Newbie 2116 - Booza (Game Over)

[Deltabreedy]

VOTE: Alianna

Partaking in RVS with a non-RVS vote.

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It's my belief that the primary purpose of all town-aligned players is to push us out of RVS in as rapid a manner as possible to facilitate productive discussion and maximise the playtime we get in D1.

Alianna has done this, followed up with some questions and gets a slight townread from me.

Mine was semi RVS, semi 'this'll get some chat going'.

UNVOTE: Alianna
VOTE: Black

I don't like anyone relying on meta out of the gate, especially when it seems like it stymies pressure that would lead to productive post-RVS discussion.

[Deltabreedy]

Also, as a note

@All: I'll have no access to MS on Sunday 12/03 more likely than not.

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UNVOTE:

This behavior from Human matches his behavior in a game we just finished playing so I can't say that I agree with you mallow

This is literally using meta to justify unvoting.

Additionally, this was in reaction to Human being put at E-2.

3 posts prior to this, you said:

I'm not seeing the harm at putting someone at e-2. Let's assume all town votes are on the wagon. Do we really think the wolves will come through and quick hammer that? And if we assume there is one (or even two) wolves on the wagon already then townies coming through to hammer is also very unlikely

Sometimes putting someone at e-2 is good for reactions and to see how other players interact with that game state. Especially if you think that person's entrance was more likely to come from a wolf than a townie

So are you townreading Human as a result of meta? Even if that is the case, you made the case in #31 that it likely wouldn't lead to a quickhammer anyway, so I don't understand the very sudden reluctance after.

Keen to hear more opinions on this from people.

[Deltabreedy]

Not really - the posts are nullified by the effect of you contradicting your 'push out of RVS' in viewtopic.php?p=13681356#p13681356

Additionally, your slight TR on Human as you say is based on meta, and I find it highly suspect that you're lifting yourself from a wagon out of a sense of what, self-preservation over getting out of RVS? Didn't you say in #31 that putting someone to E-2 is good for reactions? I find it really odd that you would then back off from a wagon at E-2 and justify it with meta and 'not wanting to be associated'.

Silly & Goofy. And voteworthy. Can we get a few pressure votes on Black?

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I hate that I forgot to put the post number in for the URL.

Anyway yeah lets vote Black.

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VOTE: kawaii

Has your view on Alianna changed, and why Kawaii?

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Why don't you think pressure on Human right now would be a good thing?

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EBWOP: The above post is @Black.

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Yeah fair enough @Skitter

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'Putting someone under E-2 for pressure and reactions is good'

'Human goes to E-2'

'I disagree with this *Unvotes*'.

This happened in a 10-post timeframe, and since then Black has also disregarded an invitation to reapply that pressure (that they said would be good) and instead voted for someone who hadn't posted since game start which achieves nothing.

For someone shouting loudly about advancing the game to then stymie a wagon that they themselves said would provide good pressure, to say they've been advancing the game (which I find to be a bit of a stretch) when they're now voting a lurker.

I don't see the town-motivation behind these actions. It's all a bit 'look at how town I am!' in my opinion.

I hope this clarifies the points on Black.

Faint townvibes from Skitter for me.

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Why are you scumleaning on Kawaii but not voting for them?

UNVOTE: Black
VOTE: Human

I believe that is E-2 for both Human and Kawaii.

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But from your most recent readslist, thats the person you think is most likely to be scum. Why wouldn't you want to apply that pressure and turn the screw?

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I don't know you know, I don't see the case on Kawaii myself but you either have faith in your reads or you don't in my opinion.

I also don't particularly like the townsignalling Human did earlier in #39.

At the moment then, I have Black and Human as leaning scum, with minor town vibes emanating from Skitter and Alianna. Struggling on reading Cat and everyone else is kinda null at present.

Ninja'd by Black:
Hate, hate, hate that invitation to WIFOM from Black there.

Im fixated on calling out and questioning things that I find scummy. I think when someone's actions and what they say don't match up, that implies a lack of conviction and a second-guessing which in my experience is typically a scum-motivated mindset.

--

Regarding Black, I know they disagree with my read of the situation, but they stated it was good to put pressure on people by putting them at E-2 and then backed off a wagon the second it hit E-2. Why would their view on this be at contrast with their actions if they were motivated by a desire to put pressure on people and drive us out of RVS, an inherently town-motivated action? My conclusion on that is that their actions are not town-motivated, hence me building a case on Black.

Can I get a sense check on my argument from a few people other than the person I'm FoS'ing?

--

Ninja'd by Alianna and Black:
Nothing really to add off the back of these.

[Deltabreedy]

After a quick ISO, I agree.

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The fact that you're aware of it suggests that you could fake the whole exchange. Like cool, I read the wiki too?

The last few posts from Human make me super uncomfortable

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@Alianna: Various forums, EpicMafia and from hosting TTS Mafia sessions with a community I play with. In the region of 8 years but with vast gaps inbetween.

Adjusting back to forum mafia is a bit of a transition away from short-form and vocal gameplay. My last forum game was god, I think 7 years ago as a minimum. In any case, there is a disconnect between Black's actions and what they said. Human being at E-2 may well not be the reason that they unvoted, but the action itself of unvoting runs contrary to their reasoning for it being good to pressure people with E-2 wagons early on.

The use of meta:

UNVOTE:

This behavior from Human matches his behavior in a game we just finished playing so I can't say that I agree with you mallow

*snip*
As far as relying on meta, I'm not. I was just explaining why I didn't agree that Human was acting scummy

Relying on a read generated from looking at a game that has recently finished is using meta. To state otherwise is disingenuous at best, an outright lie at worst. You put the two actions together and that leads me to the conclusion that Black is operating from a scum-sided mandate.

--

To temper that, Black's #123 makes sense to me but for the part where they are

comfortable voting kawaii atm but I don't want to put them at e-1

. A quickhammer here would I think broadly be an admission of guilt if someone did it after Black took them to E-1 and to me I've always seen being cavalier and daring a bit of a towntell so whilst I can appreciate the case which is well-thought out, I don't follow the course of action taken after.

There's always the chance that Black is simply cautious town, but that doesn't account for the actions earlier on in the day.

[Deltabreedy]

I didn't say you were trying to convince mallow to unvote or change their mind. What I have been saying all along is that your reasoning for unvoting came from meta experience. I don't understand why you're denying that so vehemently.

--

I'm not having a go at Black because of playstyle, I'm having a go because I think their actions aren't coming from a source of town-motivation. Dismissing it as a playstyle difference doesn't change the fact that their actions and their words don't really add up.

[Deltabreedy]

Black disagrees with me cool

UNVOTE:

This behavior from Human matches his behavior in a game we just finished playing so I can't say that I agree with you mallow

Weird, I don't see you removing a jokevote there. What I do see is you justifying a contradiction to your #31 by referencing meta.

Anyone other than Black, tell me if I'm being daft here.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Human
VOTE: Black

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What makes that time not one of the times?

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You say you were pushing us out of RVS, then took an action that ran contrary to pushing us out by your own definition of a good vote.

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There's nothing disingenuous about this - I'm calling it as I see it.

[Deltabreedy]

Because I play offsite with people who know their own meta and can play around or through it. Meta reads, I find, are a pretty cheap and lazy justification for anything, be that scum or townreads. Metas are constantly evolving, and particularly I would say in newbie spaces in which player's gamestyles can improve, change or adapt to wild extents from game to game.

In #76 you also gave yourself space to justify your argument within the game, so it's a very different example. I'll confess I didn't see the reference to meta from Alianna and can't recall it at present. Can you quote the example you're referencing?

[Deltabreedy]

Because for me it implies that you have no faith in your read. Do you think Kawaii is scum?

That said - I had originally read that post as more newbie guidance than anything else, but with you having brought it up that does actually ruffle my feathers, because Alianna was on the Kawaii wagon at that point and then argued against it.

Give me a bit of time to have a thorough re-read and re-evaluate my views.

Ninja'd: Nothing to add on the above two posts.

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Just clocked that Cat's post was answering me,

Having looked at that yeah okay I think I need to sit down and re-evaluate what I'm doing. Bear with.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm going to take a few hours away from this and come back with a clear head. I think I may have been a bit tunnel-visioned over the weekend.

At present my vote remains because I think there's just a couple things that don't add up with Black. That may change when I return and go through it all.

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Weekend? It's Tuesday, don't work nights kids.

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Todays been a busy one for me and I'm not going to be cogently forming arguments by this hour.

I'll be prioritising this in the morning.

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I've struggled to get out of my scumread on Black, for some reason there's just an absolute mental block on me dropping it all. For the record, I do think there is merit to what I have been saying.

That said, I wanted to commit to trying to being a bit more open-minded so I took the position that Black isn't a participant in the game.

--

Kawaii

: I don't like that Kawaii is welcoming votes on them as motivating them to get into the game. I find that to be obtusely anti-town. Town only wins by being involved and getting in amongst it all, hashing out discussions and forming reads. An ISO of Kawaii suggests to me that #161 and #232 are the only truly substantive posts in what, 4 days of gametime now? Plenty has happened. I get the sense that there is some very half-hearted scumhunting here and despite unvoting Alianna they're still plying them with questions that seem designed to me to scumhunt on a townread? The intention doesn't feel like it matches the action taken.

Part of this may well just be a playstyle disconnect, but I do think that there is a lack of meaningful scumhunting and very empty posts that communicate 'I feel [X]' without the justification, reasoning or intent that allow for proper reads to be made. Alarmingly and confusingly, strong anti-town lean which is really throwing me off. I don't find what they are saying particularly helpful in informing my own reads.

--

Mallowgeno

: One would have hoped that posting would take off a bit in the almost two days I have taken away to recuperate and readjust my reads, and honestly it hasn't. It feels like active lurking in that they have a high wordcount whilst saying very little. I get the sense that Human's play (I hope they'll forgive me for saying this) lends itself to an easy 'insurance vote' in that it's pretty easy to justify a vote on Human due to how erratic the gameplay is. Is this maybe scum on scum? #273 suggests that Mallow believes there to be a Human/Skitter scumteam but

I agree here I don't think someone answering for someone else is necessarily scummy unless this is someone trying to protect their partner

exists, and Mallow hasn't at this point offered any kind of read on Skitter, only offering opinions and inviting pressure on Human. There's questions in #104, but nothing denoting a concrete read on Skitter. I'd appreciate clarification on this. Null, leaning scum.

--

Human

: I struggle with this one. I think the reaction after the whole E-1 incident of #107 & #108 would have been a towntell had it been in TTS mafia that I typically play, or in person - but I think it's really hard to read as a result of being over text. My issue with it comes from the retraction and the admission that it was AtE and then what looked like an invitation to WIFOM in #108. I know when I first started with forum mafia way back when I found myself doing things very similarly to Human (and have since reread those games) and part of me almost does have a soft spot for that - but I'm also conscious that Human is aware of their newbie status, and I think that it would be very easy for someone to play into that and get away with it. Null, leaning scum.

--

If either of the above two were to flip scum, I would advocate for a lim on the other, at present even in spite of my recurring read on Black. As I said, these are reads from when I take the position that Black isn't in the game. I'm going to relax a bit and reread, and then have a look at ISO'ing Black and really getting to grips with them in the thread so far. Until such a time as I have done that:

UNVOTE: Black

[Deltabreedy]

Delta's 338 is fine ig but I can't help but laugh that he has to pretend I'm not in the game to get out of his tunnel. *snip*

Oh believe me, I giggled at it too.

[Deltabreedy]

So when going over my case on Black, I decided to try and critically evaluate what I had already stated and then also move on from there.

--

For context, the tunnelling has been a pretty consistent mental block. My previous post with reads on Mallow, Kawaii & Human required me to literally delete Black from the game in my mind to form those reads objectively.

--

To summarise what I had up until when I decided to revaluate:

I believed that Black, whilst they had made posts that seemed like they pushed us out of RVS, there was a contradiction between the intention of pushing us out of RVS and the act of unvoting on an E-2, which they had said was something that would only promote the pushing of the game out of this phase. When quizzed on this, the justification in that post was that the player in question didn't fit the meta of previous days, and later when asked the justification was that they didn't want to be associated with the wagon.

The first reason can be justified as gameplay, the second can't. In my opinion, that was a scummy reason to give but then the argument was made to double down on the metatell not being about meta (despite being textbook meta). This misdirection flustered me and I think was the reason I started to really tunnel in. A townie would defend and contribute, a mafioso would misdirect and move on was the thinking I had.

From then on I was pretty consistently going all in on Black, but with the majority of the players betting on red (hah!) I decided to re-evaluate my arguments.

--

I now lean slight town on Black. I will temper that by saying that I'm not completely void of my initial suspicion.

--

Since that point, I think Black has been much free-er to post and make arguments and I see now that the rhetorical assault I was laying at their feet was restricting them from putting together an argument like chaff from a plane. The VCA on Human, the analysis of the Alianna push and the development of arguments, particularly in the case of Kawaii (meta aside) feels natural. I also appreciate that the unvote comes from a place of not wanting to drop down a WIFOM hole.

Ninja'd by Black: Yeah I'm also getting minor TRs from Alianna and CSF, and at this point of the game I think I'm looking at a Human/Mallow scumteam.

Ninja'd by Kawaii: See this is the kind of thing that makes me want to remove you from the game, if for no other reason than to clarify the room for myself and have less noise in the way of my reads. It's too honest and too erratic. Slide Kawaii into my scumpile. I still think a Human/Mallow scumteam fits the vibes better but I could take a Kawaii lim too.

[Deltabreedy]

Human, whichever way this goes - it's a game. Chill, we all get better with experience and time. I think everyone in the game is enjoying it (or I'd like to think so) so you're not doing any damage or anything to the queue.

We're giving you space and time to write the posts that you need to write, about your reads, your thoughts on the game, your votes etc. Take a breath, have a few minutes break and then come back and tell us who you think we should vote instead. You might convince us, you may not - you won't know until you write and submit the post.

Ninja'd by everyone.

[Deltabreedy]

Isn't that a bit of role fishing for another PR from Skitter?

[Deltabreedy]

Isn't that a bit of role fishing for another PR from Skitter?

That's not how I'm seeing it. Wdym?

The way it was phrased, it sounded like they were asking for another PR to confirm, as opposed to CC's?

I don't know, it's odd but things are moving fast so I don't know how much stock to put in that.

Ninja'd by Alianna, Skitter, Alianna, Arko

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies for the lack of catchup today - I've been away all day and my phone died pretty early in the morning.

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EBWOP: I'll be prioritising this in the morning.

[Deltabreedy]

Welcome Mala!

If you don't want to read all the way through, you can start reading from page 24 where Arko starts to case me & skitter

That's what people are talking about right now

Bad vibes from this.

Ignore 24 pages, just focus on this

when there's been some pretty chunky content in those pages. That said, I kinda vibe with CSF's arguments on just about everything else so not 100% on where to go with this? I haven't scumread them this game so far so idk, maybe just a bit off.

Catching up on things now, currently digesting Arko's wall.

[Deltabreedy]

So with Arko's Skitter/CSF argument, I see it but it also doesnt resonate with me as much as the myriad of reasons to vote Kawaii. From the reasons I have outlined in #338 and then again in an ISO looking at them talking about 'How dedicated he is to this' in #161 and then voting me the next morning in #242 with no additional content from me inbetween. It looks strong, and in isolation can even read as town until you consider what I had last posted.

For context, my #159 and #160 were me saying I was committing to evaluating my reads and thoughts.

With no change in context, the whole sequence looks to me like scum fabricating and sensationalising a read out of nothing and trying to do the following:

A) Buddying up with someone who it seems a lot of players read as town. (Black)
B) Piggybacking off the back of what now with the benefit of hindsight was a complete tunnel. (As I have acquiesced to in #458).
C) Looking like they're being proactive and generating wagons, as opposed to what had at that point (and still beyond) been flimsy play, interspersed with 'I townread votes on me, it makes me contribute!'.

VOTE: KawaiiKame

Slip Arko into my townpile, CSF into my Null leaning Scum and Skitter into my Null list.

[Deltabreedy]

start reading from page 24 where Arko starts to case me & skitter

By telling them specifically to look from that point onwards, and not even including the pages up to their slot's claim or touching on the eventual petering out of my tunnel - you were in effect telling them to gloss over several major developments in the game.

Ninja'd by Arko, CSF & Black.

@Black: I would also like to see more from Mallow in general. I echo what was said in your #667.

@CSF: Hard disagree. Logically it makes sense but they're a replacement into the game, they're going to be aware of the size of the game coming into it. Saying they should skip to 2 pages ago doesn't give a whole context of the thread.

@Arko: Yup

Ninja'd again (

CSF &Black) - god damn it you people need to chill whilst I'm trying to push a post out.

@CSF: That's such a blatant invitation to WIFOM, good god.

UNVOTE: Kawaii
VOTE: CSF

@Black: What are your thoughts on CSF, in brief?

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

@Black: For me it dictates the conversation to the new replacement, who at this stage is an uncontested PR claim. It's pretty powerful for scum to divert attention to something current and developing and invites the conversation. The WIFOM aspect tips it into a scummy exchange for me from CSF.

Ninja'd, of course, by Arko

I'll reply next post.

[Deltabreedy]

Delta and getting ninja'd, name a better combination.

@Arko: I think the big thing for me was that in spite of your efforts to make it palatable, the wall of text was just that - a wall of text. It took me a while to warm up to reading it and I think that the manipulation also comes from there being a new replacement. I'm invested in this game and it took me a while, imagine coming in fresh and trying to digest it!

Not a critique of walls btw, Arko - I love an essay but it just takes a bit of time.

Ninja'd by everyone. Shock horror.

[Deltabreedy]

I thought I had responded to this. My bad!

*snip*

Can you elaborate here? What about Arko's case do you agree with?

The read in #338 is basically Kawaii hasn't posted a lot and hasn't tried to scumhunt. Since then kawaii has probably doubled his post count so what do you think about his content post-#338?

It's between #161 and #242 that I'm questioning kawaii and starting to really get suspicious of him, and I'm not sure I see the buddying so much as I see him defending me against your flimsy case. Disagreeing with you isn't necessarily buddying me

It's less the wall which honestly was more of a postlog (sorry!)

it's the logic displayed in #605 that works for me. Having undergone a period of detunnelization, I'm looking at similar townreads, and then when I go through the ISO of CSF, the vibes were kind of there (hence 'I see it, but here's something I think is better (

Kawaii Lim

). The logic works for me, in terms of making the PoE process work, but I disagree with the eventual outcome? It's made me take a more detailed look at Skitter and CSF, whom I had previously as null , with a millimetre leaning town.

My view certainly has more substance now.

- The sudden switcharoos from inactivity to activity once near a lim stinks. If you're town, it shouldn't take E-1 to get you to reinvigorate your gameplay and pay attention. They've unfortunately contributed precious little of substance, and what they have posted reeks of trying to buddy via defence with Black. It's not the disagreement, because you and others disagreed which is what led to me re-evaluating my reads. It's the sudden burst of pressure after I had made the commitment to review this, which feels like scum trying to apply pressure (misguidedly) on a poorly framed argument. They must have seen the posts I made and I think the language was clear that I was going to radically question my reads - so it reads as a desperate attempt to look good by putting a vote of no consequence on, which was later rescinded anyway.

The buddying doesn't have to be two-way, and I certainly don't think it's scum on scum - but I do think Kawaii made an attempt to get into people's good books by looking busy and applying pressure without any real scumhunting or thought gone into it, something which I think upon an ISO review has remained consistent in their play from start to now, from lurky to omnipresent to lurky. For me? Kawaii is today's lim.

I also maintain that it (The tunnelcase on Black) was a case with merit at the time, that I pursued in the wrong way and have since with the benefit of hindsight abandoned. At the time? It was a very real gut feeling as well as what I saw happening infront of me which like I said back when - I called it how I saw it. I don't think you really need to defend any more against it by calling it flimsy.

[Deltabreedy]

As an addendum:
The thing that really pinged me when it came to CSF receiving my vote was the really manipulative comment. Maybe I've jumped the gun on that (wouldn't be the first time) but I certainly think that this needs looking at a lot closer.

No longer in the heat of the moment and getting ninja'd super quick, I think I'm gut happier with a Kawaii lim today.

UNVOTE: CSF
VOTE: KawaiiKame

[Deltabreedy]

I think your vote's in the right place regardless.

@Arko would you agree with the above and revaluate your reads as I did, or would you feel that Skitter is diminishing your argument?

I'm concerned that Mallow is drifting through this all.

[Deltabreedy]

Intent to hammer

Mallow, because there's no jester/fool in newbie setups, irregardless of alignment it goes against a players' wincon to die. Saying 'meh, I deserve this' doesn't do anything to allay the concerns we all have.

Can we get a little more than that?

If nothing changes, I'll be looking at hammering at around 4pm my time (GMT+0) or in around 8.5 hours time since I am out most of the day until then.

---

Tag fixed ~Mod

[Deltabreedy]

To clarify, I don't think it's playing against your wincon, but irregardless of alignment I don't see how your post can be perceived as anything but 'I deserve this'. It comes across with the same faux-town intonation as Kawaii's 'yeah I townread votes on me because it makes me pay attention'.

More to follow when I'm not on a train that goes through more tunnels than page 2 Delta.

[Deltabreedy]

I haven't switched.

[Deltabreedy]

And yeah, I think the odds are pretty good that we hit scum in Kawaii/Mallow. Whether one flipping scum means the other is also scum is raw speculation and frankly I'm more focused on today's lim than tomorrow's.

[Deltabreedy]

Because I'm confident that within Kawaii and Mallow we hit Mafia.

I'm willing to wait a bit and see if someone comes in on Kawaii who I have a bit more confidence in, but I'm pretty happy to hammer.

Why do you think I shouldn't?

Ninja'd: You're asking me about something that I haven't done though. Intention to hammer and hammering aren't the same thing. Why do you think Mallow is town?

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think it's an either-or. I think both have a high likelihood of being scum.

And in no way am I trying to walk back the intent? I literally put the post up to draw attention to an intention to hammer. My vote remained on Kawaii which was my preferred lim but frankly I could have hammered there and then. Opportunistic? By what, announcing intent post-claim, giving a clear deadline to respond by and inviting them to give more than just a half-hearted 'whelp, I guess so!'.

Skitter, you can comment on the grossness of posts all you want and you're free to read it as you want, but I honestly don't follow what conclusion you're coming to. Trying to lay the ground for a push on me tomorrow is pretty heinous.

[Deltabreedy]

What information in particular are you gleaning from this chat, Black?

[Deltabreedy]

I don't think there's much value to waiting to get a replacement in for Kawaii (I scumread that slot, I'd say I'm pretty unlikely to be swayed by what a replacement says). Anything the slot could say now could probably be said D2 also.

When you say slots you're unsure on, is that Skitter and I?

I concede that there absolutely is value to hearing Alianna's thoughts but I think the best information anyone could get right now really is a flip from Kawaii/Mallow and then being able to dive into interactions with that slot when dawn breaks, looking over what various people did and didn't do with the 'limmed slot.

What makes you think the subjective value from withholding outweighs the value from an objective bit of info?

Also, I am a bit cautious because the fact that you scumread Mallow, would vote for their elimination and yet you would end the wagon after intention to hammer is declared doesn't sit well with me.

Do you think Mallow is scum?
What would your thoughts have been had I declared intent to hammer at 12 or 2 and followed through?

[Deltabreedy]

Idk what it is, the vibes are off or something.

[Deltabreedy]

Could you clarify that, I don't fully get that last post of reads.

And why is Mellow 'prob town'?

[Deltabreedy]

Can you answer #757 whilst we have a bit of time please, Mala?

[Deltabreedy]

Maybe I'm just misreading things because I'm more used to vocalisations, but if it were me at E-1 I'd be fighting tooth and nail against it.

Someone help me on this, because to me going dead quiet and unhelpful at the brink of being limmed is very deliberately being unhelpful and anti-town.

[Deltabreedy]

In reference to Mallow ^^

[Deltabreedy]

Last active (looking at their profile) was early hours of this morning. I don't follow how someone playing town can disregard a game and expect to fulfil their wincon. Scum can coast and chip in and still win. Town can't.

I'm happy with this lim.

[Deltabreedy]

Alianna I hope you have some spare tin hats, this should be good.

[Deltabreedy]

Why's that, Skitter?

[Deltabreedy]

Hypothetically, losing a Townie is less of a blow to us than losing a mafioso is to them, but being unhelpful at the nth hour with your life in the balance?

Idk, I don't see that as coming from town unless they've given up. It's a WIFOM hole and I'm almost toppling in I know but my word, if it were me and I was at E-1 with the hammer incoming, it'd be realists, ISOs and parting thoughts at least, if not a full throated defence.

God maybe it is playstyle but I don't follow how a Town-aligned player could just acquiesce to being limmed.

Ninja'd: So clarify please Alianna - do you think I'm scum? Weird throwaway comment if not.

[Deltabreedy]

So after that NK I am pretty confident that it was a deliberate ploy to deflect suspicion my way after Alianna said in #776

If you leave me alive tonight...

in response to a post of mine. It looks reasonably incriminating when I look at it from an objective viewpoint.

With that, I plan on doing an ISO of Kawaii and Alianna over the next few hours to go through and reference arguments they made and see if there is any interactions that now with hindsight offer finer information to inform my limpool.

At present, I'm working from two assumptions:

1) That no scum was present on the Mallow wagon.
2) That Black is town (I'm cautious on this).

That leaves me with a D2 limpool of Skitter, Mallow & CSF.

Mallow ended yesterday expressing doubts about the townhood of both CSF and Skitter in #634 and #726, and has started today with a look at CSF. With that being said, I'd argue that the odds are good of one of those being scum, which by PoE following the above principles paints Mallow as scum.

I find it interesting that the day starts with them saying they're okay with a vote on CSF, but not backing that up with a vote.

Concerns I have about this include how trustworthy I find Black and whether my townread on Arko is misplaced, but the process I've gone through with this outweighs those concerns for now.

VOTE: Mallowgeno

[Deltabreedy]

@Mallow:

Can you link me specifically to which posts it is of CSF's that you think add nothing and give me a little more detail? In addition to that, if you're okay with a vote on them and offering no other reads within D2, why are you not backing that up with a vote?

[Deltabreedy]

I know I'm town. Mala is unCC'd. I have a read on Black and Arko that says town to me in my gut. From there the assumption has to be that scum was present in full on the Kawaii wagon. The only alive players not mentioned in that stack were Skitter, CSF & Mallow themselves.

@Mallow: I find it interesting that in ISO you mentioned Mallow a several times but mostly it seems like you lean null on them. What is your actual stance on Mallow, because you were really non-committal yesterday until it came to the point at which Mallow claimed. You also really went at me without committing to a vote until today which I find odd and opportunistic.

Following Skitter's posts I think they could be Mallow's partner since throughout the whole game they've worked reasonably hard to keep distance from them whilst keeping them away from being limmed.

Ninja'd: I'm fairly confident now that Skitter made the push on me late yesterday in order to follow through with a case today out of nowhere. So far all they have is my tunnelling (which frankly, I think I did a pretty good job of getting myself out of tunnelling on Black), and me working to ensure one of my scumreads was limmed. They're pursuing this pretty hard and I think Alianna's comment yesterday was a very welcome and convenient way to paint suspicion.

Ninja'd by Black: I townread Arko. I don't see scum putting that much effort into a wall, as impenetrable as it was. When backed up by Mala's claim and night action I think it's odds-on that Arko is town-aligned.

Ninja'd: Getting this post out then responding

[Deltabreedy]

@Black: #808 doesn't make sense.

The second sentence says:

I really only think Arko is scum here if Delta flips scum

- if that's the case then why would you be more willing to take Arko out than me? Would logic not suggest that you pursue me in that scenario?

I think including Skitter and Mallow in particular in your limpool is a good play.

Ninja'd:

I'm not seeing what the craic is with Skitters... Setupread?

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Like why are they more likely to frame you with the nk than kill the pr, that doesn't make sense

I think you and Mallow are in a better position to answer this than I am.

[Deltabreedy]

@Black: #808 doesn't make sense.

The second sentence says:

I really only think Arko is scum here if Delta flips scum

- if that's the case then why would you be more willing to take Arko out than me? Would logic not suggest that you pursue me in that scenario?

I think including Skitter and Mallow in particular in your limpool is a good play.

Ninja'd:

I'm not seeing what the craic is with Skitters... Setupread?

I said I would be more willing to take Arko out of my lim pool. So yeah I would still be pursuing you

Ahhhh that makes sense - by take out I was pretty confused because I was like 'that means lim, right?'

Cheers for the clarification.

[Deltabreedy]

A push on me would be misguided, and would be better directed at Skitter/Mallow, Black.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*
No, i made the push on you cuz ur scummy

You came into the day with a narrative explaining the nk
Ime that's extraordinarily more likely to come from scum than town

Like why are they more likely to frame you with the nk than kill the pr, that doesn't make sense

To go onto this more fully: framing it as a narrative implies fabrication. I'm confident that it's an accurate depiction of what transpired, and that you're now needing that to be disproven to fit what you wanted to accomplish. If you found what I did yesterday really scummy, why didn't you vote for me?

A quick ISO shows that after you voted, you purely invited votes and didn't do anything to try and convince people which I think stems from the long long list of posts you made that never actually mentioned an explicit reason you were voting for Kawaii. Even your vote to take Kawaii to E-2 didn't include a reason, it actually just included a comment that you thought I was scummy and a vague attempt to discredit Arko's case.

Frankly, apart from the fact that you voted, you seem to have barely mentioned a reason why to lim Kawaii. That's quirky.

Ninja'd by everyone. Responding in a sec

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Like why are they more likely to frame you with the nk than kill the pr, that doesn't make sense

I think you and Mallow are in a better position to answer this than I am.

You're the one who made the accusation, you need to back it.

It's absurd to me that scum would kill alianna so as to frame you, esp. given the pr claim

Weird, earlier it was a narrative now it's an accusation. Someone's defensive.

[Deltabreedy]

It's Skitter/Mallow.

VOTE: Skitter

[Deltabreedy]

Skitter's play today is WILDLY different to yesterday - they're starting to fabricate a case on me where yesterday they limmed someone with the absolute bare minimum of justification. They took the opportunity to start this case off real late yesterday with some vague assertions about vibes, then accusations of opportunism (where I was voting between two scumreads). They made a concerted effort to derail the Mallow wagon and they're referring to what I've said first as a narrative, now as an accusation. They need to discredit this narrative in order to continue to pursue the case they started planting seeds for yesterday.

Ninja'd: And yeah, I kind of get the vibe that Skitter is quite openly rolefishing in order to clarify the mafia's N2 actions.

[Deltabreedy]

@Black: What are your thoughts on Skitter's play today compared to yesterday?

[Deltabreedy]

If you're okay with a vote on them, why wouldn't you put that vote on yourself?

You're either okay with a vote on them or you aren't.

[Deltabreedy]

My position today is pretty clear and backed up with votes, everyone knows where I stand. From my POV: you're inviting votes onto someone and not wanting to commit until the wagon has a bit of buy-in.

[Deltabreedy]

What timezone are you in? I've noticed that a lot of people on this seem to be US-based, so Thursday morning for me might be Wednesday sleepy-go-bye-bye time for everyone else.

@Mallow: My bad, I meant that to be @Skitter.

[Deltabreedy]

On a note: I'll be at an interview across the country on Thursday, and with trainstrikes on I'll instead be on a 7-hour coach.

V/LA Thursday Daytime GMT+0

@Mallow: I explained concisely why in my first post of D2. I can type out the answers, but it's down to you to read them.

@Black: I think that a vote is the single most powerful tool I have as a townie, so I'll put it where I think it's most valuable. The only way it holds no power for town is when it's not used. Voting clearly and with intention also allows for things like vote-count analysis and gives a crystal-clear indicator of where your thoughts are at.

All we know is that Mallow would join a wagon on CSF. We also know that they're unwilling to start one. Draw your own conclusions from that, but for me that's damn near always scum-sided than town-sided.

Ninja'd by everyone, will respond in a subsequent post.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Like why are they more likely to frame you with the nk than kill the pr, that doesn't make sense

I think you and Mallow are in a better position to answer this than I am.

You're the one who made the accusation, you need to back it.

It's absurd to me that scum would kill alianna so as to frame you, esp. given the pr claim

Weird, earlier it was a narrative now it's an accusation. Someone's defensive.

I'm accusing of setting up the nk to enter the day with this narrative, yes
What ate you trying to say here

That's weird, because I could have sworn you said I'm the one who made the accusation.

--

Anyway, my view of the mafia's night action fits the events. Alianna had that throwaway line about being left alive that I found pretty weird, Skitter setting up a push on me (something she even said herself in #738) and then the NK would work very well for Scum!Skitter to manufacture a mislim. Frankly, if I hadn't called it out, I have every confidence that Skitter would have gone ahead and used this to try and lean on me as well.

In addition, Mallow's post about it being 'pretty standard' for me tunnel someone into oblivious is a fairly obvious attempt to discredit the argument, when the fact of the matter is that I didn't tunnel to oblivion earlier today. By phrasing it as a townread they distance themselves from the Skitter case, whilst simultaneously saying to everyone

'There's not much point listening to them (Delta)'.

---

@Arko, @Mala, @Black: I think it'd be worth having a look at Skitter's reasons for voting Kawaii (if you can find them). I had a look, did a Control+F for Kawaii and found barely-existent reasoning (honestly, they pushed me more at the end of D1, but still rode the Kawaii wagon - why was that?)

Ninja'd by everyone, response to follow but first
@Mallow - sorry if my response was a bit sh***y, my bad. I thought it was a corker of a line to show that you weren't actually reading my posts, but when I look at it again I was just being a muppet, apologies!

[Deltabreedy]

Hey just checking in from work

I'm kind of wary of skitter pushing delta at eod yesterday but staying on the same wagon as him

Mallow kind of a poe read at this point, but i wanted to take another look at delta and black tonight

Look at Skitter's ISO and tell me if you can see where they said they found Kawaii scummy, and specifically why it was more so than me. £5 if you find it

[Deltabreedy]

'Letting things simmer for a while' before voting suggests that Mallow wants to follow someone and read the room tactically.

It's Skitter/Mallow and frankly, it's going to take something bloody monumental to change my mind on this. She's working too hard to try and put a case on me and her partner is working to discredit my argument quietly. I hope it isn't working.

Someone who isn't them, challenge my argument and pick holes in it please but everything just

fits

.

[Deltabreedy]

*she
And, again, i discussed it repeatedly ....

Quote it then, prove me wrong!

[Deltabreedy]

I've looked several times and there isn't a case on Kawaii from you. If you think I'm mistaken, quote me and prove that I'm wrong.

I can't quote what doesn't exist.

[Deltabreedy]

There's a variety of vague assertions from Skitter mentioning Kawaii, but look at the whole of D1 with Kawaii in your Control+F, then look again from post #712 onwards.

Invitations to vote Kawaii but no justification
Whole-hearted defence of Mallow with no justification
Fairly invasive push on me, but without the weight of a vote behind it.

[Deltabreedy]

As a reminder, this push on me in D1 includes in #738 a literal sign of their intention today:

And this is setting up tomorrow's push for you if today's flip is town

.

[Deltabreedy]

*snip*

Tbh i find the fact that you're so out of it somewhat scummy

*snip*
I'm a little weirded out by kawaii joining me here and amplifyibg the push tho

*snip*
i mean it's more that kawaii was posting like that for a protracted period of time ...

*snip*
Yeah this is what's bothering me abt them rn

All of this + the fact that he felt v different from last game

If you had an issue with how i presented my sr you could have brought it up yesterday

So I've shortened this to exactly what you said about the interactions, and it's 4 sentences, only one of which says scummy.

Little weirded out...
Bothering me about them...

I mean, there's nothing here. There's absolutely nothing that's a commitment to a scumread beyond #268 and even then it's only

'somewhat scummy'

.

--

@Skitter, you literally built more of a case on me D1, why did you ride the Kawaii wagon to completion while you were pushing heavy on me?

[Deltabreedy]

From talking to people, I understand that people do use meta often here on this site. Fair enough.

Awfully convenient to fall back on it when you barely put together an argument for a lim though. It's lazy to scumread someone, but then just rely on meta to run a lim on someone else because your main scumread wasn't 'viable'.

[Deltabreedy]

Do you see how a Skitter/Mallow team works? Skitter on at least three occasions were very vocal about warning against a Mallow lim.

[Deltabreedy]

I think Mallow is objectively scummy in ISO, I just happen to have evolved my read over the course of D2 so far to scumread Skitter higher, and tie them together with looking at the ISO's of them both individually & together.

I could get behind either, at present time though I would have preference for a Skitter lim.

[Deltabreedy]

In hindsight that is a wildly concerning post.

[Deltabreedy]

It pokes a big ol' hole in it.

[Deltabreedy]

Uh Human wasn't limmed - Human's slot is now Malakitten's

[Deltabreedy]

Apologies - prod-dodge post with like the last 2% of my battery.

Got the job today though so that's a positive!

5 pages to catch up on, will do this either when I am back home or tomorrow morning.

[Deltabreedy]

I've read and re-read the last few pages and I'm starting to have some small doubts in a Skitter/Mallow team because of just how closely their opinions are matching up. Call me daft but I just don't see a scumteam aligning so closely and both trying to call out the same reads.

On the assumption that it's Skitter/Mallow, it'd be sub-optimal to both (assuming the same alignment) push on CSF/Myself since a mislim would then effectively confirm a lim on one of them and bring the odds down for them winning. I've been reading the last few pages and I'm getting myself in a real muddle because I heavily scumread both Skitter and Mallow but then when I look at it in terms of how a scumteam would play optimally, it'd be a hell of a gambit to proactively sheep each other?

That said, when you look at them both in ISO, it's taken forever and a day for Mallow to respond to Black's questions and engage with the broad array of Skitter scumreads, I think everyone is aware of my thoughts on Skitter - I've already outlined a case on Skitter since day start which honestly hasn't changed after a re-read of the last few pages. I still scumread Mallow from D1 and the failure to pass comment on Skitter until pressured heavily and directly I'm open to critique on it but I am fairly sure that I'm on scum with this.

I also don't really like Mallow's super casual vote on CSF - there's barely been a case built for it and the 'for now' feels really non-committal. I get the sense that it's more 'look at me doing something' as opposed to 'I think this player is scum'.

[Deltabreedy]

UNVOTE: Skitter
VOTE: Mallowgeno

E-1. This is today's lim.

[Deltabreedy]

Can you summarise for me why you think it's Arko over Skitter?

[Deltabreedy]

Also I'm pretty confident Skitter is scum - the reaction to the flip in #1251 is purely to bait out a 2nd PR.

[Deltabreedy]

Why do you want someone to claim

[Deltabreedy]

Take the assumption that I'm town Skitter - just for a minute.

What should my lim pool be and why?

[Deltabreedy]

@Black, what are your thoughts on Scum!Skitter?

[Deltabreedy]

Csf and black

{In fact that's probably just the solve if you're town}

Where did this solve come from? Why are you suddenly more sus of Black over me than yesterday?

Yesterday you were utterly convinced that I'm scum, now CSF and Black is 'Probably the solve'? Make this make sense to me please

Ninja'd: Because a claim allows scum to come up with the optimal position for a counter-claim and force a 50/50. I think my odds right now of hitting scum are greater than that from gut and a variety of reasons I covered off on yesterday and I think a claim would muddy the waters on that.

[Deltabreedy]

Can we get a clear readslist from everyone, as concise as possible?

Scum

Skitter
CSF/Arko
Black
Me

Town

[Deltabreedy]

I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between what you said Skitter and how I read it but yeah I still scumread you.

Reads?

Ninja'd: I'm not completely sold on CSF, let me have a look at them both in ISO.

Preferentially I'd have Skitter go today.

[Deltabreedy]

It's been a few hours and we're in lim-or-lose. I think we all need something big from you here

[Deltabreedy]

@CSF could you link the Arko argument you referred to in response to Black's post?

[Deltabreedy]

I feel like there's a bit of a disconnect between what you said Skitter and how I read it but yeah I still scumread you.

Reads?

Ninja'd: I'm not completely sold on CSF, let me have a look at them both in ISO.

Preferentially I'd have Skitter go today.

Ok, can you elaborate on the disconnect please?

(Also why didnt you respond with that to my response?)

@delta ngl i kinda feel like you're setting up leading arguments that are not in good faith and then not responding to my response, but just leaving the accusation in the ether, you dis this a bunch of times yesterday also

@delta are you ignoring me on purpose or ...

I mean the response is there? I misread what you wrote and that's fairly obvious from my response.

I mean it'd be great if you could quote those arguments rather than just cast some vague assertions but cool

[Deltabreedy]

Still waiting on that readslist Skitter

I mean if you want to just admit you're mafia that works too.

Why do I get the sense that Skitter is hunting in order to setup a counter-claim and then run the odds on a mislim

[Deltabreedy]

Not to the extent you are

And nah I dont think I will. Mostly because it's immaterial, partially because I forgot, and additionally because you're part of the Mafia.

[Deltabreedy]

How confident are you in your CSF read?

[Deltabreedy]

I mean I can make something up if that'll placate you? I forgot, and to me the opinion of a mafioso is immaterial.

Ninja'd:

I'm too solid in my read. None of what you post seems aimed at getting CSF limmed when they're apparently your top scumread. I can't take anything you say seriously given the scumread I've had over the last 2 days and it's going to take something pretty mega to change my mind.

[Deltabreedy]

Right so 3 people of the 5 remaining think claiming is the way (nevermind that they're the top 3 people I think are scum) so here it is:

I am a

Friendly Neighbour

N1 I visited

Malakittens

Obviously, they passed in N2, so here's a couple of posts that illustrate the impact of my visit: #748, before my N1 Visit, reading me as scum | #805 after N1, 're-reading' me and seeing town, #903 'Delta comes out as more town right now' and #921 'No'.

N2 I visited

Black

Open floor, Skitter. I was originally planning on voting you in this post but here we go: make 1 post, your whole case on CSF and I hand on heart will read it as objectively as possible. If it has merit, it might swing me. If not, I'm taking you off the board today.

[Deltabreedy]

On re-reading, I think looking back I mistook the 'This is probably the solve' bit as a statement to placate me that came from outside the confines of the 'assume I am town' statement, which really threw me.

[Deltabreedy]

That said, I've done my part. Convince me it's CSF, really convince me and I'll vote along with you and I think Black also wants to remove CSF from the board today as well. After that it's down to town to see what happens tomorrow.

Working through the possibilities of scumpartners in order of likelihood for me:

Skitter/CSF
CSF/Arko
Skitter/Arko
Black/the others

I could do a CSF lim, but I have preference as it stands for Skitter.

@Black, can you also give me a summary of your reasoning behind a CSF lim?

Arko - yeah nah we need more.

Ninja'd: Can you manage my expectations on this, when will you be able to pop your CSF reasoning over?

[Deltabreedy]

For context if I have this wildly wrong and Black is scum, I'll eat my shoe.

[Deltabreedy]

Will you actually read it and consider what i'm going to say?

Like i don't see much of a point of putting effort in otherwise

I've committed to this yeah.

[Deltabreedy]

@Black, can you also give me a summary of your reasoning behind a CSF lim?

It really just boils down to me thinking CSF is objectively more scummy than skitter, but at this point and after the last few pages I'm really thinking it's both of them

We need to figure out who is more guaranteed to be scum here. I don't think CSF/Arko works as well as a pair as skitter/Arko so maybe skitter is the safer play? She's in my top two possible scum teams so it feels like we have a higher chance to hit scum if we go this route

@Delta how possible do you think skitter/Arko is?

Struggling with Arko, the biggest source of my distrust of them comes from inactivity, which I simply can't bear. I don't see Town!Arko after the walls and the activity just dropping off like this, but then it's so easily scummy that I fear it's an easy potential mislim for a CSF/Skitter team.

[Deltabreedy]

At best the lack of activity is from an active lurking scum, at worst it's from a town-aligned player who doesn't care and is phoning in a performance rather than requesting replacement.

[Deltabreedy]

I think I want to be a person of my word and allow Skitter the chance to post their argument on CSF at least - I'd be a bit of a n** if I was to go back on that under 60 minutes from committing to an objective review of their case on CSF and in that scenario I may well lean more towards CSF - it depends on that.

I'm concerned about Arko, and I think it's going to be tough if either of us get left with a choice between CSF & Arko, because the latter hasn't posted much in the last 2 game days at all - that'll complicate things.

[Deltabreedy]

The reaction to my claim being to 'remove me from the lim pool' suggests that they were wrong so I'd like to know who and what they thought it was.

[Deltabreedy]

Okay, that makes sense. I thought the interaction between you and Black yesterday gave off strong vibes of FN given they did a 180 on their read of me. I'm reading that from a privileged viewpoint of knowing who I popped the action over to so I can't really get objective on that.

[Deltabreedy]

Given that I was in your lim pool, the implication is that you didn't think I was the PR, hence me wanting to know who and what you thought it was, as a response to #1371

[Deltabreedy]

After that through associative I can kinda see Skitter/Arko I think.

I'll commit to a full ISO after I've seen Skitter's argument on CSF

[Deltabreedy]

Well you were saying Arko was town all the way through yesterday and saying things like 'I think they're town but flaking'.

The reveal that you thought they flaked and that they were a Doc is ignorant of Mallow's N1 track - for the theory to stand up, then they also needed to not take any actions N1 as well. For them to not act N1 or N2 as a Doc would be highly unlikely, and remember Arko's D1 was significantly more activity-rich than D2. #803 crumbs this viewpoint, which is something that I find uncomfortable.

[Deltabreedy]

Arko is incredibly lurky at a critical point of the game, not something that I would say is indicative of town-aligned intention. Let's not forget as well that there is a rolecop in this setup, and that Skitter has been pretty vocal about PRs throughout the game. Who else was vocal about claims D1?

Arko, when Mala's slot (Formerly Human) was pressured into claiming Tracker. #478 comes off as incredibly strong and demanding a claim, and I think Skitter manufactured a bit of distancing here through their #489 - at the time it felt natural but in retrospect it does look like a distancing exercise post-claim.

Ninja'd: Black's question is very important.

[Deltabreedy]

I get the sense that your viewpoint rests entirely on the theory that Doc!Arko took no actions N1 or N2, something which just feels super sketch. You aren't new, there's no setup-confusion or lack of understanding on how actions are taken and how they resolve - I don't see Town!Skitter making that assertion, I only really see Scum!Skitter slipping up here.

I think you've messed up. I'm very much more confident in a Skitter/Arko pairing now than I was in any other combination through the associatives.

[Deltabreedy]

I think you slipped. Scum make mistakes sometimes because you're trying to keep track of lies.

[Deltabreedy]

5 years of mafia experience, don't try to put previous meta in our faces and say it proves townhood. That's scummy in and of itself.

From #1414 the impression that they were town was mild, and the expectation that you have is for us to believe that you forgot some of the most important posts in the game, and decided that they were the other PR what, arbitrarily?

The invitation to WIFOM in #1400 and #1401 I hate as well.

I know I said I was going to give them time, but I'm sold. They've been the most active poster since asking us to wait for their CSF solve until 'after work', I'm itching to put a vote down and I'm struggling to think of a good reason not to push a lim on Skitter right here and now.

Not hearing any big arguments against this from anyone, which I think supports my read on this.

[Deltabreedy]

Okay then

VOTE: Skitter

[Deltabreedy]

If you're town and you're giving up, then gg I suppose.

If scum then that's a fairly desperate last plea. Let's find out

[Deltabreedy]

I committed to having an open mind and I committed to waiting until you 'finished work' but you've posted almost 40 times since then, and not just simple little one-liners. I'm now solid in my scumread, and if I'm wrong you can say 'I told you so' and educate me in post.

[Deltabreedy]

I committed to hearing your argument and I was expecting the game to maybe a chill a bit whilst you worked and composed a post. You have literally been more active than at any other time in the game since then, but not a single word about CSF.

I'd honestly be less convinced than I am now had you been relatively quiet for 8-10 hours and then come back at us with a case, but since then you've slipped on Doc!Arko, waved some meta in our faces which proves absolutely nothing because I think as a player of 5 years minimum you're likely experienced enough to play against your own meta, and you've not picked apart any arguments against you.

If you flip town, my bad. If not then hurray lets win in D4.

[Deltabreedy]

Town wouldn't give up here.

[Deltabreedy]

I'm not passing comment on your career or anything at all, and that's a really reductive argument to try and counter what I'm saying? I am passing comment on the fact in the intervening time period, you've posted 30 times and that in those posts you've slipped on Doc!Arko, Tried to push meta on us all and then dropped some WIFOM bombs on scum motivations.

When I said I'd give the time, I meant it. You've had 3 separate slips since then which have indicated to me that you're absolutely aligned with the mafia, so I see no reason to allow you to induce uncertainty into D4. Had you not slipped or said scummy things, I wouldn't call it out, but please don't try to mischaracterise this statement as an attack on anything other than your scum-motivated gameplay.

[Deltabreedy]

God damn it black

[Deltabreedy]

Yeah

[Deltabreedy]

Well played.

Lesson learned - trust my gut D1.

[Deltabreedy]

Mistakes were made. I made a fair few, but there we go.

Ninja'd: Black I was so convinced that I literally had to delete you from the game in my mind to get you out and that never really left me.

Even if we had limmed CSF D3, you would have left me alive and I'd likely have pretty blindly gone for whoever the other person was over you.

[Deltabreedy]

I think big thing is straight up after this game, there's no hard feelings from me towards or at anyone in the game.

Ninja'd: I was open to hearing you out but then there was 3 things that ping scum to me in I think as many hours, so I bit the bullet and went with my gut. It was wrong but there we go.

[Deltabreedy]

Well I townread Black super heavily, so in a choice between Arko or Skitter and Black, who I've townread since I revaluated my read D1 it was always going to be an easy lim from there. Like I say, mistakes were made but that's what the newbie queue is for.

Killing Arko probably would have been optimal tbh

[Deltabreedy]

Eh, it's probably me adapting to how mafia works here, but metasharing whilst not neccessarily being scummy, is absolutely not townie either. It's NAI at best from the experience that I have, and there was too many inconsistencies for me to let it happen.

Benefit of hindsight, I messed up a long long time before the end of even D2, but like I say that's the newbie queue for you.

[Deltabreedy]

I am instituting a personal policy of tunnelling Black D1 from now on.

[Deltabreedy]

Well I was talking to you but like I say I felt more confident in my read after your 300th post than I did after you committed to posting the solve at your 270th, none of what you posted in the intermediary was productive other than to defend yourself. I expressed this a few times, it went uncountered, I bit the bullet and committed.

[Deltabreedy]

I care but I think it's a discussion for a few hours from now.

[Deltabreedy]

Echoing the above.

@#1469 I think the case was as valid as it could be for 150 posts into the game haha. It was arguments from others, not yourself that led to me re-evaluating and I just let it sway my head too far. I'm so much more comfortable with vocal mafia.

[Deltabreedy]

I'll take that onboard. I thought I was responding to everything and when you pressured me on it I did make sure I got back to you on it, but evidently I missed some. The reason I reneged on the agreement I doubt we'll agree on. You did things that I found to be scum-motivated in isolation that pushed the ticker further over and made me renege on it. After you 'gave up' was the moment I said sure. The doc slip made sense to me, it fit with the gut read of you/arko that I had and in the moment I saw it as scum flailing more than town forgetting.

I think Arko not being around really tipped this game for me to be honest - I think dipping and not requesting replacement for me if there's no interest is kinda eh. GG everyone though

[Deltabreedy]

I'd be keen queueing another and redeeming what I think overall was a pretty poor shift from me. I think in hindsight I probably phoned it in a bit in D2 and wasn't anywhere near my best, but I guess I'm still acclimating to long mafia.

My usual games are 30-60 minutes, with voices. This is fairly different.

[Deltabreedy]

I don't know why the aspersion is going around that I'd have been too stubborn is coming from. I literally came off a D1 scumread because people said I was tunnelling too hard. I invited critique of my points at several stages and until I saw things which I thought were just too much confirmation, I was giving my numero uno, 99% scumread a chance to plead their case.

[Deltabreedy]

Hey Human, honestly no need to apologise. It's a hard game and you're in the Newbie queue, this is where you have the space and time to make mistakes, to learn your craft and most of all - enjoy the game whilst learning and growing as a player.

I hope to see you in a game again soon!