Newbie 743: Game over!

[elvis_knits]

Confirm!

Me and rajrhcpfreak are your IC's. We can help if you have questions, so ask if you have any along the way. Also, I <3 raj.

I don't recognize any of the rest of you except for Luna! Good to see you again!

[elvis_knits]

I am not lying. I <3 raj.

[elvis_knits]

vote rajrhcpfreak

This is how I show my love.

[elvis_knits]

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Que ? I've probably missed something, but you rolled a two outcome die for....?

I didn't notice that until you pointed it out. Maybe he thought two people were scummy off his first impressions? If so, raj, who was the other person?

[elvis_knits]

yes you are right. i found two people equally scummy from my their fist vote, other than e_k.

so i rolled a die to see which one i should attack first. the second one will stay hidden so i can examine how he continues to act.

I don't know why you would want this information to stay hidden.

but i want to know something e_k...

you voted me. you know since i hate random voting, i usually vote for the person who votes for me.
since you are 'good' you willingly just got a townsperson to vote for you, not very helpful since in your eyes you are good.

since my action is predetermined, the question is: why do you want a vote?
are you trying to make me look suspicious, since you are the only person that knows my play style and the others are obvlious to my unconventional play style?


IGMEOY

We've played together a lot, so I do know that you always OMGUS whoever random votes you. The fact that you would inevitably vote me doesn't matter much to me. I figured I would unvote you when someone seemed scummier, and that you would unvote me. Random votes don't usually lead directly to a lynch. And I saw this more as an opportunity to explain OMGUS to newbies who had never seen it.

And why do you think I'm trying to make you look bad? I always defend you in games... and always vouch for your meta -- that you're a little bit unconventional and play by gut.

[elvis_knits]

unvote: LunaLouise
vote: Elvis_knits

for voting against your fellow IC out of the gate

Is this still random or a serious vote change ?

Huh? When did i vote random, and why wouldn't you think that is a serious vote change?

Oh you're serious. What's wrong with voting my fellow IC? And why don't you care that he also voted me?

[elvis_knits]

Why are you so sure raj is town? I voted him, but he could be either. If I vote him and he's scum, voting him is good. If I vote him and he's town, it's not even that bad since it was just a random vote. One vote does not make someone in danger of being lynched.

It seems like you're assuming raj is town.

The only players who could be sure are scum. Scum are more informed than town, and I think you are showing this extra info.

unvote raj; vote podium

[elvis_knits]

podium:

Explain to me how my vote on raj is bad if he's scum.

Explain to me how my one vote put raj in danger of being lynched.

If we follow your reasoning, nobody should be voting either IC. That would be stupid.

[elvis_knits]

Wow, isn't this WIFOM ?

I just see you trying to stretch the table to turn on itself. So elvis_knits voted for you, so you would vote back and she would be able to cry OMGUS in random voting ? Everyone knows that wouldn't have flown anyway, so why are you stretching ?

Its WIFOM after i made the statement, "since my action is predetermined, the question is: why do you want a vote?"
but that is the real question.
so that is why i had my eye on her.
and it is still on her because of her lame OMGUS excuse.

I didn't really think about the vote that much at the time, but when you asked all those serious questions I tried to put it into words. If it's lame, okay, then it's lame. But that's what I was thinking about.

---

Podium, I asked you some questions. Any answer to them?

[elvis_knits]

podium:

Explain to me how my vote on raj is bad if he's scum.

Explain to me how my one vote put raj in danger of being lynched.

What does any of that have to do with the scenario i sat forth regarding your actions?

It has everything to do with your scenario and how it is flawed.

If raj is scum, voting for him is good. If you don't know his allignment, you don't know if a vote for him is good or bad. So there's no reason to rush to defend him.

If we follow your reasoning, nobody should be voting either IC. That would be stupid.

actually, i don't think it's that stupid. say someone was mafia and it was the beginning of the game... who would be the first person you would like to get rid of? ... the most experienced player, so you could have a better chance of manipulating the newer players. and if you vote quickly, you don't have to give a great reason, and hope that the bandwagon effect comes into play. With no information available, it's about the only plausible case that could be made... and you just happen to be the one that performed the actions.

Do you really think I was trying to get a quick lynch on raj? I didn't even give any reason for voting him, why would people all follow me and bandwagon raj to death simply because I voted him?

Maybe you aren't accustomed to the pace here. Random votes don't lead directly to a lynch. They start conversation. Recently, I haven't seen lynches go down around here in less than 10 pages.

Is it what happened? I don't know. Is it a plausible case. Yes. Again, your explanation of wanting to incur an OMGUS vote is questionable (not just to me, but to others)... so i am comfortable letting it roll.

It's actually a very implausible case. It relies completely on speculation about things that had almost no chance of happening (my vote leading to a bandwagon quick lynch on raj, and that I somehow planned that).

You may think my OMGUS reasoning was stupid, and it may be. I made the vote on page one. There's not much to draw from.

It's at least more fitting than the logic you used to cast your vote for me. You said that i am assuming that raj is town, so i must be mafia... when i have never said one way or the other how i feel about him.

I'm trying to show how your defense of raj means you HAVE TO consider him town. Otherwise, your actions make no sense.

You keep wanting to point to the questions above to disrupt my reasoning, but whether or not raj is town or mafia has no bearing on the fact that you acted suspicious in my eyes. At this point, EVERYONE is considered scum... so if one assumes that everyone voting and being voted for is mafia, then you look for who acts suspicious. To me, you are the stronger of nine evils.

The fact that you consider raj town is very important. Because if you do not consider him town, your argument makes no sense.

[elvis_knits]

i'll i ever wanted to 'argue' was that if you followed my scenario i could consider EK mafia without knowing the status of raj. Do you agree?

I disagree. My whole point is that you have to be considering raj town to view my actions as scummy.

And why did you change your vote to rblinker if you think I'm scum?

[elvis_knits]

So you are saying that no one can legitimately vote for someone they suspect is scum, unless they know that the person their suspect voted for was 100% scum?

This is where you meant: 100% town.

Your statement is not what I am saying. I cannot say it any plainer than I have been saying it. So I guess I will try to go into more depth or explain it differently.

This is my thinking... going into as much detail as I possibly can to try to explain this.

When player a votes for player b, the only reason I might think that player a's vote is bad is if 1)player a gave bad reasoning and/or 2)player B seems town to me.

In the situation where I vote raj, I didn't give a reason (other than I love him, which was not a reason). So you cannot dislike my vote because of poor reasoning. And I don't think raj could have seemed town to you since the game had just begun. The only reason for him to seem town to you is if you KNOW he's town.

I see no other reason for you to dislike my vote.

You have tried to float a theory that I was trying to start a bandwagon and take out my competition. That's complete WIFOM. It relies on a scenario that may or may not be true, but is not supported by anything that I have said.

And when I say you are defending raj -- you are. You were voting me for voting him. If you thought he was scum, you would not dislike votes on him. If you weren't sure of his allignment, you might attack the reasoning for voting him, but not just the mere fact that I was voting him. Because if you aren't sure of his allignment, you don't know if the vote is good or bad.

Also, you haven't told me why you changed your vote to rblinker when you are so adament that I am scum.

[elvis_knits]

Oh, wait, this is your reason for changing your vote to rblinker:

2. Everyone is scum.

Actually, no everyone is not scum.

[elvis_knits]

Actually, no everyone is not scum.

Oh come on, do i have to literally spell out everything i say? Of course everyone is not scum. You asked 'why did i change my vote if i thought you were scum'... i replied 'everyone is scum'.... MEANING everyone to me is scum at the beginning of the game.... in a figurative sense.

...

So basically, you have no reason for voting rblinker. Other than he might be scum, just like any person in the game might be scum.

That is not a good reason. That is essentially a random vote. I don't have a problem with a random vote when they are used at the beginning of the game, to get the game started. But you made a point of saying that your votes at the beginning of the game were NOT random. Why would you vote me for a serious reason, and then when challenged by me, default to a random vote?

[elvis_knits]

So basically, you have no reason for voting rblinker. Other than he might be scum, just like any person in the game might be scum.

That is not a good reason. That is essentially a random vote. I don't have a problem with a random vote when they are used at the beginning of the game, to get the game started. But you made a point of saying that your votes at the beginning of the game were NOT random. Why would you vote me for a serious reason, and then when challenged by me, default to a random vote?

Sheesh.. i can understand you not reading every post and missing my explanation for changing my vote (even though it doesn't speak well for how close you are paying attention here), but when i actually tell you that i already addressed that question, i would expect you would at least try to look for it. guess not.



here, let me provide you with the link. it's the very first post at the top of the page (post 75).

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1&start=75

And since you didn't address the other topic of my response to you, i'll go ahead and assume that you agree that with the scenario i provided, i wouldn't need to know raj's status to pass judgement on your actions. That right?

I'm trying not to mind that this post drips with disdain...

Anyway, sorry I didn't realize you had provided reasoning for your vote on rblinker. You are right that you had said thta before. I don't know why you didn't repeat your explanation or point me to it before, and instead told me the reason for voting rblinker was "because everyone is scum." That caused a wild goose chase.

However, I think your reasoning for voting rblinker is valid. It still doesn't entirely make sense for you to unvote me, as you are adament that I am scum. It seems like back pedaling, or hoping the issue goes away because you stop voting me.

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying not to mind that this post drips with disdain...

Not disdain... exasperation from having to repeat myself so much. Are you playing more than one game or something?

I was repeating myself too, so you weren't alone there...

I am playing 2 newbie games, 2 minis and modding two newbies. I don't think I'm stretched too thin though. I'm not ever going to catch everything anyway.

I don't know why you didn't repeat your explanation or point me to it before,

exasperation from stuff kinda like this... i

did

point you to the explanation before, i just didn't provide the link.

Well, then I missed it. I thought you were saying "everyone is scum" as the reason you were voting rblinker.

So... anyway... I'm trying not to tunnel on podium even though he's the one I'm most suspicious of. I want to look at monsoonhaze's posts and see if there is anything to learn in terms of connections to anyone.

[elvis_knits]

Podium: I don't think I missed that much of your arguments. I think we just disagree. I'm trying to look at everyone today, because it is possible for people to disagree without one being scum.

So... reading monsoonhaze, I don't think he posted enough to give much of anything to us. Potential ties to DDD or podium seem pretty weak. Not even strong enough for me to try to get a reaction to try to get more info out of them.

I am interested in DDD's first post though:

If we have a cop and if they got a result back last night (either innocent or guilty) they should claim and give us the result so the town can win the game. If anyone needs me to explain the logic here, I'll gladly do so.

If we don't have a cop or they didn't get a result last night we'll have to do this the old fashioned way.

I understand the sentiment... we all want a cop to come forward if possible. But the way I read this was like "I'm scum trying to find out if this is the set up with a cop, because if there's cop it's no use for me to try to win."

I thought DDD was fishing.

[elvis_knits]

There's basically no advantage to scum to post that though (other than a perchance for laziness) and some severe disadvantages.

1a) If I'm scum and I post that and there's a cop*; I lose.
1b) If I'm scum and I post that and there's not a cop; Maybe I look helpful and a little more town.
2a) If I'm scum and I don't post that and no one else does; Optimal play, scum has best chance to win.
2b) If I'm scum and I don't post that and someone else does; Move up to scenarios 1a and 1b, but lose the small potential advantage of 1b.

3a) If I'm town and I post that and there's a cop*; I win, optimal.
3b) If I'm town and I post that and there's not a cop; Null.
4a) If I'm town and I don't post that and no one else does; Potentially gave away an easy win.
4b) If I'm town and I don't post that and someone else does; Again move up to scenarios 3a and 3b.

A pro-town player removes uncertainty and benefits the town by posting that information and scum loses huge from posting it.

*Cop with a result

This is how I see it: if there is a cop, the mafia would want to get out in front of it. There's no downside for mafia calling for the cop to come out, since the cop is going to come out anyway.

Either:
1) Mafia asks cop to come out, none appears, mafia looks pro-town and knows there's no cop.
2) Mafia asks cop to come out, he claims, mafia looks pro-town and knows who the cop is.


If there's a cop:
A)Cop has a guilty on the mafia, mafia learns this right away and doesn't waste his time trying to convince the town he's good
B)Cop has an innocent on someone, helps mafia plan who to attack and who not to attack, doesn't waste time fabricating an attack on an innocent investigatee.

[elvis_knits]

Just showing im still here i didnt actuallt notice we had starteed day 2 yet.

THoughts? Suspicions?

[elvis_knits]

This is how I see it: if there is a cop, the mafia would want to get out in front of it. There's no downside for mafia calling for the cop to come out, since the cop is going to come out anyway.

2. If we have a cop, why they should reveal an innocent result?

Doesn't seem like J_Slr would've known to claim as cop with an innocent result, I hate to generalize, but I doubt all the other new players would've known. AND later in your own post you say...

B)Cop has an innocent on someone, helps mafia plan who to attack and who not to attack, doesn't waste time fabricating an attack on an innocent investigatee.

When I clearly demonstrated that a cop with an innocent is a win for the town no matter what scum does. So even you as an IC did not know the proper game theory before hand so your argument about a cop coming out regardless is bunk and blows up your logic.

Furthermore, you're not reading this game seriously enough as rblinker suggested because I laid out a nice neat proof earlier of exactly why this is.

DDD, I do understand your point, and I am reading your posts. I just think that it was pretty inevitable for a cop to come out if one exists. You are saying you think a cop might not know to come out, since they might not have understood that a guilty result gives the town a win (as well as guilty, obv). And you're right that I didn't completely think through the whole scenario.

But I would be willing to bet that anyone with a cop role is going to look at the setup options and realize that if they are a cop and there's a dead roleblocker out there, we have to be in the setup that also has a doc. So they can claim their results and still live to see the next day. I think any cop would claim with a dead roleblocker, and the assurance of a doc.

[elvis_knits]

Probably, but that doesn't mean your motivation for posting that was pro-town. I still think you could have been fishing. It's WIFOM though, I guess.

I keep hoping to hear from the quieter players.

Mod, can you prod rblinker, J_Slr, and podium?

Not that podium is quiet ... but he has been lately.

[elvis_knits]

The reason yy aii havent been joining in the discussion that much is because i cant really catch a point to jump in. I will try to keep up this time lol. So Podium you say vote me out coz im quiet but instead of wasting that vote, y dont u do a little more digging and use your vote wisely .. maybe to vote out some scum. Nd why did u vote me agen.

rblinker, you are lurking. You have contributed nothing to the game. You post and say you have nothing to say. How is that supposed to help us read if you're town or scum? Answer: It doesn't help us. And that is anti-town. Also, how are YOU going to catch scum if you never ask anyone any questions or really participate? Answer: You can't catch scum. THat also, is anti-town.

So that is why your behavior is scummy.

If you are just newbie who doesn't know what to say, you need to at least TRY. Say anything. Give us your thoughts on each player if you'd like.

[elvis_knits]

vote podium

for continuing the argument from yesterday that my random vote on raj could have convinced all the newbies to speed lynch the other IC, and that somehow, I planned that all along.

I thought that since he was letting the argument drop he had rethought the whole thing. Now I see he is persisting. It's not a plausable argument, and I would feel better about him if he admitted today that it wasn't such a "sure thing" as he had said yesterday. I often see mafia continue arguing for something stupid because they think they will look weak to back down. When, really, the opposite is true -- reevaluating shows that you are honestly trying to find the truth. Persisting in bad arguments is scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Hi, prod received. I'll try to post more often here. I think I was just hoping for some more info from rblinker, or even Jslr. But I'm not sure how much that is going to happen.

This is who I am thinking about possibly lynching today -- either podium, rblinker, or Jslr.

Podium is who I would feel most confident lynching because of my reasons from yesterday and how they have continued today. I understand his point that he only really rehashed yesterday's problems because DDD brought it up. But that doesn't make it any better, IMO.

rblinker I feel would also be a good lynch because he is useless at best. I find that a player who isn't helping find scum is usually scum themselves, so being useless is a really bad sign. Newbie can sometimes act like this just because they're still learning. So that's why I'm giving rblinker slightly more leeway. But I don't see things getting better.

Jslr I'm putting into by thoughts mostly because raj feels so strongly that Jslr is scum. But I think the case is too WIFOM for me right now.

[elvis_knits]

Podium is who I would feel most confident lynching because of my reasons from yesterday and how they have continued today. I understand his point that he only really rehashed yesterday's problems because DDD brought it up. But that doesn't make it any better, IMO.

You're good at this game.

I like how yesterday you said you were voting me for persisting on bringing up my scenario, and said that you wished i would say that it wasn't such a sure thing... because re-evaluating your stances means you are honestly looking for the truth. Then i told you that the only reason we were discussing it was in regards to a statement DDD made, and not only that, but i had previously re-evaluated the stance and determined it probably wasn't likely, and reiterated that to you. Then today, you say you understand why it was brought up, and i assume you read my re-evaluation, but you're just going to keep the hammer on me anyway.

That's good stuff. Are you a private investigator or anything? I bet you would be good at that. I'd probably just follow your lead and not do any analysis on my own, if you weren't voting for me. What they put in the water in memphis these days.... everclear?

Sarcasm? I am too drunk on everclear to tell...

I see no reason to think you're pro-town because your new reevaluation now consists of "My reasoning was sound although now I admit it wasn't likely that an IC would try to lynch the other IC with a random vote, planning for all the newbies to speed lynch immediately. Even though unlikely, it still makes sense dammit!"

No, it makes no sense. Stop trying to have it both ways.

I am not a fan of the raj-wagon since I think podium is scum, and his original posting from yesterday hints that he thought raj is town. I know he denies that his attack on me was a defense of raj, but that's what I think it was. And now he's voting raj.

[elvis_knits]

lynch my vote on.

?

[elvis_knits]

Anyone find it odd that raj laid out several reasons of why he was voting J_slr in post 119, then J_slr responded with a rebuttal in post 122, but raj didn't budge with his vote. Then J_slr made a brief analysis of the game, and all of a sudden raj drops his vote. ?? Is that all it takes to clear yourself of suspected mafia activity? Just write up a brief game summary?

*scratches head*

DDD made some good points about raj's voting activity in post 161... raj's next vote will be his 5th change thus far.

I don't care about the number of vote changes... but I do agree that I see almost no reason why raj would change his mind about Jslr at that point.

We agree! Yay!

Also, I almost forgot Luna was even in this game I feel like she's not trying. She has insightful things to say, but doesn't act on them or really get involved enough to make anything happen.

[elvis_knits]

Well, everyone seems to think I'm wrong about podium. Maybe I am. I still call BS about his initial theory on me, but maybe it was newbieness?

I like his observation that three people haven't made any votes this game. That is definitely odd. I feel neutral on J_slr, scummy or clueless on rblinker, and as for raj calling Luna pro-town... I'm not so sure. I modded her first newbie where she was scum and she played a lot like this. Said insightful things but was really just testing the waters to see where the town was willing to go, and let them run away with false accusations. So the fact that she hasn't made any votes this game is disconcerting.

unvote; vote luna louise

[elvis_knits]

lots of posts... yay!

I think I can catch up later today.

[elvis_knits]

I guess we should wish EK a happy birthday. What are we... late forties?

Fun fact: my mom dated one of elvis's closest backup singers back in the sixties -- she used to drive up and hang out at graceland with all of them

I am 29 dammit.

I was joking with my friends that this is the last year that the number will change... you know how women pretend to be 29 forever?

That's cool that your mom knew Elvis. I am jealous!

Anyway... on to business.

[elvis_knits]

As a disclaimer, I am going into WIFOM territory here, but I want to have it said anyway. elvis_knits, you know better than to use one previous game as argument. Just like now, I was indeed a questioner and a cautious voter in that game (N692), but is that because I am Scum now just like I was then, or is it because as Scum in that game I tried to play like I would any other game where I had a pro-Town role ? You know previous games do not inform current ones and if you want to make a claim based upon meta play, I don't think having seen one game of me is a very good starting point for seeing a trend.

I agree more games make a better meta, but that doesn't discount the similarities in your play in 692. Even though it's only one game, I was modding it. And when you are modding it, you read it knowing alligments, and I think I learn a lot more that way.

But I guess you're telling me you play this way as scum or town. (Which isn't the same as saying you're town now, btw). So have you finished any games as town? Can you tell me which ones? I'll look at them to have a better meta.

[elvis_knits]

ek, i hope you saw my birthday wishes on the day. <3

I <3 you.

---

Okay, so after going through all the recent posting I really get a bad feeling about Luna. She's posting a lot now, and saying some smart things, but when I think about them more than once I start to think "where does this lead?" Not anywhere really. I don't feel like she's working towards a conclusion, and still isn't voting anyone. And the whole conversation about who turned in monsoonhaze seems like a WIFOM distraction. I don't think it's helpful or productive to speculate on that. It's sort of like speculating on night kills. Maybe you can figure something out, but it's just as likely you'll be entirely wrong. It's just too unsure for me, and too open to manipulation.

And about podium voting jslr after raj unvoted, I agree that was weird. First of all, because podium was grilling raj about voting jslr. Second, because if you're going to vote jslr, it would be better to vote him together to put more pressure. To vote jslr after raj unvotes, is pretty useless.

[elvis_knits]

here's an interesting tidbit that i previously didn't pick up on... MSH said that DDD wasn't scummy in post 87. Plus his random vote was for DDD -- perhaps he was trying to put some distance between them, even though it was RVS.

hmmmmm

fail...

I'm not sure if we can take anything from MSH's posts, but if anything, MSH spent 2 of his 4 posts defending you.

[elvis_knits]

here's an interesting tidbit that i previously didn't pick up on... MSH said that DDD wasn't scummy in post 87. Plus his random vote was for DDD -- perhaps he was trying to put some distance between them, even though it was RVS.

hmmmmm

fail...

that's not a fail, it's a valid observation.

fail...

MSH defending you in two posts > MSH random voting DDD and defending in one post

[elvis_knits]

Luna: honestly, i think EK voted you because of what you said about her in post 192... she just strikes me as someone who would react that way. that would be her 2nd omgus vote so far, by my count...

*braces for impact*

I don't remember luna calling me scum, so how could it be OMGUS?

SUCK ONE!!!!!!!111[/slam]

[elvis_knits]

We have already established that to you it doesn't matter what Rajrhcpfreak says or does, he won't be able to influence you either way.

This is bullshit and not what I've said at all. I have said that Raj trying to re-interpret his own statement about cross-voting is invalid because of bias. I have on the other hand considered his other points and I find them lacking, simply because I didn't adopt his views as my own does not mean I didn't consider them.

Furthermore, my vote is not set in stone, the other points are open for discussion; additionally, if Raj would simply hunt scum thus showing he's interested in the welfare of the town and find a better suspect then I'd be willing to both consider the opinion and move my vote.

I don't think DDD is being unreasonable about why/how he votes. Often times an explanation doesn't really sway me from my original point since an explanation is usually WIFOM. Who knows if I should believe it or not? Often, seeing the player scum hunt and make other accusations/arguments helps me read the player better and THAT is what will influence me changing my vote or not.

I don't see why this is so foreign to Luna.

raj plays on gut, so he is always hard for me to read. But I haven't seen anything I really dislike from him (except maybe that I didn't understand the jslr unvote). So while I don't agree with DDD that raj is scum, I understand his vote and don't think that he's scummy for it.

[elvis_knits]

raj plays on gut, so he is always hard for me to read. But I haven't seen anything I really dislike from him (except maybe that I didn't understand the jslr unvote).

If Raj plays from his gut and primarily plays on his personal meta; how do the rest of us cut through that? No one can argue with a gut instinct, but it makes great cover for scum, same argument applies for personal meta. I'm not saying this means he's scum, I'm just curious as how we should pick through it to identify whether or not he's scum or town.

I don't really know. Every time I play with him I seem to read him wrong. I lynch him when he's town and one time I saved him when he was scum (I was the mayor and could stop the lynch).

I guess the best thing to do is just try to draw him out more on his reasoning and arguments. I know he plays on gut, but even that can usually be explained somewhat. I think if he's town, his reasoning will make more sense even if it's WIFOM, and if he's scum it won't. You know what I mean? You know how something can be WIFOM, but you sort of believe it? And other times it's WIFOM, but you think it's probably BS?

He once told me he knows he can't get rid of his scum tells, so he just tries to make them as town too. lol.

SO, I'm not saying you should excuse scummy behavior. I'm just saying you shouldn't assume he's scum because he votes impulsively and has WIFOM reasons. You have to try to go deeper than that.

Anyway, I haven't seen anything that really made me think raj is scum.

[elvis_knits]

I got prodded. Sorry. I am reading now...

[elvis_knits]

Okay, DDD wagon a gogo. I don't really understand the reasoning on it.

My feeling is that Luna voted DDD (in part) because he voted raj and didn't plan to change his voted based on anything raj said in his own defense. Personally, I don't think this is so horrible. I made a previous post saying how I can see how DDD feels. Sometimes I think explanations are very WIFOM, and watching future behavior is more indicitive than andy explanation the player gives. BUT, atleast I can see her POV. I think it's wrong, but w/e.

Then raj votes DDD. This part was weird:

luna, i dont know when i said he was town. but you have made alot of good points about him recently and up until now ive been trying not to omgus him by attacking him. i thought that currently any attack i made was going to be null to all the players because of DDD's constant campaign against me.

My question is why didn't you want to OMGUS him? You're the king of OMGUS.

And then Podium's vote with no explanation is very opportunistic.

A. You're distorting the facts. You left out the part where i thought you were town because of one single incident, and if you took that incident out (i presented scenario in which lying would be beneficial if you were mafia), my gut leaned scum.

My question is why did you decide the discount the incident that was making you think DDD was town? And can you point to any things that are contributing to the gut read? I have gut feelings too, but usually if I think about it enough I can figure out what is bothering me about someone.

About the replacements, they've done almost nothing, and I don't really have a read on either of them.

I bet DDD, barim, and tubby will vote me. so then its 3 me and 3 ddd.

Then my buddy EK gets her chance to throw the hammer down and test her instinct. should be entertaining.

Well, I want to discuss the stuff I just brought up. But yeah, if it was between you and DDD I would prob vote you.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't see Luna as confirmed, but I guess it doesn't matter now...

podium you're spewing a whole lot of WHINE-IFOM. Speculating on night kills is pretty useless at best and has the potential to be very manipulative.

If i was maf i would have taken her out and worked on the new guys,

Or maybe you purposely didn't take me out so that you could say "I must be town because if I was mafia I would have killed elvis!!!11"

This is classic WIFOM. It's a BS argument that doesn't prove anything, and whining about nightkills is something scum do to look pro-town. But in reality, it adds nothing to the game, and helps us in no way.

And stuff like this is also useless and feels more like gloating than actually wishing we had a cop:

damn.

i wish we had a cop.

Ok, so podium's scummy. Nothing new there. I want to talk about tubby too though. This was tubby's hammer post:

ok i have read enough


vote:Debonair Danny DiPietro


i believe you are scum

It's not scummy to put down a hammer, and it's not scummy to be wrong and hammer a townie... but tubby gives NO REASONING. Which makes me think either he didn't have any reasoning, or didn't care, both of which are scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Tubby's latest posts are dripping with scum. Hammering on gut like that and then saying he thinks podium is scum off my reasoning. He's not thinking for himself, and just going where the wind blows.

podium is as insulting and scummy as I've found him all game. However, I'd probably go with voting tubby at this point.

[elvis_knits]

I wasn't actually much offended, so don't worry. I've had much worse said to me in these games

Discussing mafia kills can be a scum tell. It depends what is said, and how, and how it comes into the overall picture. With you, I just thought it wasn't helping anything, and putting in content that doesn't advance towards finding scum is usually scummy. Also, there were multiple posts on it, so it seemed a bit much.

[elvis_knits]

Well I'm ready to vote unless we think Barim has something insightful to say. Chances look slim though.

[elvis_knits]

the problem with barim is that nobody has a read on him because he hasn't played. But getting a replacement should take care of that problem. We should be able to get a read if we wait for the replacement.

vote podium

for wanting to kill the role just when we have the chance of getting a good read.

[elvis_knits]

I thought he was trying to see if you would bite. Now I see he's serious...

lets run the possibilities.

we kill tubby, they kill ek tonight. its down to podium, me, and a replacement who we have no read on.

we kill tubby, they kill the replacement. its down to podium, me, and ek

we kill barim, they kill ek. its down to podium, me, and tubby who we know already.

we kill barim, they kill tubby. its down to podium, me, and ek.

the second option on both suck no matter what. but if we get the first option on the killing barim we would be in a better place. and i think we need to give ourselves that opportunity if the game continues.

Why am I dying in so many scenarios?

[elvis_knits]

this is what i am looking for who is more likely to be scum me or ek?

uhm...


podium, I know I have heaped hate on you all game, but I'm actually thinking the reason that I am alive is because tubby was counting on me voting for you today. raj was more of a loose canon, he'd been voting both you and tubby yesterday. I'm the only one who never voted tubby.

[elvis_knits]

this is what i am looking for who is more likely to be scum me or ek?

uhm...

tubby... you still didn't explain what you meant here?

And you didn't explain why you think I'm scummier than podium. I think you are voting me because I expressed stronger suspicion of you at this point, despite what might have been expected.

vote tubby

[elvis_knits]

i am voting you because i took some time to consider pod's point,

What point are you talking about? You're still not showing any signs of having any reason for your actions.

when i voted you last nite pod was on and could have easily quick hammered for the win but held out thus confirming pod's towniness.

I came to that conclusion about pod when you voted me after I expressed suspicion over you. It seems like you're sucking up to him though.

this is all wifom but i would have never brought an IC into endgame, why mostly because IC's are alot better at endgame than i am.

raj and I are both ICs. Whoever you killed last night would have left you with an IC at endgame.

[elvis_knits]

but i am willing to bet that only you know that only you know that for sure i am just guessing here

tubby, you were the first one to say pod was town, which struck me as buddying.

Now you're trying to say that because I agree with you, that I must know for sure that pod is town?

[elvis_knits]

lol... it's funny because you thought we'd both vote you!

But tubby is scum. Notice how he never has any reasons for his votes. And his latest attempts to throw guilt on me are pretty transparent. First he says you're town, and then when I agree, he's like "you must be scum who KNOWS who the townies are!"

[elvis_knits]

I mostly have changed my mind because I didn't expect to be alive. It's true I didn't like your WIFOM speculation before, but endgame is different. At endgame, I don't think anyone would take the chance to keep a player that hates them. It's still WIFOM, but at endgame, I believe it. At endgame, it would be stupid for you to keep me around, and vice versa, if either of us were scum. I think tubby was planning on us fighting and voting each other, and he thought he could hammer either of us.

Also, I guess I have just been rethinking my play this game, realizing I may have been wrong about you

[elvis_knits]

no if i was planning to hammer then i would simply stall and wait to see how either of you voted and if i got voted first i would omgus vote the one who voted for me and make the last townie vote,,

sound familiar oh yah its what you are doin, ek is scum please hammer pod

Actually it's more like you thought I would vote podium and I didn't, so you voted me because you realized you were in deep poo.

[elvis_knits]

after a some thought i decided i believed pod more than ek, so i voted ek

Coincidently after I said I thought you were the scum.

[elvis_knits]

All you figured out was that podium and me weren't going to fight today. Screwed with your mojo.

[elvis_knits]

lol... exactly! You've lost that lovin' feeling.

[elvis_knits]

DAMMIT!!!!

Good Game Guys

[elvis_knits]

So if you guys want to know what happened with monsoonhaze, she/he PMed me during Day 1 and was like "should I hammer podium? I'm afraid if I don't do it I will look like scum." Which was funny since if she did hammer podium at that point it would have been really really scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, I actually didn't think I played too well the whole game, but got by because you guys assumed I was stupid. Which I guess I was

I killed raj because I was afraid he would turn on me, especially because he expected me to die at night. I could just see him being like "sorry honey vote: elvis" without letting me discuss. And also podium kept repeatedly saying how he thought I was a stupid townie, so I hoped he would vote tubby with me. I don't know what I should have done, TBH. Maybe I should have voted one of them, I guess podium, right off the bat today. I thought it looked more pro-town to think about it a little while, but I guess not

[elvis_knits]

First, the modkill. Monsoonhaze sent a PM to Elvis_Knits asking whether or not she should hammer podium when he was at lynch-1 day 1. While I feel bad for punishing EK for reporting her partner, the rule about no communication during the day is fairly clear, and almost all mods would modkill monsoonhaze for that.

I've been in games recently where mods have given players so much rope. Like where people have OBVIOUSLY talked about the game outside of the thread, AND tried to use outside comments as evidence. And they were not modkilled. But I think it's fair to stick to the rules. And modkills are so exciting. I just wish she'd never PMed me.

Thok advised me not to even open PM's from a buddy during the day, since it might be something illegal. Which I thought was good advice. I'd never thought to delete without opening. I guess I am just too nosy!

[elvis_knits]

It's this type of townie infighting that helps scum so much!

And I think it's a dick move when people tell IC's they didn't play well enough. Go play without us if that's what you think. Our job is to answer questions and try to help you, but it isn't our job to always know who is scum and tell you what to do to lead the town to a perfect win. Nobody knows who is scum all the time, and wanting someone else to be able to give you the answers is a cop-out. If IC's were perfect, you wouldn't learn much about the game except to follow the leader.

[elvis_knits]

First off, as an experienced player you should know that...

You ARE making a judgement of him as an IC.

I think newbie games get hung up on all IC's playing the same way, and them being super-serious and for them to present long cases. The reality is that not everyone plays the same. Exposing you to different players and play types is more important than having IC's all play the same and forcing you to play the same way.

[elvis_knits]

Better summaries on other players later.

Oh boy we can't wait.

I know...

[elvis_knits]

DDD, the play might have been unconventional, but you can't argue against the outcome. Town won. They obviously did something right.

[elvis_knits]

Well, DDD, not sure I can argue with you anymore after you said I played well I am a sucker for buddying... for future reference...

I guess I just want to point out that there isn't any one right or wrong way to play the game. The game is always different depending on the players and even each player can be different in some instances. I think it is this challenge that I love about mafia -- no two players are alike and no two games are alike. Even the meta of the site changes, which is cool.

And don't discount the damage that a player like tubby can do. I found it hard to fight against a player who really didn't seem to care about losing, and gave me almost nothing to argue against.

One of the reasons I killed raj was because I know he will stick to his guns, and he's unpredictable. It's much easier to argue with a logical player than a gut player.