Newbie 2071: The Sandwich Debate - End!

[petapan]

hi lld

i promised to play nice since this is the newbie queue, so let's get along

[petapan]

i had followed this game loosely, i am aware of the current situation (clasko cleared cop with a guilty on T3)

was reasonably confident in my read of VFP being town, took the slot, was happy to see i was correct

luckily, as we already have information at our feet, i don't have to read the whole game linearly, i can just put on a clinic for the newbies on how to partner hunt with confirmed scum, which is good because i work way better with flips



i will say up front that i think hockeyfan is very very likely T3's teammate based on a quick search i did at work, will get into the full analysis later when i have time

[petapan]

oh god you're VFP

this... may not be very fun for you

lol i wouldn't have jumped into this game if i didn't think this slot was town

understand why you scumread this slot but think your reasoning is a little bit off, might spend a little time on that, am perfectly willing to make a bet the game wager on my one scumread being correct if there's any fear i might wriggle free

[petapan]

I'm also in a position where I'm not 100% certain I want to bet the farm on T3+Hockey/VFP and lock it down? I feel good about my GPM read and okay about my Looker read but I wanted to re-engage with Clasko before solidifying.

bluntly, he wasn't trying to look town, the aggression and lack of explaining anything isn't going to play well in a newbie game, from a little vbit of seeing him as scum in newbies he's more cautious and tries to make himself more presentable. here he just barreling ahead without actually trying to look good with his posts.

i also think he doesn't approach the game as scum by hardshoving his partner all of day 1 only to switch off at the last minute - he might distance, but i didn't think in a 9P he'd make his partner the main wagon he as trying to push for a majority of day 1.

of course this was largely gleaned from ISO and i did not have full context, but it was enough for me to get the read right

the one concern I have, Peta, is that once Clasko dies I would not be shocked that if I did hockeyfan and hockey flips town, you'd shoot me that night and then it's you v. GPM and Looker. I have no agency there, so it's a question of tomorrow, what's my best winning odds

so I have all those concerns to parse, and that's where my brain is at right now, the more you engage with me about it, the better I think I'll have a sense of it.

perfectly understandable, which is why i'm saying i'm willing to get the game down to one read and bet on it, because i think i'm way more likely to talk my way out of an elimination in f3 than hockeyfan and from a town pov that should be a concern. same as how if i had doubts on you i'd absolutely have to get that aired out on day 3 because day 4 would be too late whether i'm alive or dead. i don't think it's you, but that is mainly because i think hockeyfan just looks like a hit, rather than having any particularly strong reason to clear you as of right now. i actually thought bulge looked scummy in ISO, but i have a bad track record when it comes to reading him, if you're town i consider myself effectively 0/3 lol

[petapan]

oh really? lmao

i am also VT, clasko's claim is confirmed

[petapan]

I will need to Reeval VFP through this new replacement -- but T3 switching to vote this slot makes it weary for us.

a basic rule of mafia is that you should ignore literally everything done by outed scum, him moving his vote here is meaningless for my alignment either way. nothing t3 does from this point on means a single thing. i think his approach to vfp is lightly anti-partnery, but i'm of course biased

[petapan]

your slot was claimed, Peta

lol, whoops, i had thought so but in the moment i was like "ok w/e"

[petapan]

Cows in radiating townieness.

More proof that T3 just townread town.

I only flail as scum
Looker doesn't exist.
VFP is a consensus scumread.
LLD is kind of weirdly null.
cows is probably town.
hockey scum.
Grandpa and James I will not disclose.

Okay I conclude scum between Hockey / VFP.

for what it's worth, i think this is a valid heuristic, from what i've seen T3 is stupidly bus-happy/tends to TMI players as town (one of the advantages of him overgaming at a rate that even noraa would think is excessive is there's a lot of meta to draw on), and in general most players are afraid to hard townread their partners as scum, but you can't just use single posts for this sort of analysis, you need to loo more at how he was approaching people through the course of the game, whether he was just trying to get a player on his side or if he was putting suspicion on someone but avoiding actually working to eliminate them.

and saying all that, of course, i still more or less agree with your conclusion anyway, this is just a theory-based point i wanted to put out there.

[petapan]

Spoiler:

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

fuck u rolled scum like u did in 2068 didnt u

Too Town To Be Town?

T3 giv me ur reads rn

James is probably town but I can't say why.
Bulge is a tr. I'll metadive him at some point becauseI'm slightly paranoid.
You're vibes towny.
Everyone else I forgot about or is null.

ffs.

u did the same shit in ur scum game

am i gonna get pocketed

WAIT

"I know your allignment and I know yours"

LOL rlly used that to say i scumslipped in our game, and then get limmed the next day lmao

Should we lim T3 here?

its either that, you, or rocky.

rocky is worse than t3 idk why cows is townreading them lol

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

t3 has like 1 vote from rvs what

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

cows is pushing me lol and puts me scum wit t3 lol

and its weird that i scum read vfp

wait

my vote pool is literally vfp, t3, and rocky

Its NAI cuz I dont think scum posts smth like that early into the game. Likewise, theres no reason for any VT to claim their role d1 so its not something town should do, so imo its NAI

...how is this not the same thing as 'tstbs' tho? you're saying you don't think scum would post something anti-town so early, which is the exact same thought process as tstbs.

because its full null, I also think town has 0 reason to do this. This is different than tstbs, because if u think they're "tstsbs" you SR them in some sort already which I didnt do

'tstbs' implies a townread.

Once again, I never said "tstbs"

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

I dont understand what the big deal here is? what is so shocking to you about a wagon of 3?

That early into the game is shocking especally when T3 hadnt done anything scummy in eyes

I think I scumread T3 based on meta.

I have bias because everytime T3 calls me town out of the blue with no reasoning, they end up flipping scum. So anytime, I hear those words coming out the mouth -- I get paranio. I usually don't end up voting them until probably day 2.

Bringing back to the point, you said earlier that you didn't why Rocky was scum. I will explain why I think rocky is scum.

They have 15 posts which is fine, but till post 61

I don't know if they were serious with that vote, but I will assume they were meming. They continue to meme.

They finally make a serious read in post 117 which was the WIFOMY thing James said about them claiming to be VT... which is something weird to go into especially considering it being the first genuine read.

In post 220 I actually asked for rocky for their reads (I bring this up because you claim I haven't questioned rocky but I have, rocky just had never replied because their last post is post 164)

They unvote without any reasoning.

I do want to point out that I did agree with rocky in post 164, which is something Rocky could be town for but idk if it's a strong enough reason to call them town.

I haven't voted them yet, because I am still waiting them to come back and give me an updated readlist.

I am also waiting on Beezeburger.

Grandpa. vc. Actually though...

gotcha ur town

ok i think the 2 scum lies in

vfp, rockey, beeze, and maybe t3

t3 vc*

James seriously, vc.

yea lol

ur town i think.

indeliberate mason buddy

Everything in his ISO

but you know t3 acts like this both as town and scum.

why are you driving a bw on t3 on NAI things, respectfully you seen me do the same thing in my aliensitter needed game, that was the whole reason i pushed t3 instead of bussing there

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I'm confident the 2 scum are in [T3, The Bulge, Looker].

heavy disagree, both t3 and bulge have been respectuflly townie.

mostly bulge tho, i feel like they aree playing like me, they are wanting a flip, and have had the same thoughts as me before.

ok lol this interaction makes me wanna say something...

tldr; t3 + james are both tvt, if i had to choose at least 1 scum between james is the vote.

but nah nor t3 or james are scum here. ill explain when i get back from work, i think i will have time around 10:30 pm est, oh thats like 1 hour before deadline

hmmm.

im not moving my move honestly.

i dont think scum!t3 claims vt here after crumbing doc. i do confirm that t3 was crumbing to me. and was crumbing to james as an inside joke referring to "vc" which is something i did last game we were together.

i think t3 would just claim doc, there is no reason for scum!t3 to claim vt unless using it for wifom.

james not understanding this, is very weird. i actually do now think there is scum between vfp + james if t3 flips town.

i would actually vote vfp instead of james because of something which i wont disclose yet

i will post more game analysis when i come back but i have to go!!!

t3 is town!!!!

The thing is T3, you plausibly are town here.
But it's too late in the day for me to start a fresh wagon on someone, considering I don't like any of the other wagons.

I'm going to stop the current spam with two last questions, there's no chance T3 will answer either really.

Why would doctor crumb so obviously?

Everybody and their grandmother would realise it's fake.

Secondly what is stopping you from playing differently on purpose, you in your eyes always do X as town, what's stopping you, as Scum, from doing X then claiming you're town?

VFP crumbs waaaaay better than you, T3
i have a few more thoughts but let me switch to PC i just woke up

Regarding this whole T3 whole crumb thing, the actual crumb isnt scummy but SOLELY using that to towncase yourself is scummy. T3 has been like "oh look i fake breadcrumbed doctor, im town". James not budging and continuing to push T3 which gives me more reason to TR james

also look at this hostile passive aggressive pushing from 4 of the players against t3. lol

okay, so, this is a massive unsorted quotedump from grandpamo about T3. while the progression here on a surface level is maybe not the best - i think this is probably not the approach grandpamo takes with a teammate, distancing early and pressuring him only to pull a full reversal and go into full-out defense when t3 was potentially a candidate for elimination. most players tend to take the path of least resistance and bus when their teammate is in danger. i also think, in more general terms, the way grandpamo is responding to t3 here looks authentic, for the most part. stuff like 269 and 573 feels tonally good, i lean toward that stuff being genuine.

i think 811 here though is a strong indicator of grandpa-town, though. the fact that t3 crumbed doctor specifically to grandpamo was very likely an attempt to pocket him and get him to stop scumreading t3. while it's super weird that grandpa did not somehow find him claiming vt instead scummy, i just don't think this is an interaction that happens between partners here. it's too specific and odd, and while that kind of thing can be faked, i find it incredibly unlikely they would try to do so in a newbie game, because it is

very unlikely

most players in the game would read into that sort of thing and see it as unaligned. i think it's the simpler answer: T3 didn't want grandpa pushing him, but didn't want to push back, so he fake-crumbed to try to escape the pressure and grandpa got pocketed by it.

[petapan]

Spoiler:

Too Town To Be Town?

T3 giv me ur reads rn

James is probably town but I can't say why.
Bulge is a tr. I'll metadive him at some point becauseI'm slightly paranoid.
You're vibes towny.
Everyone else I forgot about or is null.

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

Nugget of wisdom: Don't lim Grandpa or James today. f

I hardclaim VT. I've been hard crumbing doctor to James and Grandpa this entire time to see if I could bait the nightkill. If I survived, either the setup is 2 goons or they are both town. Grandpa acknowledged it. There is literally no way James didn't notice the crumb. I must have crumbed it 5+ times. James and VFP literally have so much scum equity.

First, you and Grandpa would be the only ones who would notice the crumb because it was the exact same crumb Grandpa used in 2070. If I died then the other person would know. If scum realize this and don't kill me, then I am kept alive as basically cleared and scum potentially waste their roleblock. TSTBS doesn't apply here. I have my seperate reasons for scumreading both of you. No, withholding a read isn't scummy. I am crumbing doctor to both of you and what I did requires both of you to survive.Yes, I was hiding and planning in advance. I was planning to DIE.

Also, if I'm scum fake crumbing doctor for later isn't one crumb that I can refer to enough? I was trying to make it really, really obvious to you/Grandpa.

What makes T3 on your radar as scum right now?

he has not done anythign towny. Also fwiw, the whole T3/VFP thing is only something i am going to pay attention on d1 most likely. I said in 719 that i think town should shift away from it a bit but since no one budged, i got back on it as we got closer to deadline. Stop assuming that I am going to sus ONLY these 2 the whole gmae

If I give some names, can you tell me what these players have done that is towny? And where the bar is currently at?

Looker
Grampa
LLD
Clasko

Any order is fine.

Grandpa is towny. What his posts look like and the frequency of them are similar but I find Townpa to be open minded and Scumpa to tunnel limbait town.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Now, taking the same approach, looking at this from T3's end...again, the bad underexplained townread he's super insistent on for grandpamo is just far more likely to be on town than on a partner, particularly in response to grandpamo scumreading him early - it looks like an attempt to placate him. the whole nonsense about him fake-crumbing is not the type of distancing i'd expect from partners in a newbie game. i think grandpamo is just town off of t3 interactions.

[petapan]

Cows in radiating townieness.

For any other reason than them townreading you?

Strange's enterance felt tonally off but other than that fine and cows seems to agree.

Look looker, I know you rolled scum. Please confess?

I only flail as scum
Looker doesn't exist.
VFP is a consensus scumread.
LLD is kind of weirdly null.
cows is probably town.
hockey scum.
Grandpa and James I will not disclose.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

What can I say?

My PoE is Looker, you, and maybe LLD?
But because you're pushing looker you're probably not aligned.

VOTE: Looker
PoE.

so, like, not going to go into as much detail here, because the looker slot is a revolving door, and none of them have had a ton of content to work off of, there's nothing i find particularly telling. in a vacuum, i couldn't tell you what that slot would flip. but T3 coming into the day with that being his primary push has me thinking it's probably a misflip he thought he could get. i'm not super confident on this one.


looker's iso does give me gut town vibes off it, but not really at a bet the game level of strength, don't want to go into detail on what's a very slight read.

[petapan]

i think t3 is town

*opens pocket seams wider and more invitingly*

Happily jumps in

pedit:

serious read tho

Any explanation?

he hasn't done anything scummy

What has he done that is townie?

That's not part of the T3 package.

now, i don't know how the bulge plays as scum, haven't seen him do it, don't know what his typical behavior toward partners is. read here obviously wasn't good, but i feel like it's way more overtly buddy-buddy and friendly than i'd expect him to act with a partner in a newbie game? i would expect more caution in that regard, out of fear a newbie sees them as a team because of that.

this, of course, is slight, because it's only a few posts and otherwise bulge didn't comment much about t3.

Do I let myself get pocketed by bulge and then lose in elo? The answer is, I hope not.

Too Town To Be Town?

T3 giv me ur reads rn

James is probably town but I can't say why.
Bulge is a tr. I'll metadive him at some point becauseI'm slightly paranoid.
You're vibes towny.
Everyone else I forgot about or is null.

I can't say why bc of ongoing games but I

think

Bulge is almost certainly town.

from t3's side, the early comment toward bulge, followed by the reciprocal townread that seems to be because bulge was townreading him, doesn't really feel partnery, plus he uses the gross fake angleshoot read in defense of bulge - i think that's a read manufactured for the sake of looking town, rather than a meaningful defense of bulge, because he's preventing himself from being able to elaborate on it - that type of read won't likely convince anyone to not vote bulge, but it does try to look like t3 has real thoughts about the game and is contrasting it with a different game.

[petapan]

VOTE: lld
This feels similar to Yggdrasil when LLD was scum in the sense that she's trying to control the game. I disagree with her James read and she's trying to pocket hockey.

I always try and control the game regardless of alignment.

By the way, for the person who was talking about NAI things: This is an example of the proper time to use NAI. When someone is describing a playstyle uniformity.

I'm sure there's some minor differences in how I approach my game control between town and scum but I am also a player who actively changes her meta game to game on purpose so, it's a bit hard to describe I think.

Regardless, this is the proper use for NAI. Controlling a game is not an action done more frequently as scum than town.

Also, I'd call into question how exactly I'm controlling the game when I have yet to place a vote, and am currently catching up. In what way am I controlling a game when I'm not even pushing a wagon yet?

Can you please explain to me? I need to determine your sincerity in making this argument to read you.

Like, to be clear, I was eventually going to push to lead from the front because that's how I play, but as of yet I've not done this.

So what is interesting to me is that you've decided to take this line of attack with me despite me having done nothing that could be considered controlling as of yet this game. All I've done is give reads, explain reads and begin a catchup that I have yet to finish.

So your argument is not only fallicious to begin with, wrt to my desire to lead being scum indicative for me, but it's also feeling very fabricated, because there's simply no example of my posting which contains anything controlling as of yet.

So again, I want to be clear: What parts of my posting are similar to Yggdrasil, and in what way are they? And more to that point, what makes those parts contorlling?

Oh boy, time to read the game, find the scum team day 1, lead a scum elimination and get shot at night

let's go

This is you outright implying it, and the tone of your posts seems authoritative and weird.

It's a newbie game, and I don't play them for a reason. The one and only time I played one, I replaced in, called both scum and got shot night 1 after voting out a scum day 1.

Plus, it's a good vibe to bring into a game.

lld isn't a player to make a hasty judgment off interactions with scum, but i dunno, response to t3 here feels good, not theatrical at a glance, i'd assume if she got in the game and T3 started bussing unnecessarily she'd tell him to knock that shit off in the scum PT, but maybe...forces less pressure back on t3 here? or if she was questioning him as her partner here, she'd be aiming to make him look more town as a result. doesn't feel that way but that's just a guess. not spending a ton of time on this but wanted to get my thinking out in the open before i moved on.

[petapan]

so now that i've covered all that ground, i can get into the meat of why i think it's hockeyfan. luckily, his ISO is full of mentions of T3, and i think they look quite bad for him:

Spoiler:

cow is town.

T3, is this gonna be another game where u give reads without much explanation and never give the explanation when asked?

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

I disagree but eh its fine, at least this time the TR is justified from u so maybe you are actually town this game

first real meaningful interaction here, hockey pressures T3 for not explaining his read, and T3 gives a very weak explanation of cows' thoughts being "too complex". somehow this mediocre explanation was enough to satisfy hockeyfan and make him suggest T3 is town. this is the kind of thing i find partnery - scum want to interact and look like they're putting pressure on each other, but they don't want to actually go too hard and get their partner eliminated, so they'll ask their teammates questions to seem curious, but not really care about the answers.

Spoiler:

Yea... I said town has 0 reason to say it but if u read 173, i explained in the first half of it, scum has no reason to do it either

so does that mean u null read james?

so wait...

we literally came to the same conclusion but with a different approach sorta (me, u and bulge)

and if im understanding this correctly... u liked bulge's response because u understand their logic vs mine?

Yes, which is why i am tring bulge

im so confused

omfg what are you confused about. To go over once again everything I've said. James post 40 is NAI, your reading of it was Scum leaning and Bulges analysis of it was Town. There? Also @cows, why do u SR t3

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

VFP isnt me but i have a post in drafts that explains it, let me try and finish it up in the coming hours

cleaning up prior thoughts and then going to bed
about as ordered as a d1 rainbow can be

beesechurger (wasnt mentioned before but their opening post is more genuine-informative than scum can ever be)
james
hockey
rock
--townreads stop here
bulge
VFP is true null
grandpa
t3

if you need clarification ask

i have it..........

pot deserves stirring. VOTE: GrandpaMo

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

cows is pushing me lol and puts me scum wit t3 lol

and its weird that i scum read vfp

wait

my vote pool is literally vfp, t3, and rocky

What is this vote pool lol

cows seems to be pushing/Sr'ing T3 more tho

they are voting me lol ...

didnt know voting someone is "pushing" them. In fact cows even labelled the vote as "stirring" the pot. I am just gonna drop this convo as its irrelevant lol. why do u care who cows is pushing more.

My first Read List

Town:

Bulge

Null:
T3
Cows
James

Weak Scum:

Gpa
VFP

Its NAI cuz I dont think scum posts smth like that early into the game. Likewise, theres no reason for any VT to claim their role d1 so its not something town should do, so imo its NAI

...how is this not the same thing as 'tstbs' tho? you're saying you don't think scum would post something anti-town so early, which is the exact same thought process as tstbs.

because its full null, I also think town has 0 reason to do this. This is different than tstbs, because if u think they're "tstsbs" you SR them in some sort already which I didnt do

'tstbs' implies a townread.

Once again, I never said "tstbs"

Oh yeah Grandpa is locktown.

ok yea im not fucking taking chances here last time u did this u pocketed me

VOTE: t3

*this is like a half meme/half serious vote*

Okay so since this is a "semi-serious" vote, u better be ACTUALLY pushing it smfh. Dont just leave your vote there as a chance to bw/sheep others. Also how many votes is that on t3 rn? 3? like wtf is going on lmao

theres been 3 votes on t3? holy fuck where have i been

ok well not 3 votes, but 3 ppl are currently pushing this slot(cows,you and VFP), still super ???

I dont understand what the big deal here is? what is so shocking to you about a wagon of 3?

That early into the game is shocking especally when T3 hadnt done anything scummy in eyes

then, when T3 starts getting some early scumreads, hockeyfan starts defending him, questioning why t3 is getting voted, saying he hasn't done anything scummy. it very much looks like he's trying to derail the wagon on t3 here.

Spoiler:

i also do agree its a bad post

but im not responding to it anymore unless u rlly want me to, since everything is just easily either taken out of context / not thought about properly.

i realize if i dont respond then i get ur true thoughts on other ppl, than you just continuing to blindly tunnel me for no reason.

Alright, thats fine. So based on the whole interaction I had with GPA, i think Im confident in switching cows and Gpa in my reads list. I think cows is a bit scum here, because hes refusing to give AI content for the past while. He gave some reads but has shyed away alot from giving an explanation

Wait until you realise how much or little content T3 has provided.

After reading T3's ISO, I do agree with this statement so yea I might like James as town for now

most of my posts won't be this long. essays suck!

i think it's a given that T3's game regardless of alignment will be filled with one liners and things that they won't expand on unless asked repeatedly. because of this i disagree with scumreading them for that only (i think some people are,), and it'll be for slightly different reasons

tonally, i think their earlygame looks really odd and something that i'd usually see from someone that doesn't know how to generate the information they need to plow through earlygame. they're just floating by and chucking a few names out, including the mod(?) pet peeve is people doing that [shoutout to james too,] since it's openly denying people information about yourself and who you are willing to align with, which means you likely have something to hide

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

I admit it I'm Jester.
I'm kind of tired rn I'll do stuff tomorrow or llater.

when given the chance to align with people, they churn out stuff like this. it's hard to use stuff like this because it's so ambiguous, which I don't like from anybody

unless a new topic comes up i will talk about the claim for 9 more days

wtf
Someone claimed?
Rollin gtown in newbie games burns the soul.

does this count as LAMIST? you just called yourself a jester, dont make it a point to call out that you're town

i think one point for them is the townread on me. it's built on odd reasoning, but it's reasoning that feels like it comes from a personal perspective, possibly from their own experiences when they were a newb that they're applying. i think scum probably doesn't have an incentive to townread me on such shaky grounds, even if it was weak. i asked bulge about the townread and they didn't care about it, then i asked hockey to elaborate on a comment about it and they said they liked it but disagreed? it might be something that you guys don't care about that much but it's probably the first actually AI thing that's come from them

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

This has entered a whole new dimension of misinterpretation.

this was a comment when hockey V grandpamo was happening. understands that it's a misinterpretation but refuses to take any sort of sides. i guess it's pretty funny cause i thought the same thing, so post might be townier than i think

I don't see how refusing to give AI content is a scumtell.

towniest post award (not joking)

a ton of T3's reads are based on meta and they admit this, so i will not comment without the appropriate reading material (wink wink)
i think their unvote on James is towny,

UNVOTE: James
This is a playstyle difference. I put a lot of stock in meta, you don't care about it so you do weird stuff.

the veiled extra information they have on James i don't mind that much but ill pretend that i have it so I can still call James town
tl;dr T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

Do u really think T3's latter posts are "town" enough to make up for the scummier posts above? Cuz I dont think so. They're not *that* town to me. Sure they may not be scummy, but defintely not enough to cancel out his scum logs at the beginning of the game so im curious why u think that?

seems rather PRESUMPTUOUS that you think that i think T3's later logs excuse his earlier posts

your tldr of that post was litreally "T3 looks bad earlygame but has lightened up with towny posts"

but they do, because the beginning logs only show an unwillingness to contribute. you seem to think that the logs i showed later are only moderately town, but know that T3's beginning logs are only moderately scummy and so your scumlean doesn't make too much sense, unless you put a lot of weight into scum logs (do you?)

You're just making up stuff now. Never said they were only moderately scummy, but u are right that I do put some weight into scum logs

T3 probably just hates the random voting stage or something

but, suddenly this all shifts, he decides he agrees with james's reasons for scumreading T3 and decides to townread him, and is suddenly attacking cows for

his

defense of t3. this is especially puzzling because suddenly despite claiming t3 hadn't been scummy earlier, suddenly hockeyfan is saying his early posts were scum logs. now, people can change their mind after a reread, of course. but it's kind of surprising to me that he got such a drastically different impression from a reread.

notably, in spite of his apparent agreement with james here, he doesn't really contribute to pressure on t3. instead, we get this exchange:

Spoiler:

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

Intresting.


Also wtf im still voting Grandpa?
UNVOTE:

that...is an absolutely terrible response from T3, and hockeyfan just sort of lets it slide by. this doesn't

look

like someone who has T3 as potential scum.

Spoiler:

tl;dr:

James
Cows
---
Hockey
VFP
T3
---
Grandpa
Looker
The Bulge

That's where I'm at rn.

Fwiw I didnt think gpas reaction felt that unnatural but a gpa vote is smth I can get behind. Idk if you didnt quite see cows's soft defending of VFP in the last few posts(479,503) Partially 51. So yea I do think cows hasn't necessarily hard defended VFP but certainly discredited the VFP push(that both me and Gpa made). It has indeed died down, and idk if thats cuz of Gpa's inactivity but just a thing to point out.

You're putting too much stock into meta in your T3 read imo. Like this game specifically sure he has done smth, but any other person would be called scum by the way hes playing.

Also can u explain to me how Bulge "not looking anywhere else" is scum? This game has had like 10 replacements so i really dont think thats an issue.

I do like where u've put James tho so no complaints there.

This entire readslist/reads is null/TL for me atm since they are trying to explain their thought process behind them

i bolded inside this reply to clasko for emphasis - he says a lot to chop down clasko's read on T3, saying he's put too much stock into meta, but, again, has hockey actually contributed meaningfully to pressure on T3 in any way? the answer is no. he's more interested in criticizing other people's reads of t3 than doing anything about him himself.

Spoiler:

T3, what are u doing. You are attempting to read someone based off of meta alone. Why not do this wiith some of the other game? Why is LLD an exception?

so, again, a very soft question here, just asking T3 why he's trying to meta-read LLD. T3 gives an answer in 707, but hockey doesn't actually seem to care about it or follow up at all.

I am a T3 meta expert.
T3 is scum!

omg VFP u gonna talk about anything other than t3??

Also regarding this whole VFP/T3 thing thats happneing rn, I think we should shift away a little from it since atm 80% of the players think one of them is scum so if they're both town, uhh we're kinda fucked

left unspoiled, because this is a super scummy quote, imo. hockey is trying to deflect from the scumreads on t3 again here, despite saying his posts were scummy, for some reason he wants to "shift away from it" because...it would be bad if both were eliminated and flipped town? the thinking here makes no sense especially given then he wasn't strongly townreading both players.

nvm I think I have to vote one of t3/vfp now that we're close to deadline. I havent got a good read on the ppl that've replaced in, and everyone else hasnt done anythign scummy. i could vote gpa, but I think condemming one of T3/Vfp gets us some info.

Out of the 2, I think VFP is more scummy for only tunneling on T3 basically this entire game

VOTE: VFP

of course, in spite of what he just said above, he decides to vote VFP instead of T3, despite seemingly suggesting several times he finds T3 scummy. instead he's voting the guy who was most strongly pushing T3. A vote that just...doesn't make sense if you believe T3 had a decent chance of being scum, which he did. it also reads like more partner defense, attacking someone for focusing on only one slot, when that slot just happens to be outed as scum this game.

Spoiler:

hockey there's something that i don't know and you do and i keep seeing reasoning like VFP is tunnelling someone for most of the game, or VFP didn't no lim D1, so i'm just gonna assume that you just want a policy at this point

i think T3 having more scum equity is very apparent

FTR, at 1 point in a time, I didnt want to condemm any of these but since we're so close to deadline, I think we just condemm in those 2. I am also down to pivot to T3 if I have to

Regarding this whole T3 whole crumb thing, the actual crumb isnt scummy but SOLELY using that to towncase yourself is scummy. T3 has been like "oh look i fake breadcrumbed doctor, im town". James not budging and continuing to push T3 which gives me more reason to TR james

I think there's some chance, we'll end up on a 4 TF 4 VFP and 1 other vote and get a no elim.

if absolutely needed i'll swap to VFP to avoid a no lim. i'll be here until deadline

T3 is much less than scummier than VFP imo and u should do that swap rn

wait actually i take that back, not "much less" but, i sr VFP a lil more

he wants to seem like he's open to other options here, but he's not actually moving his vote to T3, in spite of suddenly agreeing that his behavior around claiming is scummy. again, remember, he's voting VFP here

for tunneling T3

. it makes no sense whatsoever.

[petapan]

What makes T3 on your radar as scum right now?

he has not done anythign towny. Also fwiw, the whole T3/VFP thing is only something i am going to pay attention on d1 most likely. I said in 719 that i think town should shift away from it a bit but since no one budged, i got back on it as we got closer to deadline. Stop assuming that I am going to sus ONLY these 2 the whole gmae

now, suddenly, the only reason he can give for T3-scum is "has not done anything towny"? and that's somehow one of the main elimination targets hockey is ok with voting?

okay we have 1 hour til deadline, can the ppl who are voting james vote one of vfp/t3(preferably VFP) cuz that gives us alot more info @clasko, @LLD

the classic scum move: fos your buddy, but push on a townie.

Here are just some thoughts for me at start of d2

Grandpa- Honestly dont know how to read this slot. They have super towny logs(428,453,620)(after the tunnel on me but even then that was sorta town but I think this is something they can pull off as mafia so im paranoid of putting them as my top town atm

VFP- once VFP actually started making content, he was pre town. I am pretty hesitant to TR them since their push was *me* and I didnt really like it. This is ofc bias since it was against me, but yea i can put this slot in null/weak town

T3- still have no clue what this guy is doing but I think hes scum(mainly gut). I still think theres 1 scum between T3/VFP and we should have limmed one of them yday

Clakso- Town

LLD- Maybe I was town reading them just cuz they talked confidently, idk

Looker- Have no read

Lets pressure Looker

VOTE: Looker

now, the reads list here at the start of day 2 feels like a glaring red flag - Hockey apparently scumreads T3, but rather voting him, he votes

Looker

, who he had "no read" on. That makes absolutely no sense from a town perspective. even if someone is lurky and not contributing much, there are other ways to pressure them than with a vote, and here it just looks like he wants an excuse to not actually vote T3 still despite professing to scumread him.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

i mean, like...there's no reason he should "like" this post and i have no idea why he would.

Looker and T3(This slot has become townier but still within my top 2 scum)

and yet he knows he's painted himself into it, he can't actually not scumread T3, he just has to make up excuses about how he "seems townier" to keep him alive. the whole thing looks extremely partnery in my view.

[petapan]

i'd look at it from T3's end because i think that's also bad but i have noticed i have stayed up until 2:30 AM writing all this junk and i need to actually get some sleep

[petapan]

Also, yeah, welcome to the game petapan!

thanks, nice to meet you

[petapan]

Spoiler:

Hello everyone!
Hello random mafia.gg people!
Hello to my scumpartner fferry!

Hi T3! Can you post more than 8 times this game, Thanks!

can't be talking about james's alignment too soon, we might find something wacky

What does this even mean

cow is town.

T3, is this gonna be another game where u give reads without much explanation and never give the explanation when asked?

my 2 cents on james (sorry grandpa), i was getting somewhat awkward/forced vibes from his early posting before the claim. my initial reaction to 40 was that i can see scum motivation behind it, specifically the "if I redact it later[...] feel free to hammer me" bit, but aside from it just being a particularly distracting shitpost, i cant find a reason for town to post this seriously. with 104 tho i'm thinking it could be townfuckery that's drawing my suspicion. i stand by the forced feel i was getting early on, but call him a light scumlean for me for now.

I really like this from Bulge, now idk if hes town just yet, but I do like this

Maaaaaaybe!
Maybe not.

Specifically why I think cows is town is because his thought is too complex for a fresh newb straight from mafia.gg.

I disagree but eh its fine, at least this time the TR is justified from u so maybe you are actually town this game

I was town that game

so to start off, you have these early interactions between T3 and hockey, they're kind of playful, not much substance to them, although it's dangerous to read too much ito this sort of thing, some people just can't resist doing awkward little early game dances with their scumbuddies. i'm mainly quoting this here to provide context, though.

VOTE: HockeyFan

after that, he doesn't really mention hockeyfan at all until he drops this naked vote on him. from context, it's not really clear why he was voting hockeyfan here, he never explains it or pushes it all, and later he just hops off to vote VFP in 465. very little actual comment on hockeyfan here.

Spoiler:

i also do agree its a bad post

but im not responding to it anymore unless u rlly want me to, since everything is just easily either taken out of context / not thought about properly.

i realize if i dont respond then i get ur true thoughts on other ppl, than you just continuing to blindly tunnel me for no reason.

Alright, thats fine. So based on the whole interaction I had with GPA, i think Im confident in switching cows and Gpa in my reads list. I think cows is a bit scum here, because hes refusing to give AI content for the past while. He gave some reads but has shyed away alot from giving an explanation

I don't see how refusing to give AI content is a scumtell.

this is another post, it's just a flat disagreement with something hockeyfan said, and nothing more. he's not really attacking hockeyfan over it, but also isn't really trying to convince hockeyfan of anything. it's just

there

.

Spoiler:

SCUM VFP likes to pocket me and then flip on it later game.

lol why tf are you using the same exact thing as what i do....

LOL

i pointed this out in early day 1 intereaction by saying thew same exact thing t3

I didn't see it

maybe because of the 60 line walls

T3 why do u TR cows

Honestly just vibes and an earlier towny post.

VOTE: HockeyFan

cows push is a joke. Speaking of which, how much is the fruit gummy?

then, later, we get this. hollow response to a question by hockeyfan, another vote, with the only justification being "cows push is a joke". it's not a serious vote. he isn't explaining it in a way that would be convincing to, well, anyone.

VOTE: lld
This feels similar to Yggdrasil when LLD was scum in the sense that she's trying to control the game. I disagree with her James read and she's trying to pocket hockey.

I always try and control the game regardless of alignment.

By the way, for the person who was talking about NAI things: This is an example of the proper time to use NAI. When someone is describing a playstyle uniformity.

I'm sure there's some minor differences in how I approach my game control between town and scum but I am also a player who actively changes her meta game to game on purpose so, it's a bit hard to describe I think.

Regardless, this is the proper use for NAI. Controlling a game is not an action done more frequently as scum than town.

Also, I'd call into question how exactly I'm controlling the game when I have yet to place a vote, and am currently catching up. In what way am I controlling a game when I'm not even pushing a wagon yet?

Can you please explain to me? I need to determine your sincerity in making this argument to read you.

I also don't understand how you could have possibly got a read on Hockey from those first few pages.

UNVOTE: lld
I'll look at your meta.

this part, in particular, is a red flag for me - him specifically choosing to nitpick LLD's townread on hockeyfan suggests he knows the read is wrong but is using it to attack her rather than pressure hockeyfan at all. this is a certain bad tendency a lot of people have as scum, when their partner is getting townread they'll express some doubt of the read to distance, thinking it'll make them look good.

now, i admittedly don't have the context for this, but at that point in time, my impression was hockeyfan was fairly townread. so what does T3-scum gain from expressing suspicion on a popular townread? i very much doubt he was trying to "widen the POE", as people sometimes say. there were easier targets for him to push, i feel like he would know his chances of getting hockey eliminated were low. and that's why this sort of thing is obvious distancing if you have enough experience to spot it - he'd be too afraid to question the townreads on a player who's actually town, because then he might get blowback for it. i see this kind of thing all the time, it's a major pet peeve of mine because IMO it's just sloppy play.

T3, what are u doing. You are attempting to read someone based off of meta alone. Why not do this wiith some of the other game? Why is LLD an exception?

1. That's wrong.
2. This is a newbie.
3. LLD has a lot of meta I can look at.

I only flail as scum
Looker doesn't exist.
VFP is a consensus scumread.
LLD is kind of weirdly null.
cows is probably town.

hockey scum.

Grandpa and James I will not disclose.

we already know t3 is scum, of course, but the fact that he claims to be scumreading hockey but responds in such a safe way feels notable - it doesn't look like he's actually feeling pressured by hockey here. no concern, no worry that the questions he's asking might result in a scumread.

Are you trying to chain up mis lims?

This was also my thought process, if you're town then it points to Hockey setting up mislims.

again, a very weak attack on hockeyfan here - there's nothing to this read, just the lightest of suspicion at a time when he knows hockey can't get wagoned.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

What can I say?

My PoE is Looker, you, and maybe LLD?
But because you're pushing looker you're probably not aligned.

Clasko - Conftown
Grandpa - Townread

Everyone else: everyone else

VFP's switch at the end of yesterday I is towny.

Ffs, why do I actually like this post from T3. is t3 actually town? What a world.

What can I say?

My PoE is Looker, you, and maybe LLD?
But because you're pushing looker you're probably not aligned.

I like it but I feel like we're both wrong on Tr'ing Gpa, but i am confident tring gpa for d2. so yeah we can pre much just lim Looker rn unless he becomes towny

To me, LLD immediately townreading you feels like pocketing. Then again, it was really obvious so it might be scumbag tring scumbag?

Honestly I just didn't think of interactions around Hockey.

fast forward to today and we have this final set of interactions. i don't have a ton to say here, it looks teamed to me but i'm in pretty deep in my tunnel at this point, his responses to hockeyfan are an awkward "oh yeah you're in my POE" but also "LLD looked like she was pocketing you" which is pretty nonsensical. consistent pattern though, T3 calls hockeyfan scummy a bunch but never seriously attempts to get him eliminated. i think that, coupled with what i assume was the threadstate - not enough people seriously scumreading hockey for him to be a viable elimination - strongly points to this being distancing by T3. (if i'm wrong and more people were scumreading hockey, disregard that, but i still think this is significantly more likely to be a teammate of T3 than anyone else)

[petapan]

so that's about it from me in terms of analyzing the interactions and people's reads around T3. i can possibly do some speculation as to why cows was the NK, and pull meta on T3 to back up how he acts around partners, but other than that i don't feel like i have a

ton

to contribute. i could give the game a full read, but it doesn't feel super necessary at this point because hockey just looks super obviously like T3's partner


other than that, i'm basically treating my stint in this game as a teaching role, so if any of the newbies have questions about my process here or any theory stuff, feel free to ask me anything

[petapan]

I think an immediate burning question I have, and... I don't know if it's the right one to ask, but:

What should newbies do in the presence of the "meta" argument? Like, if player X accuses player Y of being scum due to meta (or if meta is part of the argument), does Player Z (newbie) need to go through Player Y's previous games? Or should they focus solely on the game they're in to determine whether Player Y is scum?
I'm of the opinion it doesn't need to be a factor for newbies until they've shared/read a significant amount of games with Player Y, which would take a longer amount of time than the game they're currently in, but I've seen it being brought up in a lot of recent newbie games, so my thoughts over meta are slightly hazy.

hmm, i'm an interesting person to ask on this because my opinion is different from most - i feel like "meta", at least the way most people on the site use it these days, is incredibly lazy and leads to bad reads. people will make statements like "player

x

sounds similar to game

A

where they were town" or "player

x

is completely different from game

B

where they were town" (you can change "town" to "scum" in both of those examples, my usage here was arbitrary), and i think these are both fallacies. a player is going to usually sound similar across games because they are

the same person

. unless they're sure there's a clear difference in their play as both alignments, that's no good. but by the same token, a person can behave differently in games for reasons entirely unrelated to their alignment, but just their mood and enthusiasm, or the strength of their reads that game. additionally, if you don't have an idea of the range of someone's scumplay, assuming they are town because they're acting different is dangerous - most people are going to try to change things up if there are several players in the game who have seen them as scum recently.

the argument becomes stronger if the player making the meta case has a strong familiarity with the person, but even then i think people will often be biased toward townreading their friends because of "meta". the thing i would post most stock is if someone is very familiar with a player and is very certain they're scum, because they're playing in a way they wouldn't as town. that type of read tends to be accurate, i think.

anyway, to actually answer your question, properly researching meta takes hours, and most non-crazy people do not have that kind of time. (unless the meta is simply "this person always acts like this", that is relatively quick to check). i think how much stock you put into a meta read in a game just has to depend on how much you trust the person who is giving it in game. in general, though, i would say your read on what is happening in your current game is more important than anything that happened in an old game.

I think meta is why a lot of people create alts. Are we waiting for anything else?

definitely true for me, lmao. i don't have a ton else to add

[petapan]

Progress the game? This is why I say this game is subjective - I don't see how beleaguering a point with walls of text (which can be easily misinterpreted and spun to agenda like most things on this site are) is progressing the game any more than stating your sentiments concisely and directly. Not saying I hate walls of text, just saying that most of these "cases" (i.e. HockeyFan saying I haven't tried to progress the game) come down to personality and playstyle differences. You end up with two jobs as town - find the mafia and win a popularity contest.

i mean

do you think hockeyfan really believes that or is he making a generic sounding accusation to eliminate you

[petapan]

dont gotta answer that now of course

VOTE: T3


fwiw i did a check on t3's meta and he's not as consistently bus-y in newbie games so i guess that evidence doesn't work, still think him and hockeyfans stances on each other are very telling. i can go into the cows nk for a bit though.

[petapan]

hi

i intend to give this game a full read for the sake of due diligence (although in my looking at ISOs it seems exceptionally dense for a newbie game), but my inclination is still to think that it's hockeyfan because in newbie games typically the surface level reading of the game ends up being the correct one

[petapan]

I know for a fact that they are able to do their mini analysis as either alignment

er, how do you know this? it's correct, but i'm not sure how you'd have a way of knowing


truthfully, almost nothing i do this game is going to be alignment-indicative, because when i replaced in, one mafia was already outed. the reads i gave were largely the ones i had prior to getting my role, so they'd be "honest" even had i replaced a scum slot. i'm not saying this to create uncertainty around me, i just want the newbies in the game to understand - the only real way to read my slot is going to be through reading the actions of VFP and deciding whether they make sense as coming from mafia

[petapan]

With that being said, am I allowed to question VFP replacing out as soon as T3 was caught? Or how the 1v1 between T3 and VFP didn't move to VFP but instead went to James?

you're allowed to speculate on it but VFP replaced out of all of his games sitewide and this is verifiable fact, so should be taken as non alignment indicative

[petapan]

Maybe. I just feel it's obvious. I didn't kill James and I hammered T3. Look at the actions of other players - I don't know what more there is to say. I think people just want to post because that's what they find fun about the game.

i mean, yea

don't know what you get out of the game tbh

[petapan]

acceptable

so do you have a guess for who the scum is right now?

[petapan]

agree with that, when we had confirmed scum decided as the day's elimination and clasko had said all he wanted, it was time for the day to end

[petapan]

sorry for being inactive, forgot newbie times are on a shorter timer, have been busy with other things, will try to get my reading in today

[petapan]

i'm actually reading from the beginning now and i can't believe people voted james on day 1

[petapan]

Are we waiting for prods or can I vote already? I think I have a good guess of who it is. Don't want to end the day early, though, since, apparently, that was a big deal last time.

just vote there's no need to be such a snarky jerk in a newbie game

[petapan]

why do u want to have a Universval tr 5 pages in? Are you trying to get your mafia teamamate Utr'd? Also I dont see the appeal for Tr'ing James, so what makes u TR james?

seems like you dont want the POE to be shrunk
it would be a good strategy if we were not in newd3 and if i was actually charismatic
neither of which are really the case
post #111 was my reasoning. since you started out in the same community i think, i'm wondering about your two cents on what i said

eh I think its mostly NAI, i think ppl who say they're VT appear as they're town to not get sussed later

i do not like this post!

[petapan]

Anyone else see the problem with this from Hockey?

I have gone from about 80/20 to 95/5 Hockey being scum from that response. Mostly because I kind of see what the path is for him now.

you're going to have to explain it to me because i don't see it

[petapan]

you don't have to rude and sarcastic all the time

[petapan]

if grandpamo made 305 as scum i'll be stunned

i'm working somewhat slowly as i'm busy with other things but having gone through the early part of the game, my views are more or less unchanged from what i got from skimming ISOs and reading for associatives

[petapan]

1. i think 313 is sort of a classically scummy response to getting hard pushed by a townie - hockey had been scumreading grandpamo but when mo starts really going after him he tries to suggest they're both town misinterpreting each other and says he wants to end it, it's attempting to artifically cut off the argument because he doesn't have a good way of responding to grandpa.

2. 315/316 just look like classic scum distancing, the fact that t3 ignores hockey and hockey has to point it out in 321 is the sort of thing that happens because one scum player isn't paying that much attention to their partner's posts. 321 doesn't get a response either, but that doesn't really lead to him pressuring t3, seems like hockey didn't care that much about t3 ignoring him after all

i very possibly made this point earlier but it sticks out on review of the thread

[petapan]

we're running short on time, not much is going on. still reading through day 1 but i haven't seen anything to change my mind so i'm voting now:

VOTE: hockeyfan

[petapan]

the question is open to everyone
tell me how scum!VFP plays

might even say they're not the vote today if you guys keep this up

small snippet but cows was pretty well on the side of VFP being town despite a lot of people not liking his lack of contribution, if anyone still actually believes vfp-scum kills cows n1 for some reason

[petapan]

oh dear god

i was going to make a comment about how reading through day 1 of this is painful

[petapan]

if you're in this game and still have a pulse please vote

[petapan]

hockeyfan, the game has gone stagnant. there is nothing of importance happening. there is very little discussion taking place. we just just lost 1 of the 2 remaining original players in the game. i asked looker who he thinks is mafia 3 days ago and he has only offered passive-aggressive comments in return (depressingly, i do not think this makes him more likely to be mafia). in order for this game to not succumb to heat death there needs to be movement in the form of votes.

i'm finishing reading up the end of day 1 but this is mostly for myself as i don't think anyone is waiting on any more analysis from me

[petapan]

Fwiw I didnt think gpas reaction felt that unnatural but a gpa vote is smth I can get behind. Idk if you didnt quite see cows's soft defending of VFP in the last few posts(479,503) Partially 51.

To each their own. It just jumped out to me as a possibility.
You SR'ed Grandpa at time of argument, in 368 you say you think they're town, now you're fine with a potential vote on them - what's your case for them rn?

I mainly tr'd them so I wouldnt be tunneling them forever. I still think they're null to weak scum but leaning more null rn

bad, opportunistic response from hockeyfan where he says he is okay with eliminating grandpamo after supposedly townreading him, then tries to walk it back by saying he "tr'd them so I wouldnt be tunneling them forever" which makes no sense?? why would you townread someone just to stop tunneling them, there's no logical process here

I am a T3 meta expert.
T3 is scum!

omg VFP u gonna talk about anything other than t3??

Also regarding this whole VFP/T3 thing thats happneing rn, I think we should shift away a little from it since atm 80% of the players think one of them is scum so if they're both town, uhh we're kinda fucked

bad attempt to divert focus from T3. already pointed this out but bears repeating

[petapan]

I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive, I was trying to be direct: at no point did I insult anybody, so at no point did I expect to be insulted. With that being said, I'll allow you to calm down from your AtE so that, when I actually do decide to re-engage this game, it'll be because I want to have fun, not because I'm upset.

please don't lie, you've very openly been taking potshots at most of the rest of the game in your posts. it's incredibly disrespectful for a newbie game. i'm not stupid, your intentions are clear.

also, calling you rude is not an emotional appeal, please learn how words work

[petapan]

i don't want to make this an argument, though. we only have to tolerate each other in this game for a week or so more at most. so let's agree, you cut the snark, i stop complaining about you, and we move on with our lives. capiche?

[petapan]

nah, like i said i have no desire to turn this into a personal fight, man. irrelevant to the game. i'm dropping this now.

if you think i'm scum, vote me.

[petapan]

VFP and T3 softbussed until others got involved, then they dogpiled on James - I still find that suspicious.

hell, let's get back to the game - your assessment is that they "softbussed", but VFP had his vote glued to T3 for almost all of day 1 until the james wagon came out of nowhere. they couldn't have been counting on that opportunity coming up, so otherwise this would seem like incredibly poor strategy as scum.

how is that "soft" compared to, say, hockeyfan's treatment of T3 where he keeps calling him somewhat scummy but finds excuses to vote other people?

[petapan]

well

that was my one guess

this sucks

[petapan]

in some sense i let myself get confirmation biased on hockeyfan, but i'm not really sure i ever would have gotten there on him being town. posts were too weird for me to pick up on the genuineness. maybe should have seen he didn't react like scum being pushed.

as for today, well, i expect things are probably already set in place

[petapan]

Also, also, how bad is it that none of the newbies made it to the end of the newbie.

it's unfortunate, this is a weird game

[petapan]

some of it was the game stalling but some of these replace outs were probably not games related, just a weird series of coincidences

[petapan]

Peta I'm going to have a really hard time getting away from my hand here.

but I can't imagine you can leave me alive in this situation, Peta.

Like... I have to feel like you have a better shot of killing Looker if you take GPM and Looker in and leave me out. That I am alive currently hits me with issues that

I said that I couldn't see T3+Looker as scum, and I COULD see T3+VFP as an explicit pairing.

So I'm sitting here wondering if that read was just spot on, but I don't know if you'd do some kill ninjitsu.

Cause I feel like you have to know if you vote for me here Peta, that Looker probably votes for you.

Which makes me wonder if you can even DO the fake out required

strictly speaking, the manatee shot is a smart one for anyone - the slot was more townread than any of us, and no one has any idea of what manatee's reads would have been, so her dying leaves a void of informaion. replacements can often turn a game around, killing them is good

however, i'm not you, i don't make weird kills to mess with people. i will take whatever is the easiest path to victory, my policy is always to pass hammer to the person most likely to mess it up, and i think i'd have a better chance at swaying manatee than you, although i haven't seen manatee as town so i could be talking out my ass

[petapan]

so, to pick up the pieces and reassess:

I hadn't really liked Bulge's posts, too much of his reads and reasoning were bizarre to me. LLD, prior to my rep-in, was kind of playing like how i'd set the template for playing scum as an SE in a newbie game - seem helpful and leadery but kind of hands off, let the newbies go in the wrong direction and amplify the bad reads, don't push any wagon hard yourself. also, the james scumread is bizarre to me, feel like most players who have been playing a decent amount of time should have had him as obvious town

i did not post these concerns yesterday because i had convinced myself it was hockeyfan, and so there was no need to say that stuff, because it probably didn't matter

HOWEVER, there was one very specific interaction between bulge and T3 that seemed unlikely to come from partners. i haven't seem bulge as scum, don't know how he plays it, but it's a fairly significant point



as for looker, the slot is mostly a content void, which makes it very hard to judge. he had some posts i thought were okayish, but not a lot else. the fact that two newbies replaced out before him is maybe the worst sign, because i think newbies often flake out when they draw scum and don't know what to post

i think the strongest point in his favor is t3 voting him on day 2 but t3 is also bus-happy and i'm not sure how much that actually works in his favor


mostly right now i want to look back at bulge and strangematter and see if i can find anything

[petapan]

hm, so, interesting - in strangematter's previous newbie games as town, they didn't really struggle to produce content at all, posted plenty, had reads, made votes

granted, replacing in is different, but here they stalled and said they were catching up, asked a few unimportant questions, made a generic statement about lurkers, then vanished. it's a bad look.

[petapan]

oh, right, i forgot i was technically scum with bulge in nightless exploder pandemonium, but that game obviously is not representative of anything

this is the sequence from the bulge i am looking at:

Do I let myself get pocketed by bulge and then lose in elo? The answer is, I hope not.

i think t3 is town

*opens pocket seams wider and more invitingly*

serious read tho

i think t3 is town

*opens pocket seams wider and more invitingly*

Happily jumps in

pedit:

this would be a very weird interaction between partners. it can be done, but most wouldn't choose to play it that way. the weird playfulness and him bluntly declaring a townread on t3 - it'd be bold, in particular because t3 gets a fair amount of scumreads and is a pretty decent bet to get flipped in any game. i think someone with knowledge of his alignment would be more inclined to see his play as scummy, in particular because his contribution was almost non-existent. i think this is more likely a case of bulge having an incorrect read than him trying to aggressively defend his partner. for reference, i looked at his newbie scumgame from last year, newbie2023, and his play around his partner there was a lot more conventional - slight distancing, some questioning of each other, nothing too weird, fairly safe. this would be a fairly significant deviation from bulge's established scumplay. i think his slot is probably town here based on this

[petapan]

i went to look at some other games even though different setups often mean playing differently around teammates and lol wtf are you doing bulge, you can't bus your entire team in nightless

[petapan]

this is kind of an awkward situation

general f3 theory says what gets said on this day is not that important, the main information you should base your decision around is on previous days

but as none of us are the original occupants of our slots in this sham of a game, we can't answer for our predecessors so even our ability to discuss past actions is limited



is there anything either of you want to ask me?

[petapan]

looker, b/c even though i feel like i have a lot of reason to distrust you, the evidence from earlier in the game points to bulge and t3 being unaligned, and i do actually think strange's play was +scum

[petapan]

i have not been to many f3s as town (in forum mafia) so i don't have the practice

[petapan]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but it doesn't make sense. I'm getting big "my time to shine"/"super sleuth" energy, and I know that's part of the game, but I can't sit here and pretend this is anything other than subjective, self-serving angleshooting when everything is based on opinion or interpretation.

I don't see the point of WIFOMing hypothetical NKs - "I would have..." etc - I don't believe any of it. Saying replacements are scum-indicative is moot because we've all been replaced - the only difference is that your guys' slots weren't filled with newbies. You imply that T3 not voting me would have been distancing, but say that since he did vote me, it's bussing. And then you go looking for shaky play in newbie predecessors, but Strangematter being bored doesn't make him scum.

And re:being bored, I don't think T3 and Bulge joking within the first few pages in a newbie is alignment-indicative, but I'm willing to concede you believe that, even though your next post is you expressing unfamiliarity with Bulge's play. The whole thing just seems ad hoc.

that's the fucking game, looker

[petapan]

but no, i'm not really trying to show off, i'm just trying to make a guess at the answer in a game i don't have much investment in

[petapan]

although you have wildly misinterpreted my arguments in ways i would not think possible with a cursory understanding of english

[petapan]

i get it you're the cool edgy mafia nihilist dude

yawn, boring

[petapan]

Also, you keep bringing up Strangematter, but what did he actually do? Especially compared to two miselims. He has 9 posts.

this is strange wording to say that i "keep bringing [them] up" given that i've mentioned strange twice because i thought them showing up and contributing nothing was suspect

you say they were "bored" but as far as i can tell that's pure speculation on your part, nothing in their posts indicated they were bored, they made statements about catching up and being busy. sometimes people are busy. sometimes they make excuses when they're scum and don't know what to post.

as i already said looking at strangematter's other games they had no trouble posting content as town so them having nothing to say here is suspect


of course, i could be entirely off base and reading too much into it

that's the fucking game, looker

[petapan]

as it is you seem content to mostly just shoot down discussion and advance nothing yourself because you're, like, so hip and edgy and above it all

if you think it's me still i encourage you to go for it and vote me

[petapan]

thinking on it, it's interesting that your immediate put-down is "trying to be a super sleuth" because it seems to be presuming that i'm doing this

for real

rather than making up stuff to be manipulative, you know?

[petapan]

meh

i have a lot of reservations based on the way things are going

but it's hard for me to overlook the early game stuff with bulge

i'm going to give him one last reread

[petapan]

whatever

if you're scum please give a thank you letter to the bulge for this game because i reread his iso and decided he looked town

VOTE: looker

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

eh one more time

[petapan]

lol

okay i reread again, let's get to the next step here

VOTE: looker

[petapan]

thank god

[petapan]

so looker actually perspective slipped, lmao

that might be...the first instance i've

ever

seen of that actually happening in a game

[petapan]

and this isn't my scumgame!

[petapan]

but yeah, looker actually was so keen to shoot down my reasoning with his "super sleuth" comment he forgot he should be considering the possibility i could be mafia here

pretty wild

[petapan]

having never seen that before i was nervous to jump on it but it's pretty funny to now have the confirmation

[petapan]

you're so dangerous peta

eh i wouldn't shoot manatee over you, i have 0 care for style points

feel free to take your time though

[petapan]

glad you're having fun, the hard part's over for you.

Now, regardless of your alignment, you gotta try and convince me to lay down my hand.

Cause I came in today pretty deadset on voting you

i think the point regarding strangematter is still salient

here's strangematter's iso from this game

compare it to their two previous games: Newbie 2067 Newbie 2069

night and day difference, they have no trouble posting as town and in fact can post pretty well. here it was cricket chirps followed by a replace out

[petapan]

Every time I address peta, it gets hostile. First he called me a snarky jerk, then a "cool edgy mafia dude" who was "yawn, boring".

me being hostile is extremely NAI and everything to do with finding you annoying

[petapan]

I don't mean to offend anyone, but it doesn't make sense. I'm getting big "my time to shine"/"super sleuth" energy, and I know that's part of the game, but I can't sit here and pretend this is anything other than subjective, self-serving angleshooting when everything is based on opinion or interpretation.

This entire post is actually written from a perspective assuming i'm town, he's trying to insult my reasoning and call it bad, but there's no actual consideration that i could be scum making things up here. it's missing the element of doubt a town player

should

have

[petapan]

nah i'm not gonna let you bait me

[petapan]

anyway, as for VFP, even if he made that bonehead switch to james at the end of day 1, i have to insist he doesn't spend all of day 1 doing nothing but voting his partner and pushing them and doing nothing else

here's a more typical vfp scum game, teammates were jake the wolfie and titus, he actually did no bussing/distancing there whatsoever. people can play differently across games, but in general bussing on day 1 of a 9p is very rare

also in that game, vfp did a lot moreposting to appear "presentable", explained reasoning more, was trying to look town, there was none of that here

[petapan]

i'd be lying if i said t3's interactions with vfp are especially clearing, most of them could go either way. t3 made things decently confusing this game by voting everyone. i will say, however, that in my highly biased opinion, this is not a scum/scum interaction:

How do you roll scum so often, T3?

Hey VFP, u seem to be SR'ing t3 here, any particular reason?

Yes, because T3 is posting scummy T3, not town T3.

Wrong.

the blunt denial, it's...not distancing. i think t3 is more likely to fling an attack back if that's his teammate, here he doesn't start pushing on vfp until it becomes clear vfp isn't dropping his t3 scumread

[petapan]

i also thought looker's sudden hammer yesterday was scummy in a "let's get this over with" kind of way but it was very slight. i've had similar hammers where i knew i needed to get the elim to end the day before people changed their mind

[petapan]

i think if i go for any more here i might be scraping the bottom of the barrel

i don't even know if this will help, but by comparison here's VFP-town from a recent micro where his posting is more similar to this game, less trying to explain things to people, a little less serious overall

[petapan]

God I just wish I could see your eyes and hear your voice, Peta.

I feel like all I need is that and I'd know.

i imagine i'm probably terrible at lying in person, lmao

[petapan]

the t3 vote on looker fooled me too, given the timing of it being right before the guilty o day 2, but the thing is, it doesn't mean anything - t3 is one of the most stupidly bus-happy newbies i've seen. it's not entirely consistent across games but it is an observable pattern in his behavior

i guess the same thing could be said of him voting vfp, but the thing is his response there is more like scum being pushed by a townie - first deny it, say they're wrong, then when that fails push back and say they're scum for voting them. i think it's distinctive (but of course, i'm biased)

[petapan]

With what players would I have been able to build your wagon? You weren't going to vote you, GMo was AWOL, Hockey thought it was me, and Lambda voted the post right before me.

p-edit

why not wait for the replacement and see what they have to say? the immediate compromise there, onto a wagon i was driving, is playing toward a scum win condition because you don't actually care if your scumread got eliminated, anyone but you was good enough

[petapan]

meh i was going to type up a post with references to t3 bussing/distancing from partners in other games but i decided it was trash so i got rid of it

[petapan]

this is maybe a better reference for VFP-town, it's another newbie game and he plays fairly similarly to here, shows past experience with T3 as scum which is why he jumped on that read here

by comparison, here's him as scum in a newbie game - it's a replace in, but he's a lot more serious, a lot more trying to look presentable

[petapan]

and finally this is lolselfmeta, but i'd be in no mood for making hard mode kills this game. i think i'd have a better shot at persuading manatee here as scum than i would lld, because manatee would have no particular reason to distrust me. sure, replacements are a wildcard, but i think as scum i'd have a decent shot of swaying her. i just lost a scumgame in part because i failed to kill the person who publicly indicated he was re-evaluating me. was very disappointing. it opened a few hours before this one, i think i shoot lld 10 times out of 10 after that as scum because i would want to try for an easy win

[petapan]

now i really am scraping the bottom of the barrel, i think

[petapan]

i genuinely don't know how much truth can be divined from a reread here - i had vfp as pretty easy town before subbing in, but if he was inscrutable to you before i don't know how much help rereading is going to be. i'm happy i got bulge right after triple-checking him but he's a more readable player that vfp or a revolving door slot. if you reread anything, i'd tell you to look at those strangematter games i linked and compare them to this one because i think that's probably the most telling thing in terms of content

as a rough estimate, maybe like 85% of how i've played since i replaced in, i'd play the exact same way as scum? so like. i'm not going to be terribly readable here. i think i can't really fake the level of hesitation i displayed here in a genuine way but that's very subjective

[petapan]

if you want a recentish example of me completely throwing shit at the wall in a f4/3 as scum, i realized i actually have that

[petapan]

well that was a game of some kind

i really don't go to 3p as town very often at all so that was an interesting experience

glad to have gotten it in the end even if the hockeyfan read was a big whiff on my part


if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback, feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

[petapan]

Pog town won, ggs. I could have probably played a bit better but im happy I pushed scum on d3. Wp LLD(even though u pushed me >:()

hnestly i think in terms of your play you weren't really all that bad

this misread is 95% my fault here and i'm still not sure what i should have done differently

i think i was reading too deeply into your posts when the real answer (looker's slot) simply didn't have much content to go off that was actually incriminating - i really only got there in the end because i could figure out other people were town

as for yourself, i don't know. you were right and for okay reasons, i just couldn't figure you out. to tell you what you could do differently i'd have to first figure out where i went wrong. i think you did a fine job keeping up with the game in spite of the constant player turnover.

[petapan]

well that was a game of some kind

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback,

How do you not get condemmed . Moreso, how do radiate town/towncase yourself

feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

like, a big part of me voting you was me incorrectly associating you with T3 based on your read of him. sometimes that happens. there's not necessarily a lot you could do about that, it was just an odd coincidence that your read of him was weird. but you couldn't have known he was scum at the time. i think it was something of a logical error to scumread T3, but also scumread VFP for tunneling T3, you know? because if he's tunneling your scumread then that shouldn't be scummy in and of itself.


i thought your response to being pressured by grandpamo was scummy, but i don't know if that's just my own personal bias, you know? your read on him seemed to go back and forth a lot, where he was scummy but then you thought you were TvT but when he became a potential wagon you were suddenly okay with voting him. in hindsight that kind of read shifting is maybe more likely to come from town than scum because it shows you're constantly thinking about the game and changing your mind, i just didn't see it that way at the time.


like i said, i think you getting eliminated here was a

me

problem, not a you problem. the only advice i could really give is if your townread is pushing on you, just keep trying to explain yourself. the only way you get better at that is practice.

[petapan]

LLD is also broadly correct in that projecting confidence in games, as either alignment, is the best way to convince people not to vote you

[petapan]

if any of the newbies who were in the game are still paying attention and want feedback, feel free to ask. not even sure how many of them stuck around given the unfortunate number of replace outs

what are some ways to prevent a rushed d1 elim? i wanted to see if i could prevent it with something like 479, but not much came out of it

i don't have an idea of the timeline. you all had to rush things because of the deadline, right?

i think for starters, unvoting there was a mistake. rather than trying to talk things over diplomatically, you need to start pushing for people to consolidate on a wagon and get someone run up early before the clock starts to run out. if there are people who are sitting on single votes or not voting at all, talk to them specifically and encourage them to join a wagon

[petapan]

One of the hotter topics in the dead thread was the Day 1 elim of JamesTheNames. I think it came down to running out of time and trying to make an elim happen given the players available to consolidate at that point.

He was nowhere near a universal scumread. He was a townread for the majority of players, I think.

Why do you think that happened?

peta's suggestions for how to take the lead and get an elim you want could have helped with the end of day 1, I think.

My best guess is that people saw recent votes on James from T3 and VFP(i think) and they wanted to sheep it. I think clakso voted james because he was the majority vote or smth. it was still a super unfortunate condemm

James died because I pushed him. I don't regret it or think it was a mistake.

My evaluation was that desipte T3 and VFP being scummy, doing the tango between them was a waste of win percentage and information. If they were both town from that position, we lose the game. Even if one of them was scum, we're in similar bad spots decently often.

Suddenly killing james polarized the game into "people who wanted to kill james" and "people who were opposed" and it helped me a lot in how we progressed through the game.

I don't regret it, also, because I felt James had scum equity tbh.

see, there is where i heavily would have disagreed with you, because that type of immediate VT claim is almost always done by town, in my experience. while in effect it's anti-town as the immediate claim narrows down who is a potential pr, making it easier for scum to kill them, it's almost always, in my experience, done by down (cue our host having visions of a certain panda). scum, more often, tend to want to be flexible in what they're able to claim, they don't want to lock themselves in early. the sort of player who pulls that move as scum is quite rare.

(that being said, james, please don't immediately claim VT in the future)

but, nobody's perfect (as evidenced by my own read on entry to the game), and people seeing the game different ways is what makes it interesting.