Newbie 2101 | Better Call Saul | Game Over

[Corwinoid]

Sup Rad.

I have not read the thread yet, will catch up asap though.

[Corwinoid]

I'm six pages in and a smattering of more recent stuff, and my off the cuff impression is that Early D1, at least was a total flustercluck. Somebody tell me it gets better please.

I have two specific things I'm suspect of so far, and the first is that this Rad doesn't feel like town Rad I've seen before. Like, at all.

I'm gonna hold on to the other one until I look at it was fresh eyes in the morning since I'm tired.

PS: I was really hoping BBT would still be alive when I subbed in so we had the whole crew back. I'm disappointed in all of you for this >< (/s)

[Corwinoid]

Does anybody have a VC? Can I get a current VC?

I'm at the start of D2, and my main thought right now is "furtive, wtf?". Still feeling rad's play is outside his town range.

[Corwinoid]

Phone posting but... Being town isn't significantly different from being scum in terms of having a set of play styles you normally exhibit. Being proactively analytical isn't something I've seen from Rad in other games I've played. I don't usually put a lot of stock in meta but this seems abnormal play for town!Rad from what I've seen before.

I've been out most of the afternoon and I won't be home for a bit yet, so I haven't caught up more than before.

[Corwinoid]

I should learn to let the thread breathe, but I can really only dig in this much late night.

Nah, keep doing you. High quality posts are fine, it's only choking the thread when it's inane one sentence / one word posts that don't actually add anything.

FTR I wasn't in 2097, I played with you in 2095(? I haven't actually checked) where you spent most of the game sheeping whiskey until we offed him, then sheeping Bella until ELO, where you went hairbrained and got lucky.

You and furtive are both making a mountain out of a mole hill though. "My initial reaction upon entry with barely having read any of the thread" probably didn't warrant this much discussion unless one of the two of you wanted something out of it. I might come back to that point later... right now I'm actually confused about how you two even read each other, probably because I'm missing a chunk of recent context though.

[Corwinoid]

Roden sus bad entrance
Corwinoid town good entrance

Can you explain?

Roden's reasoning for voting Corwin, it's just 'Esires slot feels like it should've had a lot more heat by now though.' For day 2 I feel like a vote should have more reasoning behind it. The implication is that the slot would have come under more heat by now if it was town. Which is dumb, the slot has come under heat, it just hasn't been eliminated yet. It's a really surface level thought.

Almost exactly what I was thinking. That's a really odd place to jump in with "esires could have been elimed instead" when I don't recall this slot being pressured or close to elim anyway, and I don't understand the point of suggesting it was immediately a better play.

My takeaway from day 1 was that it was just awful. I have a hard time differentiating most of the players in my head still and it was too quick--I don't even know who I would have wanted to elim day 1 instead of BBT (but BBT was bad, and the timing was bad).

[Corwinoid]

On the contrary, Corwin is killing my Esires town read.

Why? Because I didn't come in sheeping your play as obvtown this game? Because I *very lightly* said I think this doesn't look like your usual town play and you decided to blow up over it and omgus your read? Like, do you have a justification for this that isn't "I don't like people questioning me, and now I have a reason to change my reads on a slot?"

You have literally taken one sentence, out of an incredibly early read, and made pages out of it and wrapped your head around some paranoia that I'm pushing you or misreading you. I wasn't, at all, but this kind of self-aware reactionary thing that you've come up with in response to it doesn't read town to me at all.

Honestly I wanted to see how furtive responded to it, but you've kind of run off with it for pretty much no reason at all. The lack of antipathy from the rest of town right now worries me, especially given the lack of effort out of day one. It would be easy as hell for scum to just lurk through this game with minimal effort and let town rip itself apart (which I find most likely), or for scum to try and drive an antipathic town with posts that look like analytic content. What I'm not seeing from you that I'd like to see is more than half-assed attempts at re-engaging the inactive parts of town to motivate the game; without that your analysis looks self-motivated and not team motivated.

[Corwinoid]

I don't dislike corwin's entrance today.

If you knew 100% that corwin was wrong in his claims about my town play, and that he was misrepresenting me, does your opinion of his entrance change?

But Corwin isn't 100% wrong, because his experience with you is not this. His experience with you is sheeping the fuck out of two other players for 99% of a game, and very casual interactions that should be nai under serious analysis. I'm also not the kind of player to put a lot of stock into meta to go reading all of your *other* games that I'm not a part of. The notion that my prior interactions with you are wildly misrepresentave here are an absolute flat out lie in and of itself... maybe I have a misrepresentative sample, but

I have never seen you play this way

.

[Corwinoid]

@Meg, I usually hate read lists, but can I get yours for the current point in the game?

[Corwinoid]

Peta's hammer is interesting, I understand they got town locked early on but the hammer wasn't great.

There was still time in the day and Esires could've been voted out if everyone waited for a replacement.

I can only assume Peta got NK'd because scum didn't think there's ever a chance they get run up, this doesn't seen like a PR hunt.

The laptop I'm on right now is somehow worse than my phone, so don't expect any multiquotes from me tonight, sorry.

Literally you're third post. I know you meant BBT instead of Peta in the first sentence, but you pretty much came into the game with "We coulda elimed esires instead!" Which only looks like trying to revert to an easy prior day wagon instead of actually trying, or pushing for info today instead of drumming up what might be an easy wagon in lazytown.

[Corwinoid]

Also, when I said this slot didn't feel pressured yesterday... like, it didn't. It didn't even register to me that it was the counter wagon or anybody was seriously pushing it with any vigor. It just seemed like the ball got rolling and everyone went with it instead of putting any effort in or actually pressuring anyone--which is exactly why BBT got shipped with what, 2, or 3 days left?

I'm not kidding when I say it's hard to differentiate the players from day one. Nobody did anything meaningful or memorable or really stood out, none of the events really caught me. I'm going to have to go through it a second time at some point and literally just go name by name post by post because nobody in this game wanted to dig at other people and set their own tone or force anyone else to.

[Corwinoid]

VOTE: Meg

Why?

[Corwinoid]

Oh, okay. I just completely misunderstood what you were saying there then.

[Corwinoid]

@Roden: furtive, for different reasons, but I'm not super gung ho about it yet.

I don't know how I read Meg yet, and I'm concerned about Bella and FP being LA/low content since I repped in. I want more 1 on 1 time with all three before I make up my mind.

[Corwinoid]

Curse my tired mind for messing up the rickroll link

VOTE:

[Corwinoid]

Hey guys, I'm just dropping in for a minute to say I got unexpectedly slammed at work yesterday and today, and then stuck in traffic for like 3 hours tonight. I'll catch up after I get some sleep and be on tomorrow before and after work... sorry for the lapse.

[Corwinoid]

Curse my tired mind for messing up the rickroll link

VOTE:

Is this a joke or real?

Reading through because I can't sleep. That was a joke.

Just in case...
UNVOTE:

[Corwinoid]

repp me out. i refuse to play with Bulba

In that case, rep me out too. I would like to take a break and some important IRL matters have come up.

Not sure how much against the rules it is to discuss this, but I feel like this interaction came out of nowhere and convinced me that these two weren't S/S. Tbh I don't think it's even S/T because of how bizarre it was, but I'm less confident on that.

Was there ever any context about this exchange? Because I never found anything that explained it.

Both posts and discussing it would be dangerous OGI. I wouldn't go there.

[Corwinoid]

Why is it unlikely that scum is in Meg/Corwin/Bella exactly?

It's just rare that both scum are in a bad enough position and town hasn't misread some town or bad-town player that the day 2 scum pool has very much accuracy. It happens, but not often.

[Corwinoid]

Lol, Rad had a BBT scum game and I haven't read it yet? It's definitely going in the pile now.

He was a blast to scum it up with, yeah?

[Corwinoid]

He do that. It's especially hard if it's your

first scum game

:looking upwards:

[Corwinoid]

VOTE: fancy

I slept in. Have my own reasons on top ofrodents, but was leaning this way anyway.

[Corwinoid]

*sigh* I'm so bloody confused right now. I thought furtive TMI'd earlier in the game which was what my "revisit it" comment was about, but I put it aside, until the fancy-defense of "he's not here guys" smacked of partnering. But now I can't find the post that triggered the initial TMI thought, so maybe it was all in my head.

But furtive, why would you want to keep the slot that's inactive / replacing just before deadline vs. one of the *currently* active players we have more info about going into D3? I hate pushing on an inactive/LA role in newbie games, but it's basically extending the current gamestate into the next day instead of having to potentially sus out entirely new player in that slot. I have more info about the players in the game right now than I do about a mystery player jumping into a claim right before the day ends, and then having to fire-wagon someone else.

[Corwinoid]

I meant to add to that, also reading through furtive's ISO there were a few comments that just really resonated as town... not even like main parts of the posts, just things that were like "Yeah, this" or "I had that exact thought." And not just one thing, there were a bunch of little comments in the middle of posts that kept pinging my towndar.

[Corwinoid]

What even is 772? Seriously, did you even put thought into this? "X doesn't make sense as scum" or "X only makes sense as town" is *exactly* the kind of thing scum should be looking to do, especially when dropped into facing elim.

scum!Nero repping it at -1 can literally do anything, things town!nNero would do and even wouldn't do... if scum then fliping off town as a desperation move makes total sense, if it doesn't work he just walks into the probably elim anyway; if it does he sets up a potential cc later by soft claiming. Seriously, you just leveled yourself here. WIFOM so hard you drugged the cups yourself with something you aren't immune to.

Also, why claim intent to literally just walk it back like "lol, yeah, I'm not actually going to hammer." With almost nothing in between to indicate you're walking back on the wagon? This entire sequence doesn't make sense.

Nothing Nero's done since he joined has done anything to make that slot look more favorable to me, if anything it's just soured me even more.

[Corwinoid]

I slept in. Have my own reasons on top ofrodents, but was leaning this way anyway.

unless you want to argue that this is scum blatantly sheeping his buddy

Is there anybody in this game you haven't shit on in three pages except the person who's essentially buddy claimed you?

[Corwinoid]

Nothing you've done is a sincere attempt to progress. It's self-serving discord sowing.

[Corwinoid]

Yes, because pushing you on bad logic is so scum, right? Instead of letting you do the dumb openly I'm going to call you out on it so you logic a little better when I'm playing against you. Makes perfect sense for scum!Corwin to help you out.

[Corwinoid]

UNVOTE:

I meant to do this earlier but I think I shut my phone off at work mid post and forgot about it.

[Corwinoid]

UNVOTE:

[Corwinoid]

I slept in. Have my own reasons on top ofrodents, but was leaning this way anyway.

unless you want to argue that this is scum blatantly sheeping his buddy

Is there anybody in this game you haven't shit on in three pages except the person who's essentially buddy claimed you?

yeah, I'm shitting on people. I called out some questionable posting from Bellas slot and called Roden scummy for som shit logic and think that you are scummy. Thats just scumhunting, nothing more nothing less. This post does nothing but try to demonize me.

And yet it's all just sowing discord instead of making serious attempts to solve or progress. At least the scum pools are completely bifurcated now, but you and furtive have all of the opacity of saran wrap.

[Corwinoid]

you think im scum but are unvoting me?

No. I think you're probably town, now. I just don't think you're being helpful at this point in it.

[Corwinoid]

I believe in my logic. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong. You calling it dumb is anti-town.

WIFOM leveling yourself because "X only makes sense as town" is dumb. Period. That kind of thinking is anti-town -- telling you that kind of thinking is anti-town and bad from either alignment isn't anti-town. If I'm scum telling you your logic is bad is inherently against my wincon instead of just letting you keep on keeping on.

[Corwinoid]

you and furtive have all of the opacity of saran wrap

This is kinda cute and I feel would be hard to pull out of my ass and feel comfortable saying as scum lol

bad logic though right?

Seriously? Furtive buddied the fuck out of AFK fancy and then Nero comes in with a SC like that and casts aspersions on anyone who isn't furtive? They're an informed pair. There's your fucking logic that isn't a pit of WIFOM.

[Corwinoid]

So, the scum pools are either furtive/nero, or meg/bella/roden.

[Corwinoid]

you are calling me scum while also calling me town. pick one

I find it far far more likely that an informed town pair would play this transparently than a scum team. It should be pretty clear by unvoting which side of that I'm on right now.

Sorry for having real life obligations that kept me from posting the uv sooner.

[Corwinoid]

I've had a bad week, and I have to work most of the day tomorrow too. I should have been asleep like two hours ago... Rad I'll be on tomorrow evening,

about

10 hours before deadline if you want to talk then. I might have a few chances to post mid day, but it's unlikely if I ever want to see home again this weekend.

[Corwinoid]

Sorry for having real life obligations that kept me from posting the uv sooner.

I'm not worried about that. You called me scum several times lately but you also called me town so its like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

At what point did I call you scum? I addressed the phallacy that scum!you doesn't do town!you things because they don't make sense as scum--which is awful logic, anything that makes sense as town makes sense as scum. I said the scum pools are bifurcated now, meaning the game is split into two potential pools, which you are in one -- the one I find less likely ATM.

[Corwinoid]

I believe that all these are implying that you scum read me. At the time I thought that the last post was was you calling me and furt a scum team but I guess its your belief that you think me and Furt are masons, wich we are not.

I'm not implying you're scum, I'm saying that post- self-preservation it really doesn't feel pro-town. Yeah, I think the entire sequence of furtive pressing back on you maybe being a PR and then you soft claiming and sheeping that slot onto Bella without reading the rest of the game heavily implies you're an informed pair.

[Corwinoid]

What exactly have I done for self-preservation? Like yeah sure, scum have to try to stay alive but town do it as well although I don't think I've done anything like what you are claiming. I never was softing PR, that's Rodens own made-up fantasy.

If you're going to claim VT then claim VT, there's now point in "I'm town" as VT without a role claim there unless you're soft claiming or setting up a cc later. Roden's completely correct about this.

[Corwinoid]

If it's E-1, then intent to hammer.

Stop assuming shit Nero, I already said she's in one of my scum pools for how I'm reading the game.

[Corwinoid]

I think we're off hours for Bella though, so I'll wait a while before I do it.

[Corwinoid]

In general I agree with furtive though, I'd rather be at odds than evens.

[Corwinoid]

Yeah, it's no elim if there's not a majority vote.

[Corwinoid]

12-2 my time probably, somewhere in there... I'd need to check the timer to see how far off that is from deadline (4-6 hours from now). I might be up a little later than that though also.

[Corwinoid]

Location is correct.

[Corwinoid]

Do you think corwin should have been ran up instead of bella?

I for one do not.

--

But seriously, voting furtive here, from my perspective, is essentially the same as voting Nero for reasons I've given. If I think they're town together my vote should be one of the other four and I've excluded Rad from my potentials group.

I don't think anything I've read against furtive is entirely compelling. The bit about admitting he's apathetic to the game irks me, and I might be willing to toss him on that alone -- but I don't think it's pro-town to d2 elim someone in a newbie setup and probably go to d3 elo just because they might need a breather.

[Corwinoid]

I dunno how town!Corwin concludes that I'm not analytical in my town games but I also don't know why scum!Corwin announces such an easily disprovable lie.

Because I don't go reading your other games.

Play this one, not your other ones.

My

personal

experience with you does not match this game -- perhaps that's a poor reflection of your general play, but I don't understand how you keep misunderstanding this. You have not played like this in other games I've played with you.

[Corwinoid]

We have 3 hours Meg, I'll be here and I'll hammer. I still want to give bella a chance to show up and claim first.

[Corwinoid]

Or not.

[Corwinoid]

I don't intend to hammer Bella

[Corwinoid]

cor could you explain why you were angry last night?

Bad day, grouchy, and your tone when I finally got back into the game was grating me (sorry).

[Corwinoid]

Long day at work, came home to a bunch of stuff to do also, I'll catch up and be substantive in a little.

[Corwinoid]

I take back what I said in 981, I am shockingly tired and I just want to go to bed now.

My first thought after night was Meg, but my scum pool is still Roden/Meg and I'd go for either. Really feels like Roden is targeting me as an easy mislim today though.

[Corwinoid]

Meg, thoughts on why Furtive died?

Corwin claimed that Nero and Furtive were likely Masons because they seemed like an informed pair. I don't think anyone else here has a reason to kill Furtive, since if I'm scum I'd want to keep him around as a mis-elim option, and everyone else would want me to 1v1 him/let Furtive counter attack me today after failing to counter wagon Bella.

You could literally say that about almost any slot, if you're scum you want to keep them around as a mislim option. If I'm scum and I think they're masons there's no investigative there--there's no reason for me to kill in that pair and have it point directly at me after I pushed the mason theory. It would make more sense for me to kill you or Meg and have it point at one of them instead, and wait until tonight to kill one of the players I think is a mason.

I take back what I said in 981, I am shockingly tired and I just want to go to bed now.

My first thought after night was Meg, but my scum pool is still Roden/Meg and I'd go for either. Really feels like Roden is targeting me as an easy mislim today though.

What makes you think that you're an easy mis-elim?

I'm at E-1 right now

because I was tired

. WTF kind of question is that?

[Corwinoid]

Yeah, and it's real easy for scum to just coast on that and hoe for confusion tomorrow after I get limmed, right?

[Corwinoid]

Intent to hammer Corwin

Prez F for me.

It's okay to be wrong

[Corwinoid]

claim or just be a doll and self hammer if scum

VT.

Not playing to win con isn't an option anyway.

@Rad, don't ever think this. If I'm scum I can't win tomorrow; if I'm town I can't win tomorrow. There's no path to victory for either side with me living through the day.

[Corwinoid]

Just flip me bro.

[Corwinoid]

GG Town.

This one wasn't fun.

I had some funny shit I was gonna drop in the PT, but only about half of it got dumped before I was too tired for it. Gonna let it simmer a bit before I give any other thoughts.

[Corwinoid]

@CSF Thanks for backing up HEM on this one.

[Corwinoid]

Why wasn't this fun, just b/c your team lost or b/c lurkfest?

It was ultra scuffed for us before you repped in. Getting Fancy was the last shot we had... I called the loss when you took the slot, you weren't going to misread Bella / Bulb (who was so incredibly scum this should have been a perfect Town win). After that and misreading furtive and Meg (I think?) it was just running it down.

[Corwinoid]

I don't think we could have bussed out of Bella's death either. The RVS assoc. was too strong with Bulb/esires I should have been today's kill automatically (at least you missed *that*)... but I had to hit the PR last night to have a chance. I did post a bunch of thoughts on that in the PT when it opens.

[Corwinoid]

I thought furtive was pr breadcrumbing. You did too then?

My exact thought on this was "If furtive intentionally drew the kill that's some next level shit" (in a newbie game).

My masons read was genuine, it wasn't until today I figured out it's probably Meg JK.

[Corwinoid]

The plan on mason/mason was to push Meg today and go Nero/Roden into ELo, then play victim/easy target. I intentionally didn't take the quick night to not be in off hours, but the late day start was in hard off-hours for me and it ran away from me there.

[Corwinoid]

Rad was definitely the target to get you mled. You came in timely, and pretty strong too... well played. We were already on the back foot though, and even that was kind of a last-chance to get some kind of control over the situation.

[Corwinoid]

I *seriously* thought about a no kill last night to draw out the PR too, but I over-read the masons thing.

[Corwinoid]

How was I crumbing? Not something I meant to do.

This "this guy might be a PR" bit absolutely stole the show for me.

[Corwinoid]

Give you three guesses who

Gah... FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU@#$#@*()$&@#(*$&@(*#$&(*&(@#)_!@_)(

[Corwinoid]

I *seriously* thought about a no kill last night to draw out the PR too, but I over-read the masons thing.

Would not have gone well, you did what you could have

Un-fucking-believable that furtive drew the read into the right setup. It didn't hit until he flipped VT that you were playing more JK/doctorish... definitely didn't see you coming up as a pair.

Incredibly well played.

[Corwinoid]

I think if anybody had gone back after Bellas' flipped and taken a good look at the Bulb/esiris associative it was plainly obvious.

We (I?) were incredibly afraid that either one of us flipping made it a lock for town.

[Corwinoid]

Was that in day 1 or 2? I skipped early day 2 before I joined so I could intentionally play off having picked up in esires' shoes as a consistency tell. I don't remember much of day 1 except launching BBT was hilariously bad, the NK was hilariously bad, and Bulb was so obviously scum it was disappointing I had a red card.

[Corwinoid]

how long is the scum pt, did you and Bella talk much?

3 pages. As much as we had time for... we're pretty friendly in general, and our time slots don't match at all, and she was sick. All of the third page is just me monologuing today though.

[Corwinoid]

Yeah, I'm not sure what the scum read on this slot was, because my predecessor wasn't that memorable. Bulb though... oh man... there was one post where I was literally like "There's no way in hell I'd let that live through the day... how did a game full of SE replacements miss this?"

[Corwinoid]

Hitting last night was my last hope, but it was pretty thin even then I think.

Something like: I kill meg, roden claims, elim you, and I take Nero/Rad into ELo. I don't think I'm winning that though either.

[Corwinoid]

Town played a really solid game overall. There wasn't a whole lot to work with... I think this town wins regardless of when or where I come in. Just kind of crushing to start so far behind the game.

[Corwinoid]

Everyone calling me obvious scum. OK. Guess I have to improve my scumgame then or just hope I don't flip it anymore

Sorry Bulb

@Mod: No redactions. Everyone's mature enough to deal with anything unflattering that might have been said during game I think.

[Corwinoid]

(i didn't think you were obvious though!)

A bunch of seasoned players I respect missed it, so I think it was more obvious replacing in and getting hit with all of it at once. There was one post in particular.

Mechanically the only thing I bitched about was the extended partner RVS. That's a pretty hard association for the scum team post flip, but it is what it is. I probably wouldn't even care that much in a mini, but we got hit with so many replacements and a NewD3 that's all pretty experienced players so it constrained how much I thought I could bus that slot. It also made me really leery of talking about the D1 content in case someone went back and talked about it.

That, at least, was more or less my internal reasoning about it.

[Corwinoid]

No redactions, although corwin may want to redaxt one of my posts for me which is fine .

I forgot about that... no, it's fine. I haven't been exactly open about it but I've mentioned it publicly also.

[Corwinoid]

Since we're on the topic and I'm still technically a newbie, I think the biggest off-putting thing for me w/regards to wanting to stick around and play more is the length of the games. When I'm in a game I want to be super active but when a day is 7+ days long and a night is 2+ long, there's a ton of boring downtime and the game becomes stagnant. I tried to fill that by playing multiple games at once but what happens is activity requirements then spike too high during busy times and still crash into nothing other times. Shorter day and night would emphasize "this is the time to play" I think and make games more active in general because you're committing to a smaller amount of time. You can't expect people to commit to consistent heavy activity for the next month and that's what these day lengths require for the game to be consistently interesting.

Beyond that, I've also never gotten a PR so that's been fairly boring. This newbie setup feels weighted against scum and that makes scum even less interesting to play. 3rd party could also spice things up.

i hate to even say this because it increases the likelihood you'll flee us at the first available opportunity but the phase lengths here are abnormal to most other forums - probably a byproduct of the site's age and the mentality of doing things like we always have. for me personally i greatly prefer it - as an adult with a day job, the daily time commitment expected in most places is unrealistic and insane. here i can check in once a day for an hour or two which is a reasonable time investment (of course i'm slacking off to post during the day now, but no matter). i recognize though that ain't for everyone and the way people use the internet now is vastly different from how it was even 10 years ago


it's historically been very hard to get games with shorter deadlines to fill here and when they do people often slack off abnormally hard in them (somehow they post less frequently than in a normal length game) so i don't anticipate site meta shifting to accommodate that. there was an attempt at a blitz queue several years ago but it got killed off pretty quickly.

Yeah I hear ya peta. It's just much easier to commit to a week of doing only mafia at night than a whole month (or more for large!). Maybe if I was more restrictive with when I let myself play and was able to not have it in the back of my mind all day I would like the length better and I like this community so was just looking for a way to make it work.

The regular minis don't feel that long to me, honestly. I think you'll enjoy the closed minis a lot more -- the large you're familiar with is not the norm for most of the site, and I, personally, treat them more as events when I choose to do them rather than expecting it's the regular way I'm going to play.