilty's #381 actually makes me more "paranoid". Yes I've also noticed there's an experience/playstyle gap between us and I will/am trying to take that into consideration but why are you appealing to me? I think it is pretty obvious I'm the most cautious of you here so hmmm... Will try and ask you more questions though.
- This is kinda the reasoning for me so I'm gonna throw this out: I think we're all a bit reluctant to vote is partially because we're newbies? We don't have the experience/confidence to make this decision fast, at least I don't so that's why it looks like there's a lot of fence sitting. I don't think it means anything. Glad for it though so I can make my decision at my own pace.
- TvT is a possibility, but definitely not the most likely. Faustiv, your reasoning doesn't make sense to me.

my reasoning for believing it was TvT was that the rest of the townies weren't really contributing and not offering a position on either side, which suggests that if there's 2 scum outside Titus/GL they'd wait and see which of the two was the most lynchable without getting their hands dirty and then push for that lynch.

i feel that if it was TvS then others would be less reluctant to throw a vote on either. people are doing so now but

after

i made that point.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: TheGildedSun

if both scum are outside Titus/GL then it doesn't make sense that rise/map split the vote. would GBJ unvote here if he's scum? idk. he might if he's partners with titus but then again if he was why would he vote titus at l2 in the first place? by unvoting he's drawing attention to himself.

TGS slot seems the most likely to be scum given the gamestate.

[faüstiv]

new angle:

who does everyone scumread outside GL/Titus

[faüstiv]

time for reads list 3

titus/guilylion: TvS leaning titus
tgs: kinda sus
faus: acting weird but probably town
map wolf: seems fine, nothing really stands out
rise: townie dude

can you elaborate on this?

[faüstiv]

ok so there's 3 days left. there's barely been any activity in d2 and most of it has centred around GL/Titus so I'm just gonna say it in case people speedhammer Titus or something. I think Titus is the other PR.

answering this from GL:

I do want to ask though can you give a specific read on Titus outside of the game state weirdness from our 1v1? How likely do you think it is that this is really TvT vs Titus is just caught scum?

In terms of what Titus has said and her defense etc. no I don't TR it, but I think the way the gamestate is, Titus is more likely to be PR than scum. Why?

1) Personally I think you're exaggerating the benefits that scum!Titus has with that hammer. scum!Titus hammering a 'soft PR claim' will only put this slot into scrutiny in the following day, which it has. Bear in mind Titus wasn't really scumread D1, I don't see why she'd make that play and draw attention to herself. Also remember that Titus has a partner, which FYPOV, is not you. Who is Titus' partner in this situation? The only reason I could see scum!Titus making that hammer is that she trusts her partner to endgame this, but every town slot has been shadethrown and no one has been concretely TRed enough for, I believe, scum!Titus to trust her partner to carry this. Also consider that the investigating PR is still alive. Scum may not have roleblocked the cop or rolecop may not have found tracker (I think that's what rolecop does anyway?) so the investigating role may have two reports going into tomorrow which puts scum in a precarious position. Sure if Titus is scum she could rolefish the PR but if the real PR has a guilty report that they were concealing that's not on Titus then it's game over for mafia. You also say that TGS is your top scumread outside Titus, but considering TGS had 3 votes on her yesterday and was under a lot of scrutiny, why would scum!Titus make that play if TGS is her partner. No way scum!TGS endgames this.

I see too many risks in Titus' play and too many probabilities in the gamestate for Titus to do what she did d1 as scum.

2) You talk about how Titus has reacted but from experience scum and PR's react similarly when being questioned, because both roles are trying to conceal their true alignment. I think this is the case here.

3) Titus wasn't really engaged in the game if you look at D1. She's said today that she's been busy with IRL stuff (373). I think either she didn't like how BS was 'softclaiming' PR and hammered him because she is PR and thought he was fishing or just genuinely made a mistake and thought doc wasn't in this game. Personally I lean towards the former but wouldn't rule out the latter as a possibility.

4) I think if the interaction is TvS then other townies make more of a stance. Everyone was 'on the fence' until recently and even then, the players aren't really obstinate with the sides they're taking.

GBJ unvoted when Titus was at L1

Map Wolf said this in 414:

I want to also think about GL. What if he was scum? What would the state of the game then be? I can see it being possible that his way of trying to townread players is a way for us to do that in return. Feels like he assumes the best in everyone, except Titus (although I don't blame him too hard for that).

in 393 Rise said (before she voted GL in 397):

Leaning towards !scumTitus still but I'm wondering if it's because Guilty's better at making a case or because he's more right

so if either of these are scum then they can easily backtrack and vote the other way because they're not really committing to a stance. I feel if this was TvS then someone would.

so yeah I think Titus is more likely to flip PR than mafia, hence why I don't want this lynch.

[faüstiv]

yeah

I understand where GL is coming from but I think he is wrong.

[faüstiv]

people should join me on this bw.

it's clear that outside GL/Titus that no one is comfortable voting either of them

no one townreads TGS

TGS could be mafia partner with anyone here if you look at gamestate (except maybe titus)

read my case in 265

let's stop looking into what is probably a TvT argument and lynch scum.

[faüstiv]

why is she scum? well mainly on poe and logic.

I hard TR GL. I think his thought process makes a lot of sense and I followed the same progression as he did in D1.

Titus' play is reminiscent of that of a PR more than a scum IMO. if that's a scumhammer then it's rash play which I don't think comes from an SE with a gazillion games who wasn't FOSsed at the time.

this leaves map, rise, GBJ, TGS

rise is my next townread after GL mainly due to voting GL. I don't see what scum!rise gains by doing that. it draws attention to the slot. it get's GL's backup who is the most townread between GL/Titus so it puts that slot in a precarious position. posts from 392 onwards look like genuine gamesolve posts. sure rise could split the vote I suppose to distance herself from her partner if it's in map/GBJ/TGS but I don't really see how she would benefit that much by making that move when it's probably not going to be picked up later in the game.

map wolf is eh... unsure. on one hand he's made a lot of posts which seem like genuine gamesolve posts but that vote putting Titus to L1 when he was so publically on the fence was bad.

GBJ - again idk. he gets townpoints for the unvote but I don't think he's done that much. he hasn't really elaborated on his points or his townreads. he needs to explain his thought process more.

the L1 vote from Map and then the unvote soon after from GBJ makes me think they're not paired up so I'm inclined to believe that that leaves TGS who, admittedly hasn't done anything today (most probably through no fault of her own, might just be busy with IRL stuff) but her d1 was bad.

i think if we lynch TGS/GBJ/map wolf in any order we win the game.

[faüstiv]

map wolf is eh... unsure. on one hand he's made a lot of posts which seem like genuine gamesolve posts but that vote putting Titus to L1 when he was so publically on the fence was bad.

the L1 vote from Map and then the unvote soon after from GBJ makes me think they're not paired up so I'm inclined to believe that that leaves TGS who, admittedly hasn't done anything today (most probably through no fault of her own, might just be busy with IRL stuff) but her d1 was bad.
i think if we lynch TGS/GBJ/map wolf in any order we win the game.

Can you elaborate on why the L-1 vote was bad? I specfically stated that I didn't want a lynch in the post itself. In hindsight, I do get that putting Titus L-1 is super risky if someone accidentally votes her, but I don't really see the vote hurting town.
I agree that Titus/GL being TvT is possible, but I am certainly not convinced of it. Still, I agree that one of TGS/GBJ likely is scum.

the vote was bad because you fencesat on the two throughout the day and threw the vote on when the Titus wagon was gaining momentum. sure you scumread titus more than GL but you still didn't place a vote, so to me that's a fencesit when you're explicitly stating that you believe that at least one is mafia.

362:

Pondering about this game (I will need to read through ISOs), I kind of have a gut feeling that the scum players would want to court me on their side by townreading me.
I really still think Titus hammering BS was the wrong thing. There are two options: Town misplaying is possible, but would suck. The other option is that she is scum intentionally hammering what is likely a doctor, and then trying hard to justify the action as rational play.
Like if you were scum and she was town, you'd want to push her.

388:

I agree with the logic of GL in 370. That said, citing the mod is not really the way to go. Think of it like a guideline for new players, not some absolute rule.

389:

It's about 50/50 whether it's T/T for me (Between GL and Titus). Still, Titus comes off as defensive. You'd be better off admitting that you made a genuine mistake (as this was) as town. GL could be scum, but if you were scum, you wouldn't really need to push Titus in this scenario. I'd to ready to criticize her more if GL didn't do it.

On another note, the second town PR is Tracker/Cop. I can only assume that that player didn't find anything that would be useful for us.

then 393 you vote Titus. You state that you believe TGS could be scum but TGS wasn't voting at that stage. What if TGS hammered Titus and Titus flipped town?

I didn't like the vote or the timing of the vote for that reason.

[faüstiv]

we might need an extension @mod if titus is going to be replaced.

[faüstiv]

also @playerbase - i get it's weekend but please try and post more. we shouldn't really be only on 18 pages at the end of D2. inactivity only serves to help mafia.

even if you haven't got that much to say, keep the discussion flowing.

[faüstiv]

thanks

[faüstiv]

@faustiv

About TvT: Maybe I'm dumb but I still don't get your reasoning that TvT Titus/GL is most likely. Why do people being hesitant to vote/take strong sides point to TvT? I know you said scum might want to watch it unfold and throw in a vote at the end to not get their hands dirty but how is that the best/most obvious tactic for scum? At this current point, all they have done is drag it out long enough for the focus to shift which is not in their favour at all. I'm just not getting it.

ok try and think of it from a scum perspective.

so say you're in a game and you're scum and player A and player B who are both town are arguing and scumreading each other. let's say this argument dominates the day. are scum more likely to jump in and risk disrupting the argument or are scum more likely to see which way the argument goes and then lynch the one which comes off as the most scummy.

i feel if it was TvS then we'd be seeing at least one other person taking more of a side. no one has. case in point GBJ voted titus. map wolf then voted titus. GBJ then quickly unvoted titus, what does that tell you about him? also read map wolfs posts, he's unsure too. i feel scum would be making more of a stand to try and wrestle the lynch in scums favour but no one is. everyone's content to sit back and let the argument dilute the chat.

another reason why i think this is TvT? because two towns dominating the chat is good for scum. scum aren't being questioned. scum aren't getting nervous. the day's been diluted by this argument and no one's jumping in. why? because they know if they jump in and take a stance their slot will come under more scrutiny. that's where I believe the gamestate lies; scum want to see this argument play out and lynch the loser. it also saves scum trying to force a lynch through because in a TvT situation like this, lynching the loser does not require scum to get their hands dirty.

[faüstiv]

LYNCHING
With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Blatant Scum (3): Rise, GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf
TheGildedSun (3): faüstiv, Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Map Wolf (1): Titus
GayBabyJailor (1): Gjt

Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

this is the votecount in 250. 3 votes on TGS.

my vote came in 204.

BS vote came in 211.

Guilty voted in 226.

that's quite a quick vote progression.

BS flipped town already, so we all know at least one person on that wagon was town.

so why the delay in voting TGS, a slot no one townreads? answer - mafia want us to vote in Titus/GL because they're both town. there's a resistance of people to sheep me, despite no one TRing TGS, because TGS is mafia.

[faüstiv]

well this escalated quickly.

[faüstiv]

btw, GL's current play reminds me of one of ARB's old scumplay articles (couldn't find it ) where you tunnel town for the majority of a day, deny town actual discussion, and then settle for a compromise town lynch at deadline.

You said you were going to case GL but if you have, I don’t see it. The above is the only thing resembling a case I can find.

What is your case on GL being scum?

[faüstiv]

PtvUrist you say you’ve been following the game since D1. What was your read on TGS?

[faüstiv]

I think if Titus is town,

then there is a good chance that

the scum pairing might be GL and Rise/TGS.

I want to also think about GL. What if he was scum? What would the state of the game then be? I can see it being possible that his way of trying to townread players is a way for us to do that in return. Feels like he assumes the best in everyone, except Titus (although I don't blame him too hard for that).

I am kind of tempting to join the wagon on TGS, but there is kind of an issue with that in theory. If we assume one of GL/Titus is scum, then a mislynch today could essentially force us to choose between one of them tomorrow. That would not be that great of a prospect for us, so if TGS was town, then she'd be the perfect push for today.

I honestly wouldn't mind lynching GL and then potentially Titus tomorrow. That might get us the best chance of winning.
UNVOTE: Titus

what is this?

[faüstiv]

Readlist;
{GL, MW} scumpair

Can you explain why that's your view? If we were both scum (which I am not), wouldn't it make more sense for us to disagree more? The only problem I'd have with a lynch of GL is that there's a chance that he is town. Perhaps a better chance than you being town for all I know.

I think if Titus is town,

then there is a good chance that

the scum pairing might be GL and Rise/TGS.

I want to also think about GL. What if he was scum? What would the state of the game then be? I can see it being possible that his way of trying to townread players is a way for us to do that in return. Feels like he assumes the best in everyone, except Titus (although I don't blame him too hard for that).

I am kind of tempting to join the wagon on TGS, but there is kind of an issue with that in theory. If we assume one of GL/Titus is scum, then a mislynch today could essentially force us to choose between one of them tomorrow. That would not be that great of a prospect for us, so if TGS was town, then she'd be the perfect push for today.

I honestly wouldn't mind lynching GL and then potentially Titus tomorrow. That might get us the best chance of winning.
UNVOTE: Titus

I want you all to read this back and forth

Read it over and over again until you see how fake it is

Map Wolf between these two posts realized his only chance would be to set himself up to vote me and not PvtUrist

yeah I’ve just seen that. That 448 is screaming scum to me.

[faüstiv]

we have 2 days. I’m down to flip this onto Map. I’m more confident he is scum.

[faüstiv]

the vote was bad because you fencesat on the two throughout the day and threw the vote on when the Titus wagon was gaining momentum. sure you scumread titus more than GL but you still didn't place a vote, so to me that's a fencesit when you're explicitly stating that you believe that at least one is mafia.

then 393 you vote Titus. You state that you believe TGS could be scum but TGS wasn't voting at that stage. What if TGS hammered Titus and Titus flipped town?

I didn't like the vote or the timing of the vote for that reason.

Well if someone hammered Titus, then they'd get policy lynched next day.

That's why I didn't fear a hammer. As for the fencesitting, you're right on it. I didn't feel like committing to a vote before that point.

What do you mean by this?

[faüstiv]

yeah I still don’t see guilty flipping scum here.

GBJ why did you unvote

[faüstiv]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

[faüstiv]

So I want to go over the votes from yesterday and try to analyse it a bit.

Blatant Scum (5): GayBabyJailor, Map Wolf, faüstiv, Gjt, Titus
TheGildedSun (2): Blatant Scum, GuiltyLion
Guilty Lion (1): Rise
Not Voting (1): TheGildedSun

I feel like BS was a really obvious vote for most of yesterday. I feel like there almost certainly is at least one scum among the people not voting BS, due to WIFOM. TGS is a good candidate to be honest...

I think if Titus is town,

then there is a good chance that

the scum pairing might be GL and Rise/TGS.

This does kind of make it less likely that Faustiv (and from your perspective I) would be scum, since you would want to be more hesitant to have your vote on the lynched person. This doesn't of course vindicate Titus, since that hammer kind of came out of the blue as far as I am concerned.

I want to also think about GL. What if he was scum? What would the state of the game then be? I can see it being possible that his way of trying to townread players is a way for us to do that in return. Feels like he assumes the best in everyone, except Titus (although I don't blame him too hard for that).

I am kind of tempting to join the wagon on TGS, but there is kind of an issue with that in theory. If we assume one of GL/Titus is scum, then a mislynch today could essentially force us to choose between one of them tomorrow. That would not be that great of a prospect for us, so if TGS was town, then she'd be the perfect push for today.

Honestly tempted to just hammer GL. Only reason I am not yet doing so is because we'd probably insta-lose if I did and he flipped town.

So map announces here that he thinks it’s GL and Rise/TGS

He then has hammer between GL and the TGS slot but refuses to hammer, even though he scunreads both slots. His reason for not hammering screams of self concern for his slot rather than it being detrimental for town. I think Map knows GL flips town if he hammers him.

VOTE: Map Wolf

let’s go

[faüstiv]

infact this whole shift onto GL is concerning.

One scum in Ptv/Map. Not sure whether they’re both maf yet.

*sigh*

why is he scum? I really don’t see it.

[faüstiv]

fine, I'll do it myself

Intent to hammer

why did you unvote?

[faüstiv]

honestly GBJ is pinging me now

[faüstiv]

just thought of more reasons to call out PvtUrist

-

D2 consists of a complete change of playstyle from passive to aggressive, pushing for Titus's mislynch by appealing to authority

(of which he denies), and

no other reasons to scumread Titus

. Also denies town town-aligned interaction for the majority of D2, then switching to the policy lynch come deadline (because there were no good discussion during D2, which was caused by whom?)

- I already explained the change in play style was due to anger and suspicion about how scummy that hammer was and the fact that nobody else besides faustiv was really pushing things I wanted pushed so far this game
- It's dishonest to blame me for lack of discussion. If you think there was "no good discussion" during D2 that falls to the players who weren't discussing anything. I'm not telling people they can't post or talk about other things. I've contributed so much to this game and put so much effort in that to blame me for other people not playing is ridiculous and insulting. Titus is barely playing. TGS didn't play. GBJ just posts one liners. Map Wolf goes in and out of inactivity and sits on fences. None of that is my fault or due to my play.

@faustiv who is town out of Map Wolf / PvtUrist if GBJ is pinging you? I really don't see how GBJ is scummier than either of them together or in a vacuum.

yeah i think I'm overthinking it tbh. GBJ is playing weird but I think he's town.

[faüstiv]

I'm going to be so angry if we lose this game. I will take some responsibility for my lynch as I haven't tried very hard to make friends or persuade people not to vote for me, but I am fucking tired of how I and Faustiv are the only people actually posting cogent, reasonable takes over and over again to be ignored by Rise/Titus. I'm not an idiot, I know how to push and look for scum and the fact that you all went and derplynched BS and fought me at every turn when I tried to point out how it wasn't likely he was scum, then fought me at every turn when I tried to pressure Titus for an objectively shitty hammer only to turn it onto me for ??? reasons other than I am playing loud and aggressively is just beyond frustrating.

@GBJ even if it is manipulative it's the truth. I've tried over and over and over again to get Rise to drop her paranoia of me and listen to what I have to say and she simply won't do it. It's sick of it.

honestly guys I don't see this post coming from scum like ever.

[faüstiv]

Ok, nah guys, what are you doing? Gonna repeat what I said earlier: we NEED this Guilty lynch. Rn, I'm convinced he's scum and it's honestly concerning how hard he's resisting death.

Even if you think he's town, understand that by him flipping town, it'll give his "will" a lot of validity. I will personally say if I'm alive, I will follow it. Rn, I'm not buying it at all. It's way too certain for something that came out of nowhere. Remember, before Pvt came in, Guilty said MW was one of his strongest TRs and now he's literally turned his back and said he is definitely scum. How does that make sense? Seems to me like he TR'd Map when he was working in his favour (on his side, voting Titus) and now is disposing him cause it'll help him live. That also screams his TRs and SRs aren't real. In fact, I remember getting SR'd like 2 times for disagreeing with him for further proof.

We can deal with Map later.

The truth is we will not win without Guilty lynch today. (Yes, it's really that serious)

So what's your read on Map Wolf?

[faüstiv]

Sidenote: Guilty manipulation is real. He keeps insisting that I'm stupid to discredit me/insinuate "if you're not stupid, you'll agree with me."

If Guilty is scum then he has a partner. Who is it?

I'm going to take a look at the voting patterns on this wagon.

[faüstiv]

489 is where we had the split between GL and the TGS slot:

GuiltyLion (3): Titus, Rise, PvtUrist
PvtUrist (3): faüstiv, GayBabyJailor, GuiltyLion

Not Voting (1): Map Wolf

No unvotes. Map has hammer but comments in 511:

Honestly tempted to just hammer GL. Only reason I am not yet doing so is because we'd probably insta-lose if I did and he flipped town.

GayBaby unvotes in 514:

UNVOTE: pvt

forgot i was voting him still :p

GBJ announces intent to hammer in 525:

fine, I'll do it myself

Intent to hammer

533 GBJ votes Map:

alright ive thunk on it and I would prefer a mapwolf lynch today, but guilty is an ok lynch if yall dont want to change

VOTE: map wolf

GL joins the wagon on 535:

GBJ says in 536:

ok map wolf is definitely getting bussed at this point, the question is who is the scum pushing map wolf

So GBJ implies here that if Map is mafia then me or GL is partner?

539 GBJ says:

indeed that is my thought

in response to GL posts.

Rise comes in and in 545 posts:

Ok, nah guys, what are you doing? Gonna repeat what I said earlier: we NEED this Guilty lynch. Rn, I'm convinced he's scum and it's honestly concerning how hard he's resisting death.

Even if you think he's town, understand that by him flipping town, it'll give his "will" a lot of validity. I will personally say if I'm alive, I will follow it. Rn, I'm not buying it at all. It's way too certain for something that came out of nowhere. Remember, before Pvt came in, Guilty said MW was one of his strongest TRs and now he's literally turned his back and said he is definitely scum. How does that make sense? Seems to me like he TR'd Map when he was working in his favour (on his side, voting Titus) and now is disposing him cause it'll help him live. That also screams his TRs and SRs aren't real. In fact, I remember getting SR'd like 2 times for disagreeing with him for further proof.

We can deal with Map later. The truth is we will not win without Guilty lynch today. (Yes, it's really that serious)

all of a sudden in 547 GBJ unvotes Map Wolf:

UNVOTE: map wolf

feeling unsure about this now

shades GL in 550.

ewwwwwwww

hmmmmmmm...

GBJ could actually be scum here.

There's been no resistance at all on GuiltyLion's wagon. PtvUrist is on the wagon. Map Wolf has announced intent to hammer it. So has GBJ. In contrast, there has been resistance on the Ptv and Map wagon, mainly coming from GBJ. He votes then unvotes soon after and shadethrows on GL. Though saying that, he was on the Titus wagon early D2 too. I'm not sure whether he's town with a scattered mindset or scum looking for the easy ML. I'm leaning more towards town though; seeing as he's been on 4 wagons today. I don't think he'd join those wagons so quickly as scum and then come off them so quickly too, it's just drawing attention to himself.

PEDIT: just seen GBJ's most recent post, saying if GL is mafia then partner is Map. I don't get this thought process. Could you explain it?

[faüstiv]

Rise I'm struggling to see how you townread Map Wolf over GL at this point.

[faüstiv]

I'm fractionally paranoid of the Rise/PvtUrist team, I'm gonna try to see if I can find anything that rules them out. Rise/TGS didn't really interact at all

did you find anything? what’s your read on Rise?

I find her tonally town but I’m going to reread them.

[faüstiv]

Map wolf put Titus in L1, unvoted, then said ‘I wouldn’t mind lynching GL

then

Titus as soon as PvT joined the game and announced his TR on Totus. Map is looking for ML opportunities rather than scum.

there’s still time to flip this

[faüstiv]

Actually, yknow what? I reread the lynching again and I have to admit, "I soft claim town doctor" was kinda a troll move. A bit game throwing since he was town. It was almost like he didn't want anyone to believe him so he could flip doctor and be like "haha I did say I was doctor."

These don't help either. I really thought he was going to flip scum.

Was I really so obvious?

What should(n't) I do next time?

This is not the same as the game Guilty linked.

F it guys, I'm going against the current. VOTE: GuiltyLion

posts like this make me think Rise is town. Not just the tone but you get a feel that her scumhunting is genuine. Her progression on GL makes sense seeing as she’s had that doubt since D1. I don’t see this flipping scum.

[faüstiv]

like referencing the game GL posted etc.

[faüstiv]

yeah the rise cop flip changes the complexion of this game entirely.

I’ll check both Rise and Titus’ ISO’s later. It’s 4am here and I can’t sleep.

[faüstiv]

Town needs all 3 votes but scum only needs 1. Assuming Titus is town, it's up to faustiv whether we win or lose this game.

no pressure

[faüstiv]

VOTE: TheGildedSun

if both scum are outside Titus/GL then it doesn't make sense that rise/map split the vote. would GBJ unvote here if he's scum? idk. he might if he's partners with titus but then again if he was why would he vote titus at l2 in the first place? by unvoting he's drawing attention to himself.

TGS slot seems the most likely to be scum given the gamestate.

I disagree with this.

If GL is town, scum split the vote, keep the focus there and encourage apathy and stagnation. They can also get a dual lynch.

What's your thoughts on this now GL flipped town?

This was final votecount

With 7 votes in play, it takes 4 to lynch.

GuiltyLion (4): Titus, Rise, PvtUrist, Map Wolf <-- LYNCH
Map Wolf (2): faüstiv, GuiltyLion

Not Voting (1): GayBabyJailor

Deadline: (expired on 2019-11-27 21:00:00).

[faüstiv]

i'm paranoid that i may have been completely wrong on titus

[faüstiv]

Honestly, I think Faustiv/Titus might actually be the scumteam. Think about this. We were split between Titus/GL for a while... And then comes the post from faustiv in 420: Titus is probably PR he suggests. From that point onwards, we all just assume that titus is pr.

We know for sure that the setup is A1: Mafia Roleblocker, Town Cop, Town Doctor. In other words, Mafia can't for sure know who is pr.
Now let's assume Titus is town. Why would scum not kill them? Now sure it could be some hard WIFOM, but that'd carry an insane risk if they were pr as a cop result could be super valuable. Titus being scum is certainly the best explanation for the nightkill. Now why not kill faustiv? Surely he was the most townread player. Again, WIFOM could be used as an argument, but I personally don't believe that faustiv would've been lynched anyway.

On the other hand, if Titus is scum, then you'd want to avoid killing a pr role. Now obviously scum wouldn't want to kill me nor Pvt, so that leaves GBJ, Rise and Faustiv, minus the one of them that could be scum. Surely, if Titus was scum, then mafia would incorrectly have thought that Rise was least likely to be PR.
So I think Titus is almost certainly scum and would probably be the best lynch. Faustiv is not as clear-cut, but it mainly comes down to 420 which to me seems like a gamble attempting to save a scummate. I'll need to read through the Rise ISO though.

For what's it's worth, both faustiv and titus were on the BS lynch, with titus coming with a really bad reasoning still. Titus was on the GL lynch, but Faustiv wasn't.

if I'm scum with Titus I bus Titus D2.

I bus Titus to gain towncred

Titus fishes PR

PR dies

If I'm scum with Titus then I don't assume they're PR and defend them. Reasons for this are:

1) say Titus was lynched and they flipped scum. I'm immediately in the frame for the next day for defending Titus, which would be unnecessarily drawing attention to myself considering I was a TR.

2) If Titus is scum and wasn't lynched, mafia don't know who the last PR is, risking potentially 2 reports in LYLO which would compromise their chances.

I have no good reason to save Titus if I'm scum with them.

Titus' reactions and intentions read more like PR rather than mafia to me.

Why didn't Titus die? Either it's scum or mafia had a PR read on Rise. Titus could have been roleblocked N1 and/or tonight. I'm going to read Rise shortly and see if there's anything telling.

[faüstiv]

new angle:

who does everyone scumread outside GL/Titus

Not Map

and I don't think you either so that kinda leaves GBJ and TGS. It's kinda hard to say though because both these slots aren't offering much. I kinda want to reverve judgement on TGS a bit because it seems like she's genuinely busy but agreeing with GBJ, it is a bit weird she never votes.

I'm going to be so angry if we lose this game. I will take some responsibility for my lynch as I haven't tried very hard to make friends or persuade people not to vote for me, but I am fucking tired of how I and Faustiv are the only people actually posting cogent, reasonable takes over and over again to be ignored by Rise/Titus. I'm not an idiot, I know how to push and look for scum and the fact that you all went and derplynched BS and fought me at every turn when I tried to point out how it wasn't likely he was scum, then fought me at every turn when I tried to pressure Titus for an objectively shitty hammer only to turn it onto me for ??? reasons other than I am playing loud and aggressively is just beyond frustrating.

@GBJ even if it is manipulative it's the truth. I've tried over and over and over again to get Rise to drop her paranoia of me and listen to what I have to say and she simply won't do it. It's sick of it.

honestly guys I don't see this post coming from scum like ever.

Squint maybe? You just gotta look a little harder.

About Map: sorry if it's not but ughh if this an attempt to shift the focus back onto MW then I don't even want to answer because it won't help us at all.

hmmmmmmm

[faüstiv]

that may have been an inno soft on Map.

[faüstiv]

i'm feeling a PvT/Titus scumteam

[faüstiv]

i'm gonna read titus' previous gazillion games too.

[faüstiv]

that may have been an inno soft on Map.

Been thinking more about this. Would scum!Titus

want

to kill PR in this situation? Think about it, if Titus is scum then she’s in a good position to CC here. She only needs one town vote to win. What if Rise wasn’t a PR read at all and was just a ‘lucky’ kill that was originally targeted as a blue kill?

Rise was pretty hesitant to join the Map Wolf BW. Map is lynchbait. If Map is town then scum only need one town vote on him to win. Scum aren’t going to keep someone around who is hesitant to place their vote on a hot lynch.

[faüstiv]

If Titus is town then scum could still keep them alive because town would be paranoid as to why that slot was alive, ergo an attainable lynch.

scum have roleblocker, they could have just roleblocked her then tried to create paranoia.

[faüstiv]

urrrrrgggghhhhh

[faüstiv]

key to this game is finding town in titus/GBJ/PvT

[faüstiv]

why ponder life’s complexities when the leather runs smooth on the passenger’s seat?

[faüstiv]

can we resurrect Rise?

[faüstiv]

that may have been an inno soft on Map.

Been thinking more about this. Would scum!Titus

want

to kill PR in this situation? Think about it, if Titus is scum then she’s in a good position to CC here. She only needs one town vote to win. What if Rise wasn’t a PR read at all and was just a ‘lucky’ kill that was originally targeted as a blue kill?

Rise was pretty hesitant to join the Map Wolf BW. Map is lynchbait. If Map is town then scum only need one town vote on him to win. Scum aren’t going to keep someone around who is hesitant to place their vote on a hot lynch.

My thought is that scum did not intend to kill pr.

Possibly. If thats the case then do you think Titus is still scum or was she a roleblock target?

[faüstiv]

I’m against it.

[faüstiv]

Tbh I’m less thinking that scum PR read Rise and more thinking that they killed her because she was a stubborn townie.

[faüstiv]

why do you scumread map?

Titus same question?

[faüstiv]

like I get it but I think the kill changes the complexion of the game.

[faüstiv]

where do you stand titus? who's scum?

[faüstiv]

like I get it but I think the kill changes the complexion of the game.

I am resorting relationships. Common sense says Map but I want to be sure.

@GayBayJailor, MS doesn't notify you if you're roleblocked. You deduce it by getting a no result (if cop) or your heal target dying if you're a doctor in this setup.

*twitch*

This gives me flashbacks to my first newbie game where I was scum and searched for the same thing. Why didn't you ask this day 2?

No I'm not. If I was the cop, I would have claimed with info.

This tells me PvT is probably locktown. I don't see a world where his scumteam doesn't shoot me.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone. I'm thankful for the good times we had.

Glided Sun and BS both have wagons to 3 again.

This suggest Map wolf and GS have the same alignment.

hmmmmmmmmmmm

[faüstiv]

titus games:

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=71931

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68870

scum in both of these

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=72128

town in this one (small amount of posts though)

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=71796

town in this one

[faüstiv]

based on that, this seems more like scum!titus than town!titus this game.

scum titus tends to be more aggressive and defensive based on those games i linked.

[faüstiv]

Howdy folks.

I'll outline my case, then will fully elaborate in around 5-6 hours. I'll give my readlist and what I believe should and should not happen today, so feel free to interact with me about why I believe so. For now, for what is and isn't happening;

- No Titus lynch is going through today.

- No compromise lynch (my slot) is going through today.

- One of the SE is being lynched today; I believe they are both scum and will explain why (briefly now, fully in ~6 hours).

man this post is weird when i look back. was PvT piggybacking on my TR to their advantage to divert the lynch away from them and onto town?

[faüstiv]

Readlist;

{faüstiv} obvtown/universal town read

{Rise} town

{Titus, GBJ} town/not universal town reads

{GL, MW} scumpair

the following post I'm a universal TR, Titus who PvT didn't want to be lynched is a weaker tr in this list.

[faüstiv]

PvT outs Map Wolf in the scumpairing but his whole day 2 consists of a push on GL.

Titus today says 'common sense' tells us it's Map Wolf.

Rise dies who when asked 'who is scum outside Titus/GL' specifically said 'Not Map' and panicked when Map was on L1.

this looks like scum set it up for a map wolf lynch on LYLO.

[faüstiv]

PvTUrist games

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=77949

town

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=78318

scum

[faüstiv]

both are quite different to his playstyle this game.

[faüstiv]

For what it's worth, before this day began, I almost considered just insta-voting Pvt... Honestly, Titus/Pvt also is very plausible considering she wasn't on his wagon.

Still, I think Titus lynch is our best shot at this.

i think they're both scum

[faüstiv]

Readlist;

{faüstiv} obvtown/universal town read

{Rise} town

{Titus, GBJ} town/not universal town reads

{GL, MW} scumpair

the following post I'm a universal TR, Titus who PvT didn't want to be lynched is a weaker tr in this list.

This actually looks like a reads list scum who would kill Rise. Agency capture me, defend MW by going after the mistaken GL. Then pray I make a mistake. You could too even if I wished up and recalled my wagon analysis.

My biggest concern is why aren't you dead? You're suggesting Rise wasn't a PR shot. No one scumreads you.

i was obv not PR seeing as I thought PR was you. Similarly Rise was towny and had more chance of being PR than me. That's probably why

[faüstiv]

Readlist;

{faüstiv} obvtown/universal town read

{Rise} town

{Titus, GBJ} town/not universal town reads

{GL, MW} scumpair

the following post I'm a universal TR, Titus who PvT didn't want to be lynched is a weaker tr in this list.

This actually looks like a reads list scum who would kill Rise. Agency capture me, defend MW by going after the mistaken GL. Then pray I make a mistake. You could too even if I wished up and recalled my wagon analysis.

My biggest concern is why aren't you dead? You're suggesting Rise wasn't a PR shot. No one scumreads you.

i was obv not PR seeing as I thought PR was you. Similarly Rise was towny and had more chance of being PR than me. That's probably why

That goes against your theory of why you thought I was scum in the first place though doesn't it? Was it you who said Rise isn't a scum PR kill because I'd be in a good position to CC? I also don't recall you saying you thought I was the cop?

This feels like you're positioning yourself to be on whatever side you wanted to be on.

Why didn't scum kill you and block Rise?

It was one of a number of theories I threw out yes.

Scum could have been aiming for PR, which, if they were doing that, it makes sense not to kill me since I'm not a PR.

Scum could have got lucky with the Rise kill and thought it was blue.

My vote was on Map so if Map is town then that's all the more reason why I would not be killed. I was a universally TR player advocating lynch on town.

Why

wouldn't

they keep me around in that situation?

[faüstiv]

I still think Titus/Faustiv is the most likely scumteam based on 420.

I want GBJ and Pvt's thoughts on this before I cast a vote on Titus.

I've already said why it's not me and Titus.

I think you need to reconsider your read on PvT.

[faüstiv]

Honestly, I think Faustiv/Titus might actually be the scumteam. Think about this. We were split between Titus/GL for a while... And then comes the post from faustiv in 420: Titus is probably PR he suggests. From that point onwards, we all just assume that titus is pr.

We know for sure that the setup is A1: Mafia Roleblocker, Town Cop, Town Doctor. In other words, Mafia can't for sure know who is pr.
Now let's assume Titus is town. Why would scum not kill them? Now sure it could be some hard WIFOM, but that'd carry an insane risk if they were pr as a cop result could be super valuable. Titus being scum is certainly the best explanation for the nightkill. Now why not kill faustiv? Surely he was the most townread player. Again, WIFOM could be used as an argument, but I personally don't believe that faustiv would've been lynched anyway.

On the other hand, if Titus is scum, then you'd want to avoid killing a pr role. Now obviously scum wouldn't want to kill me nor Pvt, so that leaves GBJ, Rise and Faustiv, minus the one of them that could be scum. Surely, if Titus was scum, then mafia would incorrectly have thought that Rise was least likely to be PR.
So I think Titus is almost certainly scum and would probably be the best lynch. Faustiv is not as clear-cut, but it mainly comes down to 420 which to me seems like a gamble attempting to save a scummate. I'll need to read through the Rise ISO though.

For what's it's worth, both faustiv and titus were on the BS lynch, with titus coming with a really bad reasoning still. Titus was on the GL lynch, but Faustiv wasn't.

if I'm scum with Titus I bus Titus D2.

I bus Titus to gain towncred

Titus fishes PR

PR dies

If I'm scum with Titus then I don't assume they're PR and defend them. Reasons for this are:

1) say Titus was lynched and they flipped scum. I'm immediately in the frame for the next day for defending Titus, which would be unnecessarily drawing attention to myself considering I was a TR.

2) If Titus is scum and wasn't lynched, mafia don't know who the last PR is, risking potentially 2 reports in LYLO which would compromise their chances.

I have no good reason to save Titus if I'm scum with them.

Titus' reactions and intentions read more like PR rather than mafia to me.

Why didn't Titus die? Either it's scum or mafia had a PR read on Rise. Titus could have been roleblocked N1 and/or tonight. I'm going to read Rise shortly and see if there's anything telling.

[faüstiv]

like if I'm scum as well I'd just push for a lynch on you. Titus wants you dead. GBJ wants you dead. They can't both be my partner.

[faüstiv]

like if I'm scum as well I'd just push for a lynch on you. Titus wants you dead. GBJ wants you dead. They can't both be my partner.

I get this but you still haven't answered why you're alive.

Also do you think the votes support a Map Wolf TGS(PvT) team?

I guess that makes GBJ town by PoE.

I guess Rise was more of a threat to mafia's chances of winning than I was. Whether that's because they thought she was PR or whether she had correct reads, I don't know.

Votes suggest it's possible yes, but I think the kill makes Map town.

[faüstiv]

Let's say mafia roleblocks Titus and then uses their kill some other way. Why not kill Faustiv, the most townread player?

like if I'm scum as well I'd just push for a lynch on you. Titus wants you dead. GBJ wants you dead. They can't both be my partner.

If you were scum, then you pushing for me, right after I've made that post suggesting Titus/Faustiv, would've looked really bad.
Also, I am pretty sure the only ones literally "wanting me dead" are scum, who'd instant-win should I be lynched.

Already answered this.

If I was scum I would have pushed on you way before you made that post. I was pushing for you most of D2.

like there's 0 reason why I would townread you here as scum. I'm narrowing my lynchpool down massively and you're a lynchable player.

[faüstiv]

pvt seems much more inactive now than day 2, could be life but it seems sus to me

inactivity is NAI (not alignment indicative) tbh

[faüstiv]

pvt seems much more inactive now than day 2, could be life but it seems sus to me

inactivity is NAI (not alignment indicative) tbh

Unless you see PvT posting elsewhere. This is true.

I'm stuck between two solves imo. I hate lylo. If MW votes me, the logically, I have to suppose it's her but each solve has something that feels off.

what's the solves?

[faüstiv]

0_0

[faüstiv]

why those particular pairings?

[faüstiv]

i guess i can see me and faus

but i think its either map/pvt or titus/pvt now

Why would scum!pvt hard push me as the pr and then shoot the PR?

PvT never said he PR read you, just that he hard TR you

[faüstiv]

i guess i can see me and faus

but i think its either map/pvt or titus/pvt now

Why would scum!pvt hard push me as the pr and then shoot the PR?

wait...

how do you know PvT was aiming for PR?

[faüstiv]

welcome back

[faüstiv]

Map Wolf, what are your thoughts on a Faustiv GBJ team?

That's possible, although I think GBJ/Pvt is more likely.

Really, I don't have any for sure town among the 4 other players remaining. Except maybe lean town on Pvt and GBJ.

i really don't get why you scumread me over PvT

[faüstiv]

Let's say mafia roleblocks Titus and then uses their kill some other way. Why not kill Faustiv, the most townread player?

like if I'm scum as well I'd just push for a lynch on you. Titus wants you dead. GBJ wants you dead. They can't both be my partner.

If you were scum, then you pushing for me, right after I've made that post suggesting Titus/Faustiv, would've looked really bad.
Also, I am pretty sure the only ones literally "wanting me dead" are scum, who'd instant-win should I be lynched.

Already answered this.

If I was scum I would have pushed on you way before you made that post. I was pushing for you most of D2.

like there's 0 reason why I would townread you here as scum. I'm narrowing my lynchpool down massively and you're a lynchable player.

You might be right, but surely simply joining a mislynch wagon would be pretty viable as well, if you were scum?
-
By the way, I can see dead thread screaming for a lynch on me or Pvt.

which wagon? The only wagon I joined was the BS wagon. the other ones I started,

[faüstiv]

Map Wolf, what are your thoughts on a Faustiv GBJ team?

That's possible, although I think GBJ/Pvt is more likely.

Really, I don't have any for sure town among the 4 other players remaining. Except maybe lean town on Pvt and GBJ.

i really don't get why you scumread me over PvT

Mostly based on the theory that the pr read 420 is an attempt to protect scum partner. Also the fact that you haven't really been wrong so far regarding alignments; Pvt incorrectly suggested the scumteam was GL/MW

explained this. if I'm scum with titus then I bus them. This in turn fishes out PR and gives me towncred.

being wrong or right is just how the game goes. I was wrong on BS, I was right on GL. I may have been wrong on both you and Titus D2.

PvT is calling out two townies (fypov) as the scumpair. Why don't you see scum!PvT doing that?

[faüstiv]

i guess i can see me and faus

but i think its either map/pvt or titus/pvt now

Why would scum!pvt hard push me as the pr and then shoot the PR?

wait...

how do you know PvT was aiming for PR?

I don't. It just doesn't make sense for scum!PvT and scum!Titus to build up a narrative that I'm the PR and then make it so I can't CC. That's my point.

I don’t see where PvT built that narrative. can you quote it? all I see is PvT townreading you, but not specifically PR reading you.

I’ll RR

[faüstiv]

hmmmmmmm...
GBJ could actually be scum here.

There's been no resistance at all on GuiltyLion's wagon. PtvUrist is on the wagon. Map Wolf has announced intent to hammer it. So has GBJ. In contrast, there has been resistance on the Ptv and Map wagon, mainly coming from GBJ. He votes then unvotes soon after and shadethrows on GL. Though saying that, he was on the Titus wagon early D2 too. I'm not sure whether he's town with a scattered mindset or scum looking for the easy ML. I'm leaning more towards town though; seeing as he's been on 4 wagons today. I don't think he'd join those wagons so quickly as scum and then come off them so quickly too, it's just drawing attention to himself.

PEDIT: just seen GBJ's most recent post, saying if GL is mafia then partner is Map. I don't get this thought process. Could you explain it?

Do you view GBJ has town now? Just curious reading through this post.

Because Titus and faustiv and GBJ sure aren't scum

What GL writes here turns out to be false in hindsight. One of the three are scum.

yes I tr GBJ

[faüstiv]

Correct me if I've misinterpreted here, but this is what I think people's views are.

-
Still prefer Titus lynch.

what do the colours mean?

[faüstiv]

Okay so these are the 10 possible options for the setup. 4 (in grey) I eliminate by the virtue of them containing me. Another (brown) would basically imply Faustiv is pushing for a correct lynch (Pvt) rather than Titus.

The three in green are the ones involving Titus, all of which I find very possible. The remaining (in yellow) involve GBJ. GBJ advocates for either MW/Titus or Titus/Pvt. So for it to be GBJ/Pvt, he'd basically be hoping for a Titus or MW lynch, while still kind of bussing his partner. The other one in yellow is Faustiv/GBJ. This is what Titus thinks is possible. And I suppose it is, but that would truly be insane.

i mean i'm open to either Titus or PvT but sure.

[faüstiv]

VOTE: PvTUrist

[faüstiv]

if this flips scum, may have been wrong on Titus.

If this flips town then sorry dead chat.

anyway I’m more confident on PvT being scum than Titus at this stage.

[faüstiv]

if map is scum with someone that’s not PVT then I have no qualms. He deserves the win after today’s performance.

[faüstiv]

you’re back from the dead 0_0

“Aw shit” doesn’t sound like good news though.

[faüstiv]

gg all, that was a fun game.

thanks for the modding plotinus

[faüstiv]

Also, lately I've been keeping track of some statistics about who is due for a prod next, when I look at the game. I thought it might be that scum are usually more likely to be the person who hasn't posted in a while, but not necessarily the person who gets prodded the most because you can post once every 35 hours and never get a prod. This is the second or third game I've been keeping track of and so far my hypothesis seems to be wrong:

Day 1: 2/13 scum 11/13 town
Day 2: 3/11 scum 8/11 town
Day 3: 1/2 scum 1/2 town

Even accounting for there being more town alive than scum, in this game, and in the previous ones that i kept track of, scum are not more likely than town to be the lurker who might get prodded soon.

I suppose in newbie games town can get put off by flipping VT. it's arguably the hardest role to play in a newbie forum mafia game imo. also there's no actions for them.

I think newbies prefer to be town than scum, but at least with scum you can kill and strategize etc. so there's some variation into the role.

[faüstiv]

I’m sorry! I’ll remember for next time about posting before game over.

But FAUS YOU’RE EVIL!! I’m truly impressed. Don’t think I played very well looking back on things but I tried my best. I have a lot to learn.

I think all the town played well except BS, but I think that’s because BS’ heart wasn’t in the game.

[faüstiv]

that being said we had a pretty strong newbie list this game. wouldnt mind being in more games with you guys in the future, faustiv, Rise, MW and GBJ.

yeah wouldn’t mind playing with anyone in this game again.

I’m gonna take a break from mafia for a bit though, got IRL stuff to sort out.

[faüstiv]

How did you manage to lynch Guilty Lion?

Apparently I’m a great pusher.

SORRY town, like the more I think about this game, the more I’m like “I fucked up.”

it's natural to think that when you know everything, like looking back myself I think 'how the hell did i PR read Map over you'?

it was only until N2 that I was confident you were cop, but until then I had no clue. looking back I wish i'd have seen it earlier because if I was town and saw that the game would have been much easier from my perspective.

[faüstiv]

I KNEW IT. I LITERALLY CALLED OUT THE SCUMTEAM.........

To be honest I am super salty that GBJ voted Pvt.... Should've just hard pushed Titus.

yeah I was impressed.

honestly I think if Titus died I was screwed. my intention was to try and buddy you into voting PvT or at least try and steer the lynch in that direction which seemed to work... kind of.

[faüstiv]

I KNEW IT. I LITERALLY CALLED OUT THE SCUMTEAM.........

To be honest I am super salty that GBJ voted Pvt.... Should've just hard pushed Titus.

yeah I was impressed.

honestly I think if Titus died I was screwed. my intention was to try and buddy you into voting PvT or at least try and steer the lynch in that direction which seemed to work... kind of.

I am pretty sure either I or GBJ die if Titus is lynched. In that case, scum might still win if you push Pvt although obviously the votes might be a give-away.

yeah but it's who.

i could either kill you, but in that context scum!PvT never kills you, so it's a risk and GBJ could easily have been swayed enough to vote me. killing GBJ and convincing you was also a risk because you thought I was mafia and PvT town.

[faüstiv]

i feel bad for guiltylion after reading the dead thread.

also shocked he was lynched. if i wasn't scum i definitely would've defended him harder.

[faüstiv]

Last but not least, Faustiv, your innate dayplay is amazing. You didn't need me as much as you worried. In the future, I'd distance from me a little more but that's a personal call. Being the goon, I was always more expendable.

thanks. i think we did alright. you did well to shake that lynch off of you D2 too.

reason why I didn't distance as much as you may have liked was because I needed to shade you enough to stand any chance of winning in 3 way should you have been lynched. me defending you in LYLO looks very bad when the crux of my tr on you was that I thought you was a PR, so I had to push you to ensure my play remained consistent.

the endgame was always to try and achieve a PvT lynch and the best candidate for their 'partner' was you.

tbh as scum I'm not that much of a team player rightly or wrongly. if I feel it helps my chances of winning I will bus my partner.

[faüstiv]

Rise, sorry buddy you weren't living with a likely clear on MW. We knew PvT wasn't the cop (vetoed lynch on me). You just made the most sense. With us pushing on MW, that left kill you and block GBJ (I think we blocked GBJ) as our best options. We could have blocked you and killed someone else but that just let's you CC cop and forces a faustiv bus.

we blocked map.

GBJ wasn't flipping PR (imo) for 2 reasons.

his response to the BS lynch.

how easily he bought into my theory of you being PR.

I think Rise crumbed pretty well and yeah perhaps with more experienced players the outcome would have been different because MW would've been virtually locktown, therefore his opinions would have held more weight within the town.

[faüstiv]

reason why I didn't distance as much as you may have liked was because I needed to shade you enough to stand any chance of winning in 3 way should you have been lynched. me defending you in LYLO looks very bad when the crux of my tr on you was that I thought you was a PR, so I had to push you to ensure my play remained consistent.

Oh I agree with this. I was saying you had more room to push me. You were by far the better player on our team.

oh right, i misread.

and nah, i think we just bounced off of each other well. i don't think there was a 'standout' player between us.

[faüstiv]

btw that is a beautiful faustiv pt

it was a very stressful game.

[faüstiv]

hey gg all, very well played by scum! I knew we should never let Titus get away with that hammer!! I really disagree with the idea that there's any way to spin that move as town-oriented and am happy to continue discussing in a chiller post-game environment (if anyone actually legit wants that, lol).

I quoted the mod because that was the most objective and simple way to express the point that what Titus was saying was fundamentally unsound in terms of how everyone agrees is the correct way to play the game. I definitely coulda been more patient/calm in how I pushed it but I stand by the fact that there's no real way to defend a hammer like that in response to a doc claim on D1, even if he did say it was a "soft" claim.

Absolutely no hard feelings towards anyone for how they played, I played poorly myself (went out scumreading two town lol) and I think even if we had best case got Titus on d2 it would have still been a hard game to win as faustiv was playing extremely well. I think this was genuinely a full team loss where everybody made mistakes that lead to none of us blocking together to catch scum and scum did a great job capitalizing on each of those mistakes.

Thanks for modding Plotinus (and ND39)! Game was super smooth.

nah I'm with you. If I was town I probably would have hard scumread Titus at D2 start too. Whether that read would have changed as D2 progressed... idk.

[faüstiv]

you really threw me with the PR speculating thing, that was well executed. haven't seen scum pull that one to such a degree before

it was definitely a risk but no risk, no reward.

tbh i just didn't back myself to win the game on my own if titus was lynched so I had to think outside the box.