Newbie 2100 | Town wins

[Greeting]

VOTE: Wayward Son

Hello everyone! If it's your first game, welcome to MafiaScum. If it's your second, third, fourth or even fifth game, glad you stayed around!

I am an SE player, which stands for Semi-Experienced player. This means that I have played enough games on this site to not qualify for Newbie status anymore. If you received a green role in your PM, that means we're on the same team. If you need help about what you should be doing right now, ask in-thread and you shall receive.

The first phase of the game is called RVS, which stands for random voting stage. We still have nothing to go with, so we just vote for random people. Eventually, actual reads should naturally emerge.

Most importantly, remember that this is a game and you should have fun!

[Greeting]

VOTE: Emollient for putting someone at e-2 so early.

We're still in RVS. Why so serious?

It's not really serious.

It may not seem serious, but maybe it does deserve taking a closer look. In my experience, it's not uncommon for a slot to get 2 votes in RVS in a 9p setup, but 3? Starts getting into dangerous territory.

Now keeping tabs on the early

Tejate Raichu

wagon.

[Greeting]

VOTE: Greeting OMGUS

I just finished reading 2095 last night. Congrats.

Thank you! I see you're doing your research. I generally prioritise meta of players I've been in games with over meta as a general read. Reading games I've not been in usually bores me, unless I've committed to spectating the game.

I dislike rolling scum in general. But when I do, I still do my best to win. Referring to the aforementioned game, Newbie 2095 turned out to be an overall enjoyable experience though.

[Greeting]

Personally, I don't think a newbie to the site but not the game would be likely to hammer RVS wagon, so I really don't see the issue with myself being put to E-2. I can understand the concern though, I wouldn't really encourage it.

It happened to me in one game, albeit it wasn't a Newbie game (I think it was Mini Normal 2257). I got hammered fast in Day 1 as a VT, half the votes on me were from RVS and mafia were on my wagon.

For what it's worth, as to what Greeting says in 23, I really don't think E-2 during RVS is "dangerous territory". Even though this is a newbie game, I think it's pretty well understood that quickhammering on D1 would mean doom, especially not even 50 posts in.

Holding players accountable for miseliminations, even when they are fast and unfounded is surprisingly uncommon in mafia games here. That's my personal experience.

[Greeting]

Also, KittyTacky, what are your thoughts so far reading back through the thread? And is there a reason you didn't vote anyone in your opening?

I second this question.

Any thoughts on the thread so far,

KittyTacky

?

[Greeting]

Agreed, very strange wording. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to press on this topic, though.

KittyTacky

uses strange wording in general (personal meta experience, played with him before and have seen him play).

It's not the wording that's worrying me though, it's the general lack of content.

[Greeting]

UNVOTE: Wayward Son

@ Greeting or anyone.

How do we jump start a slow game? I AM Town, and I wanna win.

Make reads. RVS votes are most often random, but not always. Plus, I don't think

all

votes that are cast right now are RVS votes.

Does any voting or posting pattern stand out to you in particular? Start a discussion. People will follow.

I already have early reads and will post them in a second.

[Greeting]

Early townleans:

Wayward Son

- Easily the towniest ISO so far in this game, committed to making meta reads (20), progressing the game (65). The second one is more important, as dead games always favour scum who can hide in the shadows and do nothing. It's uncommon for mafia-aligned players, especially newbies to have the drive to make fake progress in a game.

I don't necessarily agree with the

Tejate Raichu

townread (63) though. Why?

CornPuffBuddha

- Weaker townread than the latter, nonetheless shows traces of actual analysis of the gameplay (29).

A question for you though, why do you think

BloodB0t

is "unusually passive"? Have you played with them before? (44)

[Greeting]

I would say that a lot of players in this game are "unusually passive". Let's start with the SEs. I've already asked

Kitty

.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

Hi there! Now that I've got your attention, what are your reads on the game so far?

[Greeting]

I'm dumb and new!

Looking at ISOs right now.

- Calum is fast: first post, and already reading a scumteam (and its associated strategy "choose one of them" in #58).
- Greeting doesn't seem to be trying to read anything at all.
- Buddha tends to describe things from the above, delivering top-down analysis.
- Salsabil made only 2 (almost) empty posts (like Kitty).
- BloodBot started posting with a high frequency, then slowed down abruptly.
- Tejate shows a natural equilibrium in posting behavior. I'm blind here.
- Wayward has been taking his time, then strikes surprisingly in #68.
- Kitty made only 2 (almost) empty posts (like Salsabil).

@Wayward, am I using the right pronoun?
@Wayward, "Preview is my friend" → "absoluto" was on purpose (but ok, not funny after all)

I'm sceptical towards these kinds of posts. Summaries of everything that went on in the game with little analysis/interpretation. Gives out the impression of activity without producing actual content.

[Greeting]

1. Re:65>> Buddy attempt to town!Greeting or scum-theatre attempt with scum!Greeting. The underlined part is read to me like what a (newb) scum would say, "Look, I'm town!". [There is a term here for it, can't remember]

How often would you say scum theatre happens on Day 1 page 1/2 in your experience?

[Greeting]

Greeting's non-reaction to my vote and getting on with moving the game forward does seem slightly townie, I guess, though it could be scum doing well at appearing town. I do find it a bit strange that he asked cornpuff if we've played together before. I didn't mention having any experience here (41). This is my second game here and the first is still ongoing.

How would you have me react to a naked vote which was thrown in and completely unrelated to the content of the post it it's in?

I asked

CornPuffBuddha

that question, because his post implied he had expectations towards your play. Turns out he meant general expectations towards anyone's play (82).

[Greeting]

My scum reads are Wayward, Greeting, maybe Calum. Kitty's inactivity is suspicious. Though none of my scum reads are very strong yet, I will VOTE: Wayward because it is the strongest nonetheless.

My town so far is CornPuff, Salsa and Tejate.

I agree with the

Calum

scumread. Why do you scumread

Wayward Son

though?

[Greeting]

Sorry I was busy and forgot about this game.

1. I think Greeting and Tejate are town, I like the tone of their first posts.
2. I rarely vote this early nowadays.

You know we have more than just first posts to go with now, right?

[Greeting]

TL;DR, I believe Calum may be trying to play an aggressive mafia game to focus discussion on a topic that ultimately benefits a Calum/not Bloodb0t scumteam by virtue of not being about them.

Now, at the moment we all only have tiny ISOs to go off of, however this sort of behavior to me is something I'd expect more from a red role than a green one. In my opinion, mafia has 3 major strategies for the day game. Obviously there's details, but I feel as though it breaks down to 3 main ways to accomplish whatever goal, be that survival or gaining trust. Do note that I am not implying that these are equally effective, and they are not mutually exclusive either. For me, they exist on a spectrum of sorts. Also note I do not necessarily consider these hard tells, these are just general approaches I think mafia is likely to take, mafia is not a flowchart.

1) Coasting, a strategy very common with beginner mafia and sometimes even experienced players. This usually isn't even done on purpose, but this consists of a lot of fluff and little else. I don't think this is really a scumtell, but not contributing is very likely to get you limmed by more experienced players, since people simply don't have any way to slot you. This is not what is happening here, but I figure I should mention it.
2) Contributing bad info. This is when a scum agrees with a townie (usually townread player) who is contributing a theory that is way off the mark, or pushing their own. Townies are often wrong contrary to popular belief, so this is a very easy thing to fall back to.
3) Stifling discussion. This is when, instead of simply throwing bad ideas into the pot like strategy 2, you essentially try to force the conversation to as far off track or end as soon as possible. The less townies discuss things that are actually relevant, the less likely they are to successfully gamesolve. This is the most aggressive of the 3, you essentially have to be dominating the conversation for this to be pulled off. More experienced players are likely to be wary of this, but in a newbie game people are far more likely to simply "follow the leader". Not speaking about you guys specifically, but largely speaking people brand new to the game do this when presented with domineering mafia play.

At first, I typed this sentence:

This is a good observation coming from a townie mindset. I think

Tejate Raichu

should be off the radar for Day 1 as well.

I pointed out that I usually don't solve games by assuming that the mafia team has a strategy, because there might as well be none. But then took the time to actually analyse what has been given here, and something's off here.

In my opinion, Calum's play thus far lines up more with 2 and 3 than what I would expect a townie to be saying this early. Especially the part where they immediately suggested to vote one of me or Bloodb0t. The biggest thing that gives me pause at the moment is that, if they are leaning 3, the most aggressive playstyle, I would expect them to be following up more, especially with my posts countering Calum. They did say they were new, but I don't want to discount this doubt based on that alone.

Then, I looked at

Calum

's ISO. It's full of single-sentenced posts, questions, half-naked votes. Very little content.

How would you categorise this as 2/3? It's

literally

coasting. He does not engage in discussion, his questions do not redirect the discussion. His influence on the game is minuscule.

[Greeting]

This kind of seems like splitting hairs. As you say, it's not like scum has to have a strategy that they stick to. They could switch things up depending on any number of things. I do think Calum's been exhibiting behavior from all 3 categories. His low post/word count could be considered coasting, but all of his little content fits into 2/3. That doesn't exonerate them at all. Calum has been one of the most scummy players so far. The specific categorization of his strategy doesn't really matter.

I think your overall play exhibits strategy number 2, which is the most dangerous one for town in my opinion. You're also using strategy 3 in the quoted post because the inconsistency you point out doesn't really matter.

I would prefer to Lim you day 1, so VOTE: Greeting, but I am also willing to hammer the more harmless scum in Wayward/Calum because those are more likely to actually happen. I sense that a D1 vote on you probably won't be gaining much traction, which is unfortunate.

Nice try. I was just about to wait for

Tejate

to respond and start questioning him about his townread of you, but this pre-emptive attack seems to me that I'm heading towards the right direction.

This vote is completely unsurprising. It makes sense when one looks back at

Tejate Raichu

's ISO and he actually white knighted you (48) even though, in my opinion, there's really no reason for town to do so. I was just pondering a potential

Tejate

/

BloodB0t

team. Even if

Tejate

is actually town, he's the only notable advocate to not eliminate you.

What's the truth? Your "reads" are inconsistent and chaotic. Townies sometimes are inconsistent and chaotic, but not within one post:

Greeting's non-reaction to my vote and getting on with moving the game forward does seem slightly townie

, I guess, though it could be scum doing well at appearing town. I do find it a bit strange that he asked cornpuff if we've played together before. I didn't mention having any experience here (41). This is my second game here and the first is still ongoing.

As a matter of fact, I replied to you in 96, but you didn't really seem to care. Is that really inciting discussion or just posting reads for the sake of it?

My scum reads are Wayward, Greeting, maybe Calum.

Kitty's inactivity is suspicious. Though none of my scum reads are very strong yet, I will VOTE: Wayward because it is the strongest nonetheless.

You defend yourself by claiming that your votes were intentionally strange (90) and you're "making waves" and want to see what happens (106).

Your voting record so far is also really bad, your main scumreads are literally obvtown players (even if you not count myself). These are all actually book scumreads, from Mini's Scumhunting Kit: :"Trying to discredit obvtown people for bad reasons", "Being "jokingly" scummy, self-admitting they are scummy, claiming scum" (admitting your bad ISO).

And, since LAMIST has been mentioned in this game before, trying to initiate discussion for the sake of it, not for the sake of forming reads literally falls under the definition from this scumhumting guide.

"Look at me, I'm so town!" (+1.0)
It's the so-called LAMIST tell and it's still relevant enough to have its own acronym! Newbscum usually are very concerned with 'looking good' to avoid falling under suspicion, but don't know how to fake-scumhunt. Instead, they will do things like pushing the lurkers to contribute, trying to "resuscitate" them by voting them, asking for reads on themselves, talking a lot about the game itself (this is called IIoA), claiming they are doing anything in their power to get information.

Post in reference - 41: zero relation of vote to post content, claiming to elicit reaction afterwards.

This is a good Day 1 elimination.

VOTE: BloodB0t

[Greeting]

Important:

BloodB0t

is at E-2 now. If you agree with this read, feel free to jump in, but please announce that you're putting him on E-1.

It is customary on MafiaScum to announce intent to hammer before casting the final eliminating vote. This is done so that the player who is about to be hammered has time to claim and that we don't lose a potential power role.

[Greeting]

VOTE: Emollient for putting someone at e-2 so early.

For the record, that someone was none other than...

Tejate Raichu

.

If

BloodB0t

flips red then I am going after

Tejate

tomorrow.

[Greeting]

please tell me if bloodb0t is supposed to be e-2 or not i'm writing this at 11pm and my brain is fried

He's definitely not at E-2, it was my mistake for not noticing the unvote.

I would say that counting 113 as an unvote (the vote was on

BloodB0t

originally) is up to mod discretion.

[Greeting]

Will answer the rest tomorrow.

[Greeting]

Can you explain, why you think they can be the scumteam?

There exists a pattern in this game in which

Tejate Raichu

and

BloodB0t

show signs of supporting rach other each other (90, 48 - from

Tejate

), and even

BloodB0t

defends

Tejate Raichu

(12) even though in my opinion, there isn't enough towny stuff by

BloodB0t

to support this.

Another notable connection between the two is post 91, from

Tejate

, where he claims that

BloodB0t

should "post more". But it's not really that threatening.

No disagreement there, Bloodb0t should be posting given the large amount of contention his slot has at the moment. However, I do take issue with Calum hard pushing me and him as a group.

My major issue here is that

BloodB0t

on surface level is not even remotely towny and yet,

Tejate

writes him off and even slightly supports him.

[Greeting]

I am 100% aware that

Calum

's ISO is bad. This, on surface level, is the literal definition of a coaster and is a commonly used scumtell.

But why has no one said this as a major argument to vote him out?

Tejate Raichu

's 115 about

Calum

looks townie on the surface, but when I read into it, his real reason for voting him out just doesn't make sense and doesn't add up.

(in his words he said it's a combination of 2/3)

2) Contributing bad info. This is when a scum agrees with a townie (usually townread player) who is contributing a theory that is way off the mark, or pushing their own. Townies are often wrong contrary to popular belief, so this is a very easy thing to fall back to.
3) Stifling discussion. This is when, instead of simply throwing bad ideas into the pot like strategy 2, you essentially try to force the conversation to as far off track or end as soon as possible. The less townies discuss things that are actually relevant, the less likely they are to successfully gamesolve. This is the most aggressive of the 3, you essentially have to be dominating the conversation for this to be pulled off. More experienced players are likely to be wary of this, but in a newbie game people are far more likely to simply "follow the leader". Not speaking about you guys specifically, but largely speaking people brand new to the game do this when presented with domineering mafia play.

And when I tried to question him about it,

BloodB0t

came charging at his defense.

Which is why I am really suspicious about the

Calum

wagon rn.

[Greeting]

Not sure why there was ever any talk about me being at e-2.

I looked at the vote tally in 103 and did not count the votes and unvotes cast, which led me to incorrectly believe I was putting you at E-2.

[Greeting]

Calum's ISO is pretty bad. But my worry is that town!Calum is low hanging fruit for scum, and a green flip on Calum wouldn't get us that much information going into D2. I think that a vote on Wayward or Blood, no matter how it flips, would be much more informative to the state of the game.

MTE.

Tl;dr:

Calum

's ISO is bad, but the reasoning to vote him out is worse or even doesn't exist in the case of some. And bad read is a

much more

reliable scumread than coasting.

[Greeting]

Do you think Calum is town? I still think you're splitting hairs over this. Not being able to articulate a perfect reasoning to lim him doesn't make him town. Of course he's 'low hanging fruit', he just comes off as scummy with everything he's doing.

I can perfectly imagine a scenario in which he's town and a scenario in which he's scum. Which would make

Calum

a nullread.

Pedit:

What do you think about a wayward lim?

I have kinda townbinned him already. I'm kinda unwilling to look back on reads if it's not necessary. I haven't found your case on him very convincing though.

Nonetheless, I have noticed that he has been posting with lower frequencies recently.

[Greeting]

I didn't ask for your read on him, I asked what you thought about a lim on him. Let's say he flips town, what do you think we would have gained from that?

I tend not to think in categories of "let's flip x, because if x is town then y is town/scum/whatever". I flip players whom I think are scum, and associations (such as the one I mentioned in 125) are a bonus.

We are in a 9p setup, which allows us to make not more than 2 mistakes while voting out suspected mafia. If I am wrong and you're town, I

strongly

suggest that you go after your scumreads and not flip players over associations.

[Greeting]

I will not be around until like tomorrow evening (32h+), when I return, I'll get back to you,

Tejate

.

But I also agree that

Calum

should contribute more, because, at the end of the day, his ISO is still... bad.

[Greeting]

And another thing: Greeting, you have said a couple times now that Calum is LHF. Think about this from my perspective for a second: my "defenses" of Bloodb0t mostly involved pointing out that, at the time he was actually LHF. I used this to point out a particular post sussing Bloodb0t that I didn't like because it seemed like it was simply trying to reach that LHF rather than actually get a mafia limmed.

Does the same thing not apply to why you think my suspicion of Calum over Blood isn't warranted? If I'm reading correctly, you believe my reasoning for a Calum wagon is bad, and therefor I am scum with Bloodb0t trying to get the LHF. Does that actually make sense, though? Why do you feel so confident that I am trying to push Calum because he's LHF? Why do you seem to think this is any different than my "defense" of Blood?

I have made my case with regard to you and

BloodB0t

, it's in my ISO and I continue to support it. I can obviously see a universe where

BloodB0t

is town LHF. I am not 100% sure on that scumread. It's just the best I have for today, and given the way Day 1 is going now, it will probably be my best case this Day.

Calum

is, in my humble opinion, far lower hanging fruit though.

Part of why I am so reluctant to scumread him for the obvious is my extensive experience of playing Newbie games with players who had similar levels of activity (and sometimes even replaced out) who were all scumread en masse for it.

BloodB0t

would be a different kind of LHF if he's town - the explanation would be erratic behavior and gameplay issues (I have played with players who genuinely attempt to start discussions like this).

Nonetheless, my approach is not without its flaws. What if we're at ELo ("eliminate or lose") and

Calum

is still alive? This kind of slot, if town, is just perfect for the mafia to have in the game because he's totally mislimmable.

[Greeting]

How does a lack of contribution and a bad iso give you a null read on Calum? Normally when people have null reads on someone, it's because they are conflicted between different points that seem to support both a town and a scum. So what about Calum supports him being townie and goes against him being scum? It seems like you're just avoiding giving a real read on him.

See 181.

This is a Newbie game. Some Newbie slots are just like that, they don't fully know how to play, even if they know how to play, they might not know how people play on MafiaScum (long Day Phases, a lot of analysing) they get stressed/discouraged and sometimes even replace out.

[Greeting]

Sorry dear players, I can't continue. I wish you a pleasant game.

Sorry to see you go. In the future, please remember that it's against the rules to discuss replacements until they happen.

[Greeting]

Hi everyone.

I'm going to have a read through the thread and see what I can make out of it. I'll post my thoughts after I've had chance to do this, hopefully later tonight.

Welcome! What do you think of my case on

BloodB0t

?

[Greeting]

Moonshot

gets a temporary townread for 187.

[Greeting]

What do you think scum!Bloodbot gains with his vote on you? Its clear that he is aware that it is not going to lead to anything.

I feel like he's coming to

Tejate Raichu

's defense, even though I haven't really attacked him, merely questioned him. I interpret the vote on me as a nervous scum overreaction, and the purpose would be to intimidate me into backing down from it.

Townies can behave this way by your own admission, and yes within one post is not impossible.

Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.

Why do you think Wayward Son and Calum are obvtown?

Perhaps the phrasing on my part was a bit ambiguous, but I meant his voting record and not necessarily people who he named as scumreads.

This was his voting record until, and including, post 90:

Emollient(

Moonshot

) - 12

CornPuffBuddha

- 18

Greeting

- 41

Wayward Son

- 90

That's me, and three players I was townreading or townleaning at the moment. Even if we consider 12 a random RVS vote, that's a bad voting record.

Also from this quote do you only think Tejate is scum if bloodbot is scum?

No, but if

BloodB0t

flips red then there is a high chance of

Tejate

being scum too and that's where I would look next.

[Greeting]

That might not be a bad idea considering we have about a day and a half left to come to a decision.

What idea?

When a game mod announces replacement of the inactive slot, he should pause the timer on the exact time the replacement is announced. This will give us more time.

[Greeting]

Hello,

T3

. I'm glad you're catching up and giving us something more than your predecessor did.

Agreed, very strange wording. I'm not sure it would be a good idea to press on this topic, though.

KittyTacky

uses strange wording in general (personal meta experience, played with him before and have seen him play).

It's not the wording that's worrying me though, it's the general lack of content.

This is very scummy shading of KT. A lack of content isn’t something that’s concerning, KT has made 2 posts and hasn’t visited the thread since.

I strongly disagree. Activity levels

can

be alignment indicative, and I had the full right to judge

KT

the way I did. He did start getting more active later though.

Early townleans:

Wayward Son

- Easily the towniest ISO so far in this game, committed to making meta reads (20), progressing the game (65). The second one is more important, as dead games always favour scum who can hide in the shadows and do nothing. It's uncommon for mafia-aligned players, especially newbies to have the drive to make fake progress in a game.

I don't necessarily agree with the

Tejate Raichu

townread (63) though. Why?

CornPuffBuddha

- Weaker townread than the latter, nonetheless shows traces of actual analysis of the gameplay (29).

A question for you though, why do you think

BloodB0t

is "unusually passive"? Have you played with them before? (44)

These reads are fairly surface-level, which isn’t scummy in of itself, but I also think that town Greeting is certainly capable of deeper reads.

Did you consider the fact that this was page 4, post 79? Because if you didn't, then it's your analysis that isn't deep enough.

[Greeting]

VOTE: Emollient for putting someone at e-2 so early.

We're still in RVS. Why so serious?

It's not really serious.

It may not seem serious, but maybe it does deserve taking a closer look. In my experience, it's not uncommon for a slot to get 2 votes in RVS in a 9p setup, but 3? Starts getting into dangerous territory.

Now keeping tabs on the early

Tejate Raichu

wagon.

1/2 scum found

Is this referring to me,

BloodB0t

,

Tejate Raichu

or someone on the

Tejate Raichu

wagon?

[Greeting]

I have absoluto zero experience on Mafia games (Meatworld / Online), or even social deduction games. "Oh you maaake me feel, shiny and new, like a virgin."

CornPuffBuddha you wrote a very clean recap, trying to make things clear. I wasn't aware my thoughts could be perceived as so "overly" aggressive, but I can see it now. Your recap looks like helping town to me, but I still consider it NAI.

Thanks for the votecount

Either Emollient is scum that subconsciously radiates town vibes, or he received a green role PM.

Emollient was a townlean (for me, many players in the thread also townread him), and his successor,

Moonshot

did a pretty good analysis of the gamestate recently.

I don't like this evaluation by you actually. It essentially boils down to either Emollient is mafia or town, which is kinda like saying nothing.

[Greeting]

I also fail to see the point of trying to explain your predecessor's behavior,

T3

. It should be obvious to literally everyone that it is in your best interest to look towny regardless of your actual alignment and that they should judge you and Calum in combination.

[Greeting]

I was referring to you as scum, yes.

Why was 23 so scummy in your eyes?

I also fail to see the point of trying to explain your predecessor's behavior,

T3

. It should be obvious to literally everyone that it is in your best interest to look towny regardless of your actual alignment and that they should judge you and Calum in combination.

Yes, it is in my best interests to look towny regardless of my alignment. That is why I am defending Callum.

Just saying that Calum stayed a nullread in my eyes when he left the game. He could have been very well a confused and stressed town newbie or he could have been a confused and stressed mafia newbie. Still, I can see that you're continuously catching up with the thread so you'll get there soon.

[Greeting]

I have absoluto zero experience on Mafia games (Meatworld / Online), or even social deduction games. "Oh you maaake me feel, shiny and new, like a virgin."

CornPuffBuddha you wrote a very clean recap, trying to make things clear. I wasn't aware my thoughts could be perceived as so "overly" aggressive, but I can see it now. Your recap looks like helping town to me, but I still consider it NAI.

Thanks for the votecount

Either Emollient is scum that subconsciously radiates town vibes, or he received a green role PM.

Emollient was a townlean (for me, many players in the thread also townread him), and his successor,

Moonshot

did a pretty good analysis of the gamestate recently.

I don't like this evaluation by you actually. It essentially boils down to either Emollient is mafia or town, which is kinda like saying nothing.

Yeah, it does pretty much boil down to “either Emollient is mafia or town.”
I suppose that in my head when I was making the post my intent was to convey my conviction that Emollient is town.

But you can’t read my mind, so that point is moot.

I can't read your mind, but I can, and should, try to read your intentions. And this raised an eyebrow.

I guess I will wait for you to finish catching up before grilling you any further. So I'll react/respond to anything of interest that I have missed or will happen later in the morning.

[Greeting]

@ T3 if you're reading (as you go), Why are you jumping around, instead of going chronologically?

It's good that he's catching up with the game overall, but the analysis so far has been kinda shallow. Sort of, like, jumping on posts and summarising how each post makes him feel even though the game had progressed and changed. This is good for simulating discussion, but time is running out so I hope he finishes fast so we can decide on the Day 1 elimination.

Ehh. I agree with some of the points in this post, but the part about Tejate seems like Greetingnis pushing a narrative in order to secure Calum’s vote.

Your predecessor wasn't someone I would rely on for votes, and rightfully so, as he just suddenly stopped playing and replaced out. I just decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. Not sure if that was the right decision now.

[Greeting]

@

Salsabil Faria

I gather you think the scum team is

BloodB0t

/

KittyTacky

. Do you think scum!

BloodB0t

is bussing in 259?

[Greeting]

Greeting

More catchup coming soon

Because of one post (23), which you never explained, even though I specifically asked you to (242).

[Greeting]

Greeting

More catchup coming soon

Because of one post (23), which you never explained, even though I specifically asked you to (242).

When you put it like that…..

I scumread that post because it looked like you were trying to cast shade on things that are NAI, and there was stuff of very little substance that only serves to cast attention on to other players.

In short: this post pinged me very badly

It is not common for so many votes to land on one slot in early RVS. And, the mafia RVS votes are not as random as they could be.

This point did turn out to be moot, but I think I had the right to be concerned.

[Greeting]

Greeting, why did you immediately townread Moonshot? I didn’t see anything AI in his posting.

Because 187 is a very good analysis of the gamestate.

[Greeting]

@

Salsabil Faria

I gather you think the scum team is

BloodB0t

/

KittyTacky

. Do you think scum!

BloodB0t

is bussing in 259?

Actually, I'm not reading anyone based on associative atm. Simply going by how many players I'll find scummy then do the associative finding among them.

But to answer your question, I don't think scum!

BloodB0t

needed to bus his partner at that time and I scumread

Kitty

independently, thus voting him.

But, looking logically, if not both of your scumreads are scum, then something's wrong with one scumread?

[Greeting]

oh hey I played mafia with atomicpianowitch once on a children’s math forum in 2018

Greeting, why did you immediately townread Moonshot? I didn’t see anything AI in his posting.

Because 187 is a very good analysis of the gamestate.

But why is good analysis of the game state towny? Do you think scum are incapable of producing analysis that good?

They might be. Which is why, in my words, it's a temporary townread. But the effort they put in the game should warrant giving them a pass for now.

[Greeting]

VOTE: Greeting

Hi.

[Greeting]

I am honestly kinda tired of this day. The endless replacements are unfortunate.

I feel like

T3

's push on me is based on a single post that is completely NAI, and his PoE is just literally all the other SEs (excluding

Enchant

). What I noticed about his posts about me is that even when in his mind I did something "towny", he always finds a way to scumread me for it. I have tried to engage with him, but his mind is clearly fixated on me.

Ehh. I agree with some of the points in this post, but the part about Tejate seems like Greetingnis pushing a narrative in order to secure Calum’s vote.

Greeting’s defense of Calum is towny - Calum pretty widely suspected and there’s no reason for Greeting to try to stop the momentum of Calum’s wagon.

I think the reason for

T3

's push is that he most likely sees me as a biggest threat to the mafia team for my commitment to the game.

Now, I don't necessarily townread

KittyTacky

either. But he has shown traces of game analysis, and he scumread

T3

's predecessor. Perhaps I should have listened and considered scum!Calum more. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to look for deepwolves which sometimes unfortunately results in me failing to see what's on the surface.

VOTE: T3

This is E-1. Please state intent to hammer before/if you cast the final vote so

T3

has time to claim if he chooses to do so.

[Greeting]

1. Defending predecessor Calum:

Looks like to me that scum!

T3

approaches by pointing out

Calum

's fault to look like a town.

This struck me too, and I spoke of it in 237. Normally when I replace in, I pay absolutely zero attention to my slot's predecessor, because why the f would I be doing it? I cannot change anything, only write a new page.

I am happy to see

T3

out today.

[Greeting]

My push on you isn’t based on a single post, it’s based on several.

Really? Your ISO says something different.

1/2 scum found

23 was the first post by me you quoted and the first where you named me as scum.

Besides, you admitted following the premise yourself here:

You’re right, to be honest. When judging your post there I started with the premise that you were scum and neglected to mention what I liked about the post.

I was referring to you as scum, yes.

This is very scummy shading of KT. A lack of content isn’t something that’s concerning, KT has made 2 posts and hasn’t visited the thread since.

Here you're shading me for questioning

KittyTacky

, whom you're now going after yourself.

These reads are fairly surface-level, which isn’t scummy in of itself, but I also think that town Greeting is certainly capable of deeper reads.

Again, reads from page 4 can't be very deep, which indicates a shallow and lazy analysis.

In my opinion, this looks like you're just looking for any pretext you can to get rid of me. This is not a normal progression of scummy ISO -> scumread, but the scumread was formed before the case came about.

Scum me doesn’t see you as a threat to the scum team based on high activity,

that’s just not how it works.

The are so many other factors (how correct your reads are, whether you’re a possible lim, etc.)

Looks like my reads are pretty good then. If you flip red then your partner is

BloodB0t

whom you consistently defend.

You townread KT for his game analysis, little as it be, but have nothing to say on my analysis other than “all of it is shallow???”

Do you even read my posts?

Now, I don't necessarily townread

KittyTacky

either.

But he has shown traces of game analysis, and he scumread

T3

's predecessor. Perhaps I should have listened and considered scum!Calum more. Unfortunately, I have a tendency to look for deepwolves which sometimes unfortunately results in me failing to see what's on the surface.

[Greeting]

I like 345. I was ready to lim Calum before he got replaced. I will hammer T3 depending on claims. D2 I will convince Greeting that I'm town.

You're... correct. You did go after Calum quite extensively. Which means that you and

T3

are most likely not scum together.

I will be going on V/LA for the next few days (until the 27th the latest).

I will still post, but with less content and a lesser frequency.

[Greeting]

There go my Day 1 reads…

Will need to reevaluate the whole thread because they apparently really sucked.

[Greeting]

Greetings @Greeting.

Can you please explain why exactly did you change your mind on D1, from being against Callum's slot Lim to supporting it?

Greetings,

NJAC

. Welcome back!

I have already spoken about this, but here’s a tl;dr version:

I have nullread Calum and firmly wanted to believe that the slot was just lost, misguided town. Reason for this being the fact that I have player many Newbie games here and most of them had players like that. I am more lenient towards actual newbies than SEs, because these games are supposed to be providing a good learning experience for those who may not have it.

Then,

T3

subbed in, and started catching up. His catchup was extremely long, the post content felt chaotic and inconsistent, the catchup, also, in my opinion, lacked definition conclusions about the gamestate. I decided that his push on me must be motivated by something else rather than „scumreading” me as the basis of his argument was one post I made, 23.

T3

’s miselimination was unfortunate, but likely inevitable.

[Greeting]

The reanalysis of the thread will have to wait for tomorrow evening though, apologies.

[Greeting]

Also, my townread on Greeting eroded pretty heavily upon a closer look.

Why?

[Greeting]

Greeting is manipulative from first post in game, i don't really see how Greeting can be town.

Please elaborate

I just feel Greeting!Town doesh't post "Hello newbies if you are green we are in same team".

So you think that 8 is definitive LAMIST that points to scum me? We really are having another rendition of "I found scum in just one post". It's a shame that you really didn't. The truth is that I am just being nice, because this is a Newbie game, and I care about player retention on MafiaScum.

And what about your contributions to the game? I mean, this case is literally the only thing you've been doing so far. What about your reads of other players?

KittyTacky

?

Salsabil Faria

?

Wayward Son

?

[Greeting]

@ Greeting Happy Cake Day!

Good night.

Thank you! Both the 28th and the 29th are cake day for me. First one is anniversary of joining the site (first anniversary!), second one is my actual birthday.

[Greeting]

Thanks for the welcome.

And, fair enough, I think I understand your reasons. Just a couple of questions more about this:

1) Did you consider that T3 was a good replacement and beneficial to the game, given that he was being active and seemed to be putting some work to solve the game? Did you consider that he was also still a newbie?

2) Why did you say you were tired of D1 and kind of wanted to end it soon, when there were replacements taking place, and considering that the deadline was frozen it could be beneficial to have more input from the replaced in players, before taking a final decision?

Day 1 felt like it lasted two weeks because of the constant replacements, which is four days longer than it should. At that very moment I felt like we had enough information to end the day with a

T3

elimination. It is a real shame that he got tunnelled on me over one post (23) and it probably clouded his judgement of this game very strongly.

[Greeting]

Current thoughts: Most likely one of my townreads is terribly wrong.

Both

Salsabil Faria

and

KittyTacky

deserve more scrutiny. Statistically speaking, usually, one of the mafia slots is an SE player and one is a Newbie. I guess I would definitely redirect my effort to analysing these two very closely today.

Salsabil

will go first as they have jumped off the

T3

wagon when it gained traction. I've found it suspicious at the time and I'm finding it suspicious now, because there was enough justification for a Calum/

T3

elimination and yet they left at the very last minute. Almost as if they wanted to try to avoid looking bad for miseliminating someone they knew was town.

[Greeting]

I apologise for my inactivity and for being less involved in this game than I should. This also sets a bad example to the newbies. I promise that I will do the analysis enough time before EOD so it can be discussed through and decisions can be made regarding them.

[Greeting]

Statistically speaking, usually, one of the mafia slots is an SE player and one is a Newbie.

Failure logic.

There's 3 SE and 6 Newbies.
Chances that mafia have more newbies is simple higher, SE+Newbies on second place, and SE+SE is rarest. It doesh't mean anything, because roles are still random.


So anyway, Greeting still alive? Why

Then why was the scumteam SE+Newbie in all the six newbies I have played before this one?

I guess you're just too lazy to build an actual case on me so you're clinging to nonsense like this. You're lucky you replaced into a slot I townread, because your posts in this game are completely useless.

[Greeting]

Salsabil Faria

What struck me with this ISO is that her RVS vote was

KittyTacky

(10), a player whom she would later strongly suspect and name as a potential mafia. She also had an early interaction with

KT

in 42.

In 85, she explored the idea of scum me and scum!

Wayward Son

.

Don't like these. Reasons:

1.

Re:65>> Buddy attempt to town!

Greeting

or scum-theatre attempt with scum!

Greeting

. The underlined part is read to me like what a (newb) scum would say, "

Look, I'm town!

". [There is a term here for it, can't remember]

2.

Re:68>> Useless question, as if scum!

Calum

will admit if he is scum... seems '

asking for the sake of asking

' kind of situation.

3.

Re:72>> Pocketing attempt to town!

Emollient

as soon as he post 70 which is also a empty post per se...

I thought the idea of scum theatre happening so early in Day 1 was ridiculous, which is why I asked her about it in 95. The response was ambiguous.

There is no right answer for it, totally depends on the team but in one of my scum games, my team started scum theatre early and won because of it. Maybe scum theatre won't be the right word for what I pointed out, '

forced/weird convo between scum partners

' kinda situation was in my head.

Which makes me wonder, was their focus on

KittyTacky

earlier on... scum theatre? Would it be possible for there to be two SE mafia in this game? I don't know. I guess I'll look into

KittyTacky

's ISO later and find out.

There is at least one scum in them (hopefully 2) {

Calum

,

Greeting

,

BloodB0t

,

Wayward

,

Tejate

} >> Theory 02 (based on interactions with each other +

if x flip green so y will be scum

theory)

Townreads:

CornPuffBuddha

,

Emollient

FYI, I skimmed after my last post, so a detailed overview will be posted later, don't find time to isoing anyone yet.

Why was

Kitty

left out from this post altogether? And then, in 258,

Salsabil Faria

does a moderately extended analysis of

KT

where she names him explicitly as scum. The chaos struck me here, but I am not sure at all if it is scum indicative.

The

Wayward Son

read changed from scum (85) to null in 260. Even though there is no noticeable read progression between these two posts.

She also scumread

BloodB0t

in 270, but honestly so did I. I can't, in good conscience, be scumreading her for this.

And now I'm getting to the core of my suspicion, and that is the progression from heavy scumread on

T3

to jumping off the wagon just before it was hammered.

Salsabil

speaks of the Calum/

T3

scumread in 316. The points she made are all pretty valid, sensible and consistent with what I was thinking at the moment.

I made a long wall-post on

T3

but got deleted before I can hit submit Don't have the energy to write it down again, so just pointing out the main things from his ISO now:

1. Defending predecessor Calum:

Looks like to me that scum!

T3

approaches by pointing out

Calum

's fault to look like a town.

2. Inconsistent + non-committal reads:

His reads in this game are very confusing and I don't think town!

T3

will be this much confused (based on my meta about his gameplay). Before 248,

T3

was either defending/town reading

wayward

&

Emollient/Moonshot

in one post or shading/scum reading them on the next post which feels inconsistent to me + scum!him didn't want to commit to making a way out for later kind of situation is going on. He did the same thing with his

BloodB0t

read also (243, 265) but don't say where he stand about

BloodB0t

yet.

@T3

, kindly explain your reasoning behind the reads in 248 because I fail to see the progression behind it.

3. Controversial scum reads:

The way he approached scum reading

Greeting

seems forced with ill intentions. From 214, 232 to 238, 289 seems like

T3

is made up his mind about

Greeting

first, then approaches with the narrative. Interesting fact,

T3

is now scum reading

Kitty

who is also scum read by

Greeting

{and town reading

Emollient/Moonshot

(who are also town read by

Greeting

) ~~ just pointing out} which indicates

Greeting/Kitty

scum team. But another interesting fact,

T3

mentioned my name "

[KT, Salsa, Greeting]

" in 296 for D1 elimination while agreeing with my

Kitty

scum case which indicates scum!me made a case on my scum partner (258) + bussing him in 261 when

Kitty

wasn't in danger which doesn't make sense at all.

My read:

Scum

UNVOTE: Kitty

VOTE: T3

And then,

T3

claimed VT.

Enchant

entered the game and started going after me.

Salsabil

jumps off

T3

to buddy up to

Enchant

almost instantly.

Imo most likely T3 is town.

Who do you think is scum then? Kindly add reasoning if it's possible for you.
I'm unvoting for now...

UNVOTE: T3

Spoiler: FYI

How do you go from a good case on a scummy-looking, albeit towny player to just jumping off their wagon at the very last minute? I hate this. The suspicion of

T3

was justified, deserved and understandable from a town point of view. Only a scum would know what he would flip.

[Greeting]

I think keeping alive a player like kitty too long in the game is bad. There's a lot of promises to improve activity but he again comes and say that he forgot about the game. So:

VOTE: Kitty

Low activity is NAI for me, I am a busy man.

In general I feel like policy limming is kinda scummy no matter on who.

Agreed + we are not in the verge of getting a

no matter what we need an elimination

phase rn, so policy elimination doesn't make sense.

@NJAC

, you caught up from the D1 I suppose, who do you think is likely to be scums? And does your

Kitty

scumread only based on low activity?

Interesting things from

Greeting

's ISO, he was very sure about his

Tejate/NJAC

&

BloodB0t

scumread before

T3

scumread but never voted

Tejate/NJAC

for once but voted

BloodB0t

[re: 123] which indicates

Greeting

-

Tejate/NJAC

scumteam. Then again 78, 79 + this line form 123: "

your main scumreads are literally obvtown players

" are indicate

Greeting

-

Wayward

scumteam.
My intuition says there is at least one scum in this group: {

Greeting, Wayward, Tejate/NJAC

}

My theory was based on

BloodB0t

being maf. Turns out, he wasn't. In the meantime, Tejate replaced out and I haven't wrapped my head around

NJAC

yet. But honestly, what scum reason would scum!Tejate Raichu have to defend

BloodB0t

on Day 1?

[Greeting]

Spoiler: Greeting vs BloodB0t vs Tejate/NJAC

My scum reads are Wayward, Greeting, maybe Calum. Kitty's inactivity is suspicious. Though none of my scum reads are very strong yet, I will VOTE: Wayward because it is the strongest nonetheless.

My town so far is CornPuff, Salsa and Tejate.

I agree with the

Calum

scumread. Why do you scumread

Wayward Son

though?

TL;DR, I believe Calum may be trying to play an aggressive mafia game to focus discussion on a topic that ultimately benefits a Calum/not Bloodb0t scumteam by virtue of not being about them.

Now, at the moment we all only have tiny ISOs to go off of, however this sort of behavior to me is something I'd expect more from a red role than a green one. In my opinion, mafia has 3 major strategies for the day game. Obviously there's details, but I feel as though it breaks down to 3 main ways to accomplish whatever goal, be that survival or gaining trust. Do note that I am not implying that these are equally effective, and they are not mutually exclusive either. For me, they exist on a spectrum of sorts. Also note I do not necessarily consider these hard tells, these are just general approaches I think mafia is likely to take, mafia is not a flowchart.

1) Coasting, a strategy very common with beginner mafia and sometimes even experienced players. This usually isn't even done on purpose, but this consists of a lot of fluff and little else. I don't think this is really a scumtell, but not contributing is very likely to get you limmed by more experienced players, since people simply don't have any way to slot you. This is not what is happening here, but I figure I should mention it.
2) Contributing bad info. This is when a scum agrees with a townie (usually townread player) who is contributing a theory that is way off the mark, or pushing their own. Townies are often wrong contrary to popular belief, so this is a very easy thing to fall back to.
3) Stifling discussion. This is when, instead of simply throwing bad ideas into the pot like strategy 2, you essentially try to force the conversation to as far off track or end as soon as possible. The less townies discuss things that are actually relevant, the less likely they are to successfully gamesolve. This is the most aggressive of the 3, you essentially have to be dominating the conversation for this to be pulled off. More experienced players are likely to be wary of this, but in a newbie game people are far more likely to simply "follow the leader". Not speaking about you guys specifically, but largely speaking people brand new to the game do this when presented with domineering mafia play.

At first, I typed this sentence:

This is a good observation coming from a townie mindset. I think

Tejate Raichu

should be off the radar for Day 1 as well.

I pointed out that I usually don't solve games by assuming that the mafia team has a strategy, because there might as well be none. But then took the time to actually analyse what has been given here, and something's off here.

In my opinion, Calum's play thus far lines up more with 2 and 3 than what I would expect a townie to be saying this early. Especially the part where they immediately suggested to vote one of me or Bloodb0t. The biggest thing that gives me pause at the moment is that, if they are leaning 3, the most aggressive playstyle, I would expect them to be following up more, especially with my posts countering Calum. They did say they were new, but I don't want to discount this doubt based on that alone.

Then, I looked at

Calum

's ISO. It's full of single-sentenced posts, questions, half-naked votes. Very little content.

How would you categorise this as 2/3? It's

literally

coasting. He does not engage in discussion, his questions do not redirect the discussion. His influence on the game is minuscule.

This kind of seems like splitting hairs. As you say, it's not like scum has to have a strategy that they stick to. They could switch things up depending on any number of things. I do think Calum's been exhibiting behavior from all 3 categories. His low post/word count could be considered coasting, but all of his little content fits into 2/3. That doesn't exonerate them at all. Calum has been one of the most scummy players so far. The specific categorization of his strategy doesn't really matter.

I think your overall play exhibits strategy number 2, which is the most dangerous one for town in my opinion. You're also using strategy 3 in the quoted post because the inconsistency you point out doesn't really matter.

I would prefer to Lim you day 1, so VOTE: Greeting, but I am also willing to hammer the more harmless scum in Wayward/Calum because those are more likely to actually happen. I sense that a D1 vote on you probably won't be gaining much traction, which is unfortunate.

Nice try. I was just about to wait for

Tejate

to respond and start questioning him about his townread of you, but this pre-emptive attack seems to me that I'm heading towards the right direction.

This vote is completely unsurprising. It makes sense when one looks back at

Tejate Raichu

's ISO and he actually white knighted you (48) even though, in my opinion, there's really no reason for town to do so. I was just pondering a potential

Tejate

/

BloodB0t

team. Even if

Tejate

is actually town, he's the only notable advocate to not eliminate you.

What's the truth? Your "reads" are inconsistent and chaotic. Townies sometimes are inconsistent and chaotic, but not within one post:

Greeting's non-reaction to my vote and getting on with moving the game forward does seem slightly townie

, I guess, though it could be scum doing well at appearing town. I do find it a bit strange that he asked cornpuff if we've played together before. I didn't mention having any experience here (41). This is my second game here and the first is still ongoing.

As a matter of fact, I replied to you in 96, but you didn't really seem to care. Is that really inciting discussion or just posting reads for the sake of it?

My scum reads are Wayward, Greeting, maybe Calum.

Kitty's inactivity is suspicious. Though none of my scum reads are very strong yet, I will VOTE: Wayward because it is the strongest nonetheless.

You defend yourself by claiming that your votes were intentionally strange (90) and you're "making waves" and want to see what happens (106).

Your voting record so far is also really bad, your main scumreads are literally obvtown players (even if you not count myself). These are all actually book scumreads, from Mini's Scumhunting Kit: :"Trying to discredit obvtown people for bad reasons", "Being "jokingly" scummy, self-admitting they are scummy, claiming scum" (admitting your bad ISO).

And, since LAMIST has been mentioned in this game before, trying to initiate discussion for the sake of it, not for the sake of forming reads literally falls under the definition from this scumhumting guide.

"Look at me, I'm so town!" (+1.0)
It's the so-called LAMIST tell and it's still relevant enough to have its own acronym! Newbscum usually are very concerned with 'looking good' to avoid falling under suspicion, but don't know how to fake-scumhunt. Instead, they will do things like pushing the lurkers to contribute, trying to "resuscitate" them by voting them, asking for reads on themselves, talking a lot about the game itself (this is called IIoA), claiming they are doing anything in their power to get information.

Post in reference - 41: zero relation of vote to post content, claiming to elicit reaction afterwards.

This is a good Day 1 elimination.

VOTE: BloodB0t

VOTE: Emollient for putting someone at e-2 so early.

For the record, that someone was none other than...

Tejate Raichu

.

If

BloodB0t

flips red then I am going after

Tejate

tomorrow.

Can you explain, why you think they can be the scumteam?

There exists a pattern in this game in which

Tejate Raichu

and

BloodB0t

show signs of supporting rach other each other (90, 48 - from

Tejate

), and even

BloodB0t

defends

Tejate Raichu

(12) even though in my opinion, there isn't enough towny stuff by

BloodB0t

to support this.

Another notable connection between the two is post 91, from

Tejate

, where he claims that

BloodB0t

should "post more". But it's not really that threatening.

No disagreement there, Bloodb0t should be posting given the large amount of contention his slot has at the moment. However, I do take issue with Calum hard pushing me and him as a group.

My major issue here is that

BloodB0t

on surface level is not even remotely towny and yet,

Tejate

writes him off and even slightly supports him.

I am 100% aware that

Calum

's ISO is bad. This, on surface level, is the literal definition of a coaster and is a commonly used scumtell.

But why has no one said this as a major argument to vote him out?

Tejate Raichu

's 115 about

Calum

looks townie on the surface, but when I read into it, his real reason for voting him out just doesn't make sense and doesn't add up.

(in his words he said it's a combination of 2/3)

2) Contributing bad info. This is when a scum agrees with a townie (usually townread player) who is contributing a theory that is way off the mark, or pushing their own. Townies are often wrong contrary to popular belief, so this is a very easy thing to fall back to.
3) Stifling discussion. This is when, instead of simply throwing bad ideas into the pot like strategy 2, you essentially try to force the conversation to as far off track or end as soon as possible. The less townies discuss things that are actually relevant, the less likely they are to successfully gamesolve. This is the most aggressive of the 3, you essentially have to be dominating the conversation for this to be pulled off. More experienced players are likely to be wary of this, but in a newbie game people are far more likely to simply "follow the leader". Not speaking about you guys specifically, but largely speaking people brand new to the game do this when presented with domineering mafia play.

And when I tried to question him about it,

BloodB0t

came charging at his defense.

Which is why I am really suspicious about the

Calum

wagon rn.

And another thing: Greeting, you have said a couple times now that Calum is LHF. Think about this from my perspective for a second: my "defenses" of Bloodb0t mostly involved pointing out that, at the time he was actually LHF. I used this to point out a particular post sussing Bloodb0t that I didn't like because it seemed like it was simply trying to reach that LHF rather than actually get a mafia limmed.

Does the same thing not apply to why you think my suspicion of Calum over Blood isn't warranted? If I'm reading correctly, you believe my reasoning for a Calum wagon is bad, and therefor I am scum with Bloodb0t trying to get the LHF. Does that actually make sense, though? Why do you feel so confident that I am trying to push Calum because he's LHF? Why do you seem to think this is any different than my "defense" of Blood?

I have made my case with regard to you and

BloodB0t

, it's in my ISO and I continue to support it. I can obviously see a universe where

BloodB0t

is town LHF. I am not 100% sure on that scumread. It's just the best I have for today, and given the way Day 1 is going now, it will probably be my best case this Day.

Calum

is, in my humble opinion, far lower hanging fruit though.

Part of why I am so reluctant to scumread him for the obvious is my extensive experience of playing Newbie games with players who had similar levels of activity (and sometimes even replaced out) who were all scumread en masse for it.

BloodB0t

would be a different kind of LHF if he's town - the explanation would be erratic behavior and gameplay issues (I have played with players who genuinely attempt to start discussions like this).

Nonetheless, my approach is not without its flaws. What if we're at ELo ("eliminate or lose") and

Calum

is still alive? This kind of slot, if town, is just perfect for the mafia to have in the game because he's totally mislimmable.

Which struck out to me the most is

Greeting

's main suspicion started with

Tejate/NJAC

, but pushed

BloodB0t

for the sake of

defending scum-partner

aka associative read. The way these conversations happened, (what I think) town!him should eliminate

Tejate/NJAC

first (FYI, he never voted

Tejate

for once, despite having strong suspicion.... classic scum-partner move), then the flip would clear

BloodB0t

to him but happened the opposite.
So the manipulation scum!

Greeting

did here was.... went after a townie, made a scum-case of the townie, included his scum-partner in that case, made

if X flips red then Y will also be the red

associative read among them, night killed the townie (after failing to eliminate him in the day phase), cleared Tejate/NJAC in his eyes by the flip.
This whole

BloodB0t

-

Tejate/NJAC

case was based on associative only which contradicts with

Greeting

's stance on 170.

[

Why do you think Wayward Son and Calum are obvtown?

Perhaps the phrasing on my part was a bit ambiguous, but I meant his voting record and not necessarily people who he named as scumreads.

Moonshot

caught a good thing here....

Greeting

stated

wayward

and

Calum/T3

as

obvtown players

on his 123 (who were/are not obvtown to me) which I think is a Freudian scum-slip.

I actually explained what I meant in greater detail in the part which you

very conveniently left out from the quote.

Perhaps the phrasing on my part was a bit ambiguous, but I meant his voting record and not necessarily people who he named as scumreads.

This was his voting record until, and including, post 90:

Emollient(

Moonshot

) - 12

CornPuffBuddha

- 18

Greeting

- 41

Wayward Son

- 90

That's me, and three players I was townreading or townleaning at the moment. Even if we consider 12 a random RVS vote, that's a bad voting record.

[Greeting]

Overall:

Salsabil

played like a good townie up until the very moment when

Enchant

replaced in,

T3

claims and in spite of a perfectly good case,

Salsabil

follows

Enchant

and jumps off the wagon in 359. Since then, she has been misplaying horribly and misrepresenting my stances on purpose. Probably trying to exploit the fact that

Enchant

is scumreading me to ensure I get miselimmed today, and if not today then on Day 3.

I hope this post is remembered in case I am killed N2 and will not be around to remind everyone for D3.

We're not running out of time so

KT

's ISO analysis will come in the evening.

[Greeting]

KittyTacky

Now, I have played with

KittyTacky

before and he also played in a game I hosted. He can be weird at times, and the way he phrases his posts can sometimes be bizarre.

What I dislike

about his ISO is the fact that he keeps using the same excuse for inactivity over, and over again.

Sorry I was busy and forgot about this game.

I'm busy IRL.

I forgor about this game, will catch up and respond tomorrow morning.

I actually have free time now, I was just busy before and now I simply forgot.

It is a shame when people sign up for a game and later don't commit themselves into solving it so do please keep that in mind when you commit to a game in the future.

KittyTacky

suspected Calum early, in 137. I'm not sure if it's a good look for him. I mean, Calum was kinda limbait after all. I went after this slot when it got replaced by tunnelled

T3

who hijacked the thread with his excessively long catch-up.

Here's what I like about his ISO:

He did, nonetheless, explain his reads when questioned, in 194 or 324. The explanations have a towny ring to them.

I think that the strongest townread when it comes to

KT

is the read progression, which seems natural and keeping up with the pace of the game. It is understandable for him to be scumreading

NJAC

in 416, and it's apparently quite common a scumread on Day 2 now, with which I don't really agree but it is how it is. I think it's also understandable that his townread of me was shaken after the Day 1 miselimination of

T3

(435). All I can say is that I feel like my vote back then was fully justified.

Overall:

Honestly though? In my opinion, this could fit the "too scummy to be scum" description. I know you don't like it,

KT

, you said so yourself in 194, but this is actually an accurate description of your play.

[Greeting]

Anyway, if

KittyTacky

is actually just bad scum and I am finding excuses to townread him, I will be really pissed off after this game.

[Greeting]

Of these two,

Salsabil Faria

feels definitely more devious and is probably the scum SE in this game.

I don't really see the case on

NJAC

. My scumread of this slot was dependent on

BloodB0t

flipping red and that didn't happen so Tejate Raichu and his successor are probably town.

Here's the remaining playerlist with myself and my townreads shaded green:

Moonshot

, replacing Emollient

Wayward Son

Enchant

, replacing CornPuffBuddha

NJAC

, replacing Tejate Raichu

Salsabil Faria

Greeting

KittyTacky

So, I guess it's

Moonshot

/

Salsabil Faria

.

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

[Greeting]

I'm sorry, I will read up on this tomorrow and provide some content.

Thanks for the quick rundown NJAC

I was just wondering what were you doing in this thread and then I noticed that Moonshot was finally replaced. Welcome.

[Greeting]

Wait! What? Why are you scum reading Moonshot?

I'm also interested in your town read on Enchant.

If I am townreading everyone except for

Salsabil Faria

, then my townreads are obviously wrong, because we have two scums left. Which is why the Moonshot/

BBT

temporary townread had to go. I want to eliminate

Salsabil Faria

first, because she's obviously buddying up to

Enchant

right now to get my miselim.

I am worried that my townread of

KT

over his meta is wrong though. But I don't think

KT

is scum with

Salsabil

, as she has been gunning for him for most of the game.

Enchant

is a troll, and he's not going to help us solve this game. He replaced into a slot I townread though - CornPuffBuddha. I have a feeling that it would have been better for this game if CPB stayed, but what's done is done.

[Greeting]

BTW, @Greeting, are you fully caught up at this moment?

Also, why exactly you were so absent during this D2?

I was absent because of RL reasons.

Why is the reason for my absence relevant though? I said I would give my input enough time before EoD that it can be discussed and I did. I am not okay with the main wagons because I'm town and I am not convinced that you're scum at all, so I suggest that we eliminate the deepwolf today.

[Greeting]

Okay Greeting. In that case you should seriously consider voting Kitty.

Let me restate my case:

1) I really doubt his only scum read during the whole D1 was Calum and only Calum. He didn't even make an effort to try to understand Calum's motivations and what you were saying about him being a newbie. So Kitty simply decided to keep his vote on a likely mislim the whole D1.

2) Kitty is not trying to solve the game and his contribution has been null. He can rely on meta to avoid being eliminated, because apparently many of you have played with him and know that he is anti town, no matter his alignment.

3) He insists that he forgot about the game, and make empty promises to improve activity, but that hasn't happened. What calls my attention the most is that his first post on D2 is again: "I forgot about this game", which looks to me like an attempt to "prove" that he did nothing during the night phase. But why bothering mentioning that when D2 has just begun? Also he said that he was going to catch up, but at that point not much really happened since his last post (347). If he wasn't indeed fully caught up at that moment he could easily just read the posts after his 347, and I think he at least did read the mod post with the revelation of Calum's role, i.e. post 375, and probably also the NK result, post 378. So, I'm saying that Kitty stating that he wasn't fully caught up at that moment is FAKE.

4) I find a lot of resistance to form a wagon on Kitty. If Kitty were town I would expect at least one scum to consider joining that wagon, but that hasn't happened. So I think Kitty is indeed scum and his partner is either explicitly excusing Kitty, maybe talking about not supporting a policy Lim or anything like that, or simply ignoring my attempt to form a wagon on Kitty.

All of this is 100% true, but are you aware of

KittyTacky

's meta? He just... plays like that every time. That's why I am so reluctant to place a vote there.

[Greeting]

Well, I see some of you have played with Kitty before, but for me it's the first time I play with all of you, except BBT, I played with him before.

So no, I don't really know about Kitty's meta. I find his play scummy, anti town and his contribution is minimal IN THIS GAME, which is the game I'm focused on.

If Kitty always plays like this regardless of alignment, then he could easily be scum this game.

Has it happened before, in other games that you are aware of, that forming a wagon on town!kitty is very hard to accomplish?

I understand that you don't know his meta and you may not be a player who forms their reads basing on meta. But, if I know that someone just acts a certain way (just like I know

Enchant

isn't acting differently to what he usually does), regardless of their alignment, then I know better than to scumread them for that one thing. If I want to get an accurate read, I will need to look for clues between the lines, which I did, and found enough reasons for a weak townread.

Either way, I don't really want to eliminate

KT

for the reasons listed, because for this certain player they're all kinda NAI.

I do not know of games where a

KT

wagon was hard to accomplish, and I've played with him like 2-3 times before. But I don't really buy the fallacy that "wagon on x is so hard to achieve" = "x is scum". Very often there's no correlation between the two, it's just the case is not convincing enough.

Greeting, do you have an actual read on Kitty?

Did you miss the post where I did a whole analysis of

KittyTacky

's ISO (510) with conclusions?

[Greeting]

Less than 9 hours left until deadline. This is not much. I will not be around for EoD as it is the middle of the night for me.

I have made my case. I suggest not to go after

NJAC

. Maybe it isn't a good example, as normally in games people would be putting one of the main wagons at E-1 and having them claim. But honestly, I just don't really feel like going with either of these two.

NJAC

is wrong, but, in my opinion, this is wrong town, who is going after book tells and apparently does not like to form reads over meta. I did get a tinge of worry when he said this though:

Has it happened before, in other games that you are aware of, that forming a wagon on town!kitty is very hard to accomplish?

It reminded me of a game where I was miseliminated as town on Day 1 and scum Nero Cain was complaining about my elimination being so hard.

It's just a tinge though. But enough to raise an eyebrow.

[Greeting]

@ Greeting I'm about as sure as I can be on Salsabil, who are you leaning to for a partner? I still think Kitty is viable.

If we flip

Salsabil Faria

and she flips red, I would go after Moonshot/

BBT

on Day 3.

[Greeting]

The game I spoke about in 558 was Mini Normal 2262.

I'ma let ya'll finish posting but Greeting is the hardest wagon ever

Maybe that's because I was town?

[Greeting]

@ Greeting I'm about as sure as I can be on Salsabil, who are you leaning to for a partner? I still think Kitty is viable.

Oh, and regarding a

Salsa

/

Kitty

team, I think it's less likely than other pairings as she did go after

Kitty

on Day 1 and it seemed to me like she really did want him to flip. So if we have a

Salsa

/

Kitty

team in this game, she would be playing a bold and risky game as scum by putting her teammate in the spotlight early in the game like this. This type of play is less common than people think.

But, truthfully, I do not know

Salsabil Faria

's meta so I can't tell if this would be typical of her play or not.

[Greeting]

Well done. I wouldn't have caught him. I guess I should have sheeped

NJAC

.

[Greeting]

Yeah. I'm alive probably because I was town reading Greeting.

Wayward Son

was townreading me as well, though?

[Greeting]

To tell you the truth, I don't know. Almost every case I've made in this game feels wrong so I'd rather let others present their cases now and evaluate them.

[Greeting]

Okay, but gun to your head what's your guess?

BBT

.

[Greeting]

I don't think it's Greeting.

510 makes it unlikely I think?

Why? I think he was defending Kitty there.

I was defending

KittyTacky

. Does that make me scum though?

[Greeting]

I HAVE INTERNET SHORTCAGE

I AM TRACKER, SALSA DIDN'T MOVE LAST NIGHT

GO FIGURE I AM BUSY

Whom did you target on Night 1?

[Greeting]

Want to explain that one?

I don't really have a full case on you. You contributed the least to the game of all living players. Your predecessor, Moonshot, made 1-2 towny posts and then probably got burnt out and replaced out. That's off the top of my mind I can think of.

It's not me, probably not

NJAC

, and

Enchant

has just claimed and townfirmed

Salsabil Faria

.

[Greeting]

I don't think it's Greeting.

510 makes it unlikely I think?

Why? I think he was defending Kitty there.

I was defending

KittyTacky

. Does that make me scum though?

That alone doesn't make you scum, but it was such a blatant and reiterated defense, which together with other things you've done in this game make you scum.

What other things?

[Greeting]

Okay, but gun to your head what's your guess?

BBT

.

Why didn’t you consider me here?

Enchant

cleared me on the later post...

Because you pushed for a

KittyTacky

wagon, and then hammered him. Which would make you a bad elimination for today anyway.

Plus, I'm no longer confident in my own reads, because they've not been great this game.

[Greeting]

Since there are no actual newbies left, everybody should know that I’m a Vanilla Townie. If you want to hammer me, then go ahead, but I'll be voting for actual scum today.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[Greeting]

Congratulations to town for winning the game!

I am a bit salty as I do feel like I played well and lost because of factors which were out of my control. Nonetheless, I did commit mistakes - I should have bussed KittyTacky instead of defending him, and probably killed NJAC Night 2 instead of Wayward Son.

[Greeting]

@lendunistus

I have no redactions.

[Greeting]

Oh, and thank you for hosting the game.

ggwp!

I got killed N1 in both my games for sussing the mafia that everyone else was townreading.

No, you got killed, because you softclaimed.

[Greeting]

I think the same Greeting: you were doing a good job. Just some minor mistakes as you mentioned, but after Kitty's death it was hard to win.

When I woke up and saw KittyTacky was hammered, I knew we lost. Even if somehow I managed to vote out BBT on Day 3, I would be pretty much forced to kill Enchant on Night 4, which would leave me, you and Salsabil Faria on Day 4. And there was essentially no chance of me convincing either of you that I am not scum.

Maybe had I not killed Wayward Son, he would have been the vote I needed to get a miselim on the last day. But that's just speculation to be fair and I'm not at all sure if the end result wouldn't have been the same.

Back on Day 2, I was still hoping to get a miselim on Salsa or yourself, and then have Kitty bus me on Day 3. The KittyTacky elimination was generally completely justified from town point of view, and if I were town, I'd absolutely have joined in. But, the manner in which it went down made it impossible for me to have joined in as it was a speedwagon in the middle of the night. And that's the part where we got really unlucky.

Nonetheless, town did play well in this game, and if we count both of us as a team, then town did better, and deserved the win.

[Greeting]

Oh, and thank you for hosting the game.

ggwp!

I got killed N1 in both my games for sussing the mafia that everyone else was townreading.

No, you got killed, because you softclaimed.

Yeah you're right. You played well this game, you had almost everyone convinced you were town.

Congratulations to town for winning the game!

I am a bit salty as I do feel like I played well and lost because of factors which were out of my control. Nonetheless, I did commit mistakes - I should have bussed KittyTacky instead of defending him, and probably killed NJAC Night 2 instead of Wayward Son.

Yeah that but you did a very good job Almost everyone town was reading you.

Thank you. Both of you did a good job for your team though and BloodB0t was actually the first player in the game to sus me.

[Greeting]

By the way, if you’re feeling comfortable jumping into the Normal queue, an 11p mini I’m hosting is next in line. Everyone from this game is more than welcome to join in.

[Greeting]

Sorry for letting you down, Greeting. I'm a shit player but I try my best to improve.

I don't think it's wise to get yourself down by calling yourself a "shit player". Let's just say that you underperformed in this game and that there is room for improvement.

If you roll mafia, ask yourself: How would a good town-aligned player who wants to uncover scum, act in this situation? And then pretend you're one. This is, of course, just for starters, as crisis situations in the game arise, which as scum you need to manage. Just like I tried to talk town out of eliminating you. You need to constantly win over the approval of actual townies and mislead them into miseliminating other townies.

Posting a few poorly reads and constantly excusing yourself for not playing the game won't cut it.

[Greeting]

*poorly explained

[Greeting]

@

KittyTacky

If you want to improve your play, I suggest browsing around the wiki articles, I think even seasoned mafia players can find interesting and helpful stuff there.