Newbie 2064 - (GG)

[NinjaStore]

VOTE: orctin He's being suspiciously helpful...

[NinjaStore]

I played a few times on SA, and I'm not all that familiar with how things are different here. But I haven't played any mafia in a few years.

[NinjaStore]

Micc taking orctin to E-2 this early on day 1, when he already has two joke votes, is fishy. All it would take to eliminate orctin at this point is one inexperienced player following his example and one other scum vote. I'm not going to put a third vote on Micc so early when barely any discussion has happened yet, but he looks the scummiest to me so far.

UNVOTE: orctin

[NinjaStore]

In this scenario, wouldn’t you have just found scum? You did confidently name someone scum without any clarifier.

Are you talking about my joke vote on orctin? The game had barely started.

[NinjaStore]

Micc taking orctin to E-2 this early on day 1, when he already has two joke votes, is fishy. All it would take to eliminate orctin at this point is one inexperienced player following his example and one other scum vote.

I’m going to stop you right there, and ask you to think about what our goal as a Town is and how we win the game.

In this scenario, wouldn’t you have just found scum? You did confidently name someone scum without any clarifier. Sure, its trading town lives for scum, but it’s a good trade in the grand scheme of things, especially if any Town PRs survive the exchange.

I don’t think it’s strong play to be worried about E-2 wagons in a game of this size. As long as everyone has the understanding that Town never hammers without a claim under any circumstance, nothing can go wrong.

This entire post is scummy. It sounds like you're advocating for eliminating someone at random and that it will probably work out.

[NinjaStore]

Looks like I'll be going V/LA from now until sometime on Sunday the 23rd. A camping trip that was supposedly canceled got un-canceled.

I'm not going to leave a vote on anyone in the meantime. So far, Micc looks the scummiest to me for reasons I've already mentioned. dsjstr is going to look scummier the longer they go without posting. Hopefully they start being active soon. I don't have reads on anyone else yet.

See you guys in a few days, assuming I'm still alive.

[NinjaStore]

I'm back online. Still gonna be a bit busy today but I'll catch up on the thread probably sometime tonight.

[NinjaStore]

I don't like Dum's little gambit there. It reads like scum trying to look like he's doing something useful while giving himself an easy target. His "Yes, please answer" in #119 feels like he's playing a part.

Orctin had already made it pretty clear that he knew he wasn't hammering with that vote, and both Micc and Dum continued quizzing him about it anyway. Micc also posted twice without mentioning that Dum's vote count was off, then immediately brought it up after Orctin cast his vote. Almost as if both he and Dum were waiting for someone to take the bait and cast a vote.

Micc, why did you only bring up the vote count at #112 and not sooner?

[NinjaStore]

Micc, why did you only bring up the vote count at #112 and not sooner?

Waiting for an answer on this. In the meantime,

VOTE: Micc

[NinjaStore]

Wow, thing's have gotten a bit more hostile since I was last here.
What I've gathered from everyone's posts is that humaneatingmonkey seems to have a tendency to post things that will get people to react. This likely means he's town since the only reason you'd need to do that is to get a better read on people, but it is possible he's scum doing it for any number of reasons.
Jackson on the other hand has me feeling wary. They spent most of the first two days lurking and then suddenly began posting a ton. This in and of itself isn't necessarily a scum move, they could simply be focusing on getting a read on people, however if you combine that with the fact that they're very quick to defend Micc who's been the primary suspect thus far and them seemingly trying to make us turn on each other, it does read as somewhat concerning. Not outright scummy in my eyes, bit definitely someone to keep an eye on.
On the topic of Micc, their arguments this far have been pretty weak, mostly consisting of "that's a rookie mistake, you'll figure it out with experience" whuch seems to be a good to deflect an argument from a new player without having to actually provide a decent reasoning.

That said, I'm getting the feeling that Micc either isn't scum or, if he is, he's not the one to be most concerned about.

Salsabil got awfully defensive when Jackson called her out, moreso than I think was warranted. She's also kept her posts incredibly brief and without much substance. These things could be either poorly disguised scum behavior or simple newbie jitters and I'm not 100% sure which rn.
Orctin has been mostly helpful and he seems to be able to keep a cool head under pressure (a useful but potentially dangerous trait). He seems very similar to me in that we're both focused more on getting a read and breaking down arguments logically than simply voting. My gut tells me he's town, but I can't deny the possibility that he's simply very good at playing the long game for a mafia win.
As for everyone else I don't have a good enough read to say anything about them at this point.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said
UNVOTE: Micc

Why should we not be concerned about Micc if he's scum? We don't need to look for the "more dangerous" scum. Getting a kill on either scum on day 1 would put us in a great position.

[NinjaStore]

After going back through the thread, I think the scum is likely some combination of micc, dum, and navigatorv. Most likely dum and navigatorv.

100

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said
UNVOTE: Micc

Nav says Micc is scummy but only 3rd most scummy. Could be an attempt to distance themselves from Micc while still discouraging a wagon on him.

114

(or maybe im just a big sheep, but lets not talk about that)

I already talked earlier about how Dum and Micc look like they could have both been collaborating in Dum's trap. This quote could be used as an easy excuse for why they are behaving that way.

121
Nav defends Dum's trap, then says

There's the possibility that Micc and Dum are scum trying to protect each other, but it's just as likely that they could be town, so frustratingly enough this did little to change my mind about the current circumstances; there's just too many possibilities with little to weigh things in anyone's favor.

122

I wont deny the possibility of Micc having me sheeped, but for now, even IF orctin KNEW they werent hammering, i still find it sus they hopped back into the wagon right after i voted. My point remains for now

Dum uses the sheep excuse again.

129
Nav writes a long, overly defensive post, then tacks on at the end that they don't mind if they're lynched. If they don't mind, why be so defensive?

As for why I haven't voted anyone else despite being able to rank my suspicions, I don't particularly care about backlash. Even if I get eliminated for a view I wouldn't have a problem as long as it helped town win later.

137
Nav votes Dum, then says

As for if I'm afraid to be lynched, no, feel free to vote for me if that's what you want. I'm still going to work on reading people regardless and if I get eliminated I get eliminated. Obviously I'd prefer that not to be the case, hence me trying to be more cautious especially early on, but I have no qualms if it does happen.

Again Nav says they don't mind being lynched.

146

Not much of anything. I'm cautious by nature (thanks anxiety), but my goal is victory. Even if I'm eliminated, town could still win, so even if I can't contribute, I can still hold out hope that that's the case. Again, I'd definitely prefer to stay in so I can help with that, but I'm not concerned if I don't.

Again with the "I don't mind if I'm lynched." This is a way to make yourself look like you want the town to win without actually doing anything to help find scum.

155

Greetings. I re-read the posts, including your chat with jack, and yes, i missed that. Sorry if i came off as very agressive. And its not that you are the "only person i think is town" you are the only perosn i would bet on being town. I still have others on the "not quite town reads" zone where im not really confortable betting on it yet.

Dum has been reading navigatorv as town despite everything above.

157

Admittedly, my wording on that could've been better. If you don't mind me asking (assuming this doesn't get drowned out by too many posts by the time you can answer) what specifically have you noticed about my playstyle that makes you willing to bet on me being town?

This could be a setup for Dum to say something to make Nav look good, if they are scumbuddies.

Given all this, I'm changing my vote to navigatorv.

VOTE: navigatorv

[NinjaStore]

That's quite a bit of analysis, navigatorv. It's a lot to process and cross reference with earlier posts, but I'll address this part for now.

On Salsabil Faria and JamesTheNames:

Since they share the same slot, I'll be covering both together since I feel like their similarities can tell us more about their role than an individual analysis.
Salsa's initial post was a simple vote with little valid reasoning behind it, nothing really suspect their since we were still in the RVS stage. She later swapped to Micc for finding his argument too much of a stretch (either scum trying to add to a wagon that might actually keep momentum or a townie who felt that was scum-indicative).
She posted a reply to one of my counterarguments to Micc that was simply her giving me "town points". Seems like she was trying to appear to be contributing (and possibly pocket me/help strengthen her own vote) without actually doing so in any meaningful capacity.
When Jackson pointed this out, she responded with some sarcasm (that feels very passive aggressive to me) before proceeding to her counterargument, which, while petty, isn't necessarily AI on its own.
Micc asked her what her response to one of my posts that seemed to vindicate him somewhat was, but got no response as she quit shortly after. She did admit to having exams so it's entirely possible that those were simply taking up too much time or it could be that she wasn't able to keep up with the pressure of her role and needed to hand it off. Since she's no longer here we can only speculate, but again, I'd like to believe that most people wouldn't make up irl issues to avoid losing a game.
That brings us to James who immediately began with a gut feeling read list and then did his best to stop the fight between HEM and myself. These actions could be town but could just as easily be scum pretending to be town.
He then posted a much longer analysis that I don't entirely understand certain points of:
-His read on orctin lists a number of posts that should've affected orctin's reads supposedly, but upon examining them myself I don't really see how they conflict with what orctin posted.
-His read on Dum has him begin with saying he understood the reason for Dum's gambit, but then he got confused as to why he voted for Micc during it (despite voting for Micc literally being the key point of the trap, without which it wouldn't have worked in any capacity).
-His read on Jackson feels like a "why are you targeting my slot?" post that would only work if Jackson hadn't already explained their reasoning as to why they didn't vote Dum instead.
-

Asked NinjaStore to post more despite NinjaStore literally being camping for most of the game thus far which I don't get, especially with how many others have gone long periods without saying anything.

After this Jackson pointed out a very important detail (that he made no comment about them voting for his slot) which he responded to by more or less dodging the question and asking why Jackson hadn't voted for me or Dum instead. He then proceeded to vote for them which doesn't seem like it was based on actual logic and more like a revenge vote since he couldn't convince them to target someone else.
Their feud continued for some time, but eventually James stopped responding (not sure if it was due to being unable to counterargue or simply feeling like things were going nowhere, both seem entirely possible).
Fizz Raab then took issue with his read on her and HEM (which I went into detail on in her analysis), but he managed to shut down her argument using some fairly decent logic (though there is some issue with HEM's posting, it's not quite as simple as Fizz made it out to be).

James' question was:

Please post more. Why didn't you put Dum on E-2 in 165? Why didn't you vote for Micc after your 44?

I thought it was a dumb question so I didn't bother answering. I probably should have pointed that out at the time. The answer to James' second question should have been obvious. I had already made it pretty clear that I wasn't willing to put anyone at E-2 so early in day 1.

I didn't cast a vote in 165 because I was waiting to see what Micc would have to say and hadn't decided who was scummier between Micc and Dum yet. Casting a vote for one of them at that time anyway would have probably been a good idea in retrospect. I should be more proactive with my voting rather than hanging back. I eventually did put a vote on Micc since he didn't answer.

Bothering to put in all this analysis work in the first place does earn you some town points. It doesn't exonerate you, but I'm switching votes to a higher priority scum read for now.

UNVOTE: navigatorv
VOTE: Micc

[NinjaStore]

What I can do though is put my money where my mouth is. I have a proposition that I'd like to make. I understand if you don't want to risk potentially falling into a mafia trap, so I'll stay silent on it if you'd prefer not to hear it, but if you're willing to hear me out, I'd gladly share, even if the consensus turns out to be a "no".

I'm curious. Shoot.

[NinjaStore]

I've caught up on reading the recent activity but still need to parse it a bit. As for questions directed at me:

What does SA stand for? I also played on a SA, wondering if it's the same one

First thing, this one is just entirely out of curiosity. What don't you like about early E-2s?

A few years ago I played a few games on Something Awful. They were usually larger games with 24-48 hour days. I'm trying to adjust to much longer days, and figured we're best off playing out most of the time limit we have so enough discussion can happen to get reads on people. Putting someone at E-2 when barely any of that time has elapsed yet and we're still in a semi-joke phase seemed dangerous to me - it could have ended the day very early and denied us information. Seems like something scum would want to happen.

Second thing, can you point out between 241 and 271 what post or argument made you switch from Nav to Micc?

It was simply because Nav made an effortpost analyzing people in a lot of detail. We're supposed to be scumhunting, after all. Micc and Dum were already on my radar, and it was a tossup which one to put a vote on. I went with Micc since I still don't like his early E-2 vote.

VOTE: orctin He's being suspiciously helpful...

Eh? He's posted two jokes?

That was my initial joke vote with appropriately flimsy justification. I

was

hoping that having some people at two votes would get some discussion going. I wasn't expecting anyone to drop a third vote on Orctin so quickly, so it got my attention when Micc did that.

[NinjaStore]

navigatorv is reading more townish at this point.

[NinjaStore]

Since HEM is targeting Fizz I looked back through both of their posts.

I'm reading HEM as town. He has been asking a lot of direct questions since the very early game, which gets people talking. A few people have criticized him for having short posts, but his posts generally do something to advance the game. If anyone thinks a specific post of his lacks detail, you can always ask him to clarify.

Fizz focuses heavily on why people read her as scum and not a whole lot else.

I'm sorry, how does overexplaining stuff this class as a scum move? I think voting for me over this is absolotely ridiclilous. What's wrong with overexplaining something? Please tell me.

So what if I am. It still doesn't classify as a scum move and a ridiclious reason to vote me.

I want to know why I'm being scum when the humaneatingmonkey is playing really scummy. Half of the time, humaneatingmonkey hasn't really put in much contribution other than saying like this and that post with no logical points made. How is that not being scum and my long posts are? Please people, make some sense here. So yes you are being scum with your unhelpful advice.

And you are wrong if you think I'm scum when I've been way more helpful than HumanEatingMonkey has. Tell me what is alright with HumanEatingMonkey doing short posts without any information or real contribution to the game? Please explain your thoughts because I rather give out full details with my overexplaining things than having one post liners which is ridiclious to think that's fun when really, it does absolutely nothing to help with this game. Are you scum I wonder as well if your sticking up for someone being clear on likes and dislike posts and one liners. How is that not suspious to you?

Ugh, being placed as scum for no reason whatsoever is pretty stupid if you ask me with no clear evidence of my posts at all. What do I see is scum is someone doing one line posts without any contribution and it seems like the only time he has made more than one line posts is when I called humaneatingmonkey on it. Let's see you do more than that dude. Obviously, I don't see Jackson scum at all with his helpful posts. I don't know if you noticed humaneatingmonkey, but I'm not good at understanding posts sometimes. It takes me a while to fully get it. I have nobody else apart from you that speaks out as scum just at this minute. I have to go through all the posts to clarify a few more posts that aren't scum posts to me.

Hm this post right here changes everything. Why would you admit about everyone eliminating you just because you think people will agree on you being scum. But it's funny you claim me as scum when you have no evidence of it. This right here speaks complete volumes with how nobody is speaking scum from this post and even hinting if you are scum. I don't know why you're coming out with this post that isn't something any player would say. So maybe I'll put you in the scum list as well just from this post alone.

And two posts scumreading HEM for having short posts:

For one people voting without a reason for it. People who just do short posts without a reasoning for it. I think this is one dumb vote on your part. Why is the guy your defending classifies as town?

This is the reason why I'm reading you as scum right now, more than who I voted at this point because of your one-line spam posts and I have no idea why you're being cleared as town from a few people, despite the activity. It's easy to be active when you only do one-line posts that you haven't helped anybody with your posts at all. Just asking questions when really I want to know why you aren't putting more effort into posting more than just one-liners. Because in the last game I played, I did catch a scum player by their one-line posts and were labelled with that. Why would I think differently with you?

UNVOTE: Micc

VOTE: humaneatingmonkey

[NinjaStore]

What I can do though is put my money where my mouth is. I have a proposition that I'd like to make. I understand if you don't want to risk potentially falling into a mafia trap, so I'll stay silent on it if you'd prefer not to hear it, but if you're willing to hear me out, I'd gladly share, even if the consensus turns out to be a "no".

I'm curious. Shoot.

So we have about 3 days until the deadline for voting. While it seems like things have been narrowed down, we still don't have a consensus on who to vote for. My proposition is this: if we can't narrow it down so that the majority of town agrees on one person by 12 hours before the deadline, everyone eliminates me. Even though you wouldn't be eliminating scum, you'd still have a higher chance of finding scum on later days which is still a net gain.
Now obviously if I'm scum I could use this opportunity to try and convince everyone to vote for one of the three prime suspects, so if town agrees to this, I'll stop posting unless someone specifically requests a response from me.

Hm this post right here changes everything.

Why would you admit about everyone eliminating you just because you think people will agree on you being scum. But it's funny you claim me as scum when you have no evidence of it. This right here speaks complete volumes with how nobody is speaking scum from this post and even hinting if you are scum. I don't know why you're coming out with this post that isn't something any player would say. So maybe I'll put you in the scum list as well just from this post alone.

The part in green is a weird thing to say. Feels like acting.

[NinjaStore]

navigatorv is reading more townish at this point.

This is the general town conscience at this point, is there a reason you're saying this now?

Some gut. He seems to be putting in a real effort to read people. Some of his actions that I focused on earlier seem to just be due to his personality. That's been made clearer now. And he brought up that I had confirmation bias when going through possible connections between him, Micc, and Dum, which is probably true.

[NinjaStore]

I can't find the post but someone mentioned earlier than eliminating Fizz wouldn't provide us with much info, and I agree.

[NinjaStore]

If fizz isn't scum, she's a very unhelpful town, barely talking about anything other than not being scum.

[NinjaStore]

Fizz, if you're not scum, convince us who is.

[NinjaStore]

Micc feels like he's town.

You made this read very early. Why was that?

[NinjaStore]

Btw, if Fizz flips red, his partner definitely bussed.

You think so?
If Jackson Hammers
Those who voted for Fizz Raab:
JacksonVirgo, humaneatingmonkey, navigatorv, JohnnyFarrar, orctin
Those who did not:
JamesTheNames, Dum, NinjaStore

If Fizz flips red I'm voting NinjaStore
397, 401, 404 and 405. Based off of these, and the fact at the time these were made Fizz Raab was at E-2. Surely NinjaStore would have voted here? NinjaStore made a claim in 397, which, I personally would consider as something to give scum vibes. 401 and 405 look like NinjaStore is trying to allow Fizz Raab to excuse themselves, then NinjaStore would try to defend them. This is only if Fizz Raab would flip red.

401 is why I hadn't voted him yet.

[NinjaStore]

I'm not all that familiar with how things are done on this site. Does it matter whether Dum stated intent to hammer first?

[NinjaStore]

A hammer is a hammer, regardless of intent. Intent to hammer are just given as a warning to the person in E-1 to give them chance to claim or defend.

Noted.

[NinjaStore]

Just did a full re-read.

[NinjaStore]

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[NinjaStore]

JV has already been discussed a lot, but here are some early posts that stand out.

227 228

JV's tone is interesting. They emphasize that they are making reads rather than talking about the people they are reading.

Then there's this post:

one last thing JV, your sig says you're a tactical lurker. what does it mean?

Sometimes I don't post and just read the thread for a small while in a tactical way. For example, if I feel like I am tunneling someone too hard I step back and just watch for a while to see what happens without my intervention etc. More reasons too but that's the way I feel is the best explanation.

I also do it as scum

so it's not anything to read me on

JV drops this subtle "I'm town" instead of just saying "I play this way as both town and scum."

[NinjaStore]

And JV has placed an odd amount of emphasis on this being the normal way they play.

[NinjaStore]

I'm not sure how much we can read from the night kill, but I think James may be on to something with JV-Dum being a pair, and James was spared.

[NinjaStore]

You say I didnt say that I do it as both alignments when I clearly did.

The interesting part is how you phrased it.

[NinjaStore]

JV has already been discussed a lot, but here are some early posts that stand out.

227 228

JV's tone is interesting. They emphasize that they are making reads rather than talking about the people they are reading.

Then there's this post:

one last thing JV, your sig says you're a tactical lurker. what does it mean?

Sometimes I don't post and just read the thread for a small while in a tactical way. For example, if I feel like I am tunneling someone too hard I step back and just watch for a while to see what happens without my intervention etc. More reasons too but that's the way I feel is the best explanation.

I also do it as scum

so it's not anything to read me on

JV drops this subtle "I'm town" instead of just saying "I play this way as both town and scum."

You only noticed this now? Even if I'm suspicious about Jackson I don't quite get this.

Yeah. Funny as it might sound, I feel more clear-headed tonight than I was most of last week, and I was able to process a full re-read a lot better.

[NinjaStore]

You say I didnt say that I do it as both alignments when I clearly did.

The interesting part is how you phrased it.

Oh that's what you meant.

You expect me, if I were Town, to not actively think I am town and post accordingly? If you're saying I am hinting at being Town because I am scum, answer why I would not say that as Town.

I'm thinking back to how other players have phrased similar claims in other games offsite. It could be a red herring, but it stood out to me.

[NinjaStore]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

Are you referring to him saying we should assume Mafia is hunting PRs? If that's the case, I can see the potential, but it definitely needs a bit more than that to get me on the wagon since that just seems to be a decent assumption to make since they're the biggest threat to scum and

they don't have to worry about sussing out who's town like we do them.

Not to say the possibility isn't there, but it definitely doesn't say anything definitive imo

JV has already been discussed a lot, but here are some early posts that stand out.

227 228

JV's tone is interesting. They emphasize that they are making reads rather than talking about the people they are reading.

Then there's this post:

one last thing JV, your sig says you're a tactical lurker. what does it mean?

Sometimes I don't post and just read the thread for a small while in a tactical way. For example, if I feel like I am tunneling someone too hard I step back and just watch for a while to see what happens without my intervention etc. More reasons too but that's the way I feel is the best explanation.

I also do it as scum

so it's not anything to read me on

JV drops this subtle "I'm town" instead of just saying "I play this way as both town and scum."

I'm curious how Ninja feels about what is highlighted in blue.

What about it? Are you asking me to compare the two?

[NinjaStore]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

[NinjaStore]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

Yes it's policy. Anti-town play should be punished. And that post was specifically to avoid any scum hammers itself, not particularly to scum-read

That still doesn't address why you said an early hammer would be from scum.

[NinjaStore]

Those are definitely some great starting points for analysis orctin.
Going by general vibe, Micc definitely seems the most outwardly antagonistic. Not sure if that's a sign of him being Mafia or just an aggressive playstyle; both seem equally likely at this point. I'm very curious to see his reaction to being at E-1.
That said, while we do need to figure out who to eliminate today, this is a 2 Mafia game, so we do need to consider who might be a secondary guess after our primary choice. Not to say that we should focus all our efforts on that (chasing two hares and all that), but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Another thing as well might be to change our thinking style. While we can definitely say that we're suspicious of several people, one thing we could consider is trying to figure out who's pro-Town. I will admit there is a potential flaw there in that it might help Mafia decide on a target so it might be best to keep quiet to ourselves about our thoughts on that front for the time being, I just thought it might help make analyzing easier.

I get a weird vibe from how nav overexplains town strat in this post.

[NinjaStore]

An early day will not happen if Town does not vote until they catch up. I will say this in a seperate post after this to make it more clear. We will force policy eliminate anybody that hammers early, this is without fail we will do this. Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum. It's early days so we can easily afford a 1 for 1 (a town death for a scum death). I hope this helps explain why an early hammer is unlikely to happen, and without votes nobody will be given the pressure needed for us to solve with.

A question for everyone:

Is it actually normal on MS to have a policy like this?

Regardless, this post doesn't add up.

JacksonVirgo: If such a policy is in place, why do you think an early hammer would necessarily come from scum? I don't see why a scum would willingly suicide that early in the game.

Yes it's policy. Anti-town play should be punished. And that post was specifically to avoid any scum hammers itself, not particularly to scum-read

That still doesn't address why you said an early hammer would be from scum.

You should learn to read. By stating that, scum would not hammer if they actively knew they would be eliminated. Scum would not hammer if they knew they would be eliminated the next day, therefore an early hammer D1 would come from Town, this also avoided the chance of an quick-elimination from either alignment as nobody "wants" to die. It was a *gambit* but it is now going to be enforced properly now that I've explained it and can no longer town-read from it.

That's not what you said.

"Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum."

[NinjaStore]

What was the gambit?

[NinjaStore]

Yes. How is explaining a policy and saying "Enforcing it like this will make sure nobody, not even scum will hammer and if a hammer does happen it will be from scum" a gambit? What were you hoping to accomplish?

[NinjaStore]

It's not a very effective gambit when you phrase it like that.

[NinjaStore]

That nav quote doesn't give me the same "trying to look like town" vibes as what JV said. The more concerning nav quote is the one I linked last page: 539

[NinjaStore]

Why not?

Vibes.

Also you have an issue

now

with 65 11 days after it was made? Excluding the 2 days for the night phase you had 9 days to comment on that.
I don't think either of your reads here are genuine NinjaStore.

I noticed things I hadn't earlier. The context of one day kill and one night kill put a re-read in a new light. Better to point them out now than ignore them.

[NinjaStore]

Jackson - at this point i'm looking at changing my opinion of him - I played game with him prior to this so had bit of bias to liking the player - but the frustration tactic day 1 to back off the attacks on themselves then the looking to opt out make me think we have a scum who basically have given up defending themselves now

Dum - I've been leary about Dum since game started - the whole Hammer trap he tried to play was just a bad play, and moreso when i had clearly made my position known before then and it was obvious there was no trap as the votes had been posted - this was a weak attempt to make me appear as if i was just trying to do something that i had already shown not to do - end day early.

HEM - aggressive player, just goes right out after people, attacking and going after reads which seem to be singular minded but strong played in your positions. If i were to look for scum tells here i would have to put HEM and James together in a pairing where they counter each other at points to keep the unpaired appearance. I would think the quick Voting HEM does is also bad, as could be a scum tell to be the early person on a vote, see if it hold ground by trying to get others to go along with it and so as to not appear as a late comer to the train.

James - for the most part i read as town, I like his questioning nature to look at things first to form an opinion. I haven't seen a pairing yet with him but that would basically make him a good pairing with myself if i were looking at scum read pair from outside the looking glass.

Nav/Ninja - Nav -

i think here's a high likelyhood of pushing the scum look on a player gameplay

, that again i was biased to as i played with before (JV), to push him to that breaking point some people have. Nav is playing the excellent townie role, and have most people believing he's town, which if most people think one thing it's the job of the last person to ask if it's true, i wonder if there is perhaps a great scum player lurking here. Ninja - This the Ying to Nav's Yang - Ninja is thoughtful - looking at Both HEM and JV and trying to read between the lines of the two of them looking for those clues others might of missed. But overall i think Nav/Ninja seem to both fit in the same mold here. I would think if JV flips Town - one of the two of them is scum.

I don't really understand what you mean in the green part. Could you clarify?

[NinjaStore]

Jackson - at this point i'm looking at changing my opinion of him - I played game with him prior to this so had bit of bias to liking the player - but the frustration tactic day 1 to back off the attacks on themselves then the looking to opt out make me think we have a scum who basically have given up defending themselves now

Dum - I've been leary about Dum since game started - the whole Hammer trap he tried to play was just a bad play, and moreso when i had clearly made my position known before then and it was obvious there was no trap as the votes had been posted - this was a weak attempt to make me appear as if i was just trying to do something that i had already shown not to do - end day early.

HEM - aggressive player, just goes right out after people, attacking and going after reads which seem to be singular minded but strong played in your positions.

If i were to look for scum tells here i would have to put HEM and James together in a pairing where they counter each other at points to keep the unpaired appearance.

I would think the quick Voting HEM does is also bad, as could be a scum tell to be the early person on a vote, see if it hold ground by trying to get others to go along with it and so as to not appear as a late comer to the train.

James - for the most part i read as town, I like his questioning nature to look at things first to form an opinion.

I haven't seen a pairing yet with him

but that would basically make him a good pairing with myself if i were looking at scum read pair from outside the looking glass.

Nav/Ninja - Nav - i think here's a high likelyhood of pushing the scum look on a player gameplay, that again i was biased to as i played with before (JV), to push him to that breaking point some people have. Nav is playing the excellent townie role, and have most people believing he's town, which if most people think one thing it's the job of the last person to ask if it's true, i wonder if there is perhaps a great scum player lurking here. Ninja - This the Ying to Nav's Yang - Ninja is thoughtful - looking at Both HEM and JV and trying to read between the lines of the two of them looking for those clues others might of missed. But overall i think Nav/Ninja seem to both fit in the same mold here. I would think if JV flips Town - one of the two of them is scum.

Second, can anyone else tell me the huge, glaring problem with this reads list?

That part?

[NinjaStore]

And thanks Cat and Ninja - didn't even realize - I'm not keeping a note sheet or anything - just playing off day to day chat and game, and trying to add some pairing thoughts to expand reads more than just one player - so i'm not sitting there over analyzing what i post - i just type and post what flows from fingers to keyboard

That doesn't explain very well having a pairing for James one moment and then not having it the next. If you had been keeping notes on each player and pasted them into the same post, I could see accidentally posting outdated information. But you say you're posting more free-flowing thoughts. That's awfully quick to forget what you were just writing earlier in the same post.

[NinjaStore]

Sorry for the absence, been busy. I'll try to get caught up tonight.

[NinjaStore]

I haven't posted a proper reads list all game yet and it's time I do that.

James

: Town. One of the most active scumhunters. Not afraid to put his main scum reads out there even if they change pretty quickly (went fairly quickly from me/nav to me/dum/orc), but he does it in a way that feels genuine. I think he's just posting thoughts as they come to him, and then adapting to new info or further analysis of existing info. Afterwards he tends to follow up. Generally trying to push the group into productive discussion.

Navigatorv

: Town. Very active in scum hunting. Seemed scummy at first due to how self-conscious he's acting, but i've gotten used to it and it seems like that's just his personality, or at least it's how he acts under the pressure of playing in mafia.

Humaneatingmonkey

: Cautiously town-leaning. Good day 1. He probes people/pushes buttons a lot. Some of his posts have very little explanation, but it could be a tactic to get reactions from people. But I could also see his posting style as a way to try to fish out power roles.

Orctin

: Scum-leaning. I read him as vaguely towny in day 1 but found myself wondering if he's just fooling me into thinking that. A lot of "helpful" posts providing general info about players or the game, devoid of real scumhunting. Which is funny in retrospect because that was my original reason for joke-voting him D1. Catboi and James make a good case against him.

Catboi

: Scum. I had already read JacksonVirgo as scum, and I have a stronger scum-read after seeing how catboi has talked about orctin.

Orctin was a player who had been fairly inactive and wasn't receiving much attention. Up until recently, most of the general group suspicion regarding the Dum/Orc gambit had been on Dum, leaving Orc out of the spotlight. Then today, catboi replaces in right after there starts to be pressure on orctin, and immediately makes a heavy push against orctin and starts a wagon on him. Great way to capitalize on a player who's suddenly under pressure and build momentum on them, while quickly making yourself look like you're a more useful scumhunter than the previous player.

Catboi 611 isn't good. orctin clarified what he meant regarding potential partners in 609 (which was further clarified later in 612), then catboi asks nonsensical followup questions where the answer should be obvious given orctin's previous post.

If orctin is scum, this is a bus for catboi to quickly build the town's trust.

Super: I had already scum-read Dum. Need to take a closer look at Super, but I'll save that for another post.

[NinjaStore]

My vote stays on catboi.

[NinjaStore]

^ assuming its referring to 571.

Yeah.

[NinjaStore]

Describing my followup as "nonsensical" is a pretty egregious attack. I assume you're referring to 614? What part of it, exactly, did you find nonsensical?

I'm talking about this:

That's cause there's 2 ways to look at things - first was from a HEM View - and if HEM was scum - then who would i put with him - James fit that line of thought because of their counterpoints. When i came to James i Look from another angle, If i was to read James as scum, I think honestly a much wider scope of who's with him because his place is different,

So your looking at two angles - one from the Hem angle - who to pair with him - the other from the James angle - and who would pair with him. I dont read them the same way but view it as two totally different situation so you cant just automatically put one with the other in looking both ways

This is gibberish. How is it you could see person A being teamed with person B if they are scum, but if you think of person B as scum you don't see person A as a partner?

Additionally, this is contradicting what you said in your reads list - in there you said you had a hard time seeing a partner for James, but here you're suddenly saying there's a much wider scope of people who could be scum with James?

Orctin had

just

explained what he had meant - that IF HEM was scum, a likely partner was James, and IF James was scum, the partner could be any number of people.

Then in the second part of your post:

Additionally, this is contradicting what you said in your reads list - in there you said you had a hard time seeing a partner for James, but here you're suddenly saying there's a much wider scope of people who could be scum with James?

They literally mean the same thing.

[NinjaStore]

I had already read JacksonVirgo as scum

Remind me again what your reasons for scumreading him were?

517 and on

His tone stood out at the start of day 2 after a re-read of the thread.

Tone that emphasized that he was making reads rather than who the reads were about
Constantly reminding people that this is his playstyle

I also pointed out something he said about being town that set off my spidey sense, a point that james seems really obsessed with.

And he had a bizarre day 1 post about early hammers that he claimed was a gambit.

[NinjaStore]

catboi's actions look scummy for reasons completely unrelated to anything JacksonVirgo did. Any player entering the game when catboi did and making that push against orctin would be making what looks to me like a scum play.

[NinjaStore]

Gira what's your read on me? if any?

I'll respond to Ninja/Orc when I get up from bed

I had to look back a few pages to see who gira was. Could you call him catboi? It would help keep the conversation clearer.

I'll address other questions/posts when I get the chance. I need to be productive atm.

[NinjaStore]

catboi's actions look scummy for reasons completely unrelated to anything JacksonVirgo did. Any player entering the game when catboi did and making that push against orctin would be making what looks to me like a scum play.

What do you make of Super then?

Super is acting towny so far. We didn't have a whole lot of info on Dum, so a Dum scumread could have easily been inaccurate. I doubt I'd want to elim Super today.

[NinjaStore]

@Ninja

"Orctin: Scum-leaning. I read him as vaguely towny in day 1 but found myself wondering if he's just fooling me into thinking that. A lot of "helpful" posts providing general info about players or the game, devoid of real scumhunting. Which is funny in retrospect because that was my original reason for joke-voting him D1. Catboi and James make a good case against him.

Catboi: Scum. I had already read JacksonVirgo as scum, and I have a stronger scum-read after seeing how catboi has talked about orctin."


I don't understand how you can say Catboi and James have made good cases against Orc and you're leaning scum on Orc, but then say Catboi is bussing and his push on Orc was bad? It seems very contradictory lmao

Catboi makes their case in 620 and 628.

[NinjaStore]

catboi's actions look scummy for reasons completely unrelated to anything JacksonVirgo did. Any player entering the game when catboi did and making that push against orctin would be making what looks to me like a scum play.

Why does it have to be a scum play? What do you think a town player who replaces into a slot under suspicion would do? Why couldn't I be town with a legitimate read that I'm trying to push?

It was a good time to slip in when there was just starting to be heat on orctin.

[NinjaStore]

gg all. I guess I'm kind of bad at reading people.

[NinjaStore]

gg all. I guess I'm kind of bad at reading people.

Everyone is, but you get a little better with experience. Don't sweat being wrong when you're new. I hope I didn't put you off with my questioning, I only wanted to get you to think critically about thelogic behind your scumread of me - I think your impulse for suspecting me was entirely understandable but you didn't really seem to have considered worlds where I was town, and that type of thinking can lead to tunneling.

I was criticized in a previous game offsite for changing my reads instead of just picking one and sticking to it. In this game, I had a tough time following everything all at once so I just focused on a few specific details that stood out when I was reading through the thread, and hoped I was finding stuff others were overlooking.