Newbie 2012 - Game Over

[Ydrasse]

hello hello everyone! how's everyone doing?

VOTE: 72offsuit

[Ydrasse]

Hello, I hope everyone is doing well
[Ydrasse.vote]
How did you come up with that name?

i saw someone in an mmo with a name that started with y and then a consonant, which struck me, and then this popped into my head a moment later and i fell in love with it! fantasy-flavored and original are up my alley.

[Ydrasse]

i’m headed into work so i’ll be active in a few hours but i have a light tr on guiltylion for 26. i like his answer to doctorpepper for how it answers a pretty baseline question.

that being said i don’t think doctorpepper’s question itself is bad and i like the initiative to leave rvs. it just seems a bit shallow.

[Ydrasse]

@unowen: what about italiano’s post made you think it was suspicious?

[Ydrasse]

@unowen: what about italiano’s post made you think it was suspicious?

He voted the mod, minimizing engagement. If I had reasons beyond what DrPepper was clearly getting at I would have included them with my vote. It's not a slam dunk but definitely a better vote than random.

I gather you don't agree that the mod vote was notable?

not really, no. i feel that thinking it suspicious is a bit of a stretch, really — people in rvs are going to be a bit more silly/lighthearted until people start really scumhunting. that, and i'm of the opinion that mafia are more likely to come into this game with a serious attitude than something silly that draws attention to them.

[Ydrasse]

^ then what's the point of RVS then?
Even if it's a random vote, the point of RVS is to gain information from why the random votes were made. I.e. if you give a vote without information, then it's a reason to talk about you.

That being said, I actually think 72 is scummier, but lets wait for Italiano

that's fair! i guess i just didn't think anything of someone being silly personally, so i didn't understand the connection of, "this is a bad way to start off."

so far, people have kind of kicked off out of rvs and i haven't had to make that sort of analysis/try to jump on something myself.

[Ydrasse]

hi jt! ^^

@ Everyone:

1) What is your experience with playing mafia?
2) Do you prefer playing town or scum?
3) What do you think of the Policy lynch of Lynch All Lurkers?

for forum mafia, i have played two games with friends and more recently, three completed forum mafia games. one on mu, two on here! other than that, i have been apart of a chat-based mafia community for many years though i haven't actively played in quite a few. when i did, it was casual and not really competitive.

2) town, for sure. it's way less stressful and i like being able to read and catch out scum/make my cases.

3) bad. i think that it's better to consider why someone might be lurking moreso than immediately say "you were lurking you die." like, if someone starts up a wagon and lets a few people get it going, apply pressure, and they lurk etc etc, it's way more suspect than someone who makes a few posts that are good and show scumhunting before they bounce for a bit again. that, and irl can impact the amount of time a person can contribute to a game, and when.

[Ydrasse]

i really like 45 and 48 from 72offsuit, particularly 45? doctorpepper from what i see didn't answer it but i think it might be good to hear doctorpepper explain what they think 72offsuit gains from pushing on them. i presume it would be to discredit doctorpepper, but given that in 39 doctorpepper said they were already finding 72 scummy i'd like to hear the why behind it all.

Hey everyone. I'm coming in witH the two following questions that I would like all to answer please. Mostly for fun since it's so early in the game.

1) Random guess or analysis of what we have so far, take a crack at the scumteam. Who is the mafia team in this game?
2) If you were mafia in this game, who would you like to be your partner, or who would most likely be your partner.

i think that so far, doctorpepper's pinged me because they seemed to jump on the defensive when it came to 72 (@doctorpepper, i'd still like to hear why you thought 72 was scummy), and then you as well. your second question in particular set me off a bit too when i read it earlier, because i don't really get why you think it's a good one despite your explanation? also, i guess that asking number one is a baseline sort of thing that i could see as a scum player asking in an effort to seem helpful/game-solvey. it doesn't seem to have too much weight towards scumhunting behind it right now.

dwelling on the second question, i can only think that later down the line it might help to go back if someone flips and see who they said, but there could be a myriad of reasons why and i don't think that it's a rewarding enough question to think too hard upon.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

(REGARDLESS. you for another god-hammer and fun game in 2009!)

[Ydrasse]

other than that:

unowen: why did you put jt as your second scum option? (58)
pii: who do you think is scum, if you think italiano's post is nai? (65)
guiltylion: why do you have the trs that you do? (63)
walter: why did you put doctorpepper as your second scum option? (69)

okay, i think i should be caught up now w the thread and i'll be around a bit to talk!

[Ydrasse]

@italiano

:

so, your scumreads are both doctorpepper and unowen right now, yeah? if you could explain, do you genuinely think that both of them are aligned by virtue of a vote placed on you and do you think that as a team, two players would coordinate themselves to push early/vote together on a person? in 91 you state your reasons to believe they aren't random, but fmpov i don't think both scum would want to jump on a person like that; it seems like it's an easy way to get caught out for buddying.

furthermore, what do you think of doctorpepper's post in 29, where he calls out unowen for being sheepy himself? do you think that a scum player would do that to their teammate that early on? similarly, what do you think of owen saying that his mindset is matching up with pepper's? (58)

i think that your tone so far is a bit defensive, because i don't think that a mislynch was going to come off of a two person wagon. i think that 94 is unfair because scum DO do scummy things, and that's how we find them? it seems disingenuous to say "your reads are wrong because you're reading my actions" because what else is someone supposed to read you off of? that, and the way that you've insisted so far that you're a New Player, thus you wouldn't do this or that (79, 91) seems like a convenient defense as well.

where are your reads sitting in general right now? it seems so far you've been working with a very narrow scope as to who you've been looking at thus far fmpov. if you think that one of doctorpepper or unowen are scum, who are their partners if they aren't aligned?

[Ydrasse]

@ydrasse

I think I answered it in my post 50? Where scum would want to discredit other players? In an attempt to drive townies to that player or potentially buddy up to ther players the other is attacking.

I called it as discrediting because e moving past RVS is being painted as "shallow" and "looking townie"

okay, i was sorting that into the "defense" category without reading it as an explanation, my bad.

also, i believe i used the word shallow at some point in reference to your moving past rvs, though i wanna clarify i don't think it's inherently a bad thing at that stage of the game. a lot of things are most likely going to be shallow at the beginning, imo.

where are your reads at currently? is 72 still your top sr?

[Ydrasse]

guiltylion: why do you have the trs that you do? (63)

would it be okay if I just lazily said that I've played somewhere in the range of 60-70+ games at least on site and altogether their posts and behavior so far vibe town to me? Given that most players are town it only takes a few really genuine sounding thought processes and attempts to sort in order to move someone into my 'prob don't want to lynch today' pile

......for now. >:|

do you still scumread jt after they clarified what they meant about one of doctorpep/owen being scum?

[Ydrasse]

@72offsuit:

regarding 105, why did you feel the need to ask this question? this post pinged me a bit because i feel like you're asking about trs/talking about them for, fmpov, isn't the right reason to do so?

also, you threw down your vote on jt with no explanation in the post itself; do you sr him for the reasons in 112, and do you still find him scummy after him clarifying what he meant?

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: 72offsuit

I now upon a reread think that last question could be used by scum to change their play in a subtle way.
I would like to know your thinking on the last one and why it is important?
If town, my feeling is that it is a test, but a sloppy one, which, an experienced player would be able to better conduct in a better fashion.
This only adds to my scum read as it gives scum an easy out and ability to adjust.

on another note, Anyone else find it odd that piisirrational popped up answered 72's questions and then dissapeared.

what do you think a scum player's agenda would be by asking that question, and how much do you think they stand to gain from it?

from your iso, it seems like you've given more analysis of doctorpepper's posts than you have 72's save for this one and in 69. what other reasons do you find 72 scummy?

also, i personally don't think it means anything because pii popped up again and then disappeared without offering much once more.

[Ydrasse]

I don't understand what you mean by thumbing your nose in that post Italiano. And I'm not mirroring your actions. I have my own play and I'm following through on it. If you think it mirrors you it is coincidental. I have not town cleared you either so think I haven't been looking at your posts either. So far I see you as a player who has been out on a bad spot early and is of course paranoid to be lynched day one in both their games. Which is why I can see others saying you are being defensive.

My read on Walter is still quite neutral. He seems enthusiastic to be playing. I don't take is an indicator of alignment just yet. He could either be an excited newbie staying alert and ready to play or a smart scum player feigning this, but I think that would be much harder.

You know what, I will say I feel he is leaning town as I post this. I normally don't like town reading people because I feel it backfires on me a lot. I just see an excited player early.

Right now my guess on scum is definetly at minimum one very experience player. (SE or not). How often do newbie games feature two SE scum players?

Ydrasse that's what I was getting at when I stated one scum one town earlier. Now I am leaning Uno here. What's your thoughts on their play? Was he sheeping or being genuine? I feel the doctor has cleared up that doubt I had earlier.

So far on my questions I don't see answers for
Guiltylion
DrPepper
Italiano
Piisirrational

Just let me know if you have no intentions of answering my questions so I can explain why I did it. Thank you

do you mean that doctorpepper has become a tr to you at this point? i just wanna clarify that since it seemed like you hadn't cleared him totally in 127. as for owen, i don't think the sheeping pinged me on his posts so much as the subsequent ones he made where he called them suspicious but didn't give the answer until asked. similarly, he didn't give a reason why he sr'd you until he was asked and threw down your name as to who he thought the scum were. (118)

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

@owen: what do you think of italiano trying to interact with more people now and asking them questions/wanting clarity on things? and offering more of his opinions on other posters.

[Ydrasse]

hopefully tomorrow i will be around in real time for Real This Time to talk and not communicate through these posts beyond the veil of night.

[Ydrasse]

dude, what? why are you giving up?

[Ydrasse]

yeah, like... i understand getting frustrated because that definitely happens in this sort of game, but no one is taking this personally and we're all just trying to have fun.

[Ydrasse]

i'll post more in a bit but italiano, i really think that you shouldn't just give up like that. if you think it's not for you, sure, but you should try to have fun with this. :<

[Ydrasse]

i don't think that wagoning the slot is inherently a bad idea just because someone's gonna replace into it.

however, my poe still includes italiano as a potential solve; rereading his iso (b/c of their self-vote from yesterday), his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me. the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

pii's posts were nondescript to me and i don't feel that i can say much more on the slot until someone replaces into it and becomes active.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

[Ydrasse]

sorry for dipping after dropping my vote a few pages back, irl stuff do be a bitch.

is there anything people want me to reply to/look at in particular as i start going through the new pages?

[Ydrasse]

GuiltyLion

:

Early on, I had a light TR (28) on GuiltyLion for his answer to DoctorPepper, and I think that the way he's approached this game as a whole has left me feeling good about him. I feel that his play is an exceedingly fair and open-minded, and tries to engage with people without any scum agenda behind it. Whenever I see people trying to get to the why behind someone's actions and motivations, I find that towny if only because it shows a person who is trying to understand others and work alongside the town rather than against it.

That being said, I did get pinged by post 63 and that is why I followed up in 77; I think that people who out townreads and just say them without reason could be scum who are using it to pocket other players. It's easier for a scum player to just out a few names and say they're towny if they're informed and hope that people will take it at face value. Thus, my paranoia.

Regardless, he did follow up eventually, so that was that. Even if he hadn't, I like posts such as 218 and 255, and they leave me feeling good about GuiltyLion.

My one point against GuiltyLion as it stands is that I don't really like the pii vote in retrospect. I feel that between the two choices of his SRs, it would've made a lot more sense to have voted 72 in that situation. Even if it is the weaker of the two reads from what I gather in 255, putting pressure on someone who is there and active feels fruitful in comparison to a slot that still hasn't appeared — granted an explanation came in the form of 252, which means this could just be my personal preference as to how I would've played versus someone who Isn't Me.

However, I don't think that's damning enough at all to make me consider GuiltyLion a lynch today at all, and I feel good about this slot as it stands.

[Ydrasse]

WaltertheDunce10:

I feel that Walter's posting, for the most part, is fine in the early parts of the game. Nothing about it in particular unnerved me and I admittedly didn't think too hard about what he was saying.

However, going over his ISO again I feel that it's weird that he dropped the scumread he had on DoctorPepper in 69 (and 140? but I could be misinterpreting this). While he was consistent about the scumread on 72, the other one isn't mentioned again. In fact, the first time it is mentioned at all is in reply to someone else (69), who had a read on DoctorPepper.

Similarly, his vote on Pii seems to be one that needed someone else's affirmation behind it before he was willing to go after it. Walter had already shaded Pii in 133, and in 196 he makes reference to Pii and his activity again. However, it is only after Lion places his vote that Walter is willing to in 219.

I do not think it is bad to follow someone else's points/reads; similarly, I found that GuiltyLion made good points on the Pii slot whereas I had next to nothing on in until his analysis. It feels scummy, though, for Walter to have this habit of shading people but only going after them when there's someone else to back him up.

That being said, I think that his progression on 72 is the one that stands out. I don't think the rationale behind it is great, since it seems to be based upon one of the questions that 72 asked, but he did so without prompting or following anyone else, and it later resolved itself as Walter unvoted. In theory, this could be a scum player trying to get traction on someone and bailing out when no one seems to bite, but I'm unsure of how likely that is.

I think that I would not be surprised if Walter was scum, based on his reads and voting patterns, but I'm also considering the amount of experience that he has as well. It could be that he's a town player that reacts and reads things very... shallowly? Which is not bad because yeah, it's hard playing for your first games and you learn from other players and how they approach things. It just makes Walter look really bad for being super sheepy.

So this slot is in the lower end of things for me, but I don't see it as my first choice vote at all.

[Ydrasse]

okay there are my two isos so far my brain hurts and i'm taking a break.

[Ydrasse]

i don't think that wagoning the slot is inherently a bad idea just because someone's gonna replace into it.

however, my poe still includes italiano as a potential solve; rereading his iso (b/c of their self-vote from yesterday), his only mention of pii before they started adding pii into their solve was 81 where they townread them. and then they come back to that slot in 188 with a scumread.

i think that what pinged me about this was that it came after italiano self-voting. while i think that frustration is within a vacuum nai, that he had pressure on him and then turned to a self-vote after feels very ate-y to me. the vibe i got was that it was a bit dramatic (that being "i've tried to no avail.") before it was being brushed off and he replaced his vote on his scumread and jumped back in. it feels as if the pii scumread of convenience because italiano doesn't interact with the content of the few posts themselves.

supporting the idea that italiano could theoretically do this as scum is 204, in which he says he's been in wolf games before this and has done bold moves which to me reads as a dissonance between something i pointed out in 79 and 91, where he asserts that he is a new player to this sort of stuff. i think that while there is not a 1:1 between all versions of mafia and italiano is new to this format, i feel in particular 91 feels a bit wifomy having 204 to read now.

that being said, i could see pii as scum despite this, though without more to judge i don't think i'm sold entirely on the idea. it's possible that italiano was frustrated, if they are scum with pii, that their partner has been inactive thus far and finds it easier to bus them at this point.

pii's posts were nondescript to me and i don't feel that i can say much more on the slot until someone replaces into it and becomes active.

VOTE: ItalianoVD

Hmm I read Italianos self vote as truly a moment of desperation. If it was scum motivated, you are right on your analysis here which I have now also come to agreement with on my recent posts. Sorry I missed that you made this point earlier.

Now I would also say I feel like an experienced player would have been the one to edge him on here because I truly don't think Italiano would have taken that big of a risk or maybe he would. At bare minimum he would have consulted his partner here I would think. This is bad Wifom.

i've been meaning to ask you this: earlier on in 137, you said you believed that there was at least one experienced player in the scumteam. i don't think anyone followed up on this, but why did you think that? given the fact that you've referenced an experienced player being the person italiano would've relied on for this play, it seems like you still put some merit into that idea fmpov.

which is a bit confusing because from your last reads, you had two players as your main srs that weren't experienced at all (285). i know you're rereading but the two ideas seem at odds with one another.

[Ydrasse]

DoctorPepper:

God I wish DP would quote reply to things more often.

Rereading over this slot, I feel that the V/LA was a benefit to it if only because it meant that DP faded into the background and I was focusing on more active players. While I had asked for an explanation over the defensive nature (FMPOV) of DP in posts like 47, and was pointed to 50 as the answer I needed... it still looks defensive, at least in the first half of it. Similarly, I read 245 as mildly defensive.

Which isn't a bad thing inherently, people respond differently to things but this slot doesn't improve for me at all? I understand that DP was V/LA and it can be daunting to return to a ton of content and sift through it, but there doesn't feel like there's any progression from him upon returning.

I feel a lot of DP's reading is insinuating things are weird/off/scummy (the first being his preferred choice) without really following up on these sorts of feelings? 88, 240, 243 and 352 are to me examples of DP not doing more than pointing out something that doesn't sit well with him — granted, there was a vote in context to 243 from him on Walter in 242.

Regardless, it seems like there's not a lot from DP save for weak scumreads/shading of people without a lot of follow up. I'd like to hear the why behind DP's thought processes rather than just seeing little pop-ups of "this is weird."

[Ydrasse]

Welcome, Mini!

MiniMegabyte/Pii:

Pii was a non entity in my mind for a lot of this game because of the lack of content. I don't think that for the posts that Pii had, I can say much that hasn't already been said. I am actually a bit surprised, though, that we had somewhat similar thoughts in 65 and 138, though I guess that could be sheeping in an effort to blend in? And 139 is an explanation that I feel unnecessary.

For Mini, it's more of the same: 348, 353 and 384 are thoughts that other people have already had and stated — and from what I gather given Mini responding to an early post (27), it's possible that she saw these takes from other people and went along with them in an effort to try and gain some footing. Shallow case.

And also, while it's not of particular importance, I don't understand the reason of replying at all to a singular early game post

This slot doesn't look great, honestly. In my PoE for the day.

[Ydrasse]

After going over the game again and skim reading everything, i still stick with what I have said in regards to my thoughts. I can see however how you may think i am trying to blend in with others to keep hidden and honestly if I was scum it wouldn't be a bad play until caught out. I am still sticking with TTJT being scummy as fishing for information with the questions being asked just doesn't seem right to me.

VOTE: TheThirteenthJT

alright, do you have any other scumreads? you've skimmed the game at least so i'm wondering if anyone else stuck out to you as scummy.

[Ydrasse]

dp’s reply to me isn’t very indicative of anything. i think that a player that hasn’t kept up/been as engaged with a game as either alignment would say that.

why does it make you uneasy that he’s saying he’s not a good vote @italiano?

[Ydrasse]

As irresponsible as this sounds, I'm not really super concerned with my lynch if town wants to make that mistake

I don't know, this last post here makes me feel uneasy about voting for DoctorPepper now. What is everyone else's thoughts about it? Scum

could

say it's a "mistake", but how likely?

Surely scum

would

say it's a mistake, unless they were throwing in the towel completely. Could you explain what you mean by "how likely"?

why does it make you uneasy that he’s saying he’s not a good vote @italiano?

I don’t know if DoctorPepper is playing mind games, but to me it seems like he might be trying to softclaim a special role.

And what I mean by how likely is: what is the scum meta? If I’m going by my theory, do scum soft claim when they are not in danger of being lynched? Seems they would only do it at L1. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but the words he’s used (wasted vote, mistake, irresponsible) has me thinking differently. And that’s why I was asking about the scum meta and if this is something that they do or could do.

Here’s my thinking:

Based on the ratio, which is 7:2, getting it wrong and lynching a townie on Day 1 is not that big of a mistake. I got lynched Day 1 my last game and the twin still won.

There can be a mislynch or two without it becoming completely unwinnable for town. I’d assume that townies would like to NOT get lynched sure, but not sure if they would say it’s a wasted vote or that it’s a mistake to vote for them or that’s it’s irresponsible, but that’s only my assumption.

to be honest, i don't agree with you here that he's trying to soft anything. i think that his response was, as town, "oh you're going to regret lynching me because i am town." as scum, it's a defense that's supposed to make people think twice before actually lynching him. it's something that can be done as either alignment and it doesn't really impact how i'm reading dp currently.

@ Ydrasse: are you going to ISO anyone else?
Any particular reason for who you DID choose to ISO so far?

i am trying to iso everyone! i did them based on what i thought was easiest at the time by virtue of post count, etc. the ones i have left are the ones i feel i need to dedicate more time to reading.

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: DoctorPepper

i'm okay with this, and i don't think it's a soft at all. mini is currently an acceptable wagon. going to try and knock out more isos tonight.

[Ydrasse]

@jt: also, i want clarification on this: do you not have any townreads at all?

[Ydrasse]

@jt: also, i want clarification on this: do you not have any townreads at all?

You should know this better than everyone else why i dont give out Townreads day one. (You may hvae even called me out on this last game.) Last game I had no townreads Day one and Day 2 I had one, Poyzin who was scum and I was very against lynching. That is a perfect example of why I dont like townreading people.

And I was a mason there so even Knowing BM was town, I didnt give out reads.

that's fair. i asked only because your play feels like, opportunistic? in the sense that if you don't have any townreads and instead have this weird null/"town but off sometimes" list in place of it you're in a position where you can pick and choose where to push because you haven't committed much to any reads.

but you've explained a bit more now at least and tbh i wasn't thinking a lot about your previous play.

[Ydrasse]

I actually disagree a little with you here. I have stated my stronger reads. With the energy I had that's were I needed to focus. I felt like I've been 50/50 between scumhunting and having to defend myself this game. To the best of my ability I've questioned players when something has seemed off and have pushed my highest reads throughout. Claiming I had stronger reads on players I didn't would have been a lie. I do hope my last post to Walter clarified my reads a little as to the main driving force of why they landed were they did.

My hardest two reads this game are 72 and GuityLiOn. If we are blind sided it's from one of these two. Bit like I said not Day 1 Iynches for me. This in rankings of blindside is Ydrasse. Again I know you've probably been busy but I just haven't felt as strong of game from you as previous ones.

i think that, like i said, you've clarified which gives me more context as to why you're approaching this as you are. i think it's a similar issue i had last game where i don't Like It, the same way i didn't like how MT approached reading people. it seems counter-intuitive to how i like to approach things and in conjunction with the earlier qualms i had it stuck out to me.

and that's fair, i've not been putting in as much energy as i could and i'm trying to rectify it now with the free time that i have.

[Ydrasse]

my god you guys got busy.

[Ydrasse]

1) I don't understand the idea that TTJT and DP cannot be a team together based off of one post. I think that 445 is wrong because... yeah, scum would if they were bussing, lmao? If it was DP and TTJT scum it's totally possible that DP was trying to create space for him to be eased into a TTJT scumread if need be down the line and I don't get that sort of absolute this or that logic.

2) I don't agree inherently with the entirety of the case that 72 has presented on DP. I think in part that is because meta is not something I often engage in, but basing someone's alignment on level of activity compared to other games does feels like a discredit? Yeah, you can be active based on different parts of the game if it's beneficial, but I don't think that DP's activity level should be the main meat of the case against him — it should be the contents of this game and his posts.

3) That being said, I do agree still that for a good part of this game (as said in 455), DP wasn't engaging in scumhunting save for pointing out something strange and then going on his way when he was here. It has only been in these most recent of posts that I think that DP has stepped up to the plate under pressure even if some of it has given me pause, because a lot of it is motivated more so by defending himself FMPOV than anything else.

4) 72's push in this past page or two isn't great. I can understand the meat of his case from the beginning save for the meta (and even then, I can plausibly believe that town!72 is using this meta with good intentions to gamesolve) but I don't understand concepts like lynching active SE's as scummy (503) — if a SE is scummy, they're scummy. I think that 507 is somewhat discrediting too, because DP didn't immediately crucify GL and 72; in 459, he is willing to give credit to 72 as a potential town player for the meta argument, and GL as potentially overreacting.

-

@DP: You're locked in on 72 right now but can you tell me who any of your other scumreads are? I assume GL is one as well, and I don't think that you're reading 72/GL as a team right now, but I could be mistaken. In truth, I think that the fact you locked into the people voting you as your scumreads doesn't give me too much confidence? It's like there's a jump from the low-effort attempts to find scum but only in the people who suspected you. That and I think your explanations in 466 as to why you're going after who you are could be justifications as to what your usual method of play are to support your case in this game versus what they genuinely are? If that makes sense.

Also I don't like 535 in truth because it feels like it's ignoring something scummy (because I think that JT has been scummy throughout this push. I do think that gauging the reactions of confidence in everyone else isn't great, and that 527 is an effort to go for a 'safer' option despite the likelihood of those options. I don't understand the conflation of it being a high risk/high reward situation at all. That and 543 is, fmpov, an effort from JT to give himself credit for his actions despite them being something scum could do, too.).

[Ydrasse]

what the hell

[Ydrasse]

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

[Ydrasse]

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

[Ydrasse]

also jt i am sorry but i did giggle when i realized what happened because of last game.

[Ydrasse]

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

if jt is scum i don't know what motivation a scum 72 has to hammer his partner though or even switch wagons like that when he's under a lot of scrutiny because dp is going to still go after him the next day.

[Ydrasse]

i hope your night gets better jt

[Ydrasse]

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

if jt is scum i don't know what motivation a scum 72 has to hammer his partner though or even switch wagons like that when he's under a lot of scrutiny because dp is going to still go after him the next day.

If JT isn't trolling then the partner is probably GuiltyLion.

IMO both these twilight shades were ugly

I would like both of you to explain why exactly you think scum!GL and scum!72 have any kind of need to coordinate a quickhammer there. I know it may not mean much coming from me, but I believe scum quickhammers on D1 are tremendously bad play unless you're absolutely sure you've got the PR (even then, it's a gamble that can easily sink you), and I really don't see how you think TTJT was such an urgent need to remove that our hypothetical team would need to trash my good standing as well as 72's in order to secure THAT specific D1 mislynch.

i feel that dp had a lot more to lose from thunderdoming it out with 72 in this situation and i think that 72's response of "oh we can work this out you might not be scum" feels scummier than dp's conviction that 72 is scum. i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

I’m wondering when you felt this because you voted for DoctorPepper. Whether it was before or after you voted for him doesn’t change anything.

This is also a really good question that I want Ydrasse to answer.

VOTE: 72offsuit

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

i said it made you more likely because i think that thing IS super easy to coordinate, and it could be easy for you as a scum player to get away with. "not my fault that this person voted after me" sort of thing, and the timing of when you two voted made me super antsy because of how close together it was. i recognize though that you aren't inherently scum because of it though, and it could also be 72 jumping on the vote without you being involved in it. i just can't not consider it.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

VOTE: 72offsuit

[Ydrasse]

@italiano:

Spoiler:

I guess I'd be okay with a 72 lynch today, however I can't shake it that GuiltyLion was the one that broke the tie first and also pulled his vote away from DoctorPepper.

also on this, my move to TTJT was motivated primarily because I really didn't like how he was dancing around both DocPep and 72 slots, it felt like he was noncommittal about making reads or votes on either of the slots in question. Also because we really needed to consolidate on a lynch at that point and at that point I was fine with any of the three, if anything I was starting to have some doubts about DocPep

No, you're right he was, that's why I read him as such and wanted to keep an eye on him had he survived the lynch. Now we know he flipped green, so although he was suspicious by most (including me), I need to look at why it happened the way it did and see if I can make sense of it. 72 was being questioned (in post and in thought) by myself, Ydrasse, and Walter because of his and DoctorPepper's late day exchange, however I was the only one that voted for him. To be fair, I was a lot more suspicious than they were, but I especially thought Walter would vote 72, since he had been suspicious of him early in the day. And I'll have to recheck, but I don't ever remember Walter easing off or feeling better about 72 up to that point. Ydrasse was kind of touching on it, but to me it still seemed like DoctorPepper wouldn't have been her vote.

you have to understand fmpov how shady that hammer looked coming from 72, and fmpov it was a potential way for scum!72 to survive when votes started to pile up against him. it wasn't so much that jt was a threat but that it was the only option for self-preservation in that moment.

Self Preservation? He was tied at 3 with DoctorPepper and JT and everyone had voted. That's not self-preservation. And neither of the moves look good imo. Both GuiltyLion and 72 were suspicious of DoctorPepper for their own reasons and simply unvoted him to vote for a player that in both their cases were less scummy. 72 made a whole case for DoctorPepper and ended up voting for JT. GuiltyLion thought DoctorPepper was soft claiming as I did and voted him thinking him scum and then just didn't vote for him, so both moves look suspicious to me not just 72's. I have to say your self-preservation angle is strange at best and outright false at worse.

and for doctorpepper, i still had misgivings in 552. he was jumping on people who were voting him, his activity came only after the pressure on him started, and he was ignoring things that i found weird to ignore in lieu of tunneling the people who were after him. and when i came back, jt was already hammered and i was reading in the context of 72 doing that. seeing 72 slap down a vote and then go "oops" made me realize how 72 had already tried to get out of going toe to toe with dp and as i stated, i thought that him doing that could've been a way to avoid getting lynched as scum. my read of dp flipped pretty fast after that.

Why didn't you mention it then? I know your vote was already there and it didn't matter because TTJT was already hammered.

how is saying that it's self preservation false? fmpov, scum!72 sees that one of the wagons (that he was first upon) is dying out, leaving him competing with another one. one of the safety options is gone and he has to make sure that he as scum is not lynched, so he throws down a hammer onto jt and claims it's an accident so that things cannot be turned back onto him.

especially given the fact that, like i said, dp at that point was adamant about it being either dp or 72. a scum!72 realizes that in the event that it's between him and dp, and if dp goes down first there's a high chance the town focuses in on him the next day. that, or he gets voted off that day (meaning day 1) outright. so instead, it's better to turn the hammer onto someone outside of those two so he doesn't have to continue dealing with the pressure of dp's tunneling and insistence it's between them two. it's another option that, from his pov, could present greater odds of getting through the day.

and which part didn't i mention then? do you mean why didn't i mention my misgivings when it came to dp, or the fact that i thought his content had improved? the former i feel can be seen in that my vote was STILL on dp for a reason — he had gotten townier, but it isn't outside a realm of possibility that he was still scum to me given the fact of where his suspicions rested. a lot of this wasn't mentioned because i was gone from the time after i had asked dp some stuff and when 72 was hammered, and the hammer itself made me reconsider a lot of things at eod.

Spoiler:

what the hell

What does this mean? What are you talking about?

i think that dp became townier the longer it went on. 568 in particular is a good representation of this thought process.

And yet you still voted for him.

i don't know if a scum!72 would hammer like that and try to pretend it was fake/accidental though, because that seems dumb as hell to do.

Okay, but to be fair we are acting as if scum!72 would be cool, calm, and collected. He could have very well made a mistake under pressure. We say it's dumb because we're looking at it from a town perspective but as scum and being on edge, it could have very well been a slip up. At best he is just a townie who made a major mistake, but I think either way he should be the lynch today.

even in that post, i don't get why he called the vote itself empty. also that, and 121 where he states that he's fine keeping his vote on italiano, but he can imagine a world where his actions are towny, and he also agrees with your wagon as well and supports it from a distance. so he's pretty low in my poe. the two other people who i consider pretty low in it are voting him though which... . i think there's at least one scum in {italiano, jt, owen}.

What are you feeling now? I know this is old, but you have iso'd GuiltyLion & Walter. Have you done anyone else yet?

if 72 is scum the mishammer was definitely to get out of the 1v1 with dp.

Hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't this more reason for you not to have voted DoctorPepper?

also i feel that if 72 is scum too gl just became a lot more of a likely partner and they could have coordinated that vote on a townie!jt.

Do you feel more strong, equal, or less about this after the JT flip?

To me doctor pepper and jt are on two different sides where one is town vs one being scum.

This is interesting. Now with the JT flip, do you still feel this way?

Guilty Lion, in post 556 you mentioned:

"I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what I think the associative between TTJT and DocPep is, whether it's T-S in either direction or S-S. I can find evidence a few different ways but nothing that feels conclusive to me, and assuming there's scum involved then there's likely some intentional manipulation being attempted as well."

Two questions:

1) Why was there no mention of T-T?
2) How do you feel now? Now that JT flipped townie? Is DoctorPepper the Scum?

1) i said what the hell because i came back to 72 claiming that he hadn't seen the vote on dp at all. it was a mess to come back to, lmfao.

2) yes. i voted for him when i thought he was scummy, and my vote stayed there after because despite improvements i still thought there was a chance dp could be scum.

3) yeah, that's fair, which is why my vote is on 72 as it is. in context with everything else it doesn't seem like it was an accidental vote given how much 72 benefited from it in that moment, but i have to consider all the possibilities.

4) ii still have some suspicions that are lingering in that pool i presented. i haven't gotten around to iso'ing either of you yet. i'm going to do it sometime during this day. you're not as high on my scumread list though, after that fiasco in d1.

for owen i have to reread, because i don't remember him ever making a push on me and i don't understand why he's saying that i'm one of two required partners for 72, and instead saying that you brought up a good point and then not offering his own opinions from the reread that he did. his response to guiltylion in 695 seems deflective of the pressure put onto him imo without giving reasons.

5) like i said, the 72 hammer made me rethink a lot of things pretty quickly.

-

what about you? i know you posted a reads list in 541, but i assume that's changed at this point?

[Ydrasse]

@72: i don't think you can say that DP cannot pose a threat to you simply because he voted — he can continue to push onto you, engage with you, etc etc and convince other people similarly to vote against you. he had said it pretty clearly that he wanted it to be him or you, and thus he wasn't going to relent fmpov in pushing on you.

also in that post 710 i was referring to the DP wagon dying out, not the JT one.

@owen: i don't understand how my stance isn't coherent? DP's presence and content improved as the day goes on but not so much where i am sold on him not being scum. 72's hammer gives me a whole new perspective on their 1v1. i don't see these two things as exclusive concepts, i guess?

maybe it's the choice of saying "townier and townier" because that probably does imply a certain amount of strength to it? post-hammer i was just trying to type out my thoughts then and there so the thread didn't get locked midway through a post.

---

mod: v/la until 7/5

[Ydrasse]

sorry, i haven’t been around a lot because of vacation. i’ll be back soon!

however, general thoughts on the game state is that scum is benefitting regardless of 72’s alignment from the situation. town!72 being eliminated is good for scum for obvious reasons but also that i feel the effort to scumhunt has stagnated to some degree...? 72’s elimination feels like an inevitability and allows the scum team to get by without much scrutiny when the chopping block is already filled for the day.

as scum!72, the benefit is lessened by virtue of scum getting eliminated, but i feel that there’s an equal chance that his partner would be on or off the wagon. being on it doesn’t seem so bad when the town as a collective seems dead set on eliminating him and it’s hust another vote to the decided elimination. off it it’s simple to pass off not wanting their partner as “oh i didn’t wanna hammer him!” and then letting things drag out — i don’t feel that a scum player right now would feel hammering 72 is an option, until everyone is content with the amount of scumhunting done.

however, the lack of a claim for 72 thus far... confuses me? at least, from the perspective of 72 being scum i don’t see any reason for 72 not to have claimed pr for the sake of his partner before like, self-hammering or something? i don’t get what the point of dragging out the day so far when it just gives the town time to hunt for his partner in this situation. or he could say he’s VT and hope the town is like “lol okay then” and hammers. it seems counter-intuitive to setting up a winning gamestate for his partner.

i don’t think that any convincing argument has been made by 72 fmpov to defend his actions other than saying it was an accident and us having to take that, as well as some attempts to push/scumhunt which to me feel lackluster and an effort to deflect? i guess that could be the inevitable feeling that comes with a ton of votes suddenly on you.

so @everyone: what do you think 72 is trying to accomplish right now? i think that the most obvious answer is survival but what does his partner benefit from it if he’s scum?

as i stand right now, my do not eliminate pool is currently {doctorpepper, guiltylion, walter} and my elimination pool is {72, mini, owen, italiano}.

[Ydrasse]

as an aside, 72, i’m really sorry that you stopped having fun this game regardless of alignment. :c

[Ydrasse]

i touched upon 72's lack of pr claim earlier because i had similar thoughts about it not doing anything to help a partner in 802 — but like, at this point the ship had long sailed to claim pr. i'm similarly wary of the VT claim because fmpov it is the only option for a scum 72 to do right now that could contribute to any survival.

like, it feels... last effort to me, sort of? like at this point 72 admits himself that he's lost steam in this game and i can't blame him for that, but all together i don't know if that is a town player who is frustrated they're getting miseliminated or a scum player getting eliminated for a suboptimal play.

@GL: you seemed pretty adamant that 72 was scum and needed to be eliminated, so is the claim the only thing right now that's making you think 72 is town? in truth it looks a bit odd that you're backing off of the elimination only as someone else has begun to support 72's push against you, but i dunno if that's the timing of coming back or not.

[Ydrasse]

it seems like in his day 2 iso, doctorpepper mainly concerned himself with 72 and that elimination. the only people mentioned by name other than guiltylion are mini and uno in

796

as a potential scumteam. however, i think that if it was either of these two he might have given us more indication in his iso as to which he had been jk on?

however, i think that it's a possibility that doctorpepper was on walter as the jk? in 675 he indicates a post as bad which is... about as much as i can gather as an indication when it came to end of day. that, or he was on one of myself/italiano given that we were in his "do not eliminate" pile (483) and he seemed to have those same sentiments by the end of the day. i don't think anyone else would've been his choice — 72, in theory because dp was convinced 72 was mafia, but given the lack of a nightkill i don't think it was 72. it would be a really bad move for a mafia team to try and kill him given the end of day 1.

i don't think it's the case where both the jailkeeper and mafia team failed to submit actions or chose not to, though.

now that both prs are out though, i want to ask.

@italiano:

why did you bold the word find in post 75?

@walter:

why did you point out this fact in post 271? also, who else do you think is scum currently?

@mini:

where is your head at right now? i have no clue what you're thinking honestly, what your reads are, or anything. i just want something from you to know what the heck you're thinking.

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: MiniMegabyte

[Ydrasse]

good game everyone! i honestly had a lot of fun for my first mafia game, ty for the experience!

[Ydrasse]

the night actions this game were also a mess in the best way possible

[Ydrasse]

ty

well, night one i was going to carry out the kill, but it didn't go through because i was jailkept by doctorpepper. however, guiltylion ALSO tracked me that night, but because i was jailkept i didn't go anywhere, and thus guiltylion got the result of me not taking any action. basically, i would've been caught out night one if it wasn't for all of that happening.