Newbie 2097 | Kinobot 2: Electric Kinoloo | Post-game

[humaneatingmonkey]

I don't like how quickly people started to gang up on DK to be honest. I'm thinking there might be one (or more!) scum in that push.

hello

VOTE: lerea
who is scum in that push

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think LeRea's sentiment is towny even if they mininterpreted Furtive's posts as also going after me and the negative tone TL used for me as ganging up.

I get thats what they were going for though and mainly saw RCE as being the pusher.

why is it towny

[humaneatingmonkey]

hello newbies

• i just want to say that the best way to play this game as town is to assume everyone ISN'T lying. i know, counterintuitive, but please try your best to talk to people like their intentions are pure. listen, truly listen. don't dismiss. don't discredit. don't get too personal.
• the easiest way to lose a game is town tunnelling town aka when a town player approaches 100% certainty that a player is scum that they find it impossible that anyone else is scum or they can be wrong. don't do this! Do NOT dismiss the possibility that one might be scum, even if it intuitively feels so.
• it's perfectly fine to use your vote prematurely, to test out how things are going to fold out. perfectly fine as long as you believe your vote is doing something. be prepared to explain what your vote is doing, though.

[humaneatingmonkey]

also, scum hide behind discord a lot! they try to emulate feelings of RAGE and DISGUST and CONTEMPT. this is because town players do it a lot, but it's harder to discern the sincerity of negative hostile emotion than pure genuine townsolving.

SO TALK NICE. TALK INTELLIGENTLY. BE SENSITIVE. TRY TO DEFUSE UNNECESSARY PISSING CONTESTS.

[humaneatingmonkey]

anyway, this is just a game. but this is a social game that will stress you out a lot and will trigger a lot of fight or flight from you. keep that in mind and be self-aware. if you find yourself reacting first before thinking, please make one long comprehensive post about what you feel and what you think is happening. leave the game for 12 hours, or just enough for you to RECONSIDER your stances. this game is solved by dialogue, and if you find that it's impossible for anyone to change your mind, then move on and pursue other questions (there are more than one questions in this game, don't focus on just one!)

[humaneatingmonkey]

eew

[humaneatingmonkey]

please never say scum bucket again

[humaneatingmonkey]

what's next scum dumpster

[humaneatingmonkey]

a line must be drawn somewhere

[humaneatingmonkey]

My impression about

LeRea

's #54 was they were loudly announcing that "scum must be here!" to the town so they would look like they're solving, but not following it up with a vote or an actual query because they're not really interested in the answer there. #91 felt sincere enough by tone but unfortunately, they're still not voting towards

RCE

.

LeRea

, did you come from a site where people are more conservative with their votes?

I didn't feel as if

RCE

was grasping at straws.

DkKoba

's early game "found scum" push is familiar to me and I'm familiar with the usual effect it has on the people around it. It's the usual townie response to get some clarification and there's certainly going to be an instinct to feel as if

DkKoba

is scum in that approach. So I don't agree with

Take

's take here.

My top townread is

furtiveglance

. I'm probably going to shut up about this read for a while.

I have a pet scumread that I'm also probably going to shut up about for a while.

[humaneatingmonkey]

It would be nice if you're town here

Koba

. I would love to solve this game with you and see a more charismatic side of you since this is a newbie.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Wow

[humaneatingmonkey]

ooh ooh ah ah

[humaneatingmonkey]

are you pleased crowd

[humaneatingmonkey]

Reading too much as in do you think Bell and I are both town misreading town?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm reading between the lines. If it's not what you meant, you can always clarify. Clearly, it did not communicate the right message to me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I don't even know how I'm "poisoning" the discussion by getting you to tell us what your reads are on me, bell, and larea. I don't know how you'll be "making a bad argument and not maf" by saying that you townread me, bell, or larea. I don't know how you're saying that's a "gotcha". These are things that you just implied in your posts, and I'm asking a question about them because I'm reading between the lines. Now:

1. How do you read me, bell, and larea?
2. How am I "poisoning" the discussion by getting you to tell us what your reads are on me, bell, and larea?
3. How will you be "making a bad argument" by saying you townread me, bell, and larea?
4. And why would that be a gotcha?

These are clear questions that you can answer now.

[humaneatingmonkey]

No I'm trying to get them to focus and understand me by repeating my points.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Thank you. If you're town, by doing that you have just saved us three pages of misunderstanding and fighting over semantics. If you were scum, you would have just provoked me into tunneling you. You will soon see the value of this advice.

Your response was that me saying you and Bell were reading too much into LeRea means I know both of you are town trying to gamesolve and not maf, because maf would never read too much into someone's alignment. This is only possible if I was maf so how is this NOT a gotcha argument?

You are right. This is what I had in mind. But it's not an automatic gotcha because instead of "know", I was considering that they could be genuine reads and I would know more about your POV (alternatively, lock you into a POV if you're scum) by asking you more about them.

Right now, you reacted in a way that feels null-town to me. Defensive town can snap back when they feel they are being set-up for an attack. Meanwhile, scum could also escalate an honest conversational point it into a confident read and ride the momentum so they can feel genuine and "do something" during the day. What made me lean town was how you followed the advice to create a genuine dialogue. But this isn't enough to clear you yet so I can move on to other things. There are other things to see.

And now you know what I'm saying I'm thinking, and now I know what you're saying you're thinking. Good talk.

How do you read me, bell, and lerea?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Did you lean scum on me before #167?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Did you catch that it isn't actually LeRea's first game, but their first game in this site only?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think Koba was just messing with me and was not serious.

[humaneatingmonkey]

furtive what's your read on bell

[humaneatingmonkey]

what about Bell makes you think town

[humaneatingmonkey]

it's because Bell was attacking Koba at the same time you Koba was attacking you, isn't it?
You are so townie that I think if you flipped scum, I will quit this game.

[humaneatingmonkey]

just one question though... are you comfortable in this game? what do you feel about the rest of the players?

[humaneatingmonkey]

You used to read me really really early Koba, are you avoiding me?

[humaneatingmonkey]

is RCE really that townie or am i just charmed because he said he liked me

[humaneatingmonkey]

All the slots i want to prod are probably getting replaced ehh.

same

[humaneatingmonkey]

Not convinced by you bombarding me with the weak questions. It feels like you're trying to look like you're trying to gamesolve without actually doing it.

lol. do you feel bombarded?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm not trolling, I'm just having fun. Take is obviously rubbed by me and I have no idea why. I've been a crowd pleaser!

[humaneatingmonkey]

Curious where do you think Koba is doing what you're doing because it's not clear to me what you're pertaining

[humaneatingmonkey]

So what's up Koba

[humaneatingmonkey]

If you guys want to know my solve, just ask instead of assuming I don't have anything.

Town:
furtiveglance

Wanna know more, but could be town:
RCEnigma
Take
DkKoba

Wanna know more, could be scum:
Bell
LeRea
TL The Legend
Whiskey Delta's slot

[humaneatingmonkey]

@HEM

Explain why you think furtive is town and why you think those 4 are the best flip choices.

Sure. Look at furtive's recent interaction with Koba. Doesn't that

feel

town? It's an intuition thing you get from playing a lot of games, and I'm not going to say that it's unique to me or that makes me better and you should just believe me. I'm aware intuition isn't the most objective way to clear someone and that's not what I'm doing either. But it's just a feeling of non-malice from the way they explore their questions about the game and the openness of their process despite how exposing it is. Non-malice because they're not twisting their observations to strawman proportions just to mount an explanation why they might townread or scumread someone. And despite the openness in their process, they do not reveal holes in their POV (as in it's still believable that their POV is coming from an uninformed minority). Not the clearest of clear, but I'm not going to flip them D1.

My only reservations on furtive are 1.) they seem very uncomfortable and aware that they are being watched 2.) they have flipped their read on me from not townreading me to townreading me. Both of these have explanations that aren't scum-indicative, and I was waiting for more before pursuing these ideas.

The bottom four are there from PoE (process of elimination). Everyone starts out in the bottom tier until I get nuggets from their play that improves my read. If you wanna ask me how my read for each slot developed, you can go ahead.

Despite having a "bottom four" (but really a bunch of wannaknows), I'm not endorsing any flips right now since we have barely got this day phase moving. Peak mafia still isn't happening and I'm still waiting for more to happen. This isn't it.

Right now, I'm thinking about Koba right now since they're using a thing

they

do to read me rather than the things

i

do to read me. Seems like a weird way to scumread me, and he doesn't have a shortage of meta to read me from. I also find it weird that they are framing my play as creating mental load when I've made myself pretty opaque and understandable so far.

Does everyone else agree that I'm making myself hard to understand?

[humaneatingmonkey]

To be specific, I'm waiting for every slot to be active. Another easy way to lose as town is town infighting as they focus on arguing amongst themselves and letting the scum slot skirt away unnoticed just because they're not playing.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I mixed and matched my phrases there and I would like to assume everyone's mature enough to forgive that

- uninformed

majority

, not uniformed minority
-

transparent

and understadable, not opaque and understandable.

[humaneatingmonkey]

i've experienced koba at least four times as both alignment

[humaneatingmonkey]

im not gonna sit here and proclaim myself as koba expert when koba probably has a lot of cards on their sleeves. i just have a baseline on what their beats usually are.

[humaneatingmonkey]

okay so im good at mafia. why does that make me mafia right now?

[humaneatingmonkey]

im not gonna sit here and proclaim myself as koba expert when koba probably has a lot of cards on their sleeves. i just have a baseline on what their beats usually are.

Is Scum!Koba also more comfortable being the loudest voice in the town? I havent played against or with scum!koba. I would imagine their play follows the same patterns as either alignment but I dont really know.

Yep. Scum!Koba is bold as fuck.

[humaneatingmonkey]

That being said - my vibe on HEM is that they are trying to look like they are solving by asking a lot of questions while the real goal is to waste time and divert attention. It looks towny on the surface - and its a great mafia tactic(i use it myself) but I'm worried that

i dont get the impression HEM is actualy trying to solve anything.

Bell is my second scumread atp in that I don't feel the towny energy that he has when he is town.
The best way for me to sort him is pressure(for me) and seeing how he reacts and so far I'm not impressed. I can show receipts of this working fwiw. He has improved as mafia and is better but observant players like myself still see it.

The reason i shifted from bell to HEM was because HEM dropped into my PoE due to how they were treating others.

If I'm mafia? Sure it can be because I'm trying to powerscum my way to not get eliminated - but I feel that my progression is clear and that my mafia playstyle is not concerned with early votes - in fact my go to is to ignore and let the pressure dissapate.

I recognize my playstyle easily attracts scumreads from people who don't know my meta - but I'm an open book player. If you are confused why i did something, i can usually explain, even if it is to admit "i honestly dont know"(which happens to town more often than not!!)

- If I'm scum for not solving anything, then that's not valid anymore because I released a read list and a solve. Do you think I faked that on the spot? Do you think they weren't genuine? If not, how do you think that is?
- In what way does how I treat others indicative that I am scum? I have not seen you explain this.

Let's figure out why you're very confident that I'm scum here that you haven't been able to townread me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

hem commit to a read on me. Now.

You are either town who was traumatized by my scumplay and now trying to get rid of me just so you can say you're a kingslayer.
Or you're scum with an insincere scumread on me who is trying to fan town paranoia on me

[humaneatingmonkey]

hem is trying to egg on the scumreads towards me without actual critical analysis or commitment on me btw so he can help push a mislim through on me likely. Mistake because i am unlimmable on day 1 unless i allow it if im scum

am i egging it on by being asked and answering truthfully? have i not answered truthfully?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I have no interest in wordplay or semantics

Me too. If you can point which argument I'm making right now are based on wordplay or semantics, I will immediately drop it.

[humaneatingmonkey]

If my answers make you doubt your scumread on me then good, it's working.

[humaneatingmonkey]

He isn't E-1, right?

Would be a bad thing to hammer immediately

It would be. It would also be premature since some of the slots have not been present yet and will set a bad example.
It would also flip town.

[humaneatingmonkey]

If my answers make you doubt your scumread on me then good, it's working.

It doesn’t. I barely have a scum read on you in the first place. But your posts are not making you seem more or less town. Maybe slightly less. Because they feel poorly focused.
To copy your style of presenting information you appear sensitive.
Would you say you’re sensitive as either alignment?

I'm an emotional player.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm not claiming. Get your votes away from my wagon.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I have no idea how to read BBT's entrance other than the fact it's anti-town and pro-scum. Are you this trigger-happy as town, BBT?

[humaneatingmonkey]

He isn't E-1, right?

Would be a bad thing to hammer immediately

You at least understand that it's a bad thing to hammer immediately. It would be not that hard to extrapolate that giving scum the chance to lolhammer and get away with it is a bad thing too.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Not to mention, not every slot has been present... so if you want "more information" then you've played counterproductively.

[humaneatingmonkey]

No, the problem with a lolhammer is it becomes obscured with WIFOM immediately.

There is no information and an early day end denies information. You are defending your stance without having read the thread... or have you been lying about not reading the thread?

[humaneatingmonkey]

It isn't always the case and it puts us in an unnecessary position, and that's my problem. I'd rather you read the thread and give us the information we need by commenting on the events of the game.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think newbscum would make personality comments on their partner to stay neutral and flexible actually. The image they present is very negative and there's nothing positive said but "it hurts their brain". I don't see that as a reasonable progression at all. This is still true regardless if Koba is their partner.

[humaneatingmonkey]

My #355 is talking about TL's #244 and addressing Koba's #352

[humaneatingmonkey]

woah did you just say the ooh ooh ahh ahh

[humaneatingmonkey]

I will join the wagon, but not before the slots are here.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Can anyone answer me why they aren't considering Bell at all btw - considering yknow

they are the most obvious scum in the room and they have a polarized meta and one can literally just read a game from them and see?

like in case you dont believe me here is me sniping bell early game and then bell posts out of it (because he is evolved as a scum player now and is not as easy) : viewtopic.php?f=83&t=89010

I do consider it

I will join the wagon, but not before the slots come back.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Both Bell and TL

[humaneatingmonkey]

hem commit to a read on me. Now.

You are either town who was traumatized by my scumplay and now trying to get rid of me just so you can say you're a kingslayer.
Or you're scum with an insincere scumread on me who is trying to fan town paranoia on me

Nope nope nope. This post bothers me a lot. It’s whacko and trying to get under their skin to doubt their read.

If my answers make you doubt your scumread on me then good, it's working.

It doesn’t. I barely have a scum read on you in the first place. But your posts are not making you seem more or less town. Maybe slightly less. Because they feel poorly focused.
To copy your style of presenting information you appear sensitive.
Would you say you’re sensitive as either alignment?

Does anyone else agree with these posts? Obviously I can't assess my posts much objectively because I'm a bit biased, but if no one else felt this way then this is scum faking a read trying to get on the HEM wagon as it builds.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I’m cool with getting HEM to claim and then killing them.
I prefer fast games to slow ones these days.


Koba: he is saying water is wet and for all they know it might be a good thing for them to be hammered immediately. They’re acting dense on purpose for like, no immediately obvious purpose.

this is simultaneously allowing my fast elim and sussing BBT for their hop in.
i don't think that's a natural stance town can have in that specific situation.
i believe you can only have either, but not both of these stances.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Your posts are right there and they speak for themselves. I am asking for others to weigh in so I can see if this is passable as an organic read.
Do you have anything to clarify?

[humaneatingmonkey]

how do you both think BBT is scum trying to elim me, and think it's good for me to be fast elimmed there? can you bring nuance there?

[humaneatingmonkey]

But also let's eliminate the water that isn't wet... does that fit in your metaphor?

[humaneatingmonkey]

do you think BBT and I are partnered?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think Koba means this game where we immediately deduce TL/Bell.

[humaneatingmonkey]

To me it just looks like you’re muddying the waters and either achieving poor results or are scum derailing wagons on scum to move them on town

Why don't you paint a clear picture for us to see

- Where can we see Koba muddying waters?
- Where can we see Koba derailing wagons on scum (who's scum?)?
- Who's town?

[humaneatingmonkey]

1. I guess it must be pretty hard to see all the mud with the clarity you have from your role pm?
2. Not me.
3. Me.

1. No, just want to see which posts strike you as Koba specifically trying to muddy the waters.
2. & 3. So, did you believe I am scum and that Koba is scum trying to get the votes on my wagon towards me?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Take I don't townread BBT yet but also your cited reasons for scumreading them aren't alignment indicative — especially not scum-indicative because it's an instant target on their back (but could be faked to "play inside" their meta). Sometimes town can do this too and it's born out of a reckless playstyle. If you want to improve your read on BBT, it would serve you better to scrub his past games and see if it's a pattern in his town games.

[humaneatingmonkey]

The best I can say about HEM is that they're trying to seem reasonable but their hearts not in the hunting process. I see curiosity but no real excitement. It could be an ego thing though, but I feel that might be unintentionally hurtful to say. Their approach very much appears to be examining other people's reasoning and pointing out that, in fact all of our actions day 1 are mere beliefs/assumptions/bullshit if you ask why enough. Which is cool. That's true, but...like, they're not doing anything with that, nor do they appear to be examining the bullsshit to see which ones seem especially scummy. Which might just be because they're scum themselves.

this post is hilarious. thanks for the chuckles, bell.

[humaneatingmonkey]

idk Koba hasn't stopped me from finding scum thus far. i dont know if anyone really feels like that about Koba other than you.

[humaneatingmonkey]

UNVOTE: LeRea

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think it's just Bell and TL. Gonna have to wait for that TL slot.

[humaneatingmonkey]

We're well past RVS now. I'd like to see more thought out reasons for starting and joining wagons than "its X or Y" otherwise we're not gonna make any progress.
This applies to most of you.

You can always iso me and see my progression

[humaneatingmonkey]

at least I get the feeling he's trying to gamesolve

Where do you see this? I ask because I share the opposite view.

[humaneatingmonkey]

DKKoba is the same as Bell except that I think them flipping would give us more info

Why are you treating Koba and Bell differently as slots if they give off the same vibe?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Bell I don't like some of him posts but I think its more playstyle related than alignment related, at least I get the feeling he's trying to gamesolve
DKKoba is the same as Bell except that I think them flipping would give us more info

I'm talking about how you think Koba's flip will give us more info than Bell's flip, whose elimination you didn't endorse.

I also wanted to talk to you about your furtive read. How did that develop?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Here 441 he gives an elaborate read on you that I shared but didn't communicate. It shows he's making an effort trying to figure out people's elignment.

His post mentioned that he doesn't think my heart's in the scumhunting process. "Curiosity but no real excitement". He said they're not doing anything with that, nor do they appear to be examining the bullshit to see which ones seem especially scummy. His conclusion is I'm scum.

1. #471 you said that what you said in #463 doesn't apply especially to me. It implies that you think I've been active and I've been telegraphing my reads/progression. How can you agree to the above quote if you think this about me?
2. Which posts of mine prior to Bell's 441 makes you agree with the above quote?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Take your time. That's all the questions I have. All there page 20, top posts. Feel free to answer them at your own convenience.

[humaneatingmonkey]

standing by for TL's slot.

[humaneatingmonkey]

"refuse to explain themselves"
anyone else think like this about me? if then, please ask that question so i can clarify myself.

Bell, let's not imagine. If you can create a perfectly logical argument to kill Koba, I will listen to you.
Also, Why is that a bad unvote?

Surely furtive means they don't like it in a game-relevant alignment-indicative manner, and not in a personal manner. Saying something is "flimsy" and "lamist" looks game-relevant and alignment-indicative to me. Let's not use AtE to drag down newbies here, let's reserve that for the normal queue.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I want to remind everyone to refrain from using pointed language and escalating petty conflicts in favor of a clean, rational dialogue.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Fuck you

[humaneatingmonkey]

I don't townread LeRea yet. I want to give them space to catch up, and I think their response to me was satisfying but not strongly alignment-indicative. They're in my PoE, but in the outskirts.

This is where I am right now:

Probably not voting out off the game:
furtiveglance

Gotta watch out, but won't vote out D1:
Koba
RCE

Gotta watch out, and can still vote out D1:
Take
TL
LeRea
BBT

Can vote out D1:
Bell

Each category is also in order from top to down, but only subjectively I guess. Bell's flip is game-defining, I think. No way I leave D1 without hardpushing their elim.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Bell is already a strong coalition of 3 — me, Koba, furtive. I can probably swing BBT or RCE to vote and hammer. He's not going anywhere, and we can defocus there. I'm more interested in hearing from the slots we haven't yet.

A TL wagon is making me nervous about who wants to be there. (BBT and Take) I will also refuse to vote there if the replacement (looks like they're going to be replaced) looks better. I will err towards voting off Bell than a lurking slot.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Slot isn't even lurking, just flaked off the face of the Earth.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Bell you've made little sense and your angles have only been predatory so far with little backbone behind your stances.

I'm citing
1.) how you antagonized Koba with little reason in the early game
2.) how you tried to provoke me upon my entrance by implying I'm an idiot
3.) how you said my entrance was "pure drivel" which you've never followed up on
4.) how you tried to sow discord between me and koba by saying my answers were "manipulative"
5.) how you tried to take advantage of BBT's fake E-1 vote to announce that you're both okay with me claiming while simultaneously shading BBT for it

None have shared your reads, except for Take whose answers were shady at best (accusing me of weak questions, when those questions have already been explained and lead to reads) and whose alignment will probably be clearer upon your flip.

You've lacked the defensive instinct of a townie being attacked when you haven't even developed a solid read on the three core people trying to get you out of this game. Your read on Koba is vague and personality-based. You have also been accusing me of "not having my heart in solving" which might be the most ridiculous way of describing my play in this game where I've intentionally decided to explain my process and be transparent in my reads. You've been blaming your lack of solving on Koba but it's clear that you're lagging behind in reads because you can't maintain the illusion that your reads are genuine. Where are you on furtive? Yeah, that's right — he's judgmental which implies you think he's town.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I challenged you to case Koba btw. You dismissed that. I just don't think your heart is in the scumhunting process

[humaneatingmonkey]

I challenged you to case Koba btw. You dismissed that. I just don't think your heart is in the scumhunting process

You sound spiteful my dude.

Just a throwback to that line because it was ridiculous, don't you think?

[humaneatingmonkey]

1. They’re spammy filler questions and you’ve been completely off on who you’ve been suspecting all game. I personally think you’re town.
2. I am being pretty defensive. But I guess you can’t or won’t see that. Though. I argue what the point of being defensive would help.
3. Uh, why is having reads differently from everyone else a bad thing I also mentioned I was pressuring players and largely don’t know who the scum are, so I was trying to figure that out.
4. I don’t remember ever using the word manipulative. Albeit, you have been trying to pocket furtive all game blatantly, but town pocket people too so I let it pass.
5. It looked like a lot of advice frontloaded into the game. A lot of it not applicable or generalizable to everyone.
6. I was pushing the new slot. While being honest about my position.

Sorry I think I missed the context on which numbers address what so I'll just shoot blind.
1. Do you mean Koba's play can be reduced to spammy filler questions — do you think their process isn't genuine?
2. I guess I won't. It's just that there's three people trying to get you out of this game and it's not clear to me that you have pinned which one is scum or if there's scum around your wagon.
3. Yes, that's a bad thing that you don't have at least a PoE.
4. Sorry, yeah you haven't. This is the direct quote:

Nope nope nope. This post bothers me a lot. It’s whacko and trying to get under their skin to doubt their read.

5. It's a newbie game and I'm an SE. It implied you think I was scum-motivated but your next move was vote the same person I was voting. I don't think that's a progression I trust...
6. Sorry clueless what this is referring to.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'll wait for you. I think it's better to choke this game for a bit.

[humaneatingmonkey]

TL did you just steal my scum pool and nullzoned me?

can you tell me why RCE and furtive are your townreads?

[humaneatingmonkey]

TL can you do something for me

Can you check in the thread every once in a while and just be present and react to things. You really don't have to only post walls. You can ask us questions to help you figure out what we're thinking. I understand Bell is iffy on the me coaching thing but this is how I'll play if I find you in the normal queue making my game harder by not being as present as you are.

Put us in a bookmark on your phone browser and just jump in. You don't even have to read everything. Just wanna hang out with you is all.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yep TL sounds sincere as hell Im not gonna touch that today

[humaneatingmonkey]

I have thoughts about Take

[humaneatingmonkey]

I just woke up so you'll have to wait

[humaneatingmonkey]

It's time to pay LaRea attention

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: Bell It's time for this wagon. Toot toot.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Why are you not pushing those people?

[humaneatingmonkey]

@TL: The difference is that for some reason people were pushing for TL to die over LaRea when you're both similar. It didn't add up.

I mean this one, why are you not reading into the people who pushed TL over LaRea if it didn't add up?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba do you still townread Take?

3- If Bell flips town then I'm basically confirmed town, I die N1 and town is back to square 0 with 2 less townies, great fucking plan. It would be fine if I thought he was maf but I don't and you're overly optimistic if you think you're gonna elim maf day 1

I don't believe this is something actual town would think in this situation and I think it was just an attempt at looking town. First, there's no reason for them to think they're confirmed town at Bell's death nor would they say that they'll die here. It tracks with the LAMIST behavior that I've been observing from them ie not playing for a solve but playing to perform. Last sentence is weird in that he really has no business psyching me like this when he should be uninformed re: Bell. It's just too much.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yeah, me of all people.

[humaneatingmonkey]

You're really not gonna sell this idea that I'm not solving like what are you trying to do here

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yeah maybe not Take I guess

[humaneatingmonkey]

It does look like that when you say things like I cited above and how you wanted to push TL and LeRea as inactive slots but didn't make any push on TL upon their arrival or developed your read there made me think that there really was no force behind your position.

Plus you've see-sawed on my slot all day and I was waiting for you to stop engaging the inactive slots and start casing me and it didn't arrive.
But I can see how I could be wrong with this.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Sure. Then case me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Naw he said two townies and also he is townreading bell and has been defending him. i think i could be wrong and there's always a chance of bell/larea

[humaneatingmonkey]

Let's just focus on Bell I guess

[humaneatingmonkey]

Let me see if Im reading you wrong

[humaneatingmonkey]

Still waiting on that case

[humaneatingmonkey]

#474 from Take describes Bell as showing he's making an effort trying to figure out people's alignment.
#486 from Take states Bell flipping doesn't give us anything.
#548 from Take makes the extrapolation that Bell's town flip makes them confirmed town and makes him the N1 kill. He discourages me from pursuing Bell because "I'm overly optimistic if I think I can lim scum D1".
Not even going to include how you don't endorse Bell's elimination but endorse Koba's meanwhile you basically have the same read there. He said we don't get anything from Bell but like he's been the top PoE and I don't buy that Take's not getting anything from that.
This gives me the impression that you're defending Bell and that you've townread Bell.

@RCE Bell isn't even trying to push me, RCE. Only alluded to me being scum, and not much motivation to find the story of me!scum. So I can buy that Take is bad cop and Bell is good cop.

So yeah, I think there's ONE thing that might shake my worldview here and I'm going to keep that card close to my chest first.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Take, you think I'm scum because despite talking to me the whole day I still have the audacity to say you're scum. Is this your case?

[humaneatingmonkey]

oh no what are you going to do with my ass on day 2

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm still thinking about that BBT. I want Bell first. I'm currently talking to people who townread Take to get their take.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Where are you on everyone, BBT?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Oof. Talk to me about Furtive when you can. That guy is the only one townbinned to me, and he says I'm the only one townbinned to him so I'm worried about potential pocketing there. But my money's on him not being scum because I guess you would read my case on it.

[humaneatingmonkey]

That doesn't read like a discredit to me at all but genuine curiosity. It was around the same time that LeRea as a townread perplexed me as well because I mainly saw the angle where they could be scum.

I hope you finish reading soon!

[humaneatingmonkey]

so traumatized

[humaneatingmonkey]

tbh if it's furtive/HEM/Koba, i'll vote off furtive 9/10 of the time.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba you havent commented on Take

[humaneatingmonkey]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Take

I didn't wait. I've been on your tail, remember? It was time for a wagon because it's 2 days left. It was just the right time.

I expected a mason claim tbh. It would explain Take's stance on you and would have shook my worldview. Worldview unshaken. Won't vote you until we get a cc.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Interesting... do you play cam and f2f mafia?

inb4 im spamming weak questions

[humaneatingmonkey]

I can buy your Koba read if only Koba isn't really fun to play with/watch play that I'd rather see until ELo tbh
If Take's wagon doesn't catch popularity, I would even go for LeRea.

I definitely think Koba being too confident in their meta read on Bell will stop being a thing and we'll see more from him.
Tbh I thought Koba's "lack of engagement" is from not wanting to spam and turn people off from a newbie. And also idk if they're trying to remedy a common complaint on their playstyle. Quotation because I don't think it's even lack of engagement at all, just less chaotic energy from them.

They turned away from engaging me (our conversation was developing into a clash) which I also attributed to this. I don't think Koba shies away from a fight regardless of alignment though — but I can't back that up! Need someone to dive meta for me...

[humaneatingmonkey]

They. They. They.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Hi LeRea

I'm so sorry you're sick
I hope you recover and we play with each other again

[humaneatingmonkey]

As your wagon built up and there seemingly was no friction aside from Take going all his way to defend you (he claims he didn't but he was totally defending you), I thought it's either you're scum or the slim chance you could be masons with Take and I fucked up. Made a gamble. Still wrong. I'm now thinking it could still be that Take's whiteknighting you after all.

Look, you were really scummy and I was totally open in my process with you. Sorry I was wrong. But your scumminess was palpable and I am skeptical that Take is blind to it/has a different angle to it. Check your tail, we all can't be scum here.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Note that he rejects the description that he was townreading you and that he was defending you. What could his behavior around your slot be about or be coming from?

3- If Bell flips town then I'm basically confirmed town, I die N1 and town is back to square 0 with 2 less townies, great fucking plan. It would be fine if I thought he was maf but I don't and you're overly optimistic if you think you're gonna elim maf day 1

Where is this coming from?

Do you see where I'm going with this?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Naw he said two townies and also he is townreading bell and has been defending him. i think i could be wrong and there's always a chance of bell/larea

I have NEVER said i townread bell in the entire game. I shared my thoughts that I didn't think he was scummy and YOU made me look like I was defending him by asking to justify my read on him non-stop.

See here?

I'm really not sure what to make of it, and I'll be glad to step off from the podium to give it to someone else on the account that I was wrong about you. But if I have something here, I need you to confirm it.

[humaneatingmonkey]

In 548, how would he say that he's basically confirmed town upon your town flip? It was that he understands that what he's doing was defending you.

It's also in re-reading 548 that I got the idea that you could be masons.

[humaneatingmonkey]

So... RCE vs Koba. Where are you on that?

I'm just going to take advantage of you being here before you're inevitably utterly murderized

[humaneatingmonkey]

This post was from a different conversation where you interjected when I was giving my case to Bell.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Didn't you just say you weren't defending him

[humaneatingmonkey]

No, but you said I didn't have anything to stand on but this entire thing is already moot if you already admit to defending them.

The entire thing is if you were town just defending a slot you think is town or if you're scum trying to whiteknight, citing other times i thought you could be scum.

What I can't understand is why you wouldn't just admit it if you're town and resort to OMGUSing me at the first chance I discuss my read on you with other people.
Just makes it harder for me to townread you.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Alright Koba, time to rub your hands together and show us some magic.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I want to murder Koba!

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba thanks for stroking my ego and hyping up my scum game but I'm really just town here

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yeah I've seen you do weird shit with claims Koba
But I still want to murder you!

[humaneatingmonkey]

Be extra critical of his pushes if you choose to keep him alive. Do not let him skate by.

I recommend everyone do this to everyone, not just me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

How do you know there wasn't a doctor Furtive.
gottem'.

holy shit

[humaneatingmonkey]

I can go there but I'm wary of scumslips like that because they're unreliable. Mistakes happen.

[humaneatingmonkey]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87005
This is how much of an asshole Koba is. Hijacked the game with a fake claim and left the town to rot for their own solve. They were Taco Hemingway.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I asked Koba to give us some magic and they delivered. Thanks boss.

[humaneatingmonkey]

YOU MEAN IM ONE VOTE AWAY FROM MURDERING YOU, KOBA??

[humaneatingmonkey]

oh UNVOTE: talk your talk koba.

goddamnit i wanted to terrorize koba more

[humaneatingmonkey]

We're still killing Koba

[humaneatingmonkey]

Hey it's my fuck up stop taking credit

Also you lockscummed me so I really don't think you're as good as you say you are if you are town

[humaneatingmonkey]

It was literally my legwork that got us into this situation

[humaneatingmonkey]

Your stance on Take was "give it time" with a dirty naughty wink

[humaneatingmonkey]

Your read is literally to kill me next.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Produce a furtive team that isn't with me and I'll take you more seriously

[humaneatingmonkey]

using zoomer phrases now you cant fool me i know you're at least mid-millenial

[humaneatingmonkey]

Furtive + someone else thats not me
I want your top tier town thoughts notice me

[humaneatingmonkey]

Still not sold on furtive despite the 'scum slip' because it's very easy to make a mistake like that. If there's something outside of this, I will listen to it.

Also I refuse Koba thinks I'm scum when I practically did the legwork of a read that they were super confident about and 'keeping hush' about (Bell/TL). They can't. They would townread that.

Koba wouldn't lockscum me just because I'm snakey or some shit. That's beside the point. Of course, I'm good with people. I'm good as scum. Why does that make me scum now? They wouldn't come up with an ass read like that.

So definitely still think Koba is scum here despite their propensity for claim hijinks as town. Remember: They can replicate their town game. Having ready-made defenses based on meta when you do shit like this is part of the play. I do not think they thought there were town masons. I think it's a Row C situation where they decided to cc the cop on the off chance that there's only a vanilla townie pair (being informed about setup and what mafia prs they have). Then use the exact defense they're doing here to survive post-flip.

But also yeah they cc'd a cop in a Newbie. Why wouldn't they just wait for someone else to counterclaim? Bell was conftown without a cc and they didn't need to fake a cc to solve Bell's slot. I don't think that passes over Koba's head.

I just really think Koba is scum here guys.

[humaneatingmonkey]

HEM, if not Koba, who?

rce + furtive/lerea/tl? complete hip shoot. i do not think they're scummy right now, but definitely i think you're least likely to have been defending town!koba if you were scum. rce just because i think he can pull off a game good enough for me to townread and furtive-lerea-tl are poe'd with lerea probably the likeliest.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I think HEM's shift in tact after Furtive saw a slight uptick in chance of being eliminated to call me mafia after having tried to position himself in a way to say "i knew koba was town!"

This didn't happen?

see:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87005
This is how much of an asshole Koba is. Hijacked the game with a fake claim and left the town to rot for their own solve. They were Taco Hemingway.

I asked Koba to give us some magic and they delivered. Thanks boss.

uhm.. i thought you were still scum and i wanted to murder you. the link because meta was being discussed and i'm not above reevaluation. and the magic is the fun you always bring to the game, dear koba.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Interesting.

You really don't think scum!BBT defends what looks like a slam dunk town!Koba elim?

I think you would have learned the lesson somewhere

[humaneatingmonkey]

HEM, if not Koba, who?

rce + furtive/lerea/tl?

complete hip shoot. i do not think they're scummy right now, but definitely i think you're least likely to have been defending town!koba if you were scum. rce just because i think he can pull off a game good enough for me to townread and furtive-lerea-tl are poe'd with lerea probably the likeliest.

so the plan is...,

mislim rce

mislim lerea

bus furtive

try to mislim in limlo

i see

yes. that's still a plan that makes sense for you for god-like monkey king scum? and to announce it out loud?
get outta here

[humaneatingmonkey]

you're so in love with my scum game
it's flattering
thank you

[humaneatingmonkey]

Fuck me, the more I read that CC the worse it gets.

Is scum Koba trying to out a potential Doc? Is he just hoping it's C1 and no-one else is aware.

Fuckkkkkk

im glad im getting through

[humaneatingmonkey]

How are people saying that I'm not genuine when I articulate their reads before they say they have those reads

[humaneatingmonkey]

Either I'm uninformed or informed
Hello

[humaneatingmonkey]

Yes!

Still not sold on furtive despite the 'scum slip' because it's very easy to make a mistake like that. If there's something outside of this, I will listen to it.

Also I refuse Koba thinks I'm scum when I practically did the legwork of a read that they were super confident about and 'keeping hush' about (Bell/TL). They can't. They would townread that.

Koba wouldn't lockscum me just because I'm snakey or some shit. That's beside the point. Of course, I'm good with people. I'm good as scum. Why does that make me scum now? They wouldn't come up with an ass read like that.

So definitely still think Koba is scum here despite their propensity for claim hijinks as town. Remember: They can replicate their town game. Having ready-made defenses based on meta when you do shit like this is part of the play. I do not think they thought there were town masons. I think it's a Row C situation where they decided to cc the cop on the off chance that there's only a vanilla townie pair (being informed about setup and what mafia prs they have). Then use the exact defense they're doing here to survive post-flip.

But also yeah they cc'd a cop in a Newbie. Why wouldn't they just wait for someone else to counterclaim? Bell was conftown without a cc and they didn't need to fake a cc to solve Bell's slot. I don't think that passes over Koba's head.

I just really think Koba is scum here guys.

[humaneatingmonkey]

lie about how HEM was the loudest pusher there

Hey Bell and Take.. who is your loudest pusher?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba I think it's better for town if we were yeeted off D1 and D2 regardless of alignment

[humaneatingmonkey]

hello koba
it's me, mr mc hammer

[humaneatingmonkey]

is furtive + rc possible?

[humaneatingmonkey]

no bueno. im town. talk to me or im gonna hammer.

[humaneatingmonkey]

if you're town, you're wrong. ask for spoilers on your way out and then bookmark this game as another piece of evidence of why you need to switch your game up. im right here asking to engage you and you refuse to talk options with me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: Koba

[humaneatingmonkey]

Go get the mod

[humaneatingmonkey]

I guess we all need to learn in a newbie

[humaneatingmonkey]

see you post game!

[humaneatingmonkey]

lol

[humaneatingmonkey]

i dont care what's a "scum claim" or not. even if there's a chance koba is town here, i'm pretty set on flipping them because they're pretty tunneled on me and I don't really need that type of distraction moving forward. the case against them as scum is still strong, and they're going to be hard to figure out through the game. if you really think i'm scum, then go sell whatever case you can sell to those who wants to wagon me. maybe i'll change my mind if you can build that furtive wagon and they flip scum. for now, i'm good

[humaneatingmonkey]

You've been trying to get furtive out of the game why don't you just do it. i believe you have the numbers.

tl doesn't want to vote koba
you
koba
you can probably sway bell and take if you can convince them that koba is town

you dont have to harrass me to unvote. i believe in you.

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: furtiveglance

here's my vote. im gonna sleep for 8 hours and if i come back to this thread after i wake up i'm going back to koba.
enjoy bbt.

[humaneatingmonkey]

bbt
you
tl
me
someone who wants an elim

that's gonna happen if you work hard and reach for your dreams

[humaneatingmonkey]

so go get it, go getter!

[humaneatingmonkey]

if furtive flips scum, you all can flip me tomorrow. if furtive flips town, then we get koba tomorrow. we'll still have the votes. simple.

[humaneatingmonkey]

VOTE: Koba I'm so sorry for voting you furtive

[humaneatingmonkey]

self hammer

[humaneatingmonkey]

is koba hammered yet?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba you're gonna feel real stupid when you ask GeorgeBailey for spoilers
Understand that it's

all you

[humaneatingmonkey]

BBT, is that post from Rad town?

[humaneatingmonkey]

furtive you do understand from my pov you could still be scum?

my vote on you was to pressure you and get you to talk out of your comfort zone, and also push BBT to create a counterwagon. the play is creating information for me to process.

ez.

so what did i do that no town would do?

[humaneatingmonkey]

I understand I'm today's miselim target. Then Take is probably gone tonight. This means if things didn't turn out well or even if we miselim someone else, this is probably the last day before ELO — so please use this day wisely. Get a confident read on everyone. This is not a day to rush.

I think everything I've done yesterday is defensible and I'm confident I can show everyone I'm town.

Everyone buys the idea that I'm some godlike scum, right?

I articulated DkKoba's read (town) before they even acted upon it or even mentioned it. (I had Bell and Take as scum/masons, same as Koba)
No one else caught on to it and my process was there for everyone to see.
Originality like that is impossible to fake as scum. Much less mindmelding with town.

What else?

Eliminating Koba was not the optimal strategy for scum!me. They flip will immediately tag me as scum, especially with the tunnelling. Yet I seemingly have done so to the expense of being in today's spotlight. Not only that, DkKoba was an easy mislim to set up for future days. Bonus points, I

KNOW

that backing off from Koba would have earned me a pocket. And having self-destructive town on your pocket is better than miselimming them.

Scum!me would have never relentlessly pushed Koba. Would I have choices? Yes. Furtive and BBT.

Furtive, if you are town, then I could have set you up for elimination as early as the mason reveal. It was an opportunity to switch my reads because I hit town, and if you really believe that you were widely townread, then I would have miselimmed obvtown.

BBT would have been easy to eliminate as well. furtive + RCE + Bell + Take + me.

Thing is, Day 1, scum!me does not take the route that will destroy my game. Scum!me Day 1 would have played backing vocals and kept the mason read quiet (not push it for a reveal, which is also -negative utility for scum!me because I would have the smokescreen of 2 days before I'm placed in anyone's PoE).

It's your choice to believe this. Check my iso. Tell me a story about why I'm scum, and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I read HEM as scum here. I feel like his contributions were mostly mentor level stuff. If I had his level of knowledge, it's exactly how I would play as scum, especially in a newbie game where that advice should come across as welcome (and seems to be legit advice from what I can tell). I will say though that 529 and [p]537[/p] struck me as an "oh shit am I misreading this guy" moment where it was almost like he turned on townie pressure mode hardcore out of nowhere. Those are his stand-out posts for me though. [p]1043[/p] was a weird policy type setup that felt like he was setting up an excuse for a green flip and I got that same sort of response from scum!BBT in my previous game where he was openly happy to vote someone he read as town for self-preservation. I know the scenario isn't identical but that's what popped into my head while reading it. I don't understand the switch to furtive in [p]1053[/p] at all.

I think this "mostly mentor stuff" read is impossible to give me if you actually read my posts as town. I made the most plays yesterday (I don't think anyone can argue against that).
If you are going for a scumread, it should have been "scum who was predatory (my push on Koba) and opportunistic (my vote on furtive) and revealed the masons (my push on Bell and Take)".
None of these were even discussed. Your read on me sounds like the read of someone who made up their reads on me.

VOTE: Rad

[humaneatingmonkey]

Still not sold on furtive despite the 'scum slip' because it's very easy to make a mistake like that. If there's something outside of this, I will listen to it.

Also I refuse Koba thinks I'm scum when I practically did the legwork of a read that they were super confident about and 'keeping hush' about (Bell/TL). They can't. They would townread that.

Koba wouldn't lockscum me just because I'm snakey or some shit. That's beside the point. Of course, I'm good with people. I'm good as scum. Why does that make me scum now? They wouldn't come up with an ass read like that.

So definitely still think Koba is scum here despite their propensity for claim hijinks as town. Remember: They can replicate their town game. Having ready-made defenses based on meta when you do shit like this is part of the play. I do not think they thought there were town masons. I think it's a Row C situation where they decided to cc the cop on the off chance that there's only a vanilla townie pair (being informed about setup and what mafia prs they have). Then use the exact defense they're doing here to survive post-flip.

But also yeah they cc'd a cop in a Newbie. Why wouldn't they just wait for someone else to counterclaim? Bell was conftown without a cc and they didn't need to fake a cc to solve Bell's slot. I don't think that passes over Koba's head.

I just really think Koba is scum here guys.

i dont care what's a "scum claim" or not. even if there's a chance koba is town here, i'm pretty set on flipping them because they're pretty tunneled on me and I don't really need that type of distraction moving forward. the case against them as scum is still strong, and they're going to be hard to figure out through the game. if you really think i'm scum, then go sell whatever case you can sell to those who wants to wagon me. maybe i'll change my mind if you can build that furtive wagon and they flip scum. for now, i'm good

why did you hammer?
these are posts that clearly defined where my head was, and you had nothing to say about them at the time.
koba's green flip isn't as obvious as you say it is. if you're town and you confidently read koba as town, your hammer is evidence that even you doubted yourself.

[humaneatingmonkey]

this was a scum read from someone who is supposedly very good at reading.

who says im very good at reading are you trying to shade me?

This is not a day to rush.

I think your vote on me less than 2 hours into d2 is cute though.

It's not ELO. You ARE trying to shade me.

[humaneatingmonkey]

what i'm good at as town is generating content and pushing slots and town leadership. a quick scrub of my meta will reveal exactly that.

[humaneatingmonkey]

You really should have been able to read Koba as town and I won't be removing my vote off of you Today.

Let's assume you're town.

Even so, you chose the elimination of town over no elimination.

You're not even that sure

.
furtive was right there. Like I told you, furtive's elimination was always in your reach. Then why couldn't that have been your move if you were so sure that Koba is town?
You're not sure Koba is town, then imagine me who absolutely have valid reasons to scumread Koba?
You can't use that logic against me and if you're still voting me despite of that, then let it be known.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm town as fuck as it's super obvious.

Debatable. It's unclear to me right now if you're town or you're scum. It's the you pushing me.

I tried to go for Furtive

Who did you talk to and try to recruit into your wagon?

You had no reasons to scum read Koba

Untrue. I had lots of reasons to scumread Koba. Didn't I just quote it? Why don't you go over each of my points and tell me why they're invalid?

used the opportunity of his horrific CC to push him because you knew he would be pushing for your elim and you didn't want that.

Yes, I used to opportunity to push them because I thought there was a decent chance they were scum. I want to protect myself from shit pushes (Koba's entire case on me is that furtive gave me away and that I'm good as scum — that's shit) because I value my slot and if they will tunnel me all game, it's a net loss on town.

[humaneatingmonkey]

OMGUS is not alignment indicative and if you scrub my recent games, that's what you'll learn as well.

The second leg that Koba's case is standing on is furtive giving me away. Nearing the end of the day, they changed their mind on furtive but insisted that I could still be scum. That's the type of play that will guarantee a shitty game because they will never listen to me if town and if their push is shitty they're likely to be scum anyway.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba can definitely fake something like that what do you mean

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba is not some transparent read, BBT. They were always crafty in how they use outrage to get people off their wagon and I don't think I've caught them break character until flip. Don't tell me there's no way.

[humaneatingmonkey]

I'm surprised Bell died and not me and it pisses me off that Koba pulled that stunt as town.
I'm 90% sure HEM is maf. You've been very opportunistic throughout day 1 while hiding behind a pro-town facade.

Trust the 10%. I will flip town.

I agree it does look opportunistic when I switched to furtive but I maintain that I did it for the gamestate. Even BBT sees that there was no counterwagon on Koba, furtive was the alternative scumread that i was worrying was pocketing me, and I wanted to see what happens if I provoke BBT to push furtive. Other than that. I don't think there's anything else you can point in my ISO that was opportunistic.

[humaneatingmonkey]

Other than that, if you think about it, if my goal was to elim Koba... why do the hassle of switching to furtive and make myself look scummy?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Answer this Take: Between you and Bell, who do you think would push their scumread more relentlessly?

[humaneatingmonkey]

Koba can definitely fake something like that what do you mean

Yeah, but even before that I was town reading him so...yeah, I felt like you really should have picked up that Koba was town at some point.

And I'm telling you, the point never happened. I was trying to engage them and take them away from their tunnel by asking them to produce alternate reads and discuss them with me but they rebuffed me. There was no townreading Koba at that point.