Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[ItalianoVD]

Looks like we're playing together again pii. What's up bud.

Oh yeah

VOTE: Micc

As a golden gopher fan, I can't believe he's broadcasting that thing in his avatar.

[ItalianoVD]

So who's the scum? Just let us know now, so we can be done with this eh?

[ItalianoVD]

Protip: You can only vote for players in the game, and not the moderator.

Yeah I know. It wasn’t an actual vote.

[ItalianoVD]

So DoctorPepper and UNOwen voting for me on day one without explanation. Seems pretty convenient. You two just shot up my scum read list.

[ItalianoVD]

Also it was clear from my first post that I was joking. Trying to make it something it’s not seems like opportunistic and scum seem to take any opportunities to mislynch.

[ItalianoVD]

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

Well I’ve played the wolf game variation on a boxing forum I’ve been a member of since probably 2006, but this would be my second actual mafiascum.net game.

I prefer being town/villager because I like trying to

find

the puzzle piece instead of having it.

Note completely sure of the policy per se, but I’m always of the opinion that if you seem disinterested and don’t contribute you shouldn’t have signed up to play and hence I have no problem lynching.

[ItalianoVD]

I have a question for my voters: DoctorPepper and UNOwen

Even though I am a noob to this version of the game and on this forum, it’s pretty normal and common in scumming/wolfing 101 to not bring any undue and unnecessary attention to yourself. It pretty much puts a target on your back. I don’t know the meta of this site yet, but that seems like something that will never change.

So my question is if I was scum what would be the benefit to me and/or my partner (whether they were a noob or experienced) to put such a blatant target on my back and possibly their back for attempting to “protect” me. If there is a benefit I don’t know about, that’s why I’m asking.

[ItalianoVD]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

[ItalianoVD]

Pretty much everyone who saw my initial post for what it was seems the likeliest to be town so far to me. GuiltyLion, Ydrasse, 72 and pii. I’ve already mentioned my two top scumreads. (my voters)

Besides I’d love to believe I could work with Hobbes to find these scum and eventually solve this game, eh?

Even though I find it scummy as well, I doubt both mafia would use the same point to push you early game. One of them to me is being truthful.

Where do I fall in your reads? And Walter?

Oh man I knew I forgot someone. You were the other one that made the same point as the others, my mistake. I agree that it more than likely wouldn’t be both scum voting for me, so I’m leaning more towards UNOwen being scum than DoctorPepper. DoctorPepper being the SE though doesn’t rule out him out for me.

Walter I’m not sure of yet. I’m gonna go read all of his posts again and see if anything stands out.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh yeah by the way

VOTE: UNOwen

[ItalianoVD]

After seeing the vote count I need to read everything again to see what JT did or said that has em at 2 votes.

[ItalianoVD]

This is a newbie, and with newbie games come the misconception of "scum want to push easy mislynches". The last newbie game I played, I won as scum not by pushing for mislynches but because I intentionally stayed under the radar. I hard defended the day 1 mislynch, knowing full well that it will flip town. The rest of the mislynches I joined but I never drove the wagon, I found flimsy reasons to do it. So Italiano, while I don't think it automatically means you're scummy, it's odd that you're painting it as such because I am pushing for your mislynch.

I’m not familiar with that meta, but I can’t just completely throw out that thought process because I know you didn’t say that, but my point is if that

I mean I agree, being reactionary and painting a target on your back isn't a good way to play scum.

That doesn't necessarily mean that you won't do it.

This is very true and you can’t rule out that possibility. But I promise you that in only my second game I am definitely not be bold enough to make a move like that.

In fact that's weird that you're scum reading people just because they're voting you.

Why? I don’t think it’s weird at all imo. If a player knows that they are townie then to me it’s logical for them to think that the people voting for them is suspicious, especially when the reasoning is somewhat weak. As a matter of fact I think scum would refrain from revenge voting and would be more inclined to either look elsewhere or try to befriend their voter(s). Again I’m not familiar with the site’s meta and how newbie games go, but I assume things are the same and that’s the information I go by.

If either of us were scum, why did we single you out as the mislynch of the day?

If your vote was random and if UNOwen’s vote was random then I wouldn’t have had a problem with it, but because your vote was specifically due to my RVS vote and shortly after UNOwen piggybacking off of that my suspicions went up. Hence the reason why I said you two seemed opportunistic two find a reason for mislynch.

[ItalianoVD]

I’m not familiar with that meta, but I can’t just completely throw out that thought process because I know you didn’t say that, but my point is if that

Arghh that’s supposed to say

I’m not familiar with that meta, but I can’t just completely throw out that thought process because you think I’m targeting you.

you can disregard the rest of that.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano, that assumes that I know for sure you're a mislynch

I’m not speaking for you. I’m speaking for myself and I know it’d be a mislynch so that’s the information I’m going off of in my evaluating. I will interact with more of the players so I can try to solidify my other reads, but my reads for you and UNOwen are where they are for now.

Even assuming you're town, it's equally valid for me to think you're scum because of your actions.

But townie do stupid scummy things sometimes right so basing your reads on just actions seems off target. Scum generally don’t do scummy things unless they slip up? But I’m guessing in newbie games slip ups are more common, so there’s that, lol.

[ItalianoVD]

Both of these quotes kinda sum up why the whole idea is flawed to begin with

if you think Action A is scum-indicative but you have two people who committed Action A and you also think one of them is Town, then it follows that Action A by itself cannot be something that you consider scum-indicative, because town literally also did it.

This makes sense, but in this instance Player 1 committing Action A on his own validity pings me at say 50%, Player 2 committing Action A is going to ping me at 60%, Player 3 commiting Action A is going to ping me at 70% and so on and so on. I believe Player 2 is scummier then Player 1 even though they did the same action, if that makes sense.

I understand that it's maybe faulty logic or analysis, but it's all I have to go by. If I was scum I would try to direct the vote elsewhere, not OMGUS.

[ItalianoVD]

I genuinely think the interaction with DoctorPepper and 72 is town v town, but it's my gut so take with that what you will. Guilty, Ydrasse, and 72 are voting for TTJT for fair enough reasons to me. I'm wary about TTJT voting with me. Post 111 from 72 stands out to me because I feel TTJT could be using that against me here. I mean I have my reasons for voting UNOwen and backing off of DoctorPepper and TTJT is mirroring my actions. Hmm.

DoctorPepper can you elaborate on 25 Why do you think 72 and myself are scum partners or I should say why would you not be surprised if we were? And then could you elaborate on 39 please?
Walter what did you mean by the second part of your 30 post?
DoctorPepper can you explain why it's a wasted vote in 55?
Questions for both TTJT and 72? Can you summarize an overall feeling of Walter?
I like Ydrasse's 76 post. Seemed like a genuine criticism of TTJT's questioning.
Walter can you elaborate on 76
TTJT your post in 80 seems almost like you are thumbing your nose at us. I'm probably wrong, but it just seems that way.
DoctorPepper after reading again, I like the explanation in post 88. Appreciate it. As a matter of fact I like your interaction with me as a whole. I admit not so much mine with yours.
Guilty, shouldn't the percentages in 96 be 50/50 since you are working with no information and both worlds could equally be true and equally be false? And if you don't mind could you give a better explanation of 99.
72 can you elaborate on 1) of post 100 And I really, really like 111 as I mentioned already. Makes a lot of sense and something I definitely didn't think of. Thanks.
I'll elaborate on 119 & 121 in a moment, just wanna get everything out.
Great questioning in 133

[ItalianoVD]

You know I realize I understand nothing in this game. I’ve tried to no avail.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

L1

Anyone care to hammer?

[ItalianoVD]

No I’m having fun. I love this game. The main thing is even when I read over things, certain things don’t jump out at me that jump out for the rest of you and then I don’t even know what questions to ask. Or when I don’t know how to answer a question or if I do it doesn’t satisfy the poser of the question. It’s frustrating. And when I don’t know, I just feel lost.

But if that messes up the game I will remove it

unvote:

I’m not trying to mess up the game. My bad.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: UNOwen

[ItalianoVD]

Don't mind me I was having a bit of a huff. I'm okay. This what I wanted to post, but...well...yeah.

I'll elaborate on 119 & 121 in a moment, just wanna get everything out.

Scum-you would not think you were putting a target on your back.

You and I both don't know this. Maybe scum you wouldn't think that, but you don't know what scum me would think and neither do I.

What is your thinking when deciding which of us is scummier?

I answered it in 134

Italiano's reaction to pressure has been overly defensive, so I'm content with keeping my vote there. There is quite a bit of content in the game now and he hasn't engaged with any of it, even through the prism of thinking that the people who voted for him must be scum (which is a perspective I could imagine a townie having).

You're right I haven't interacted at all except to zero in on you and Doctor and I noticed it before you said that so I wanted to change that because it's not helping.

In particular I would like to hear what your opinion of JT is.

Said that here 136

I also agree with the votes against ThirteenthJT. His stated suspicions are pretty mechanical - two people made an early push so he pressures them because he has seen scum do that before. Both of us have made further posts but I see no analysis of them so to me it looks like an attempt to take positions without being tied to anything that is specific to this game.

Do you still think that TTJT is my scum partner? Because I think maybe pii is yours.

[ItalianoVD]

so, your scumreads are both doctorpepper and unowen right now, yeah? if you could explain, do you genuinely think that both of them are aligned by virtue of a vote placed on you and do you think that as a team, two players would coordinate themselves to push early/vote together on a person? in 91 you state your reasons to believe they aren't random, but fmpov i don't think both scum would want to jump on a person like that; it seems like it's an easy way to get caught out for buddying.

I don't think they are both scum, no, for reasons you already stated. When I initially posted that was just a quick read. I could say it was to pressure them, but it wasn't.

furthermore, what do you think of doctorpepper's post in 29, where he calls out unowen for being sheepy himself? do you think that a scum player would do that to their teammate that early on? similarly, what do you think of owen saying that his mindset is matching up with pepper's? (58)

No I don't think that. I think that's why I'm feeling a little different towards DoctorPepper and I'm trying to reevaluate things.

i think that your tone so far is a bit defensive, because i don't think that a mislynch was going to come off of a two person wagon. i think that 94 is unfair because scum DO do scummy things, and that's how we find them? it seems disingenuous to say "your reads are wrong because you're reading my actions" because what else is someone supposed to read you off of? that, and the way that you've insisted so far that you're a New Player, thus you wouldn't do this or that (79, 91) seems like a convenient defense as well.

That's fair, but you never know how fast wagons can form. I've read that they can form quickly. My last game was similar: got votes early and ended up getting hammered by scum, so yeah I'm a bit defensive seeing as how things can happen. And I guess I'm going with the understanding that scum are experienced and able to hide the normal tells, but I forget that these are newbie games and apparently different from the non-newbie games?

where are your reads sitting in general right now? it seems so far you've been working with a very narrow scope as to who you've been looking at thus far fmpov. if you think that one of doctorpepper or unowen are scum, who are their partners if they aren't aligned?

You're right I'm gonna put my leads up in a moment.

[ItalianoVD]

Town read(s)

GuiltyLion
Ydrasse
72offsuit
All reads are on gut alone and cannot really put to specfics of why I feel this way, just overall posting and feel. Last game I townread 5 players and only one was scum (which was a surprise to everyone actually). The same feeling I had then I have now.

Semi Town read(s)

DoctorPepper - Saw my initial vote as scummy and said as much. I understand now it and if I was not me, I'd probably see it the same way. I still think it was a bit overzealous though. Also I believe his interaction with 72 to be town v town as I've already stated.
Walter - I cannot really read here; seems townie. Hasn't posted much, but has contributed in the posts that he has.

Null read(s)

TTJT - Don't really have a read here. Could go either way. The reason could be true about why they were asking questions and I suppose it makes sense, but it also seems like something they would do as a private analysis. Wary of his vote on UNOwen because of similar reasons I voted for him. Also 2 of my townreads are voting for him, so I'm questioning any good vibes I may feel.

Semi-scum read(s)

piisirrational - The reason pii here is for one reason only. Activity. I just played a game with him and he was very active and involved from the start. He flipped town that game. This game, he made a couple of posts and hasn't really been involved. He may have some real life things he's taking care of or dealing with, but he's playing very differently.

Scum read(s)

UNOwen - Seemed to jump at the chance to sheep DoctorPepper and build my wagon. Stated that his reason for voting should seem obvious, but still never explained why. I think the quick piggyback is what stood out to me more than the

reasoning

of the vote.

[ItalianoVD]

It's just trial and error. You can;t expect to be a pro in just 2 games.

1) Read the wiki regarding strategy and common scum tells

2) After a game reflect on what you thought were scum tells. If that player was in fact town, perhaps that scum tell isnt a thing?

If you read someone as town, who was in fact scum, then your reasoning for townreading them is not reliable

Appreciate that. Will do.

[ItalianoVD]

@Italiano

: Could you expand on your GuiltyLion read?

It is more gut than anything. His overall posting and interaction with the players makes me feel like he is town. He's playing similar to the game he said he caught the scum on day 1 on page 1. It's possible he is the experienced scum, but I'd rather deal in what's probable or more likely.

[ItalianoVD]

nah mate, that's not how probability works haha. If I roll a die, either I could roll a 1 or I could not, that doesn't mean these things are 50/50. Your mistake is to say we are working with "no information", townies are already working with information in that 6 other players are town and 2 are scum.

So for any given post right now, it's more likely to be town posting than scum posting.

Yeah I get this, but I guess my question is what math are you using? I'm trying to understand your 75/25 example.

better explanation how? do you want me to talk in greater detail about each player, or one in particular?

Yeah, it doesn't have to be a book, just a quick synopsis on why you think those three are town please.

[ItalianoVD]

I don't understand what you mean by thumbing your nose in that post Italiano.

And I'm not mirroring your actions. I have my own play and I'm following through on it. If you think it mirrors you it is coincidental. I have not town cleared you either so think I haven't been looking at your posts either. So far I see you as a player who has been out on a bad spot early and is of course paranoid to be lynched day one in both their games. Which is why I can see others saying you are being defensive.

Thank you, I want to clarify my thoughts on this.

Ydrasse while your right the first question isn't really scumhunting, don't we all want to say we solved the game day 1? Bragging rights! That's why I said it's mostly a fun question.

As to the second one, I'm experimenting with RQS and I think it is a valid questions to ask this early in the game. Like I said, I have reasons for it and want to see how well it serves me. And it's not so much relatied to looking back at it down the road. More of a now reason. And directly related to question number 1,

the fun part of question number two for scum would be looking back at engame and having been bold to actually put your partner down here would incredible for them. Bragging rights!

The bolded kind of sounds like a bold scum saying what they're going to do and then doing it, since no one could believe that the scum would be that bold to do it. And then your response sounds a little too gitty. But I just have a vivid imagination and I've been a wolf countless times when playing the wolf variation of this game and I've done bold moves like that before. Anyway, it's probably nothing and I'd rather deal with what's more likely than what's possible.

You know what, I will say I feel he is leaning town as I post this. I normally don't like town reading people because I feel it backfires on me a lot. I just see an excited player early.

What do you mean it backfires on you? How so?

Right now my guess on scum is definetly at minimum one very experience player. (SE or not). How often do newbie games feature two SE scum players?

Interesting. There are 3 SE's in the game (Guilty, Doctor, and 72). Not sure if anyone else has equal or more experience. You've already mentioned you weren't really looking at DoctorPepper anymore, so what are your reads on Guilty and 72?

So far on my questions I don't see answers for
Guiltylion
DrPepper
Italiano
Piisirrational

Just let me know if you have no intentions of answering my questions so I can explain why I did it. Thank you

It seems like the answers would change the deeper into Day 1 we get right, but I don't mind answering it.
If I had to guess the scum team, I'd say UNOwen and piisirrational
If I had to choose a partner I'd have to say 72 or Hobbes (GuiltyLion)

[ItalianoVD]

Well you asked me why scum-you would put a target on their back, I'm answering that scum-you wouldn't think they were putting a target on their back. You can say that's not how scum-you would act but it doesn't really help me because you could be lying.

That's fair.

No, I no longer think it is likely that you and JT are scum together. I am struggling with his approach to the game but I doubt you would have twice called him out for voting with you if you were partners. The point you make about pi in your next post is a solid observation and not something I had picked up on, I was surprised to see that pi posted a read list as early as page 4 in that game. It would be good to hear his explanation for why he is now playing so passively.

Why were you surprised about his list? And what

next post

are you referring to?

I appreciate that they are now answered, but why did you initially skip over my questions in post 136?

I'll elaborate on 119 & 121 in a moment, just wanna get everything out.

This is what I wrote in 136. I wanted to answer those questions separately from the rest as it was more involved with the quotes and whatnot, etc.

What did you have in mind when you talked about a partner protecting you?

What I meant was if I was scum and put the target on my back like that, anyone who tried to defend me, like it happened in this game, would end up being suspects if I did flip scum.

[ItalianoVD]

Your theory would be great if it was correct, because it makes a lot of sense.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

I can guarantee you the wolf games I’ve played are nothing like this one. Sure the concept is the same: wolves/villagers, scum/town, deception, analysis, etc., but all the different terms that I’m still trying to learn (wifom? nai? omgus? poe?, etc.) weren’t in our game.

Our forums were very antiquated and was not as modern as these. Doesn’t really make a big difference, but it’s not something I’m used to yet. Then the slots threw me off so bad last game, I understand it now, but our game was nothing like that at all.

Everyone was their own “slot” if you will and if you didn’t participate or post the village would just hang that person. You weren’t replaced by another player. I replaced a player last game that already had 2 votes.

Also these are way smaller games then I’m used to. If we didn’t have a minimum of 17 we don’t even play. There is no specific games for newbies either, they are thrown in with the rest of the player pool.

Our meta (another word we didn’t use) was that we would hang the inactive players. Since Day 1 was a crapshoot, that’s where we throw our vote.

A lot of the things that are done in this game would get you hung in our game, like not voting for your most suspicious person. The voting is weird in this game and takes some getting used to. So yeah I have a years of experience playing this game and am pretty decent with the concept, but everything in this game is foreign to me.

With all that said I know this game will make me better and sharper because it’s so structured and different. Our games were no where near as structured so I know when I do play our games again, my eyes will be open to a lot of the things you all opened my eyes to.

[ItalianoVD]

his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.[/post]
That’s true because I wasn’t looking at anything else, however when I did, pii stood out to me, especially just having played with him. Actually after being told by UNOwen and you I believe that I hadn’t engaged with anyone else I wanted to change that.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me.
the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

First what is ate-y? I

was

being dramatic because I was genuinely frustrated. I had answered questions and it obviously wasn’t good enough answers because Guilty voted for me, so that why I said what I said and voted. Even reading the wikis didn’t seem to help, so I imagined I just needed more reps, but because I was getting voted and potentially would get lynched Day 1, I figured to just move it along

I actually had all my notes and stuff in my notepad ready to post when I saw the ,

So I figured I would Lynch myself, flip town and read the rest of the game and learn that way. However I assumed it would mess up the game by the responses of you and 72 and I didn’t want to do that, so I stopped being emotional and got back to what I was going to post anyway. I wasn’t frustrated because of the concept of the game, I was frustrated because I don’t/didn’t understand the intricacies of the game.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

This is a great analysis and I genuinely don’t have a rebuttal. All I can say is it’s not true for me. I agree the slot should have pressure on it and it’s unfortunate pii had to get replaced. Would have wanted to see his reaction to everything.

[ItalianoVD]

Want to clean up the quotes a bit.

his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.[/post]

That’s true because I wasn’t looking at anything else, however when I did, pii stood out to me, especially just having played with him. Actually after being told by UNOwen and you I believe that I hadn’t engaged with anyone else I wanted to change that.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me.
the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

First what is ate-y? I

was

being dramatic because I was genuinely frustrated. I had answered questions and it obviously wasn’t good enough answers because Guilty voted for me, so that why I said what I said and voted. Even reading the wikis didn’t seem to help, so I imagined I just needed more reps, but because I was getting voted and potentially would get lynched Day 1, I figured to just move it along

I actually had all my notes and stuff in my notepad ready to post when I saw the ,

So I figured I would Lynch myself, flip town and read the rest of the game and learn that way. However I assumed it would mess up the game by the responses of you and 72 and I didn’t want to do that, so I stopped being emotional and got back to what I was going to post anyway. I wasn’t frustrated because of the concept of the game, I was frustrated because I don’t/didn’t understand the intricacies of the game.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

This is a great analysis and I genuinely don’t have a rebuttal. All I can say is it’s not true for me. I agree the slot should have pressure on it and it’s unfortunate pii had to get replaced. Would have wanted to see his reaction to everything.

[ItalianoVD]

*when I saw the vote on me by GuiltyLion

[ItalianoVD]

1 I stated the fun part for both town and mafia. Choosing to signal one over the other is very selective. I wanted to give pii a chance to respond but people keep referencing my questions so here is a short response about then. Yes I am baiting answers, town are more likely to feel relaxed and answer a question like that why scum tend to believe everything is a play and become paranoid and overthink more. A simple answer to that question would not hurt and if you want to grill me on later sure. In a scum mindset you would wifom yourslef. Overthink and possibly slip. That's a quick summary of that.

How fullproof is that? The wiki states that wifom is the dilemma that arises from trying to predict whether someone has made an optimal but expected choice, or a suboptimal but unexpected one.

2 When I town read someone it's hard for me to untown read them later. It can make me stubborn to see others points on why they could be scum.

Is it that way in reverse for you? I mean if you scumread someone is it hard for you to move away from them?

3 Neither is currently a lynch I want to pursue. They seem like strong town players if town. Mislynching one of them could devastate us on subsequent days. I have been trying to meta them when I get chance to see if they have an obvious tells. This dosnst mean to not look in their direction as day one goes on.

So now that you have moved away from DoctorPepper and you said you'd rather not lynch GuiltyLion or 72, who else fits your scenario of there being at least one experienced scum?

[ItalianoVD]

That wifom term still gets me. Can wifom be used as a verb? Like TTJT said; I could wifom myself? Or what exactly is the simplest way to use it, or understand it for that matter.

[ItalianoVD]

Basically, from a town point of view, there are 8 other players, 6 are town and 2 are scum. So if you pick a slot at random, there's 75% odds that it's town. That's where the numbers come from, hopefully that made it more clear? (for scum point of view this doesn't hold up, because 7 of the slots are town and 1 is their buddy, but also they already know who is who).

Got it. makes sense.

What I was also trying to say was, based on these prior odds, a lot of things people think or argue are scum tells really aren't scumtells at all, they're just noise. The vast majority of posts in most games are coming from town. The best scumtells IMO are behaviors/patterns that

don't

come from town, as opposed to things that come from town sometimes and come from scum sometimes, and I try to apply this reasoning to when I'm looking at whether I think a certain post is more likely coming from scum or town.

I see. And those patterns show themselves the longer the game goes on?

[ItalianoVD]

GL and Walter voting on an inactive slot does not bode well with me considering that there are so many active slots in the game

Walter had precedent for voting pii in 133. The doubt was already there.

[ItalianoVD]

Bolded Italianos statements on boldness. At first in response to a questions he says he is not bold enough to out a target on his back. Then in response to one of my posts he calls me out for potentially being bold scum with my question and claims it's so etching he would be bold enough to do or have done. A clear contradiction.

It's interesting to me how this is only mentioned after Ydrasse mentioned it in 222

[ItalianoVD]

@Walter - trying to be a fly on the wall, would you say you would appear as townie to other town players or scummy to other town players?

Is this a question that helps the town? I'm trying to get a better understanding of the questions I should be asking, but this one seems kind of pointless?

[ItalianoVD]

I also got the vibe that he was buddying me in 81

I was buddying you, but only because of this:

He strikes me as a smart/capable player

(his avatar also contributes to this impression )

Calvin & Hobbes man

[ItalianoVD]

Since I scum read him naturally I am looking at situations where he would do, the most obvious one being that he didn't think he was putting a target on his back.

See that's just it, I don't think you scumread me naturally. I think you piggybacked and now are trying to force it to be and not looking elsewhere. Who is my potential partner since you said you don't think it's TTJT anymore? Who are your scumreads at the moment?

Is this from experience or something?
Some of Italiano's recent posts have seemed more town, but this one specifically looks pretty neutral. I'd believe him posting it as either alignment.

Is it enough to keep your vote there? Anything from anyone else stand out to you?

[ItalianoVD]

And I can put my full readlist once I'm done. Currently I am on page 7 ok f the day and will finish up tomorrow. Mixing my reads with my reread reads my top two scum reads right now are Unowen and Walterthedunce. Behind them I have 3 weaker scum reads.

How close are you to being done with your reads?

[ItalianoVD]

I thought the scum team might have been you + GuiltyLion and wanted to keep the pressure on in case I was right. My suspicions of you both have lessened since then, so it's no longer something I'm interested in pursuing.

When did you mention that you thought GuiltyLion was scum? Only mention I see from you regarding GuiltyLion are in posts 167 & 202. As a matter of fact could you give us a reads list?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm still learning what questions are useful too. Just try to generate discussion that is player-specific. Trial and error.
My intention is to see if his SRs and TRs align with what !townWalter would be thinking about the SRs and TRs of others on him.

Ahh okay. I still don't see a point of the questioning and why it stands out for Walter, but that's okay. I'm not sure if I need to see a point.

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: Italiano
VOTE: ThirteenthJT
In particular I like that Italiano has brought up JT's "guess" that there is a scum within the experienced players, despite not holding active suspicions of any of them.

That's something that I had noticed, so it's reassuring that Italiano is looking at those posts in a similar way.

It is the same sort of backwards approach from JT that led to him deciding that one of DoctorPepper/myself must be scum.

If that's something you noticed, why wasn't it one of your main reasons for scumreading him? And I wouldn't say that it was a backwards approach.

[ItalianoVD]

You know, I feel like TTJT is probably scum. Post 321 feels incomplete and forced. Nothing new really stands out from what they have already said. Their theory of at least one experienced player being scum was found to have holes in it. Their reads list is kind of mysterious and they seem to be unable or unwilling to pinpoint or solidify any real thoughts on anyone. Not really feeling good vibes from their recent posts.
With that said, I haven’t felt any better about UNOwen either. The biggest thing is them “scumreading” GuiltyLion, which they never actually did, but stated that they were “looking at it”. It’s a pretty big detail to leave out or not put down if that was/is your scumread and reasons why you were scumreading that person.

[ItalianoVD]

Hey Mini,

Question. What was the point of 347? You just quoted a conversation, but didn’t say anything about it. Also not sure if I got from your posts that who scumread TTJT. Can you elaborate on that thought process.

[ItalianoVD]

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

Not a fan of this post.

Agreed.

Can you both elaborate why? What stood out to you about that post?

[ItalianoVD]

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

Interesting point! I’d like to hear what he has to say as well. What are your thoughts on it 72?

[ItalianoVD]

also DoctorPepper in addendum to this, I'd like an update on your read on 72offsuit. You were scumreading him earlier, I gave some reasons as to why I think he might be scum, I find it strange that now you pivot to Walter and toss some suspicion at me instead of potentially working with me on 72offsuit.

Interesting point! I’d like to hear what he has to say as well. What are your thoughts on it 72?

Anyone care to explain TTJT as scum? I'm kinda town reading their posts because the UNOwen analysis makes sense to me

Not a fan of this post.

Agreed.

Can you both elaborate why? What stood out to you about that post?

Doctor Pepper is inviting people to convince him to scumread JT, even though the reasons for that suspicion have been well discussed and he can surely make up his own mind. He "kinda" townreads JT, which is a noncommittal read if I've ever seen one. So weak resistance to JT wagon, but one that leaves plenty of room to back down. Then he says the analysis against me "makes sense". It's not clear what he means and it's not paired with a vote, so again vague and noncommittal but this time in support of the wagon against me.

It also bothers me what's not in the post: despite suggesting support for the case against me, his vote is still sitting on Walter. There is no effort to push forward the Walter vote, or pressure Walter or really advance anything.

And finally, Doctor Pepper is the most experienced player in the game (at least by join date, I don't know how much he has played compared to the other SEs). The only player who has seemed less engaged was pi, who had a grand total of 4 posts.

Pretty much this feels spot on.

The vibe im getting reading DP from a scum perspective:

Abysmal return from VLA. Rather than an eager reread of missed content and a catchup, instead offers crap all.

There isnt much impetus for a Walter lynch. DP knows this. Doesnt really push his lynch nor any other lynch hard.
Scum agenda here would be to Maintain status quo if town are the leading lynches.

If DP is town and thinks TTJT is likely town, would press more for lynching another target, not ask to be convinced on TTJT.
Still leaves the option to vote for TTFT ajar, as deadline approaches.

The 352 'analysis' post just smacks of lazy scum, not even quoting ehat he is referring to, not even bothering to make a clear convincing case, despite a player he doesnt scumread being the leading wagon

Okay that all makes sense to me. These recent turn of events has me really thinking hard about what I'm actually thinking, lol. Nothing has really changed for UNOwen and I still feel TTJT may be scum, but the way DoctorPepper and Mini have come in has me questioning it all. Like what if TTJT was onto something about an SE being scum: that would fit DoctorPepper and he's acting weird since he jumped off of me. Mini voting for TTJT without actually catching up just feels lazy. My question is do town and scum do lazy things equally? Or is it one or the other? I would be okay voting for any of the four: 1) UNOwen 2) TTJT 3) Mini 4) DoctorPepper. Who's the most likely scum(s) out of the four?

[ItalianoVD]

I actually have no defense for my play today aside from just being at a bad time with real life.

Give me the weekend I'll have some time to read through

I guess we'll just have to take your word for it. Don't think it'll stop us voting for you though. I do find it interesting that TTJT is saying the same thing as you and you both took V/LA. I'm not questioning your rl issues. Sorry man I really hope you are able to work out your issues. But it's just interesting and even pii asked to be replaced. Sera never posted once. What is this game doing to people?

[ItalianoVD]

I forgot: made me vote myself off.

[ItalianoVD]

As irresponsible as this sounds, I'm not really super concerned with my lynch if town wants to make that mistake

I don't know, this last post here makes me feel uneasy about voting for DoctorPepper now. What is everyone else's thoughts about it? Scum

could

say it's a "mistake", but how likely?

[ItalianoVD]

To add, this is the second mention of how a vote for him would not be a good choice.

[ItalianoVD]

As irresponsible as this sounds, I'm not really super concerned with my lynch if town wants to make that mistake

I don't know, this last post here makes me feel uneasy about voting for DoctorPepper now. What is everyone else's thoughts about it? Scum

could

say it's a "mistake", but how likely?

Surely scum

would

say it's a mistake, unless they were throwing in the towel completely. Could you explain what you mean by "how likely"?

why does it make you uneasy that he’s saying he’s not a good vote @italiano?

I don’t know if DoctorPepper is playing mind games, but to me it seems like he might be trying to softclaim a special role.

And what I mean by how likely is: what is the scum meta? If I’m going by my theory, do scum soft claim when they are not in danger of being lynched? Seems they would only do it at L1. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but the words he’s used (wasted vote, mistake, irresponsible) has me thinking differently. And that’s why I was asking about the scum meta and if this is something that they do or could do.

Here’s my thinking:

Based on the ratio, which is 7:2, getting it wrong and lynching a townie on Day 1 is not that big of a mistake. I got lynched Day 1 my last game and the twin still won.

There can be a mislynch or two without it becoming completely unwinnable for town. I’d assume that townies would like to NOT get lynched sure, but not sure if they would say it’s a wasted vote or that it’s a mistake to vote for them or that’s it’s irresponsible, but that’s only my assumption.

[ItalianoVD]

*town still won.

[ItalianoVD]

Wow 3 whole new pages. Gimme a moment to catch up.

[ItalianoVD]

It’s a lot more I want to get to, but as of right now, I don’t like the DoctorPepper wagon and I feel DoctorPepper is telling the truth about someone. Like I said I’ll go more in depth later.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: 72

[ItalianoVD]

So this is my updated reads list and my thoughts up to this point.

TOWN
DoctorPepper - moved up from semi town because of his recent posting, especially 515. Town play looser because they have nothing to hide.
GuiltyLion - hasn’t really changed since the beginning. Has felt as much town as he did earlier.
Walter - moves up from semi town because of his overall posting and overall feel. I’ve liked his interactions with Owen, 72, and especially TTJT and his wagon hopping has me thinking town.

NULL
Ydrasse - Has fallen down a couple of notches for me. It’s not necessarily a bad thing, however, as she is leaning more towards town null than scum null. Don’t know what it is, but I’m just not as sure as I was earlier.
Mini - Hasn’t posted much and don’t really have a read. A couple of others have townread her. I don’t know, maybe.

SCUM
72 - Dropped several spots. Because of the recent posting towards the town and towards DoctorPepper. Voted for DoctorPepper and then went on to convince the town to vote for him instead of letting it build organically. Seemed to be trying too hard to make it happen. Also all of his recent posting has a lot of frustration and annoyance that they didn’t previously have. Yes I know it’s a 180. One thing I will say is that just because you read someone a certain way doesn’t mean that read cannot change and that you shouldn’t be willing to pull the trigger, which brings me to my next read.
TTJT - Dropped a spot or two. Very, very unsure of himself and unwilling to pull the trigger or read anyone else except for the same reads he had at the beginning of the day. Well a lot has happened and changed since that time. I think the wagon hopping reasoning for Walter is weak because I see town doing that a lot, not here, but on my forum (sorry to keep referring back to it), but wagon hoppers were more often than not villagers. Scum or wolves don’t want that attention. I know you can’t rule it out, but in this case I’m going to. Also haven’t seen him change or reframe his theory of there being at least one SE on the scum team and yet two of them are on wagons and he’s not willing to vote for either of them.

SEMI SCUM
UNOwen - moves up a little actually. As the least scummy of the three is still here because I can’t shake his early supposed scumread of GuiltyLion without actually scumreading him and it continues to stand out for me. Even though he’s moved away from me I still think it’s possible he could be scum.

POSSIBLE PARTNER COMBINATIONS
TTJT/72
TTJT/Owen
72/Owen
72/Mini

Any questions feel free to ask and Ill clear it up best I can.

[ItalianoVD]

Huh? I see a lot has happened. I was expecting 72 to be the one getting the votes. I was certain Walter was gonna vote for him since he had suspicions of him earlier. Voting for TTJT was kind of weird for me. And after 72’s move onto TTJT I have to assume JT is town because if 72 is scum it would be extremely dumb to bus your partner when you didn’t have to. Unless neither of them are scum. I don’t know what to think now. I wish it was as easy and JT flips scum, but if not I don’t see why we shouldn’t/wouldn’t vote for 72 on Day 2. That’s who I expected to go anyway. Ehh.

[ItalianoVD]

Had I said this someone would have said this was scum motivated.

This was my main reason for reading you the way I did, because you weren’t saying anything. Had you said this earlier I know I would have felt better about you. I think you mentioned this too late. You were saying that you felt at least one scum was experienced, but you didn’t want to vote for any of the experienced players. Sorry if you flip town, but I think we have a pretty good town atmosphere here so the scum will eventually be caught because we seem to be working together somewhat.

[ItalianoVD]

Suddenly TTJT's top scumreads are the top 2 wagons.
Yeah nah.

VOTE: TTJT

You can’t tell me that you weren’t aware of the vote count. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

[ItalianoVD]

Lol. Nice so im scum either way. Fits nicely with your tunnel

At best you’re bad townie, so either way it’s not a help to the town.

[ItalianoVD]

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

I’m wondering when you felt this because you voted for DoctorPepper. Whether it was before or after you voted for him doesn’t change anything.

[ItalianoVD]

If JT isn't trolling then the partner is probably GuiltyLion.

[ItalianoVD]

So this was the votecount before Walter, TheThirteenthJT, GuiltyLion, and 72 all made their final votes:

DoctorPepper (3)

- 72offsuit, Ydrasse, GuiltyLion,

TheThirteenthJT (2)

- UNOwen, MiniMegabyte

72offsuit (2)

- DoctorPepper, ItalianoVD

WaltertheDunce10 (1)

- TheThirteenthJT

Walter voted for TTJT, (which as I mentioned was a bit weird to me), and tied up the score between him and DoctorPepper @ 3.
TTJT then voted for 72 which made it a 3 way tie between himself, DoctorPepper, and 72.
That's when GuiltyLion broke the tie and voted for TTJT, which made the vote count:
TTJT(4)
72offsuit(3)
DoctorPepper(2)

I still don't understand how and why 72 would/could not have seen the votecount at the top of the page before hammering, but I have to say both moves onto TTJT look suspicious imo. I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper. If GuiltyLion and DoctorPepper are scum together it would make sense and the push onto 72 is a sham.

For the record when something is too easy in this game I have always questioned it and always will. I only have trust in myself at the moment. I know I townread the people I did and scumread the people I did, but I feel I need to throw all that out and start fresh. The worse thing I could do if believe that I'm not wrong on my reads. The final moments of Day 1 and the lack of a night kill makes me think this way.

I think it rules out the mason setups and either a doctor saved DoctorPepper (IMO he's the easy choice for most likely NK there) or a JKer prevented the kill. Not sure if it's wise to speculate beyond that at this point, the main thing I'm taking from it is DocPep should be basically treated as conftown for today

Why was DoctorPepper the easy choice for NK? Compared to yourself or myself or anyone else? And what gives us the impression that he be treated as confirmed town? Nothing shows that this is true. Unless I am missing it.

[ItalianoVD]

Yeah I get it, I just don’t like easy days. If 72 is scum, he has played this game very poorly imo. Oh well.

VOTE: 72offsuit

That is

L1

[ItalianoVD]

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

[ItalianoVD]

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

[ItalianoVD]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

You’re either a great scum or a townie because this was pretty good. Just basing it on how it sounds and looks, I’d have to say I don’t feel any scummy vibes, but like I said you could be playing a great town role. For now I’m gonna trust you.

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

For the record when something is too easy in this game I have always questioned it and always will. I only have trust in myself at the moment. I know I townread the people I did and scumread the people I did, but I feel I need to throw all that out and start fresh. The worse thing I could do if believe that I'm not wrong on my reads. The final moments of Day 1 and the lack of a night kill makes me think this way.

[ItalianoVD]

Huh? I see a lot has happened. I was expecting 72 to be the one getting the votes. I was certain Walter was gonna vote for him since he had suspicions of him earlier. Voting for TTJT was kind of weird for me. And after 72’s move onto TTJT I have to assume JT is town because if 72 is scum it would be extremely dumb to bus your partner when you didn’t have to. Unless neither of them are scum. I don’t know what to think now. I wish it was as easy and JT flips scum, but if not I don’t see why we shouldn’t/wouldn’t vote for 72 on Day 2. That’s who I expected to go anyway. Ehh.

Why were you expecting mpre votes on me?

Because in my mind I knew Walter was suspicious of you. Ydrasse said her bit about you and DoctorPepper. I figured Walter to vote you. I figured Ydrasse would go back over the scenario again and possibly vote you. This is after JT tied up the score so I thought it was very possible for it to play out the way it did in my mind.

Suddenly TTJT's top scumreads are the top 2 wagons.
Yeah nah.

VOTE: TTJT

You can’t tell me that you weren’t aware of the vote count. That just doesn’t make sense to me.

I can say that and that's what happened.

Sure you can say it, but I don’t believe you. And if you’re careless like that now, who’s to say you won’t be careless like that later?

Lol. Nice so im scum either way. Fits nicely with your tunnel

At best you’re bad townie, so either way it’s not a help to the town.

What point are you trying to make in this post?

You’re “mistake” was careless as townie and calculated as scum. Neither helps town which is why I’m voting for you. I can’t and won’t speak for anyone else.

[ItalianoVD]

If 72 is scum, he has played this game very poorly imo

This is why we need to spend more time on UNOwen, Ydrasse, Mini, and myself. 72 strikes me as a pretty capable player, I don't think he instahammers unless there's a benefit to him. Like I said, I think the worst case scenario is his partner is Ydrasse or UNOwen and set to have a really good chance to endgame, in which case we need to do as much as we can to give ourselves a chance at solving them. I myself don't want to be an easy mislynch for scum here

Ydrasse wouldn’t surprise me actually. One thing that hasn’t changed however is my read on UNOwen. Mini is an outlier. I think that slot is cursed It seems like it’s a scum slot that the newbies don’t know how to play. I guess I wouldn’t be surprised with you either, but unfortunately anything that I have towards you is only speculation and hypotheticals, so with nothing I’m choosing to trust you for now.

[ItalianoVD]

“It seems like it’s a scum slot that the newbies don’t know how to play...”

I forgot to add “...or experienced players who don’t want to play it.”

[ItalianoVD]

Dang my bad guys, I didn’t even know it had been that long since I posted last. I’ll catch up on a bit.

[ItalianoVD]

Real quick. GuiltyLion you pulled your vote away from 72 early on because you said you didn’t want him to self hammer. DoctorPepper said the same thing. Are you planning on voting for 72 or do you have someone else you want to lynch?

[ItalianoVD]

I'm already voting 72.

Yup I know. That’s why I was asking GuiltyLion.

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano I'd also like to jam with you next time you come to the thread, do you have any particular townreads/scumreads in the other players right now? Are you getting any scum vibes from either Ydrasse or UNOwen?

Italiano I'd also like to jam with you next time you come to the thread, do you have any particular townreads/scumreads in the other players right now? Are you getting any scum vibes from either Ydrasse or UNOwen?

I’d like to keep my thoughts to myself at the moment. Giving as how I’ve been re-evaluating this game and how my reads have changed a bit, I don’t want to tip off who I’m thinking about and allow them to change up their games or highlight an angle that I bring up and try to use it for their benefit or against someone else. Besides, I think I’ve given enough up to this point to give you an idea of where I’m more or less gonna be leaning.

I will keep asking and answering questions though, but I just feel more comfortable keeping my reads to myself. At least for right now. Talk to me again on Day 3 and if I survive.

[ItalianoVD]

Psshh, that was only supposed to be quoted once.

[ItalianoVD]

In the interest of ensuring this game isnt stalled by the eventuality of 72's lynch

Rest of town:
Who are your possible scum teams today if not 72?

I'm currently thinking Mini+UNo

Sounds like mine. UNOwen and Mini. I have another outlier, but it won’t be confirmed unless 72 flips town.

[ItalianoVD]

@GuiltyLion. Could you explain your transition from 718 to 744 to 757

I think I may have missed the reasons behind not scumreading Owen and Ydrasse.

[ItalianoVD]

@72 what exactly makes you think GuiltyLion is scum? And I’m assuming you believe UNOwen is his partner? Is it because he voted for you? Do you feel as strongly for DoctorPepper? Or myself? Or Ydrasse or Walter? Unless voting is not he reason and there is another one?

[ItalianoVD]

Again to the nonvoters at the moment: Mini, UNOwen, GuiltyLion

You all obviously don’t want to hammer, so if you feel 72 is town who are you looking at or who have you looked at?

@UNOwen. You still feel just as strongly about GuiltyLion being scum as you were before or has that died down?

[ItalianoVD]

Okay. If 72 flips town I will turn my sights onto two. If he flips scum then one of the two will be town in my book and the other will not change. Basically regardless of 72’s alignment I feel this person is scum.

[ItalianoVD]

@72 what exactly makes you think GuiltyLion is scum? And I’m assuming you believe UNOwen is his partner? Is it because he voted for you? Do you feel as strongly for DoctorPepper? Or myself? Or Ydrasse or Walter? Unless voting is not he reason and there is another one?

Because his changes of votes and progression of his play, don't strike me as being of a town mindset.

Looking back, despite me being on TTJT's wagon, the reasoning for the wagon was pretty weak. I don;t really see a world where that wagon is all town.
GL's rationale for being on the lynch was largely just parroting others

At 440 , he seems to townlean me, as he is working collaboratively with me and switches votes to DP alongside myself.

Continues insisting on townreading UNO which I don;t see at all.

556 concludes that TTJT and DP includes at least 1 scum, doesnt consider the possiblility both are town.

Then switches to me without really much thought at all, after my epic fail, which is at odds with his seemingly townlean on me earlier.

Yeah. All of this has been on my mind for a little while. I’ve found discrepancies in a lot of GuiltyLion’s posts that don’t really sit well with me and everyone knows my thoughts on UNOwen. Well let’s change up the game a little.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll be looking at two players should you flip town and should you flip scum I will only be looking at one of the two players.

So to elaborate. One of the two players I feel is scum regardless of your alignment, the other of the two players I feel, at least in my mind, can only be scum if you are town. Figured I’d put some pressure of one of the two.

[ItalianoVD]

I’ll be looking at two players should you flip town and should you flip scum I will only be looking at one of the two players.

So to elaborate. One of the two players I feel is scum regardless of your alignment, the other of the two players I feel, at least in my mind, can only be scum if you are town. Figured I’d put some pressure of one of the two.

@IVD: Would you be open to considering to voting+eliminating UNO today?

Yes. I haven’t taken my eyes off of UNOwen. His last post is weird.

[ItalianoVD]

Regarding Mini/pii/Sera slot: Sure, she could be scum. 3 players have all had the spot and all 3 have played similar. For me that is too much of a coincidence for three people to have equal amounts of real life issues. It makes more sense, at least for me, that

1)) The slot is probably scum and the players don’t want to play or understand how to play as scum and/or they don’t like the partner they are with.
2)) There more experienced partner told them to play that way so they would have a reason to bus and get town crew.

The problem #2 is that I doubt any town crew would come from bussing Mini because everyone can see how bad the slot looks. It’s not a pull.

So if we’re going with the idea that Mini is in fact scum, who is most likely her partner? And then the question is: Would her partner distance themselves from her or try to bus her? For me it’s too much to analyze for today with not a lot of time left.

UNOwen now is your chance to put your money where your mouth is and vote for GuiltyLion.

[ItalianoVD]

*cred not crew. Stupid autocorrect.

[ItalianoVD]

What is everyone’s thoughts on UNOwen’s 844? Pretty telling if you ask me.

[ItalianoVD]

Who knows, maybe, probably.

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: Unvote:

[ItalianoVD]

UNVOTE: GuiltyLion

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: UNO

All I know is someone is playing a masterful scum game. I am so confused and I both distrust and trust what everyone is saying, if that makes sense. I have no idea who is who anymore. 72 is at L1.

@UNOwen: You think GuiltyLion is scum, been saying all game that he is and now you have a chance to vote for him and tie the score at 3 and you did not. Either you are protecting the heck out of GuiltyLion or you don’t actually believe he is scum and was just throwing that out there fishing for responses. I don’t like it. You failed the test.

Vote count is:
72 (4)
UNOwen (1)

I don’t mind hammering, but I want to vote UNOwen. I feel scum is on 72’s wagon. If he is scum then the other is probably not voting (Mini) or wasting a vote (GuiltyLion). If he is town, I doubt both of them are on it. It still fits the scenario that one is on and one is off. I think we will know for sure once 72 flips. @72: I’m sorry if your town brother, but kudos to you if you’re scum because I’ve been crazy confused. You have me questioning my reads over and over.

[ItalianoVD]

*you’re town

VOTE: 72offsuit

[ItalianoVD]

VOTE: UNOwen

I’m soooooo happy that you are alive GuiltyLion. Sorry for the confusion. I believe you 100%

The #1 thing that made me think this is when you said you thought DoctorPepper softclaimed and then voted for him, while I backed off. I couldn’t say this, however, for obvious reasons.

[ItalianoVD]

The reason I voted for you is I wanted to see what UNOwen would do, since he had claimed you were part of the scum team. It wasn’t real. I also wanted to keep a bit of doubt on you, which explains the final section of 873

[ItalianoVD]

704 sounds like him distancing himself from his role, not wanting to sound like he has inside information.

[ItalianoVD]

@Ydrasse: was just putting emphasis on the word to show that I liked finding the piece to the puzzle compared to having the piece of the puzzle.

[ItalianoVD]

Well are you saying you are the town tracker?

[ItalianoVD]

Clearly not, the town tracker wouldn’t vote for himself.

And if by some chance GuiltyLion is guilty, he will be gone tomorrow. How likely do you think that is?

[ItalianoVD]

Well yup, that was the obvious kill.

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

[ItalianoVD]

Wow. Great game Ydrasse! I had you in mind, but didn’t want to overthink. Great game UNOwen, so what actually happened night one. I’m confused by the explanation up above?

[ItalianoVD]

Had tons of fun and learned a whole lot. Would love to play more games with all you guys.