Newbie 2116 - Booza (Game Over)

[Black]

Can we please not hammer this until I at least get an answer from mallow regarding 931?

[Black]

EBWOP: #981

[Black]

My school didn't even make the tournament and we started the season ranked #1

Pain

[Black]

Anyways, The votes on skitter make me pretty sure it's a town push... but is it a correct one?

Why does this feel like you know something we don't?

You really didn't get anything out of the 5 pages of me/skitter/mala?

[Black]

Even though mala is pretty much conftown I don't think she was being very clear with her thought process over those pages. I'm not sure where you're getting the hostile part from but I just wanted her to be more transparent with her progressions

[Black]

I don't have much to say re: your 1124. It's difficult for me to take a hard stance on Delta/skitter when I'm still trying to sort both slots. I do think Delta came out of it a little more townie fwiw

[Black]

I mean that you were both townreading her for the claim but were questioning her as if you were trying to solve for her alignment. Felt like there's a disconnect there

I'm having a hard time believing you really got that vibe from all that. Mala has been all over the place with her reads and scum pairs and I felt like I needed to address that to really figure out where she stands. I wasn't trying to solve for her alignment... I wanted to understand her opinions on the alignments of others. I felt like that was pretty clear but maybe not

[Black]

Consider my vote on skitter but I don't want to hammer until mallow says something about skitter because I think that's still a very viable team

I appreciate this btw

[Black]

Or do you mean only recently did her reads start getting hard to follow?

Since D2 started I feel like she has had some unexplained progressions. She completely flip flopped on Delta, told skitter she wouldn't even look at Delta if skitter flipped town, paired me with skitter and then me with mallow and accused me of distancing them both, started to TR you which I don't think she ever explained, and then tried to say I was bussing mallow while asking me to move my vote away from him. Maybe there was a disconnect here but it was more me not understanding her position than anything I think

[Black]

I still really dislike these posts. I forgot Skitter had made these but they don't make sense to me

What about them didn't make sense? I think since you are such a rare poster you should try to explain how you reached these conclusions before you disappear again

[Black]

I am still reading through

Idk why I was expecting more from you. At this point you're just giving us one thought a day and barely elaborating on it. We need something to work with here. Maybe next time you come in you can list the players off and tell us what you think about each one?

[Black]

VOTE: mallow

Idk why but skitty is pawing at the heartstrings

This is what I'd rather do but can you explain your skitter feelings?

[Black]

I think it's Skitter's tone that's making me think she might be town here. The frustration seems genuine but if it really is mallow/skitter then the fact that both of them are linked and on the chopping block could also be the cause of the frustration

[Black]

Reminder that I'm not here much on weekends! After work today I'll be busy for most of it

[Black]

Arko and Delta really dropped off huh

[Black]

I feel p confident there's scum in delta and csf

Thoughts on a possible mallow/CSF team?

[Black]

One thing I will say is Skitter has been posting throughout this dead time, I think that's something scum may just avoid doing since they don't really need to add much

if they aren't being pushed

Skitter has been pushed throughout this "dead time" though. Did you not see that when you were reading?

Also re: motivation...I understand that. I hope you realize I keep invoking you because I have a hard time sorting slots that play like this unless they contribute more. I'm not trying to be mean or anything

[Black]

Also mallow I think a reads list would be really helpful. Just one to two sentences about every player if that's something you think you can do

[Black]

You suppose? That's what you just said right...that scum would only post here if they are being pushed? So why would skitter posting yesterday make her seem town?

[Black]

I meant yesterday irl, still, skitter has been getting pushed for basically the entirety of D2. So I just find it weird that your first sentence of that post felt like you were trying to imply she might be town even though she's doing exactly what you assume scum would do here

So who do you think is scum? Would love a reads list from you

[Black]

Why does it feel like you are a) avoiding scumreading skitter and b) sheeping her opinions?

Yesterday irl you had some issues with Skitter's posts, saying they don't make sense and that you didn't like them. Today you imply that you TR her posting through dead time even though you said scum would do exactly what she's doing

Skitter also thinks it's CSF and Delta so that doesn't feel like an original thought from you

[Black]

Can you elaborate on that mallow? What has skitter done specifically that makes you think she is hunting that CSF and Delta haven't done?

[Black]

Re: 1187 - I understand what you are saying but your own words imply that you don't think skitter is scum because she has been posting through the dead phase, but then in your next sentence you say scum would post through the dead phase if they are being pushed. Skitter has been pushed through this phase so I'm not understanding why you view her posting during this phase as unlikely to come from scum

[Black]

You didn't let me get away with not giving my thoughts on Skitter which I think is good.

I can't help but read this as you we're trying to get away from giving your thoughts on skitter. But maybe I'm just viewing everything you say with a red tint

[Black]

Maybe that makes me seem like I'm paired with Skitter? I don't really care if I'm seen as a partner to Skitter because I know I'm not scum so that doesn't really matter.

If you are town then it should matter. We are trying to figure out who the 2 wolves are and if you really are town then you should be concerned with making it as easy to read you as possible

[Black]

I think the biggest thing is that she's been trying to push us through this, I don't know other than that I would need to look back. Maybe it's just my gut.

So you can't even think of examples of skitter hunting but you TR her for it?

[Black]

Is anyone else other than skitter finding this all pretty scummy or is it just me?

[Black]

Actually with that clarification i don'r really find this scummy anymore

Can you explain this read?

[Black]

IMO this all seems pretty scummy and I'm not sure how his clarification changes any of that

-mallow says he SRs you D1 but joins the consensus and votes for Kawaii
-mallow starts D2 saying he looked at CSF overnight and he doesn't like her posts
-After 4 attempts mallow finally shares his thoughts on you. He says I did a good job not letting him get away with this
-He says he doesn't like your posts at first but then his reason for you probably being town is that you posted during a "dead phase" and he thinks only scum would do that if they are under pressure
-He says that he has read the whole game and admits that you were posting under pressure but doesn't seem to think you could be scum doing this?
-He says you seem to be hunting wolves more than CSF/Delta but can't think of any examples and attributes this thought to you pushing us through the "dead phase" in which you did no hunting at all, you just defended yourself against mala
-You initially SR this but then switch up and say mallow probably won't flip scum based on a clarification that I'm not seeing as town indicative. I'm willing to hear why this clarification changed your mind because I'm not following your progression

It just seems to me that you two are riding the fence on each other. You both have expressed scumreads on each other but then walked them back with weak evidence that I'm just not seeing

Do you see how this really makes it seem like you two are scum together from my POV?

[Black]

Originally i thought he was saying he thought the wayi was playing was townie, which didnt make sense to me - now that he's explained that he wasnt talking abt me, it makes more sense

He was pretty clearly using 1172 as a reason for thinking you are town. Yes he also used this to sus Delta but I don't think there's any question that the first sentence in this post is to explain why scum!skitter doesn't make sense here

[Black]

Mallow then uses 1186 to say he doesn't get scum vibes from you because you've been wolf hunting. When I asked him to provide examples he couldn't...he just said you pushing us through the dead phase came to mind

What even is this dead phase thing? It was just one day (yesterday irl) where not many people were posting. Why is mallow TRing you for wolf hunting but not able to recall any wolf hunting?

[Black]

I'm ok with mallow or skitter so I will keep sheeping mala until one of them dies

VOTE: mallow

[Black]

I'm starting to feel wary about Arko. He hasn't had a game advancing post in 4 days ever since mala revealed her tracking result on him. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt...he says he is enjoying other stuff and hasn't felt motivated, but it doesn't sit right with me that he stopped solving once he felt like he was cleared by mala

[Black]

I won't be around much until tomorrow so I want to give some thoughts in case someone hammers

If mallow flips wolf then I think we can just flip skitter and win the game. There are some other mallow associations like mallow/Delta and mallow/CSF but imo none of them are as strong as mallow/skitter. There's also the possibility of Arko here but again I'm hesitant to go there with the tracker result

If mallow flips town then I'll have to reassess. A lot of why skitter is scummy to me is association with mallow but I'd have to dig deeper to see if there are other scummy associations here. I remember not really feeling Arko's skitter/CSF case but I guess it's possible. I think CSF/Arko is what I want to look more at tomorrow when I have time because I can't rule that out

I think it's weird that Arko and Delta both disappeared at the same time but idk what to make of it

We probably get another result from mala as long as the wolves are afraid of the doc. I would expect another top TR to die

I think that's all my thoughts for now

[Black]

@skitter, that's understandable. I tunneled on mallow and you being a scum pair and I was wrong

We agree on CSF at least. I think she's the most likely wolf here

I admit I'm less sus of you skitter after Mallow's flip but I also don't think it's Delta here. In fact I think Arko had a much worse D2 than Delta

I think CSF/Arko is the most likely pair here with CSF/skitter and Arko/skitter as the only other possible options to me

I want to dive into these possibilities more when I get the chance later. One wrong vote and we just lose so I think we should take our time

[Black]

I think Delta is the towniest person left and if I remove him from the picture then the scum pool becomes much more clear

There are two wolves in {CSF; skitter; Arko} and we just have to make sure we don't lim the wrong one and we win

Since mallow flipped town I'm pretty confident we win by limming CSF and Arko but I need to reread the thread to make sure we don't fumble this

[Black]

Can you summarise for me why you think it's Arko over Skitter?

Arko has been coasting since mala tracked him and I don't think skitter has been all that scummy outside of her connections with mallow. But I'm getting the PR hunting vibes that you're seeing and that's making me second guess myself now

I remember thinking some skitter/CSF interactions didn't feel like svs after they were cased by Arko but I want to go back and see if they feel forced or faked

Skitter/Arko is a possibility too. Arko cased skitter what feels like decades ago but he has never voted for her and has kinda rode the fence on her this entire time. He has voted for CSF though so I'm trying to figure out if Arko is scum, would he vote for his partner (CSF) or would he sus them without voting (skitter)?

Or maybe I'm just overthinking it and Arko was right all along. CSF is my #1 SR atm so I'm not really feeling any possibility that involves her not being on the scum team

[Black]

@Black, what are your thoughts on Scum!Skitter?

Wasn't feeling this after the mallow flip but now I'm going spend some time looking over the thread to see if there's anything I missed

[Black]

What is this pr hunting thing ... it's elo, and we should be fullclaiminhlg today. Like we all should hlbe claiming now.

Both black/delta: i want you yo explain why it's scummy for to suggest this and why it isnt in town's best interest to do so ...

Wouldn't it be better to save the claim for D4? If the other PR claims now then they just die overnight. What am I missing here?

[Black]

I admit I might not know the best play here regarding the claim. In my head it just makes sense for the PR to claim if they are at risk of being limmed. If we lim wolf here and the PR survives overnight then they can just win the game by claiming in F3

[Black]

I think this is a scum solve. Arko has been pushing me a lot. Why isn't skitter scum here?

Skitter can be scum here but I feel like you're not paying attention to my progression. I didn't think skitter was scum coming into the day because I mainly SR her in a tunnel involving a skitter/mallow pair. Since day start I've admitted to myself I could be wrong about sorting her as town just because mallow flipped town

[Black]

Also CSF I don't think Arko pushing you a lot says anything here. You two are more than capable of coordinating a bus

[Black]

@black why am i scum here exactly

I didn't say you were scum, I said you could be. I don't think you are cleared as town just because mallow flipped town. I still think CSF/Arko might be more likely than you/CSF or you/Arko but I haven't even had the chance to reread because I've been live posting

[Black]

Skitter your whole mallow stance could easily come from an informed wolf so I'm not sure why you keep using that to clear yourself

[Black]

EBWOP: you say you're not using that to clear yourself but it definitely seems like it

[Black]

I am also saying that people who think i'm scum b/c i'm partners with mallow need to reasses that worldview b/c i can't be partners with mallow

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that thought this? And I did reassess, you know this

[Black]

The following quote makes it look like you're reversing that

That's a weird interpretation of the quote. I obviously don't think you're partners with mallow anymore. The only thing I'm reversing is assuming you are town because he was

[Black]

I spent some time looking over CSF/Arko and I'm not sure about this pair. If I assume they are scum together then I would have to assume Arko started to bus CSF at a point where no one was really scumreading CSF. I'm having a hard time understanding this as the optimal play for them unless it was all a setup to get us to question this team late-game like I'm doing now. In particular I don't think a lot of their interactions between 580 and 700 make a lot of sense as svs. This would have to be a highly coordinated bus for it to be reality and while I don't put that past two experienced players, I don't necessarily think they would go this route when they didn't have to

Looking at CSF/skitter and skitter/Arko next

[Black]

There isn't a lot of interactions between CSF/skitter prior to Arko's case in 588 but since then they have had many interactions where they are throwing mud at each other. CSF starts off D2 sussing skitter in 869 and throws skitter a softball in 904. They have a little back and forth between 905 and 920 that honestly gives me the feeling that they planned this D2 distancing overnight. I can definitely see this as a possibility after Arko pinned them together D1. skitter says in 931 that she's warming up to the idea of CSF being scum here. These two continue to go at it to widen the gap between them and in 972 CSF implies that she thinks skitter is scum. This bus attempt seems way more reasonable and likely than the Arko-->CSF bus.... this one feels reactive and planned from CSF/skitter after getting linked D1. This is a much more likely pairing than CSF/Arko imo

Looking at Arko/skitter next

[Black]

Arko/skitter actually has some weight to it. These two have been sussing each other all game but neither of them has voted for the other, not even once. The entire time Arko has been pushing CSF/skitter he's been saying CSF is the more scummy of the two and pushing her much harder. The random TR in 226 didn't feel good then and it doesn't feel good now while rereading. On D2 Skitter simultaneously TRs Arko while posting multiple times that she is suspicious of his lack of activity. This is fine at face value but it feels like riding the fence when looking back on it. One thing about this pair that I'm wondering about is Arko misgendering skitter around the 604 mark...does that really happen if they are scum together? I feel like Arko would be more aware of her pronouns and I'm not sure if skitter calls out her partner like that in the thread, but I could be wrong

I'm thinking this pair is less likely than CSF/Skitter but more likely than Arko/CSF

I think I want to flip CSF today

[Black]

TOWN

Delta
Arko
skitter
CSF

SCUM

[Black]

Can we get a clear readslist from everyone, as concise as possible?

Scum

Skitter
CSF/Arko
Black
Me

Town

Would you be down to vote CSF today or would you prefer to go skitter first?

[Black]

I am eagerly awaiting Arko's contributions here...

[Black]

I am eagerly awaiting Arko's contributions here...

I'm p sure he sitedflaked
I don't think the lack of activity is ai anymore

You mean dipped from the site? Yeah maybe. Pretty unfortunate because we need his opinions rn

[Black]

@Black, can you also give me a summary of your reasoning behind a CSF lim?

It really just boils down to me thinking CSF is objectively more scummy than skitter, but at this point and after the last few pages I'm really thinking it's both of them

We need to figure out who is more guaranteed to be scum here. I don't think CSF/Arko works as well as a pair as skitter/Arko so maybe skitter is the safer play? She's in my top two possible scum teams so it feels like we have a higher chance to hit scum if we go this route

@Delta how possible do you think skitter/Arko is?

[Black]

For context if I have this wildly wrong and Black is scum, I'll eat my shoe.

Put your shoe back on, we got this!

[Black]

Arko/skitter actually has some weight to it. These two have been sussing each other all game but neither of them has voted for the other, not even once. The entire time Arko has been pushing CSF/skitter he's been saying CSF is the more scummy of the two and pushing her much harder. The random TR in 226 didn't feel good then and it doesn't feel good now while rereading. On D2 Skitter simultaneously TRs Arko while posting multiple times that she is suspicious of his lack of activity. This is fine at face value but it feels like riding the fence when looking back on it. One thing about this pair that I'm wondering about is Arko misgendering skitter around the 604 mark...does that really happen if they are scum together? I feel like Arko would be more aware of her pronouns and I'm not sure if skitter calls out her partner like that in the thread, but I could be wrong

I'm thinking this pair is less likely than CSF/Skitter but more likely than Arko/CSF

I think I want to flip CSF today

I feel like you're drawing a conclusion here that only makes sense if you look at every pairing but you haven't included delta in any of your analysis

Yeah i'm still confused why she's just ignoring delta here

I thought it was pretty obvious that I got Delta's night message. Why else would I go from scumreading him to taking him out of my pool entirely? This feels like the wolf team pressuring me to spill the beans here

[Black]

That's kind of where I'm at with Arko but I really don't think he's a good lim in this situation. CSF or skitter are the only two options from my POV

If we lim CSF and she flips scum then I think it's pretty safe to lim skitter afterward. I've pretty much talked myself out of CSF/Arko being a team here and I hope that doesn't come back to bite me

If we lim skitter and she flips scum then we'll have to determine which of Arko/CSF is her teammate. CSF is the more obvious choice to me but Arko is definitely possible

[Black]

I agree...there's no point rushing this

[Black]

I'm p sure i know which pr it is, and i know who it is anyways, but eh

Optimal is to claim

What did you mean by this then?

[Black]

A skitter/Arko team is scary here. It's going to be hard for me to not want to lim CSF if skitter flips wolf

[Black]

I mean from my pov you're both trying to shoehorn me into all possible teams ...

I don't feel like I forced you into either of your possible teams. I think you fit naturally in them actually

[Black]

Why does me/arko even make sense

I have a post about this yesterday when I was rereading

[Black]

The reveal that you thought they flaked and that they were a Doc is ignorant of Mallow's N1 track - for the theory to stand up, then they also needed to not take any actions N1 as well.

I hadn't even considered this. Skitter's Arko!doc theory doesn't really make sense in this context

[Black]

And exactly, i thought they took an action n1, b/c they were around day1, and didnt n2, b/c they werent around day2

Why would you think Arko protected someone n1 if mala revealed he didn't go anywhere?

[Black]

That's exactly what you would say if you did forget it as scum though

[Black]

I think 1298 was you hinting that you thought it was Delta. When you said you had no idea it was Delta in 1367 and I questioned you on that in 1368 you had to come up with some other PR theory quick. I think it's entirely possible you slipped up here, forgot about the mala track and mentioned the Arko!doc theory

The only thing I disagree with Delta about here is that I don't necessarily think this links you to Arko, but it does strongly suggest to me that you're probably scum

[Black]

I'm saying you couldn't reveal that you thought Delta was the PR because that implicates you in the NK, so you had to push this idea that you thought Arko was doc instead. You didn't think this idea through though and slipped up. I don't think this makes Arko your partner but I think it makes you scum

[Black]

VOTE: skitter

[Black]

God damn it black

:3

[Black]

Time to eat your shoe lol

[Black]

Well played.

Lesson learned - trust my gut D1.

I just wanna say you pushed me D1 for something I do as town lol. Great gut feeling though, I did get a little nervous but I knew I could argue my way out of it since I didn't think your case was strong

[Black]

Like there's just so much that i want to say here
That i probably shouldnt

But holy *** this is one of the single-most frustrating towngames i've played in a very, very, very long time

For the record I almost broke D2 when you were questioning why everyone was jumping on you. I even talked to Cat in the PT about maybe bussing her early because it made me sad that you were so frustrated

Easily my least favorite part about being a wolf

[Black]

Black I was so convinced that I literally had to delete you from the game in my mind to get you out and that never really left me

I know. I legit LOLed when this happened ^_^

And I think I would have killed Arko tonight. Skitter would have been able to tell it was me leaving you alive and I think she might have been able to convince you of it

[Black]

Sorry, I meant I would have killed you Delta

[Black]

Gotta kill the PR to leave my options open in F3

[Black]

GG all. I got carried hard by Black ^_^

I wish you would stop saying this >:(

[Black]

I am instituting a personal policy of tunnelling Black D1 from now on.

You're gonna have to bring a stronger case than you did this game lol

[Black]

TY GuyInFreezer for modding! Very fun game!

[Black]

@#1469 I think the case was as valid as it could be for 150 posts into the game haha. It was arguments from others, not yourself that led to me re-evaluating and I just let it sway my head too far. I'm so much more comfortable with vocal mafia.

That's fair tbh. I was happy that everyone else seemed to disagree with you, that definitely helped me out of the early pickle

[Black]

Black - you've got a fantastic scumgame, would live to play with you sometime (or with town-you). You're really great at this

Thank you! You're sweet. I really like you from what I know about you and I enjoy playing with you a lot. I would love to be on the same team for once. Lmk if you sign up for a other newbie and I'll be right behind you

[Black]

I knew CSF was scum >.< Well played scum

Thanks for modding GIF

I hope you stick around

[Black]

And yeah I will echo here that Arko probably should have asked to be replaced. No game advancing content in over a week is not really fair to the town imo and I think the town would have stood a better chance if Arko had backed out

[Black]

Skitter is a she

And thank you for the compliment. I felt like you were going to be a problem for us wolves after your strong D1. Lucky for us you just kinda ghosted