Newbie 1986 - Game Over

[Aloratom]

VOTE: Natsu

That is all.

[Aloratom]

I’m bad at communication.

Where are we at in the Cavern of Illusion? Did an armored critter spit poison at you or something?

[Aloratom]

WOW no wonder you got there before me

Answer. The. Question.

What question are you trying to get answered?

[Aloratom]

WOW no wonder you got there before me

Answer. The. Question.

What question are you trying to get answered?

[Aloratom]

UNVOTE: All

[Aloratom]

I'm generally not high volume, and I like to read.

[Aloratom]

Anything in particular you want to talk about?

[Aloratom]

Anything in particular you want to talk about?

What are your thoughts on L-2 (or 1) in newbie games during RVS?

L-2 is fine. It gets conversation moving. L-1 is generally fine also. I don't have actual numbers, but I'm guessing someone is going to drop it back to L-2 pretty quickly close to 99% of the time. And if they don't, I think people are smart enough to know that a quickhammer at that point is an auto-lynch D2, and it's not worth the lulz. Really, why spend one or two weeks waiting to catch a game and then purposely get yourself kicked within a few days after doing so?

[Aloratom]

He meant the question about how larping an RPG might bury the game in useless info.

Thank you. He was talking about your question, not his own. I missed that.

[Aloratom]

@thenavneet @Aloratom

Do you have any new reads since RVS? Surprisingly a lot has happened in only 6 pages.

Did you draw two names out of a hat?

[Aloratom]

VOTE: AloraTom

UNVOTE: All

Why did you unvote here?

Natsu was a RVS vote. I'm town leaning him right now.

[Aloratom]

You're playing a bit differently from 1978 Frost. You pushed people to make reads in that game.

That's a good game to read. A good game to learn from. I personally made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot by re-reading it and have tried to adjust accordingly.

[Aloratom]

Natsu was a RVS vote. I'm town leaning him right now.

Right, but is there anyone you want to push right now?

I'm in the middle of a conversation with dsjstr right now. TSE seems to want to be part of it too, but I want to hear more from djstsr -- he interests me. volxen, as you know, can be a puzzle. You pique my curiosity. And I'll be interested in the replacement. I don't have a hard scum read or really even much of a lean on anyone yet. Too early for me on that.

What about you? Other than me, Jumble and Spy, who do you want to see more from?

[Aloratom]

It looks like we're full up now. I can be a bit more thoughtful. I've played with, what, half of you I think. It's early on, and I don't have reads so much as leans.

Whoever said Natsu is posting more, which is different than when he was scum, was right. I don't know whether this is AI. I do find his posting style different. I don't know if that's because his alignment has changed though since the last game we played together. My posting style has changed also, and that's beacause of the reasons I mentioned in 168. Natsu does seem to be trying to solve. I'm not sure that I'm following his logic, and I'm definitely not following his "we should default town read everyone" lead. But overall, I'm getting townish vibes here.

IMASPY I misread last time I played with him, I'm not going to have the No Lynch argument side argument with him again (not whether it's a good idea or not -- it's not -- but whether he's suggesting it as an option by bringing it up). I don't know why he thinks volxen is Town. I don't get a Town feel from volxen. Kinda like I don't know why djstsr has Natsu as scum. I'm not feeling that one either. Spy's a slight Town lean.

dsjstr says he's trying a new game style. I haven't meta read him and don't intend to, so I'll take him at his word. He's coming across not as hostile, but as serious, driven. I don't understand his "It is my apologies" post (192) -- maybe explain that? Nor do I understad the scum read on Natsu. I respect him backing down from the L-1 wagon on TSE. It's too early to risk a quickhammer. I think probably 90%+ of the time someone will back down in that kind of wagon, but with TSE it's especially dicely and, this is not trying to be disrespectful to TSE, you just don't know what's coming next from him even if it isn't in his best interest, so dsjstr may have recognized that and dropped back. That's a Town play, as was him blowing off my question about the drawing names out of a hat. I'm leaning Town on dsjstr.

Jumble's a Town lean also. He's engaging with a few players, including me, rightfully. Wasn't concerned about the RVS wagon on him, which is a Town tell I think. Questioning TSE on TSE's made-up percentages is proper.

72offsuit looks like a good replacement. I'm looking forward to more from him.

GeorgeBailey seems to be more active than I recall. I really don't understand the scumread on Spy. If he wants to scumread me for fence sitting or lurking, I guess that's okay although it seems weak. What I find interesting is his first post, 41, where he runs through a couple of questions with volxen and then votes TSE, saying immediately after the vote "Can't believe you rolled scum again man." Which could apply to either TSE or volxen. It's quite a move if it was intentional. I don't know if scum would do this, but I think GB is swift enough that he just might. I'm giving him a slight scum lean here.

volxen I see posts but about as much content as me prior to this post. Gut null scum lean.

TSE just spouts words in no particular order, and I don't think I'm disrespecting him by saying this. He knows that he has communication issues, but in general, if you look his posts over a couple times you can get what he's trying to say --usually. Sometimes I need clarification, and I'll ask him. I haven't been able to keep up with his "solves" this game, and his percentages are bogus in my opinion. I like the LARPing -- I don't think it was a distraction. I don't think any of his stuff is scummy right now. A more experienced player than I said something about it being important to distinguish bad play from scummy play. I think that may apply here. The only thing I don't really like is the word vomit tends to pollute the thread, but that's easy to get over. I like TSE in general, and I haven't seen anything scummy out of him yet here. He could have let djstsr answer my question. Of course he was calling out two low volume posters -- I just wanted to see what he had to say. I'm leaning Town.

VOTE: volxen

[Aloratom]

What about you? Other than me, Jumble and Spy, who do you want to see more from?

Well, the replacement is an obvious one. And more from Volx would be nice. I would really like to know who he scumreads other than TSE. But I was asking this because you're leaving your vote in Limbo. If you want to hear more from ds (i'm assuming from your response), then why aren't you voting him?

Aside from TSE I think that Alora is scummy. He didn't really provide any reasoning for his jump on me, as all he said in his wallpost was that he doesn't get a town feel from me and that I've posted about as much as he has. As with TSE he has been vague on why he scumreads me, and if there is more to his read on me beyond "not getting a town feel" then he should elaborate. DS was also someone who pushed me, but his push on me is the most believable because he explained his reasoning -- that he didn't like that some of my early posts focused on setup/mechanics (the L-2/L-1 thing). I could actually follow his thought process with respect to his read on me, whereas that has been absent from both TSE and Alora.

A "null scum lean" is a jump on you? Got it.

[Aloratom]

TSE has had three other newbie games, all of which were mafia. I have no town games of his to cross-reference and I'm not about to muddy the waters with non-newbie games and their altered roles and mechanics. My site meta is actually the same as his, just three other mafia games, for the record.

His posting style seems similar in all of these games for the most part. He comes under extreme attack in all of these games, occasionally getting mass scum-read instantly and Day 1 lynched. The whole "I have bad communication" doesn't ever come up in those games, and none of the other players seem to have trouble understanding him in those games. That's the one major difference: He seems easier to understand in those games. Also, he doesn't bother with percentages at all. This is completely new behavior to allocate precise percentages for a RVS wagon by page two and to lock it in based on "gamestate" feelings.

In the 1982 game it did come up the day he was lynched. He was asked to put forth a coherent argument regarding whether he should be lynched or someone else should, and he did. It was his best post of the game. The principle difference between this game and that game that I see is that he's focusing more on other players than on himself. (TSE I hope I'm using the right pronouns by now, apologies if not) He's still posting a lot, but he seems to be trying to solve, even if I think he's going about it in a faulty manner. I can't quite follow his logic, but the effort appears to be there. (That's what I mean by the difference between scummy play and bad play, volxen) I don't think we're seeing scum!TSE this game.

[Aloratom]

Natsu seems to think I’m buddies with Alo so to give GB more creditability and to get reaction off Natsu
I’m thinking we lynch Alo.

Also keep in mind.
Natsu Defended Jumble as not to lynch Day 1
Spy Defended Natsu as not to lynch Day 1

Makes me think the teams as simple as Spy/Alo but yet I still can’t get any Town vibes from Volxen.

If Alora is scum, why do you think that Spy is more likely than me to be his partner?

It’s hard for me to call Jumble, Natsu AND Spy.
All Town.

So your current solve is that there is one scum in {Alora, me} and one scum in {Jumble, Natsu, Spy}? You mentioned a Spy/Alora team but who out of those three do you think is the most likely to be partnered with me?

And regarding Natsu I think that he is town. He's been defending my slot a fair amount, and he even at one point responded to a post from DS where DS misunderstood one of my posts before I could respond to DS myself (182). Given the current gamestate, I don't think that it makes sense for scum!Natsu to defend me as that doesn't really benefit him. Scum usually buddy/defend town players that are widely townread to get on their good side, and when they defend town players that are getting scumread it's usually because they believe that said town player is going to get lynched anyways and they want the town credit for opposing the lynch and calling them town before they flipped green. Neither of those apply here, as I'm not widely townread and it's too early in the day phase to know who is going to get lynched. I believe that Natsu believes the things that he has been saying about my slot.

It's too early in the day to know the lynch, but at the time of your post TSE is at L-1? Am I missing something?

[Aloratom]

It's basically what you brought up. You're right that he never got upset before about being scum-read and being at L-2/L-1. That's the main thing that's seriously making me doubt my vote on him at this moment. I just don't know if we even have a better target. Aloratom is playing very differently from what I remember when he was town, granted that was endgame and this is early game. But he seemed way more active in the game I had with him. I think it's pretty clear that collectively we simply aren't going to lynch 72offsuit, Jumble, GeorgeBailey, myself, IMASPY, or dsjstr today. It's really about who is scummier among TSE, Aloratom, and Volxen. Something might happen to where SPY or dsjstr becomes a viable target for lynch, but right now it's a three-way race. TSE and aloratom are both scumreading Volxen, and they both seem to be trying really hard to make a case out of nothing against him, as I've pointed out. TSE then pivoted to aloratom when it didn't seem like that was working out.

That's basically where I am now. Just waiting to see what anyone else can add.

Yes, I'm playing differently. I made a lot of mistakes in that game. I don't understand the rush to lynch in this game. I don't mind being a candidate if it helps the win condition, but I think there should be more discussion. But if not, that's okay too. I still don't know how a null scum lean is a scum read on volxen, but whatever. I don't have a strong scum read on anyone yet. Someone's inevitably going to point to a wiki page and say that's a scum tell. That's fine. There a wiki page for that I'm sure. There's a wiki page for everything. I just know that I've made too many rush judgments in my three months here, and I'm working at my own pace this game. If it gets me lynched, so be it.

[Aloratom]

Jumble's a Town lean also. He's engaging with a few players, including me, rightfully. Wasn't concerned about the RVS wagon on him, which is a Town tell I think. Questioning TSE on TSE's made-up percentages is proper.

Yeah, getting worked up over an RVS wagon against you can be a scumtell.

72offsuit looks like a good replacement. I'm looking forward to more from him.

This feels really lack-luster when commenting on 72. What do you think about his entry post?

volxen I see posts but about as much content as me prior to this post. Gut null scum lean.

Is Volx's lack of content the only reason why you're scumleaning him?

WRT to 72 offsuit I think his entry post was fine. His reads were replacement reads, based on a read through or two and did not develop organically. Replacement reads are generally like that. It's a difficult position to be in. I don't know that I agree with them, but I'm not going to go through and critique each one right now. I think people are misunderstanding me saying he looks like he'll be a good replacement with him being Town. I don't have a read after a few hours of him being in the game yet. What I meant by good replacement is he appears he will be active. My null scum lean on volxen is essentially based on a lack of content. And, admittedly, my take on you is weak right now as well. It comes down to POE in the end for both of you.

Where are you with Natsu? I think there's an arrogance there that gives me a strong Town feel rather than being happy blending in. I ask because my experience with him has differed in the past.

[Aloratom]

This reads list feels a bit shallow after a massive lurk - I feel its mainly full of vibes without really referencing any posts to back up reads, which gives me a feel of reads-list for the sake of a list.

Your reads on Natsu feels like it could be genuine. I'm not too big on meta, still null read on him myself.

Your read on IMA makes no sense to me. You disagree with IMA's reads and then state that you TR IMA. Zero clarficiation.

Agree with your reads on Jumble and DSJ as town right now, but you havent provided any fresh reads as to why they may be town.

Your line regarding me, 72offsuit looks like a good replacement. I'm looking forward to more from him"", feels like scum trying to pocket me after I stated my slight scumlean on you. Zero comment on the actual content in my reads list.

Dont agree with your scum read and the reasoning on GB. You say fence sitting is weak - I think its a big scumtell. I called you out on fence sitting first.
Why did you not respond to my accusation of fence sitting, but rather to GB?

You give a scum lean to Volxen, someone who has posted about as much as you. Going by your own logic, why are you not scum for your lurking?

Your read on TSE, you dismiss his scuminess as 'bad play'. I don;t see his play as bad at all. I think he is scummy scum.

IMASPY -- misread last time, don't understand his read on volxen -- thus slight town lean -- understand? slight town lean -- want clarification? go to dictionary look up "slight" "lean"

72offsuit -- good replacement as in active replacement. Zero comments on your reads list because it was posted one hour before I posted, and I didn't want to go through it but I wanted to acknowledge it.

GB -- See above

volxen -- I assigned a null scum lean. Given your logic, why am I not a null scum lean?

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

[Aloratom]

If TSE flips red that simplifies things I think, but I'm not sure it's that easy.

[Aloratom]

@IMASPY In case it wasn't clear my 358 wasn't directed at you it was in response to 72offsuit. You were just the first one on the list. But I appreciate your 360.

[Aloratom]

@IMASPY In case it wasn't clear my 358 wasn't directed at you it was in response to 72offsuit. You were just the first one on the list. But I appreciate your 360.

And WTF is this.

That’s it.
I’m convinced the team is Spy and Alo.

Think about it. Wouldn't have I put that in the PT if that were so?

[Aloratom]

TSE has had three other newbie games, all of which were mafia. I have no town games of his to cross-reference and I'm not about to muddy the waters with non-newbie games and their altered roles and mechanics. My site meta is actually the same as his, just three other mafia games, for the record.

His posting style seems similar in all of these games for the most part. He comes under extreme attack in all of these games, occasionally getting mass scum-read instantly and Day 1 lynched. The whole "I have bad communication" doesn't ever come up in those games, and none of the other players seem to have trouble understanding him in those games. That's the one major difference: He seems easier to understand in those games. Also, he doesn't bother with percentages at all. This is completely new behavior to allocate precise percentages for a RVS wagon by page two and to lock it in based on "gamestate" feelings.

In the 1982 game it did come up the day he was lynched. He was asked to put forth a coherent argument regarding whether he should be lynched or someone else should, and he did. It was his best post of the game. The principle difference between this game and that game that I see is that he's focusing more on other players than on himself. (TSE I hope I'm using the right pronouns by now, apologies if not) He's still posting a lot, but he seems to be trying to solve, even if I think he's going about it in a faulty manner. I can't quite follow his logic, but the effort appears to be there. (That's what I mean by the difference between scummy play and bad play, volxen) I don't think we're seeing scum!TSE this game.

I agree with you to the extent that TSE has talked about other slots more in this game compared to Newbie 1982, and that he's been putting effort into this game. But why do you believe that these things are strongly town-indicative for TSE?

You really need to stop putting words into my mouth -- it's getting annoying. I don't believe I ever said I was reading TSE strongly town, just that I don't think we're seeing a scum!TSE in this game. As scum, he was able to have fun and mess around. You can see it in his interactions with Jackson Virgo in that 1982 game; you were there. I don't know if I'm right. I'm basing this off of one game I replaced in and read a few times. He doesn't seem to be enjoying this game nearly as much, if at all. He genuinely appears to be trying to solve. He didn't have to do that when he was scum. That's all.

[Aloratom]

TSE has had three other newbie games, all of which were mafia. I have no town games of his to cross-reference and I'm not about to muddy the waters with non-newbie games and their altered roles and mechanics. My site meta is actually the same as his, just three other mafia games, for the record.

His posting style seems similar in all of these games for the most part. He comes under extreme attack in all of these games, occasionally getting mass scum-read instantly and Day 1 lynched. The whole "I have bad communication" doesn't ever come up in those games, and none of the other players seem to have trouble understanding him in those games. That's the one major difference: He seems easier to understand in those games. Also, he doesn't bother with percentages at all. This is completely new behavior to allocate precise percentages for a RVS wagon by page two and to lock it in based on "gamestate" feelings.

In the 1982 game it did come up the day he was lynched. He was asked to put forth a coherent argument regarding whether he should be lynched or someone else should, and he did. It was his best post of the game. The principle difference between this game and that game that I see is that he's focusing more on other players than on himself. (TSE I hope I'm using the right pronouns by now, apologies if not) He's still posting a lot, but he seems to be trying to solve, even if I think he's going about it in a faulty manner. I can't quite follow his logic, but the effort appears to be there. (That's what I mean by the difference between scummy play and bad play, volxen) I don't think we're seeing scum!TSE this game.

I agree with you to the extent that TSE has talked about other slots more in this game compared to Newbie 1982, and that he's been putting effort into this game. But why do you believe that these things are strongly town-indicative for TSE?

You really need to stop putting words into my mouth -- it's getting annoying. I don't believe I ever said I was reading TSE strongly town, just that I don't think we're seeing a scum!TSE in this game. As scum, he was able to have fun and mess around. You can see it in his interactions with Jackson Virgo in that 1982 game; you were there. I don't know if I'm right. I'm basing this off of one game I replaced in and read a few times. He doesn't seem to be enjoying this game nearly as much, if at all. He genuinely appears to be trying to solve. He didn't have to do that when he was scum. That's all.

I'll add to this that TSE's overall defensiveness is wearing thin, but the desperation isn't there. That, along with the effort shift right now is enough for me to believe that he didn't roll scum for the 4th time.

[Aloratom]

EXACTLY

He thinks because he said that he thinks he gets to have Town Credit.

He’s clearly caught scum by yours truly and is trying to make any play possible to get a mafia win.

NGL that’s how scum play.

Scum try and get as much Town credit to the point they gain a win.
IMO he’s just openly doing a poor job at it.

What does NGL mean?

[Aloratom]

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

VOTE: 72offsuit

[Aloratom]

EXACTLY

He thinks because he said that he thinks he gets to have Town Credit.

He’s clearly caught scum by yours truly and is trying to make any play possible to get a mafia win.

NGL that’s how scum play.

Scum try and get as much Town credit to the point they gain a win.
IMO he’s just openly doing a poor job at it.

What does NGL mean?

“Not gonna lie”

Thank you.

[Aloratom]

Tell me why 72 is Town.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: Volxen

I’d rather we lynch this as if he is scum it’ll be harder to get him lynched later on then that of Spy and Alo.

So you think Alora is bussing Volxen right now?

Your switching between established wagons is kind of concerning too.

Thing is I’m not entirely sure.
The only thing I’m 100% sure about is You, DS and 72 is Town.

I’m not entirely sure which out of Alo/Volxen is scum but this is definitely a TVS or SvS.

That’s why I’m going back and fourth trying to figure out which one of thems most likely to flip scum.

As for Spy. If they are Mafia. They are Mafia Goon.

So from your point of view:

TSE, GB, dsjstr, and 72 are Lock Town

Aloratom, volxen and IMASPY are the Scum Pool

Natsu and Jumble are ???

[Aloratom]

TSE/Alora would also kind of make sense. Since they're both pushing the Volxen wagon which is arguably TSE's counter wagon.

This makes sense.

[Aloratom]

TSE has had three other newbie games, all of which were mafia. I have no town games of his to cross-reference and I'm not about to muddy the waters with non-newbie games and their altered roles and mechanics. My site meta is actually the same as his, just three other mafia games, for the record.

His posting style seems similar in all of these games for the most part. He comes under extreme attack in all of these games, occasionally getting mass scum-read instantly and Day 1 lynched. The whole "I have bad communication" doesn't ever come up in those games, and none of the other players seem to have trouble understanding him in those games. That's the one major difference: He seems easier to understand in those games. Also, he doesn't bother with percentages at all. This is completely new behavior to allocate precise percentages for a RVS wagon by page two and to lock it in based on "gamestate" feelings.

In the 1982 game it did come up the day he was lynched. He was asked to put forth a coherent argument regarding whether he should be lynched or someone else should, and he did. It was his best post of the game. The principle difference between this game and that game that I see is that he's focusing more on other players than on himself. (TSE I hope I'm using the right pronouns by now, apologies if not) He's still posting a lot, but he seems to be trying to solve, even if I think he's going about it in a faulty manner. I can't quite follow his logic, but the effort appears to be there. (That's what I mean by the difference between scummy play and bad play, volxen) I don't think we're seeing scum!TSE this game.

I agree with you to the extent that TSE has talked about other slots more in this game compared to Newbie 1982, and that he's been putting effort into this game. But why do you believe that these things are strongly town-indicative for TSE?

You really need to stop putting words into my mouth -- it's getting annoying. I don't believe I ever said I was reading TSE strongly town, just that I don't think we're seeing a scum!TSE in this game. As scum, he was able to have fun and mess around. You can see it in his interactions with Jackson Virgo in that 1982 game; you were there. I don't know if I'm right. I'm basing this off of one game I replaced in and read a few times. He doesn't seem to be enjoying this game nearly as much, if at all. He genuinely appears to be trying to solve. He didn't have to do that when he was scum. That's all.

I think that we are getting into semantics here – you have repeatedly said that you don’t think that we are seeing scum!TSE in this game, which implies that your town read on him isn’t weak. Everything that you are saying about his scumplay in Newbie 1982 is correct – yes, he joked around a lot and mostly focused on defending himself in that game. But I also don’t think that scum!TSE would play this game the same way that he played Newbie 1982, which is why I’m evaluating his slot solely based on his gameplay in this game. I’ve only played one game with town!TSE (Assassin’s Mafia) and one game with scum!TSE (Newbie 1982), so I can’t really reliably take meta into account with respect to my read on his slot as I don’t have enough completed games with him to do that.

If Newbie 1982 never happened, would your read on his slot be exactly the same as it is now? I’m curious as to how much of your read on him comes down to comparing his gameplay in this game vs his gameplay in Newbie 1982.

If it came across as anything but weak, then that's my fault. It's a weak town read. I don't have a strong or lock read on anyone. I realize that's probably a scum tell. That's fine. I'm not worried about that right now. If 1982 hadn't had happened, I'd want to policy lynch him because I think his posts confuse the timeline, and as we get closer to the deadline and no clear scum candidate appears to me, I may support that. But as of now, I don't have that. And if it turns out he's scum, so much the better.

[Aloratom]

TSE/Alora would also kind of make sense. Since they're both pushing the Volxen wagon which is arguably TSE's counter wagon.

This makes sense.

Then there’s you who I’m also suspecting to be mafia.

That hasn't changed, has it?

[Aloratom]

I know I had just said they seemed TvS but based on previous knowledge of both players as see this ending up being TvT.

Alo would be my top scum read now. I just don't see him as caring about solving the game.

You're talking about Spy and TSE as TvT?

[Aloratom]

This reads list feels a bit shallow after a massive lurk - I feel its mainly full of vibes without really referencing any posts to back up reads, which gives me a feel of reads-list for the sake of a list.

Your reads on Natsu feels like it could be genuine. I'm not too big on meta, still null read on him myself.

Your read on IMA makes no sense to me. You disagree with IMA's reads and then state that you TR IMA. Zero clarficiation.

Agree with your reads on Jumble and DSJ as town right now, but you havent provided any fresh reads as to why they may be town.

Your line regarding me, 72offsuit looks like a good replacement. I'm looking forward to more from him"", feels like scum trying to pocket me after I stated my slight scumlean on you. Zero comment on the actual content in my reads list.

Dont agree with your scum read and the reasoning on GB. You say fence sitting is weak - I think its a big scumtell. I called you out on fence sitting first.
Why did you not respond to my accusation of fence sitting, but rather to GB?

You give a scum lean to Volxen, someone who has posted about as much as you. Going by your own logic, why are you not scum for your lurking?

Your read on TSE, you dismiss his scuminess as 'bad play'. I don;t see his play as bad at all. I think he is scummy scum.

IMASPY -- misread last time, don't understand his read on volxen -- thus slight town lean -- understand? slight town lean -- want clarification? go to dictionary look up "slight" "lean"

72offsuit -- good replacement as in active replacement. Zero comments on your reads list because it was posted one hour before I posted,

and I didn't want to go through it but I wanted to acknowledge it.

GB --

See above

volxen -- I assigned a null scum lean. Given your logic, why am I not a null scum lean?

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

He did not finish his list and he wanted us to figure out how to place 72 and GB, those two are not even reads?

Those that weren't on the reply list were those that I agreed with 72offsuit's interpretation of my reads on.With 72offsuit I did not have a read on at the time, but wanted to clear up the "good" vs "active" language. And with GB, "see above" was as in "see above my response regarding why I didn't respond to 72offsuit's readlist but still wanted to acknowledge it."

[Aloratom]

Yes

Thank you.

[Aloratom]

No questions for it at all?!? Just gonna let me scum read Alo without explaining myself!?!

Spoiler:

I don't think anyone followed up on this. I'm interested.

[Aloratom]

Yes

Thank you.

Do you agree with me?

I lean that way.

What do you think of Jumble's ISO?

I stab you to death

Good entrance

@Jumble DSJ never pointed out that theres scum on your wagon. Only questioned why volx thinks it might be all town. Why do you think scum would form a wagon on you so early?

Agh, skimmed too hard and misread a post. I guess they would wagon me based on my username bc it's easy to make fun of? There's not really much to form a wagon on in RVS.

Not concerned with RVS wagon, which is good.

Do you think scum!you would be voted on by your partner from what the Game State is currently at RN?

Probably not, but you still need to answer my question about making claims this early.

Followed-up here, which is good.

@Aloratom why are you posting so little?

Anything in particular you want to talk about?

What are your thoughts on L-2 (or 1) in newbie games during RVS?

No follow-up after I answered.

We should wait till day 5 to lynch off a slot for being inactive. Likely we will have a replacement come in.

Do newbie games even make it to day 5 with any sort of consistency?

No follow-up.

Sure, there might be a link between lurking and being scum, but at the same time I'm pretty sure Navneet has just completely flaked and we should wait for his replacement. GB is also a bit lurky, but we can fix that by sending a few questions his way. As for volxen, I'm not really sure why you want to push a lynch on him exactly. Could you explain your reasoning?

No follow-up.

I'm interested in Jumbles recent post though. @Jumble, what questions do you have for me?

Why are you town-reading Alora?

No follow-up.

Those percentages seem a bit too precise to me. Do you really know your confidence down to the percent?

No follow-up.

Two RVS votes.

Dead silence.

[Aloratom]

Welcome, Clidd. Hope you brought a torch.

[Aloratom]

Game state summary ?

It looks like half-way through Day 1 we have a Town solve:

I'm going to revisit you tomorrow TSE. Right now I'm leaning Aloratom + TSE scum team if anyone is wondering.

I am def willing to die to kill TSE. For every 1 post that has some towiness there are 3 or 4 that contribute nothing to town or look scummy.

Alo could very well be his scum team.

TSE/Alora would also kind of make sense. Since they're both pushing the Volxen wagon which is arguably TSE's counter wagon.

This is my way of agreeing with dsjstr on the GB/TSE team.

If TSE is scum I don't think that George is necessarily his most likely partner. TSE and Alora both individually have scum equity and I don't see anything that rules them out as partners. TSE and George have been mutually townreading/defending each other, and with the scrutiny they have both come under I think that it's questionable that their strategy as scum would be mutual defense rather than distancing in this gamestate. Whereas with TSE and Alora, Alora has been consistent in townreading TSE and TSE has been consistent in scumreading Alora. If TSE and Alora are scum together then this one-sided distancing makes sense, as TSE's wagon picked up steam and got up to L-1 whereas Alora's wagon has stalled, so it would be more risky for Alora to push TSE compared to the other way around.

But associatives aside I just think that TSE and Alora are the two scummiest slots in the game.

Agree with this analysis Re TSE scum partner. I don;t recall many mafia games online nor IRL where both scum defend each other. I dont understand the IMA-lynch followed by GB-lynch plan, when TSE and ALo are the scummiest.

So really, we just need to exercise the mechanics and we can all go home.

[Aloratom]

So really, we just need to exercise the mechanics and we can all go home.

You are just accepting the fact that most people see you and TSE as the scum team?

I thought you just said you agreed with my read about TSE and Spy both being town.

Those are two different things that can be factual statements simultaneously.

[Aloratom]

I'm either between TSE and Aloratom. TSE is obviously my main focus, but the thing about how he's groveling and making weird excuses when he didn't play like this before is giving me pause. Then again, he might also want to mix things up a bit if he just got lynched three times in a row. He just keeps saying the weirdest stuff like:

As long as You, GB and DS are never lynched I think we win.

Why the hell would you say that if you're town? Giving mafia instructions on who to kill? And GB + DS could easily be argued into a lynch in my opinion. They aren't nearly as obv-town as Jumble or Offsuit.

TSE aside -- I'm assuming he's the lynch. Why do you have Jumble/Clidd as obvious Town?

[Aloratom]

We went over that already pretty early on.

Yes, you unilaterally declared him lock Town in the first 100 posts because his posts are incredible:

Just gonna throw this out there, but all of Jumble's posts are incredible, and I think we can go ahead and give him a hard town-read. He's just straight up town, lock it in, put it in the books. No further discussion is really required.

Everyone has confirmed. The deadline for Day 1 is unpaused.

Votecount 1.01

NotAJumbleofNumbers (3) -

dsjstr, thenavneet, IMASPY

IMASPY (1) -

NotAJumbleofNumbers

Natsu (1) -

Aloratom

GeorgeBailey (1) -

volxen

TrueSoulEnergy (1) -

GeorgeBailey

Not Voting (2) -

Natsu, TrueSoulEnergy

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2020-02-29 17:45:00).

If Jumble is Scum I think it’s safe to assume DS, Spy and Nav are Locked Town.
Based upon a PoE basis.
Didn’t feel like a W/W place on Jumble anywhere.


So keep this in mind and feel free to save this post of mine as a reminder.

If Jumble Flips Scum. DS, Spy and Navneet are Town!

This logic doesn't follow at all. This is a completely fake wagon made on page 1/2. There could easily be scum voting for scum on it. But I told you guys that jumble is town. We will all treat them as if they are town, full stop. If this strategy becomes problematic then we will revisit them on day 2/3. But for now, we must all town-lock jumble.

It's pretty self-explanatory. We all read jumble as town.

It's pretty self-explanatory. We all read jumble as town.

That makes me want to town read Jumble less, and it seems so obvious that I have to imagine that you are trying to get him lynched.

VOTE: Natsu

So you town read him less, and then vote for me because I am trying to get him lynched? What? So if he is less of a town read he is more of a scum read. But then you also see me as more of a scum read. Now explain to me how it makes any sense for scum!me to treat my scum partner this way.

Then we see no substantive activity from that slot until his replacement comes in. Let's see what a new Day brings.

[Aloratom]

I had a revelation this evening, TSE, as if the sky opened up and the rugged hand of God reached down from the heavens and tapped me on the shoulder. "Aloratom," whispered the Almighty, with a wisdom that chilled the bones, "What did you do in Newbie 1986?" The hand lingered for just a second, then drew back, and the sky closed, leaving the scarlet-orange sun setting beneath the valley in the West, with the bright glow of Venus rising just above. The question wasn't why I had done what I did; it was what had I done. It was so clear then, as if I had just fallen in the bathroom and discovered the flux capacitor.

This entire game, I've been asking people to disregard my past games because I've changed my play style, yet I've been reading people based on my play experience with them. That's about a lock double standard as there is.

In that vein, when I look at this game in a vacuum, I have to agree with the majority and confer a scum read on you. You are overly defensive, you're implicating nearly everyone on the roster and you are just confusing the thread with illogic and made up figures. In fact, I would declare intent, but I don't think that would give Town the information they want. I honestly believe that cutting your position will result in a net benefit to Town.

[Aloratom]

@TSE If Jumble is town, then would you say that one of those three players has to be scum?

And what on earth is that word salad of a last sentence? I have read it probably 8 times and I still cannot gather any meaning from it.

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy

I'm fairly positive you are mafia right now. I really don't see myself changing my mind on this for Day 1.

I really don't understand why you're taking this gambit with you being the first one to go. If you really know you're town and you think one of TSE and GB might be scum then you should really just keep pressuring for the last vote on TSE, rather than let yourself get killed pointlessly while scum gets to perform night kills.

EXACTLY

He thinks because he said that he thinks he gets to have Town Credit.

He’s clearly caught scum by yours truly and is trying to make any play possible to get a mafia win.

NGL that’s how scum play.

Scum try and get as much Town credit to the point they gain a win.
IMO he’s just openly doing a poor job at it.

UNVOTE: TSE for now. We might also have a replacement coming through

What say you now?

[Aloratom]

I had a revelation this evening, TSE, as if the sky opened up and the rugged hand of God reached down from the heavens and tapped me on the shoulder. "Aloratom," whispered the Almighty, with a wisdom that chilled the bones, "What did you do in Newbie 1986?" The hand lingered for just a second, then drew back, and the sky closed, leaving the scarlet-orange sun setting beneath the valley in the West, with the bright glow of Venus rising just above. The question wasn't why I had done what I did; it was what had I done. It was so clear then, as if I had just fallen in the bathroom and discovered the flux capacitor.

This entire game, I've been asking people to disregard my past games because I've changed my play style, yet I've been reading people based on my play experience with them. That's about a lock double standard as there is.

In that vein, when I look at this game in a vacuum, I have to agree with the majority and confer a scum read on you. You are overly defensive, you're implicating nearly everyone on the roster and you are just confusing the thread with illogic and made up figures. In fact, I would declare intent, but I don't think that would give Town the information they want. I honestly believe that cutting your position will result in a net benefit to Town.

I don’t mean to jump to conclusions. But I feel like if your scum your buddy told you to do this.
Don’t hammer me though until Clidd responds to my answers.

Actually, I'd rather we lynch actual mafia. I thought you might change your answer, but you're consistent. I'll give you that. There's been so much attention on you that I'm afraid the actual scum are slipping away. Like I said, I'm not going to hammer you -- more than half the roster thinks I'm scum as it is so we learn nothing from me hammering. It will need to be someone else. If you had your preference, who would it be, and what do you think that would tell us?

[Aloratom]

What, as your proxy?

[Aloratom]

Let's let Clidd read what he wants. I'm going to head home.

[Aloratom]

Odd NK, I was thinking clidd would be the target because he's obv town for everyone.

I probably won't get my list done tonight but I still think Alo is scum, will give full details later.

DS scumread Alora EOD yesterday. Which could be a lead? I'm already scumreadong Alora so it fits. Could be conf bias though.

So pretty much my top scumreads are Alora and Natsu.

VOTE: AloraTom

Natsu's alignment will become very apparent after TSE's flip.

But i'm feeling better about Alora being scum.

VOTE: Aloratom

I want to point out that this post has me really questioning GB. Why is my alignment in particular so tied to TSE's alignment? Other people have been on top of TSE just as much as I have.

Odd NK, I was thinking clidd would be the target because he's obv town for everyone.

I probably won't get my list done tonight but I still think Alo is scum, will give full details later.

DS scumread Alora EOD yesterday. Which could be a lead? I'm already scumreadong Alora so it fits. Could be conf bias though.

So pretty much my top scumreads are Alora and Natsu.

VOTE: AloraTom

Don't you think dsjstr is too obvious? You've been scum reading me since 153:

Natsu's alignment will become very apparent after TSE's flip.

But i'm feeling better about Alora being scum.

VOTE: Aloratom

I want to point out that this post has me really questioning GB. Why is my alignment in particular so tied to TSE's alignment? Other people have been on top of TSE just as much as I have.

VOTE: AloraTom

UNVOTE: All

Why did you unvote here?

Natsu's alignment will become very apparent after TSE's flip.

But i'm feeling better about Alora being scum.

VOTE: Aloratom

You'd make more sense as the Night Kill if I were mafia.

You're guilty of tunneling me same as what you accused Natsu of with regard to Jumble. And Jumble/Clidd as obv!town makes no sense yet. Clidd's made up a lot of ground there, but not enough yet.

[Aloratom]

Aloratom, I would like you to describe your general impressions about TSE. It's important.

TSE comes across as a challenged writer who cannot convey an idea clearly. He reminds me of a kid who forgot to take his Ritalin. If you read his posts 3 or 4 times you can usually get what he's trying to say, but it's a lot of work, and sometimes you still don't understand. I've seen him as Town once (this game) and as Scum once. As Town he appeared more serious, more sincere, than he did as Mafia. In that game, though, he had a friend (I don't know if an on-board or IRL friend) who was Town who he was trying to pocket. He was having fun with the role. He was desperate to stay alive when it came to L-1. In this game, I didn't feel that same desperation from him. I also didn't feel that same sense that he was enjoying what he was doing. Overall, his posts really distract from the game and make it difficult to play. I hate to say that about any particular player. I hope that as he plays more his style improves.

[Aloratom]

And whether he is a good or bad player it's not for me to judge. I can really only comment on his style.

[Aloratom]

No questions for it at all?!? Just gonna let me scum read Alo without explaining myself!?!

Spoiler:

I don't think anyone followed up on this. I'm interested.

Spy -- Can you take a crack on this one now, and has anything changed since the TSE flip?

[Aloratom]

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

VOTE: 72offsuit

72offsuit -- I don't know if you're dodging me or if you missed this, but I've asked twice.

[Aloratom]

And whether he is a good or bad player it's not for me to judge. I can really only comment on his style.

Hum. If you noticed the discrepancy in his reaction to the hammer, why didn't you highlight that during the conversation that preceded his lynch ?

I did. Before you repped in. I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Aloratom]

And whether he is a good or bad player it's not for me to judge. I can really only comment on his style.

Hum. If you noticed the discrepancy in his reaction to the hammer, why didn't you highlight that during the conversation that preceded his lynch ?

I did. Before you repped in. I'll see if I can dig it up.

TSE has had three other newbie games, all of which were mafia. I have no town games of his to cross-reference and I'm not about to muddy the waters with non-newbie games and their altered roles and mechanics. My site meta is actually the same as his, just three other mafia games, for the record.

His posting style seems similar in all of these games for the most part. He comes under extreme attack in all of these games, occasionally getting mass scum-read instantly and Day 1 lynched. The whole "I have bad communication" doesn't ever come up in those games, and none of the other players seem to have trouble understanding him in those games. That's the one major difference: He seems easier to understand in those games. Also, he doesn't bother with percentages at all. This is completely new behavior to allocate precise percentages for a RVS wagon by page two and to lock it in based on "gamestate" feelings.

In the 1982 game it did come up the day he was lynched. He was asked to put forth a coherent argument regarding whether he should be lynched or someone else should, and he did. It was his best post of the game. The principle difference between this game and that game that I see is that he's focusing more on other players than on himself. (TSE I hope I'm using the right pronouns by now, apologies if not) He's still posting a lot, but he seems to be trying to solve, even if I think he's going about it in a faulty manner. I can't quite follow his logic, but the effort appears to be there. (That's what I mean by the difference between scummy play and bad play, volxen) I don't think we're seeing scum!TSE this game.

I agree with you to the extent that TSE has talked about other slots more in this game compared to Newbie 1982, and that he's been putting effort into this game. But why do you believe that these things are strongly town-indicative for TSE?

You really need to stop putting words into my mouth -- it's getting annoying. I don't believe I ever said I was reading TSE strongly town, just that I don't think we're seeing a scum!TSE in this game. As scum, he was able to have fun and mess around. You can see it in his interactions with Jackson Virgo in that 1982 game; you were there. I don't know if I'm right. I'm basing this off of one game I replaced in and read a few times. He doesn't seem to be enjoying this game nearly as much, if at all. He genuinely appears to be trying to solve. He didn't have to do that when he was scum. That's all.

I'll add to this that TSE's overall defensiveness is wearing thin, but the desperation isn't there. That, along with the effort shift right now is enough for me to believe that he didn't roll scum for the 4th time.

[Aloratom]

Please let me know why you're interested in this.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy

This is the only vote you placed Day 1, volxen. Out of 33 posts, 20 are either 1v1 with TSE or name check TSE: 109, 121, 176, 177, 280, 281, 305, 433, 435, 454, 462, 463, 464, 510, 461, 582, 651, 657, 659, and 660. Do you have a target today?

[Aloratom]

I believe that determining the veracity of your mentality through the assimilation of the behavior involving TSE, to judge him as a bad town, is the key to eliminate or confirm my hypothesis.

Thank you.

[Aloratom]

I believe that determining the veracity of your mentality through the assimilation of the behavior involving TSE, to judge him as a bad town, is the key to eliminate or confirm my hypothesis.

Thank you.

It's early to thank me. You are a great potential suspect.

I was thanking you for responding to my question.

[Aloratom]

@Natsu, I think you may want to look at my reason for voting 72offsuit:

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

You've pushed TSE and me. Where is your push on volxen? Seems your read on him and me were the same.

VOTE: 72offsuit

72offsuit -- I don't know if you're dodging me or if you missed this, but I've asked twice.

It wasn't a scum read. It was to get his attention for not acknowledging my question regarding volxen. It seems to me volxen's tunneling of TSE lends itself to the focused behavior GB was accusing you of in 610: "But if he's Town I think your slot should be held to scrutiny. Tunneling is a very common scum tactic because it's easy to disguise it as scum hunting." I don't have a strong read one way or another right now on 72offsuit. I think it's fair to ask him again why he is not engaging with volxen.

What do you think of GB yesterday saying that if TSE flips green then everyone on the TSE wagon should be in the lynch pool for today and then him voting outside of that lynch pool out of the box today, especially when he was so hard on you yesterday, in fact singling you out for scrutiny if TSE flipped green?

[Aloratom]

Also, Natsu, are you putting TSE and dsjstr's names in green because they've already flipped green?

[Aloratom]

It was obvious from the exaggeration in the number of posts. It exceeded the frequency of his

scum meta

.

In my experience, I don't think this holds. I think he posted as frequently in 1982 game as he did in this game. But without going back and looking at that one, I can't be sure.

[Aloratom]

yooooooooo i didnt die wtf? what is this kill on dsjstr? I was actually kinda scum reading them.

Thank you for not killing meeeeee!

Welcome to Mafia, where every word is scrutinized. The latter part of this post is odd.

[Aloratom]

Alora here is why I think that you are scum:

1) Your reasoning for townreading/defending TSE feels off. Unlike the other people who were townreading TSE, your read seems to be mostly based on comparing TSE’s gameplay in this game vs his gameplay in Newbie 1982. You pointed out factually correct things (that in Newbie 1982 he joked around a lot and pocketed JacksonVirgo, whereas in this game he focused a lot on other slots, etc.), but you never really made a compelling case as to why these differences in his gameplay had you convinced that he was town. Newbie 1982 is your only completed game with TSE; one game isn’t enough to form a meta read, especially since you don’t have a completed game with town!TSE to use as a baseline. Yes, TSE’s play here was different than Newbie 1982. One explanation for that is that he was town, but it also stands to reason that scum!TSE would try to play differently than he did in Newbie 1982, considering the outcome of that game. You never really considered that and just maintained a consistent townread on TSE throughout most of day one that was mostly based on how his play was different from Newbie 1982.

2) You spent the last few days of day one vanity voting 72, even though you never directly expressed a scumread on him. You seem to have voted him because you wanted him to answer you on why he didn’t push me, but when he didn’t answer you you didn’t bring it up again until the start of day two.

3) I directly asked you about your fake scumread “reaction test” on TSE, and you never got back to me. My understanding was as follows: you faked a scumread on TSE to see how he would respond. You believed that scum!TSE would be more likely to respond by placing his vote back on you, whereas town!TSE would be more likely to respond by keeping his vote on me. If that’s the case, then your conclusions don’t make sense. There are a number of reasons why scum!TSE might keep his vote on me in spite of you saying that you scumread him. For example, if he thought that he had a chance of pushing my mislynch through on day one, then it arguably would make sense for him to do that rather than switching gears to try and push you instead, as that might make it harder for him to push me on a later day. You simply used his reaction to your fake scumread on him to reinforce your townread on him, without explaining why his reaction was more likely to come from town!him rather than scum!him.

4) As I pointed out on day one, I think that your reasoning for scumleaning George in your first readslist post was shaky, especially the part where you emphasized his opening RVS post.

5) You didn’t really make any serious pushes on day one. Towards the end of the day you were fence sitting and said that you didn’t have any scumreads.

VOTE: Aloratom

1. My reasoning for townreading TSE feels off to you and that I never made a compelling case as to why the differences in his play had me convinced he was Town. Okay then. You neglected to mention that I had an initial Town lean on him as well:

TSE just spouts words in no particular order, and I don't think I'm disrespecting him by saying this. He knows that he has communication issues, but in general, if you look his posts over a couple times you can get what he's trying to say --usually. Sometimes I need clarification, and I'll ask him. I haven't been able to keep up with his "solves" this game, and his percentages are bogus in my opinion. I like the LARPing -- I don't think it was a distraction. I don't think any of his stuff is scummy right now. A more experienced player than I said something about it being important to distinguish bad play from scummy play. I think that may apply here. The only thing I don't really like is the word vomit tends to pollute the thread, but that's easy to get over. I like TSE in general, and I haven't seen anything scummy out of him yet here. He could have let djstsr answer my question. Of course he was calling out two low volume posters -- I just wanted to see what he had to say. I'm leaning Town.

He got a little bit too frenetic at one point, and I had some doubt, so I indicated a scum read on him in 572 to see if he would OMGUS vote me, which ties into your third point (I apologize for not responding to that yesterday -- my fault). I don't remember who he had his vote on at that time, but he didn't move it to me. It was actually kind of a silly thing for me to do, but I think the response that he gave was a sincere one:

I don’t mean to jump to conclusions. But I feel like if your scum your buddy told you to do this.
Don’t hammer me though until Clidd responds to my answers.

And he even followed it up with an additional answer:

Or else your scum claiming.

Which showed me that he had put some thought into it.

I think perhaps your tunnel vision was clouding your thinking.

2) With regard to scum reads yesterday, I wasn't strong on anyone. Yes, I left that vote on 72offsuit, and I asked him the same question twice yesterday. Miss a question once, I get it. The second time, I may attach a vote to it to get your attention. Now I've asked it three times. We'll see what happens or if something has changed.

3) Yes, the GeorgeBailey read was weak, and I admitted that up front:

GeorgeBailey seems to be more active than I recall. I really don't understand the scumread on Spy. If he wants to scumread me for fence sitting or lurking, I guess that's okay although it seems weak. What I find interesting is his first post, 41, where he runs through a couple of questions with volxen and then votes TSE, saying immediately after the vote "Can't believe you rolled scum again man." Which could apply to either TSE or volxen. It's quite a move if it was intentional. I don't know if scum would do this, but I think GB is swift enough that he just might. I'm giving him a slight scum lean here.

I don't see anything wrong with not having any strong scum reads while there's still time on the clock. If you want to read me as scum for that, have at it.

What do you think of GeorgeBaily voting outside of his stated lynch pool today?

Also, if you think I'm mafia, who do you think my partner is?

[Aloratom]

VOTE: TrueSoulEnergy

This is the only vote you placed Day 1, volxen. Out of 33 posts, 20 are either 1v1 with TSE or name check TSE: 109, 121, 176, 177, 280, 281, 305, 433, 435, 454, 462, 463, 464, 510, 461, 582, 651, 657, 659, and 660. Do you have a target today?

I don't think that there's anything that anyone could have said to you, volxen, to get you off of TSE on Day 1.

[Aloratom]

Don't you think dsjstr is too obvious? You've been scum reading me since 153:

You'd make more sense as the Night Kill if I were mafia.

Wouldn't I be too obvious then?

You're guilty of tunneling me same as what you accused Natsu of with regard to Jumble

Except you were tunneling a now confirmed town. Which is a common scum tactic. This is one of the reasons why Natsu's alignment was tied to the flip. Neither of you would be scumread if TSE flipped maf.

And Jumble/Clidd as obv!town makes no sense yet. Clidd's made up a lot of ground there, but not enough yet.

He's been townier than most since he replaced in.

Actually, you would be the more subtle choice because you didn't give your imprimatur next to my name on the final VC. Dsjstr did. You washed your hands so the final VC would look clean, resigning yourself to the "inevitable lynch of TSE" or something like that.

My treatment of TSE is independent of your tunnelling me -- they operate seperately -- and it wasn't accompanied by a popular scum read, or really a scum read at all, kind of a necessity when you're a maf trying to get someone mislynched. That dog don't hunt.

Agree on Clidd. He's made up quite a bit for Jumble.

What's your take on 72offsuit right now?

[Aloratom]

Yes I'm actually highly suspicious of GB now. You bring up a good point: I wasn't the only one tunneling TSE, it was Volxen and Clidd even though he unvoted. Honestly I'm getting very paranoid right now. The thought that my two townreads might be the scumteam has me terrified. GB looks highly suspicious due to what you brought up. And even Clidd is looking suspicious now with him saying "it was so obvious TSE was town due to his post count." Like, why didn't you say that specifically before he was lynched? Clidd just jumped off the bandwagon for personal reasons and let it happen. I don't think he's scum, but that action in and of itself is scummy. I think both him and I just needed to see that slot flip even if it was town just so we could know how to procede.

UNVOTE:

Interesting point about Clidd I hadn't caught. I need to think about that for a bit. Actually there are a couple of points there that require a re-read.

[Aloratom]

sup alo... im giving intent. lets hear some defense.

Just be careful. You lynch me today, you're in MYLO tomorrow. I

think

someone knows that I didn't make the kill last night, but I'm not sure about that and I don't want to compromise a TPR anyway. Also, that doesn't discount my partner making the kill, of course, if I were mafia. Who that partner would be, I don't know.

[Aloratom]

Sorry, I meant you're in LYLO tomorrow if you mislynch me today.

[Aloratom]

I got townie vibes from his p280.

He added new content to the case that TSE was scum which I agreed with. The fact he wasn't just parroting what I was saying gave me the impression he had townie motivation, rather than rehashing what I was saying.
I did not get the feel like he was scum buddying me.

I thought his post in 305 Re: Natsu's read on him felt genuine and also was getting more townie vibes from Natsu, so agreed with that read also.

Thank you.

[Aloratom]

The question comes in at the bottom and doesnt even address me. No @72. It doesnt even follow on from the last point.
It has my name on 1 line that says almost nothing.

Thus the repeat with the vote attached -- to get your attention.

You did not vote for TSE, read him as town, but I felt you didn't genuinely try to create a case to lynch someone else.
Like you didn;t really care if he was lynched, but did not want to appear on his wagon.
You chose to vote for me instead, when I was never going to be the lynch yesterday.

VOTE: Alo

L-1

With no strong scum reads, I wasn't going to create a case to lynch someone else out of thin air. That would be scummy. I couldn't stop the wagon on TSE. Any strong defense of him would be white knighting, which would get me deeper in dutch than I already was and trading one mislynch for another is by my thinking not a good strategy. Finally, my vote on you was, as I've stated several times, not a lynch vote but an attention getter.

If I flip green today and you're in LYLO tomorrow, who is in your lynch pool? Just IMASPY? Are there any contingencies there? It seems everyone needs to be thinking in terms of how are we going to win this game rather than who are we going to lynch right now.

[Aloratom]

Scumread

Alo - Primarily for:

- Manipulating the quote to cast shade on me, then stating it was ''to pressure me to repond to his question
- His massive lurk and shallow reads list post 267.
- Still disagree with Alo's read on IMA, and the lack of reasoning on his read on IMA.
- Attempted pocketing regarding me being a good replacement, then a swift change of mind when I scumread him.
- Trying to play down his fence-sitting and even write it off as not a scumtell at all.

Also, There was no attempt to pocket you. As I explained earlier:

72offsuit -- good replacement as in active replacement. Zero comments on your reads list because it was posted one hour before I posted, and I didn't want to go through it but I wanted to acknowledge it.

But as I said to Spy, that's Mafia -- every word's in play.

[Aloratom]

Im kinda lost. Ill be super surprised if natsu is mafia.

I was entirely sold on TSE being maf. I didnt fully buy into his "bad at communication" thing.

Im actually lost tho..

sup alo... im giving intent. lets hear some defense.

You've gone from kinda lost to giving intent within a few hours. What's changed?

No questions for it at all?!? Just gonna let me scum read Alo without explaining myself!?!

Spoiler:

I don't think anyone followed up on this. I'm interested.

Spy -- Can you take a crack on this one now, and has anything changed since the TSE flip?

I think it would be fair to request you address this.

[Aloratom]

If I flip green today and you're in LYLO tomorrow, who is in your lynch pool? Just IMASPY? Are there any contingencies there? It seems everyone needs to be thinking in terms of how are we going to win this game rather than who are we going to lynch right now.

And let me be clear, how we're going to win this game includes who to lynch right now, but it goes beyond that. This is something we all need to be thinking about.

[Aloratom]

Yes I'm actually highly suspicious of GB now. You bring up a good point: I wasn't the only one tunneling TSE, it was Volxen and Clidd even though he unvoted. Honestly I'm getting very paranoid right now. The thought that my two townreads might be the scumteam has me terrified. GB looks highly suspicious due to what you brought up. And even Clidd is looking suspicious now with him saying "it was so obvious TSE was town due to his post count." Like, why didn't you say that specifically before he was lynched? Clidd just jumped off the bandwagon for personal reasons and let it happen. I don't think he's scum, but that action in and of itself is scummy. I think both him and I just needed to see that slot flip even if it was town just so we could know how to procede.

UNVOTE:

Clidd brought up the issue with TSE's post count earlier in Day 1. Look at the spoiler for details:

Spoiler:

As it stands, I think TSE is the best lynch for today. If it looks like scum, walks like scum, talks like scum, its probably scum.

I’m not scum.
Yes I know allot of my posts look like shit.
I said they are at my first post.
I told those who never played with me 2 things.
1) I Post

ALLOT

2) I have shit posts

By shit I mean I make posts and they usually be read as scummy AF.
72 would you like a link to a Town game of mine and a scum game of mine for meta reference?

His scum meta and town meta are very similar in the quality of posts, especially in the numerical factor. However, the anomaly of

173

posts, today, is something outside the

scum!TSE

behavior curve. Even so, this does not justify acting sporadically as you please.

Well it didnt give me that impression. I was just asking.

I do see this a good townie response. I am kinda sus of dsjstr.

Why is it you have him as your top town read?

He’s the only person to had an entrance that felt Townie.
I think he said some stuff I could see town saying, thus I made him my top Town read because of it.

This is a very extreme instance. A lot is assumed with little information to justify a premature read.

When I try and solve this hard.
I’m doing well and I’m making progress with you all.
But I’m still the scummy player.
:/.
Honestly WTF do I got to do to not be a “Let’s get rid of him. He sucks”
When I think it’s my game and I’m being really Townie.
I still end up getting miss lynched.
SMH. This game no different.

Whatever, fine lynch me if it helps you.

But we all practically share a majority of the Reads here if you remove me from the equation.

Volxen and Alo are actual good day 1 lynch option.

I’m the one player that’s on everyone’s scum Reads in almost all games I play where people just put me there regardless of alignment and I’m just that odd one out that is just THERE in scum Reads because I’m shit.
honestly, I suppose when I’m in a game where that doesn’t happen is in a game where I’ve actually accomplished full communication.
Like your all only reading me for being shit and being scummy wording.
THAT’S IT.
And that’s all I am.

Now This isn’t any kind of play BS.
I’m just kinda annoyed people’s opinion haven’t changed on me in the past year.
Despite a hugh content improvement.

Progressive AtE.

If anyone should lynch TSE it should be me because of how hard they were pocketing me.

BUT I would like to hear someone say that I am wrong in the fact that TSE was acting differently when he was getting pressured as mafia.

I have not been proven that he has played the same as when he was mafia and I am questioning the legitimacy of the wagon.

I think only going off of previous games to make reads for the current game is not a good strategy. I dont think anyone needs to read any previous games on anyone to be able to find out who is mafia and who isnt. Dont cling so hard to how they acted in a previous game and pay attention to how they are playing/answering questions in this game.

Regardless allot of players view my play style as scummy.
Yet if everyone sheeped me every game We’d always win.
I’m tellin yeah. (Well only on games like this one where I’m Town)

Ego AtE.

Why is 173 posts out of my scum range?

You legit said that me posting allot is scummy

.

This number goes beyond the margins of your scum meta. There is something motivating you to post more, and I want to find out if this is associated with the

red

or

green

faction.

[/quote]

[Aloratom]

Natsu -- And if you look at Clidd's trajectory with regard to his read on TSE, you'll see him go from an initial agreement with the wagon when he repped in 524, to a belief that TSE is Town in 592 after further evaluation with a belief that a TSE lynch would likely be a net positive because of his posts polluting the thread, to a resignation that the lynch is inevitable in 674 and 675.

Clidd also expresses that he has no scum reads to lynch at end of Day 1 in 674, which, as you are aware, is the position I was in at that time.

[Aloratom]

sup alo... im giving intent. lets hear some defense.

I did want to mention something with this. I'm not your puppet. Please don't issue me a command. That was actually my initial reaction to your post, except the words were more choice. I thought I'd come back around to it after a few deep breaths. This may be antagonistic and competitive, but it is a game.

[Aloratom]

Go ahead. I appreciate your asking. I'm out right now but will address when I return.

[Aloratom]

I generally, however, am not a fan of questionnaires in this game. But each has their preference as to how they approach it.

[Aloratom]

Let's start with something simple:

you

. Are you comfortable in this game ?

Yes, after a sluggish start I'm fine.

[Aloratom]

Let's start with something simple:

you

. Are you comfortable in this game ?

Yes, after a sluggish start I'm fine.

How do you think you would have acted as

scum

in this game ? particularly, I would probably have a hard

SR

on TSE day 1.

I think that you're asking who would my fake scum reads be if I were mafia and then who would I lynch. If that's the case, from a strategy standpoint, assuming my partner had not played with TSE before, at the beginning of the game, I would likely suggest that they read TSE as scum because I think TSE is probably easy to read as scum whether he really is or not and the read would be more natural. I, on the other hand, would likely read someone else, likely one of the slower slots, Jumble or 72offsuit in the earlier stages perhaps, then maybe switch to volxen for their tunneling of TSE -- while I have played with volxen, I think their tunneling is a pretty good case. I think TSE is lynch-able without the necessity of both mafia on his wagon, so I'd probably stay off of it completely unless it came close to EOD or some other contingency arose.

Actually, even if my partner had played with TSE before, I would suggest to them that they read TSE scum because I would prefer the challenge of finding someone else to read, so I don't think that would change.

As an aside, I'd be curious to know whether TSE has made it past Day 1 in a newbie game.

Spoiler:

The expected first sentence of this response is likely A, but I'm not going to answer A even though A is true at least as far as this part of the forum goes.

[Aloratom]

1. My reasoning for townreading TSE feels off to you and that I never made a compelling case as to why the differences in his play had me convinced he was Town. Okay then. You neglected to mention that I had an initial Town lean on him as well:

Nevertheless, your initial townlean on him turned into a confident townread (yes, when you say “I don’t think that this is TSE’s scumgame” I would consider that a confident townread), and the basis of that confident townread mostly revolved around how his play in this game was different than Newbie 1982.

He got a little bit too frenetic at one point, and I had some doubt, so I indicated a scum read on him in 572 to see if he would OMGUS vote me, which ties into your third point (I apologize for not responding to that yesterday -- my fault). I don't remember who he had his vote on at that time, but he didn't move it to me. It was actually kind of a silly thing for me to do, but I think the response that he gave was a sincere one:

He had his vote on me at the time. The sequence of events was that he was talking about you and Spy being scum together, and he moved his vote between the two of you. Immediately after I explained why I thought that you and TSE could be scum together, he put his vote back on me. At that point he left his vote on me for the rest of the day, except for when he briefly voted for Natsu.

Why did you consider his response “sincere”? All he did there was continue to maintain that you could be scum when he said that he thought that your scumbuddy told you to post that. That was his stance towards you for most of day one, except at that point he apparently thought that you and I were scum together, whereas previously he thought that you were scum with Spy. He was essentially just reiterating his scumread on your slot, so I’m not seeing why it would strengthen your townread on him.

How would you have expected scum!TSE to respond to your fake scumread on him?

3) Yes, the GeorgeBailey read was weak, and I admitted that up front:

I know that you said that it was a weak scumlean, but I still think that the reasoning behind the weak scumlean was sketchy.

I don't see anything wrong with not having any strong scum reads while there's still time on the clock. If you want to read me as scum for that, have at it.

You don’t see why people might find that scummy? At the time that George hammered TSE there were three days left on the clock. Yes, I would think that by a week into day one you would have someone that you would want to seriously push. The most definitive stance that you took on day one was your townread of TSE. Scum tend to have an easier time explaining a townread on someone that is town compared to a scumread on someone that is town, because they're just explaining something that they know to be true, as opposed to having to manufacture fake reasons as to why someone that they know is town is actually scum.

Simply put, you played day one very safely. It’s very easy to sit on the sidelines and call TSE town when a lot of people were calling for his lynch.

What do you think of GeorgeBaily voting outside of his stated lynch pool today?

I don’t see why he would have that lynch pool in this first place, as it doesn’t make sense to strictly lynch among the people who voted for TSE, especially if there is someone you scumread who was off-wagon.

I don’t think the fact that George voted for you is suspicious in and of itself, as I am scumreading you myself. But he should explain why he made that comment about his lynch pool being the TSE voters, considering that you are one of his scumreads and you weren’t on TSE’s wagon (and you made it clear before day one ended that you refused to join his wagon).

Also, if you think I'm mafia, who do you think my partner is?

I could see you being scum with either Natsu or George as I am suspicious of their reasoning for joining the TSE wagon. George because he hammered TSE despite townleaning him with three days left before the deadline. Yes, there’s the argument that TSE might have been the lynch anyway, but since George was townleaning TSE he could have used the remaining few days to try and form a counter wagon on one of his scumreads (e.g., you).

And Natsu because he justified his vote for TSE as “33% policy lynch, 33% information generating, and 33% because your scummy” (634). That breakdown seems… odd, and he went out of his way to make it known that he wanted to lynch TSE at least partly for policy reasons as opposed to it being entirely about him scumreading TSE. I think there’s this school of thought that someone suggesting a policy lynch is at least somewhat more likely to be town than scum, because scum don’t want to admit that they are OK with lynching someone that they think could flip town. So if Natsu is scum he could have done that to try and get townread. Everyone else on the TSE wagon (me, 72, and Spy) expressed a hard scumread on TSE throughout most of day one.

1. My first point was to emphasize that if you're going to throw it against the wall, make sure that you throw all of it.

2. With regard to TSE, I thought that his response to me felt as sincere to the extent that sincerity can be transmitted online. It was just a feeling at the moment. Maybe it was genuine, maybe it wasn't. The follow-up led me to think that he had put a bit of thought into it. I had no objective basis to lead me to that conclusion other than he did not switch his vote to me. That is what I expected to happen.

3. Of course there are some players who will find others with no strong scum reads with three days left scummy. That's the nature of the game. I prefer to play at my own pace though. I've rushed into reads and lynches in previous games enough times now to know that it's smarter for me to play at a more measured pace. I've regretted some of those early decisions. I'm in the process of finding balance. Regardless, there are always going to be players who end Day 1 without strong scum reads, and they will not always be the same players.

[Aloratom]

Last question:

imagining a scenario where Natsu is

scum

, who do you think would be his partner, considering the current situation of the game ?

I don't know if I'm that analytical or experienced enough to answer that. It might take me awhile to get back to you. I'll probably be on the forum tonight, but I don't think I'll get to this until after I've had a night's sleep, so please don't think I'm ignoring this question. And for what it's worth, I complement the notes in your previous set. Before I put this to the side, may I ask is Natsu a random hypothetical scum!partner or is he selected for a particular purpose (I don't need to know the purpose if so)?

[Aloratom]

Last question:

imagining a scenario where Natsu is

scum

, who do you think would be his partner, considering the current situation of the game ?

I don't know if I'm that analytical or experienced enough to answer that. It might take me awhile to get back to you. I'll probably be on the forum tonight, but I don't think I'll get to this until after I've had a night's sleep, so please don't think I'm ignoring this question. And for what it's worth, I complement the notes in your previous set. Before I put this to the side, may I ask is Natsu a random hypothetical scum!partner or is he selected for a particular purpose (I don't need to know the purpose if so)?

It's just a hypothetical scenario, not necessarily linked or related to reality. So, in this context, he is a random choice.

Don't worry, answer in your time.

Spoiler:

Fair enough. I'll get to it as soon as I am able.

[Aloratom]

1. My reasoning for townreading TSE feels off to you and that I never made a compelling case as to why the differences in his play had me convinced he was Town. Okay then. You neglected to mention that I had an initial Town lean on him as well:

Nevertheless, your initial townlean on him turned into a confident townread (yes, when you say “I don’t think that this is TSE’s scumgame” I would consider that a confident townread), and the basis of that confident townread mostly revolved around how his play in this game was different than Newbie 1982.

He got a little bit too frenetic at one point, and I had some doubt, so I indicated a scum read on him in 572 to see if he would OMGUS vote me, which ties into your third point (I apologize for not responding to that yesterday -- my fault). I don't remember who he had his vote on at that time, but he didn't move it to me. It was actually kind of a silly thing for me to do, but I think the response that he gave was a sincere one:

He had his vote on me at the time. The sequence of events was that he was talking about you and Spy being scum together, and he moved his vote between the two of you. Immediately after I explained why I thought that you and TSE could be scum together, he put his vote back on me. At that point he left his vote on me for the rest of the day, except for when he briefly voted for Natsu.

Why did you consider his response “sincere”? All he did there was continue to maintain that you could be scum when he said that he thought that your scumbuddy told you to post that. That was his stance towards you for most of day one, except at that point he apparently thought that you and I were scum together, whereas previously he thought that you were scum with Spy. He was essentially just reiterating his scumread on your slot, so I’m not seeing why it would strengthen your townread on him.

How would you have expected scum!TSE to respond to your fake scumread on him?

3) Yes, the GeorgeBailey read was weak, and I admitted that up front:

I know that you said that it was a weak scumlean, but I still think that the reasoning behind the weak scumlean was sketchy.

I don't see anything wrong with not having any strong scum reads while there's still time on the clock. If you want to read me as scum for that, have at it.

You don’t see why people might find that scummy? At the time that George hammered TSE there were three days left on the clock. Yes, I would think that by a week into day one you would have someone that you would want to seriously push. The most definitive stance that you took on day one was your townread of TSE. Scum tend to have an easier time explaining a townread on someone that is town compared to a scumread on someone that is town, because they're just explaining something that they know to be true, as opposed to having to manufacture fake reasons as to why someone that they know is town is actually scum.

Simply put, you played day one very safely. It’s very easy to sit on the sidelines and call TSE town when a lot of people were calling for his lynch.

What do you think of GeorgeBaily voting outside of his stated lynch pool today?

I don’t see why he would have that lynch pool in this first place, as it doesn’t make sense to strictly lynch among the people who voted for TSE, especially if there is someone you scumread who was off-wagon.

I don’t think the fact that George voted for you is suspicious in and of itself, as I am scumreading you myself. But he should explain why he made that comment about his lynch pool being the TSE voters, considering that you are one of his scumreads and you weren’t on TSE’s wagon (and you made it clear before day one ended that you refused to join his wagon).

Also, if you think I'm mafia, who do you think my partner is?

I could see you being scum with either Natsu or George as I am suspicious of their reasoning for joining the TSE wagon. George because he hammered TSE despite townleaning him with three days left before the deadline. Yes, there’s the argument that TSE might have been the lynch anyway, but since George was townleaning TSE he could have used the remaining few days to try and form a counter wagon on one of his scumreads (e.g., you).

And Natsu because he justified his vote for TSE as “33% policy lynch, 33% information generating, and 33% because your scummy” (634). That breakdown seems… odd, and he went out of his way to make it known that he wanted to lynch TSE at least partly for policy reasons as opposed to it being entirely about him scumreading TSE. I think there’s this school of thought that someone suggesting a policy lynch is at least somewhat more likely to be town than scum, because scum don’t want to admit that they are OK with lynching someone that they think could flip town. So if Natsu is scum he could have done that to try and get townread. Everyone else on the TSE wagon (me, 72, and Spy) expressed a hard scumread on TSE throughout most of day one.

1. My first point was to emphasize that if you're going to throw it against the wall, make sure that you throw all of it.

2. With regard to TSE, I thought that his response to me felt as sincere to the extent that sincerity can be transmitted online. It was just a feeling at the moment. Maybe it was genuine, maybe it wasn't. The follow-up led me to think that he had put a bit of thought into it. I had no objective basis to lead me to that conclusion other than he did not switch his vote to me. That is what I expected to happen.

3. Of course there are some players who will find others with no strong scum reads with three days left scummy. That's the nature of the game. I prefer to play at my own pace though. I've rushed into reads and lynches in previous games enough times now to know that it's smarter for me to play at a more measured pace. I've regretted some of those early decisions. I'm in the process of finding balance. Regardless, there are always going to be players who end Day 1 without strong scum reads, and they will not always be the same players.

I think I addressed everything, volxen. If not, please let me know.

[Aloratom]

Last question:

imagining a scenario where Natsu is

scum

, who do you think would be his partner, considering the current situation of the game ?

* Not so much Jumble/clidd because of 103 -- doesn't care what people think about the relationship, but could be distancing. But his arrogant stance on Jumble at the beginning of the game, while off-putting, seemed too obvious to be maf/maf. He continued the Town read on clidd when he repped in, but then expressed doubt on clidd during the fake hammer (this is indicative of a town!Natsu), and is currently doubting his previous reads on the slot. Neither Jumble nor Clidd makes a substantive note on Natsu.
* volxen 276 -- hard null read, but I don't think scum!Natsu and scum!volxen would be that close in voting on the TSE wagon. 279 -- asks everyone what about volxen is scummy. 321 somehow changes read to scummy. 586 back to Town. 709 back to scum!volxen. 748 scum!volxen. 763 I'm not sure I understand.
* Says he kind of scum read IMASPY in 586, but doesn't think IMASPY would Night Kill djstsr in 709. IMASPY Town reads Natsu in 117, 151, 568, 703.
* GeorgeBailey -- light scum read on 313 perhaps. 586. 607. 709. 714. 748. All indicate scum!GB.
* 72offsuit -- strong Town read 586. Only substantive mention. 72offsuit null reads Natsu in 234 entry post. Affirms null read 296. 728 this is now a Town read.
* Aloratom -- scum read 226. 313. 321. 586. 669 looked like a test of Aloratom. 709. 714 opens dialogue with Aloratom, appears to consider points being made, 748 still scum read.
*Missed the fake hammer -- if sincere, lessens his scum equity overall.
*Requesting clidd or Aloratom hammer TSE is scummy even though he wanted everyone to treat it as a second vote from him. What matters is what is on the final Vote Card -- that's what people are going use.

I don't think in terms of partners. I'm not that experienced. But if I were a third party looking at this game at this point with the perfect knowledge that Natsu were mafia, I would likely consider 72offsuit, IMASPY or clidd most strongly if nothing else because there was no threatening behavior between Natsu v 72, Natsu v IMASPY, Natsu v Jumble/clidd or vice versa. But that is without looking at their ISOs as a whole, only with relation to Natsu (I don't want to spend more time on this right now although it's been a good exercise, and I believe I've done work everyone can benefit from). One thing I don't like about Natsu being partners with 72offsuit or IMASPY is that they were on TSE fairly heavily Day 1 along with Natsu. It may have been a different analysis it if had been someone else, but with TSE I think it's difficult because of his post pollution and that may skew the standard one on/one off rule of thumb. Clidd may be more likely because he started on the TSE wagon but moved off of it after evaluating it further, but I don't like clidd as a partner, however, because I think one can see clidd's thought process with regard to TSE -- with scum I don't think that would be as visible. I prefer to think of Natsu being partners with someone else off of the wagon or someone flirting with the wagon, like GB or Aloratom. Of these two, I think GB is perhaps more likely because of Natsu's willingness for an Aloratom lynch, but Natsu has been consistent in reading GB scum lately, and has lumped him in with volxen and Aloratom as the most suspect so I don't know that the answer lies there. Volxen is another that is suspect as a Natsu partner, but he was on TSE heavily along with Natsu Day 1, and Natsu has recently grouped him with GB and Aloratom at the bottom, so there likely is not a partner relationship between those two.

In sum, I think the most likely partner in this hypothetical is 72offsuit or IMASPY, depending on which one is read more suspicious overall, but again, all three were on TSE Day 1.

Taking this out of the hypothetical, I don't know that 72offsuit, IMASPY or Natsu are mafia. I'm not reading them as such at this point.

[Aloratom]

volxen, clidd, alo, and GB... lets lynch all these guys and we will win lol

No questions for it at all?!? Just gonna let me scum read Alo without explaining myself!?!

Spoiler:

I don't think anyone followed up on this. I'm interested.

Spy -- Can you take a crack on this one now, and has anything changed since the TSE flip?

Spy -- I'm guessing that you put some work into this. Can you share what you found?

[Aloratom]

Spy -- I'm guessing that you put some work into this. Can you share what you found?

I havent put much work into this game day. I started a new job last week so i have been distracted. Yes i do only town read Natsu and 72offsuit. I am kinda scum reading GB alittle now that he thinks me and natsu are partners. Because i know im town and i am kinda sure that natsu is town.

I hope congratulations are in order. Seems like a lot of people I've run into lately have gotten new jobs. I've been thinking about it myself.

Anyway, when you get to it is fine. I think I misunderstood what you had done.

[Aloratom]

What do you think of GB yesterday saying that if TSE flips green then everyone on the TSE wagon should be in the lynch pool for today and then him voting outside of that lynch pool out of the box today, especially when he was so hard on you yesterday, in fact singling you out for scrutiny if TSE flipped green?

The whole point of this is looking for opportunism. How was scum using TSE as an opportunity to lynch town? The wagon was stagnant and there were many people not willing to budge. I didn't suspect Volxen because he started the wagon. The problem came at the pace it was growing. Scum usually hops on at safe times, and I think Natsu found an opportunity to vote out a Vanilla Town. Doubled-down and tunneled TSE.

Also, I initially voted you start of D1 because of your push on the wagon as a whole. Your answer on the Natsu partnership post was very in-depth, and I don't think you are the most likely to flip scum anymore.

VOTE: Natsu

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by my push on the wagon as a whole, and I got the impression that you voted me because you thought I had djstsr Night Killed because he scum read me last. At least that's the justification you used in the post where you voted.

What are your current thoughts on 72offsuit? I'm having difficulty drawing a bead on him.

[Aloratom]

VOTE: unvote

Yeah, that was kind of odd. You voted for volxen last night then again this afternoon, then you unvoted. It's like you realized you had already voted him and meant to cancel one of the votes.

[Aloratom]

Right now, I feel more comfortable with

Aloratom's

slot and I believe he is innocent. In this context, I will leave one of the two speculative lines on file and work with the remaining one.

Votecount 1.15

TrueSoulEnergy (5) -

volxen, 72offsuit, IMASPY, Natsu, GeorgeBailey

Aloratom (1) -

dsjstr

72offsuit (1) -

Aloratom

volxen (1) -

TrueSoulEnergy

Not Voting (1) -

clidd

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

A lynch has been achieved.

That said, I believe that both

scums

are in the main wagon from the previous day. I intend to talk individually with each of these members, until I can draw a table of

TRs

and

SRs

.

Disagree. Alo's responses are generic and NAI. I don;t get a town vibe off them at all.
"My scum plan is one on the biggest wagon, 1 off the wagon."
"I was sluggish when I lurked, but now I'm ok"
is what I'm reading.

I don't agree with you about them being generic, but I agree with you about them being NAI. I don't know that I buy the theory that scum put in less work than Town. People will interpret them differently though.

[Aloratom]

''

I don't understand why you do not see the scenario where Alo is scum and Clidd is town?

''

-817

''

If Alo is town, then I would say that Clidd is most likely town, I just don't see Alo as town at all

''

-819

Explain this contradiction.

I am interested in this as well.

[Aloratom]

Spy -- Your Day 2 behavior has been odd. I wouldn't expect someone to make a point of saying, "Thank you for not killing me." It sounds like an almost too-transparent attempt at creating WIFOM. Those votes on volxen were strange as well. And now, after clidd mentions starting a wagon on 72offsuit, you place a vote on him without explanation. It's strange.

[Aloratom]

I can't look it up right now, but someone pointed out that Spy had himself at L-1 for something like 24 minutes on Day 1. I think it was 72offsuit. I still don't know what to make of that, both Spy's gambit and 72offsuit's take. And I don't understand Spy's 771. I glossed over that one. It can be looked at a couple different ways I think. Is it pressure?

[Aloratom]

@Aloratom

, why you have no reaction to my post 838 ?

The hypo to volxen? The only reaction I have is that if you're trying to pocket me, it's not working. But I don't get the sense that that's part of the purpose of the post.

[Aloratom]

@Aloratom

, why you have no reaction to my post 838 ?

The hypo to volxen? The only reaction I have is that if you're trying to pocket me, it's not working. But I don't get the sense that that's part of the purpose of the post.

1.

Why would I try to do this if I, theoretically, am

PR

and, theoretically, have you as mechanically clear ?

2.

Why didn't you consider the scenario in which I am

PR

with you as innocent ?

3.

Why are you being extremely neutral and cautious in your responses ?

Spoiler:

It was considered in light of it being a hypothetical. Not discussing it further seemed more advantageous to Town at this point because talking in those terms seems an easy way to lose a valuable Town member at night.

[Aloratom]

Notice how GB was so quick to unvote. He did not want to be lynched day 2.

I don't follow. Are you talking about when GB unvoted me today? I think he explained that pretty well. I question the initial vote, but not the unvote.

[Aloratom]

We've got about 24 hours left. I wasn't here at the beginning of the day and we'll see how the next few hours shape up, but I'm getting a bad read from Spy's recent behavior. I'm not sure he knows what he's supposed to do. It's too random. There's no focus.

VOTE: IMASPY

[Aloratom]

If it helps, I won't consider lynching volxen, Natsu or clidd today. GB I would need to be convinced on. I would vote Spy or 72offsuit.

[Aloratom]

I should have read the previews. I never read the previews. But yes, pretty much what clidd said.

[Aloratom]

Spy -- you have GeorgeBailey as null in 890 yet you vote him in 891.

In 890: "Clidd seems scummy to me... Overall null."

It's very confusing.

[Aloratom]

GeorgeBailey and volxen when you are able, please weigh in.

[Aloratom]

I'm going to sheep Cliff's vote to see if we can get some momentum. Natsu may be right to save Spy to deal with tomorrow.

VOTE: 72offsuit

[Aloratom]

Honestly, I was even trying to see a path where you were town, but it's almost impossible. You deserve to be lynched.

VOTE: 72offsuit

I was 50%, but now im 90% sure that he is scum.

No, I'm town.
If I was scum, what reasoning would I have for pushing Alo?
Your case is crap. You say I'm scum because you say I contradicted myself which I didn;t and due to replacements out.

I think that if you review Day 2 there was a lot more listening than hearing occurring. The opposite was true Day 1.

[Aloratom]

Clidd, I suggest that you re-read post 767 and think about it in light of your exchanges with TSE on Day 1.

[Aloratom]

Clidd, I suggest that you re-read post 767 and think about it in light of your exchanges with TSE on Day 1.

Hum, im not reading that.

Very well. I'm afraid this puts the game in jeopardy.

VOTE: IMASPY

[Aloratom]

I should say that puts the game in jeopardy.

[Aloratom]

Clidd, I suggest that you re-read post 767 and think about it in light of your exchanges with TSE on Day 1.

Before I flip, everyone may want to read this post. Take a look at post 767. Take a look at the definition of the word complement. Take a look at Clidd's soft claim of Tracker in his questions to TSE "notes."

Good luck Town.

[Aloratom]

Ok, calm down.

Continuing>

I'm going to ask you a few questions:

1. From the moment you entered the game, what was the first thing that crossed your mind ?
2. What do you intend to do if your deductions are incorrect ? are you willing to be blamed for losing the game ?
3. How do you see the fact that the majority are not enjoying your playstyle ? are they wrong ?
4. If you were me, questioning a potentially suspicious player, how would you establish his guilt or innocence, so that you needed to be absolutely sure ?
5. Let's assume that we all know your meta scum which, as you mentioned, is naturally scummy and similar to your posts as town. How could we distinguish which side we are dealing with ? how would we know if this is

scum!TSE

or

town!TSE

?
6. As scum, hypothetically, which player would you kill on night 1? who would you avoid killing ?
7. What is your opinion about the lynch policy of inactive players ?
8. If you could automatically lynch someone today, who would it be ?
9. Would you lie as town if it benefited the alignment ?

10. Take a look at the notes below:

A. T
R
A
C
K

What would complement the notes in question 10?

[Aloratom]

My advice is Spy for tomorrow.

[Aloratom]

I sent it to djstsr Night 1. He was my strongest Town Read.

[Aloratom]

Sigh. You should have claimed intent.

[Aloratom]

What would complement a Tracker?

[Aloratom]

I was working earlier and couldn't keep up with the wagon.

[Aloratom]

Did I correctly random guess that you were PR too ?

I thought you picked up my crumb. Thus my speaking in hushed tones regarding your hypothetical to volxen. I didn't want to out either of us.

[Aloratom]

Another hour or so, and I would have been able to, but que será.

[Aloratom]

i mean he claimed tracker in day 1 with TSE guessing game,

This does kinda urk me. It was blatantly obvious that he was saying tracker, so why wasnt he the NK? I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Umm, where? I must have missed that.

This almost seems disingenuous. It was just pointed out.

[Aloratom]

I struggled with that bit myself. Why didn't the obvious Tracker claim buy the Night Kill?

[Aloratom]

Creating WIFOM is in the job description.

[Aloratom]

My advice is Spy for tomorrow.

Is your current solve still Spy/72, or has your read on 72 changed?

Spy's erratic play Day 2 has me concerned. 72's weakly argued reads on me have me concerned. clidd's recent posts regarding the Night Kill have me concerned.

I don't know how much I can think this out in twilight.

[Aloratom]

After seeing GB's reaction to my anticipated flip, I'm much better with him.

[Aloratom]

i mean he claimed tracker in day 1 with TSE guessing game,

This does kinda urk me. It was blatantly obvious that he was saying tracker, so why wasnt he the NK? I guess we'll find out tomorrow.

Umm, where? I must have missed that.

This almost seems disingenuous. It was just pointed out.

Yeah I got to that part after I already posted before catching up. If Clidd doesn't die tonight then I think we should lynch him.

This is a reasonable post.

[Aloratom]

I guess there's still the possibility of a JK.

[Aloratom]

And to be fair, the obv track out would have been sick if there was a doc on clidd every night.

There's no possibility of a doc. We're in B2 or B3.

[Aloratom]

I'm sorry. B1 or B2.

[Aloratom]

My advice is Spy for tomorrow.

Is your current solve still Spy/72, or has your read on 72 changed?

Spy's erratic play Day 2 has me concerned. 72's weakly argued reads on me have me concerned. clidd's recent posts regarding the Night Kill have me concerned.

I don't know how much I can think this out in twilight.

I'll add to this that the 1-hour period of time that I was at L-1 -- the speed of the hammer -- the lack of claiming intent.

[Aloratom]

My advice is Spy for tomorrow.

Is your current solve still Spy/72, or has your read on 72 changed?

Spy's erratic play Day 2 has me concerned. 72's weakly argued reads on me have me concerned. clidd's recent posts regarding the Night Kill have me concerned.

I don't know how much I can think this out in twilight.

After seeing GB's reaction to my anticipated flip, I'm much better with him.

Before you got hammered and revealed that you were TFN, I was thinking that if you were scum George would have made sense as your partner based on the way that day two played out. Do you believe that both scum are likely among {Spy, 72, Clidd}?

Yes. I don't know the time I have, but look at the arguments that 72offsuit most recently had on me. They're built in sand. And I think the more Clidd talks here in twilight, the more he is burying himself. The Clidd v 72 exchange at the end in retrospect looks like SvS theatre.

[Aloratom]

I hadn't made the decision on who to send it to tonight.

[Aloratom]

Gotcha.

[Aloratom]

The PR should hold tight until tomorrow, yes.

[Aloratom]

That's a leading question.

Since I'm dying anyway, it would be clidd.

[Aloratom]

And I expect that if he is Town that he will die tonight.

[Aloratom]

But I don't think that he is Town any longer.

[Aloratom]

Spy -- I want to apologize publicly to you. Your post earlier Day 2 to me was not out of line at all. I completely overreacted. I am not going to make any excuse whatsoever.

[Aloratom]

Good job folks. It was a fun game.

[Aloratom]

Thanks, Micc. You are a smooth operator.

[Aloratom]

Sorry guys, my fault.

John Wooden once told Lew Alcindor that if you're going to take the responsibility for one loss, then you're implying that you're taking credit for every win.

[Aloratom]

Reading how nervous you got for the organized hammer is heartwarming lmao.

Yes, that was funny.