Newbie 743: Game over!

[LunaLouise]

Confirm !

[LunaLouise]

Hey Elvis_Knits, good to have you on the playing side of the table for a change (change for me at least) !

[LunaLouise]

Vote: elvis_knits

for still having that incredibly adorable puppy of hers as an avatar

[LunaLouise]

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

Que ? I've probably missed something, but you rolled a two outcome die for....?

unvote: LunaLouise
vote: Elvis_knits

for voting against your fellow IC out of the gate

Is this still random or a serious vote change ?

[LunaLouise]

unvote: LunaLouise
vote: Elvis_knits

for voting against your fellow IC out of the gate

Is this still random or a serious vote change ?

Huh? When did i vote random, and why wouldn't you think that is a serious vote change?

Well, usually a game of Mafia is opened with random or joke voting, because the theory is that it's the quickest way to jump start conversation. As you can see, it worked for us too. It's quite common for players to pick people they know and random vote by making up a complete non-reason, just to acknowledge them. My vote for elvis_knits was my way of welcoming a player that I have previously encountered in a game (I choose her puppy avatar, because she and I will remember that in the game we saw each other in last, orangepenguin already teased her with her avatar in the random voting stage).

But reading your response to my question, I see that what I took as your first random vote wasn't actually random. With my explanation above, does your outlook on my random vote change ?

As for the second question, I was unsure of your vote change, because for reasons explained above, elvis_knits' 'welcoming' vote for her fellow IC did not strike me as odd at all, because I assumed that was her head-nod acknowledgement to rajrhcpfreak. So because I never doubted elvis_knits' vote, I couldn't quite gauge whether for you it was a random vote too. Apparantly, you were serious for both votes.

Again, all this said, has that changed your views on my and elvis_knits' votes ?

[LunaLouise]

but i want to know something e_k...

you voted me. you know since i hate random voting, i usually vote for the person who votes for me.
since you are 'good' you willingly just got a townsperson to vote for you, not very helpful since in your eyes you are good.

since my action is predetermined, the question is: why do you want a vote?
are you trying to make me look suspicious, since you are the only person that knows my play style and the others are obvlious to my unconventional play style?


IGMEOY

Wow, isn't this WIFOM ?

I just see you trying to stretch the table to turn on itself. So elvis_knits voted for you, so you would vote back and she would be able to cry OMGUS in random voting ? Everyone knows that wouldn't have flown anyway, so why are you stretching ?

[LunaLouise]

Oh, and can I request that the ones that do not have an avatar yet get one ? With avatars the picture makes conversations easier to read, 'cause it's immediately clear who is writing. Thanks !

[LunaLouise]

If we follow your reasoning, nobody should be voting either IC. That would be stupid.

actually, i don't think it's that stupid. say someone was mafia and it was the beginning of the game... who would be the first person you would like to get rid of? ... the most experienced player, so you could have a better chance of manipulating the newer players. and if you vote quickly, you don't have to give a great reason, and hope that the bandwagon effect comes into play. With no information available, it's about the only plausible case that could be made... and you just happen to be the one that performed the actions.

I disagree with this reasoning.

Although I could see Newbie Scum wanting to get rid of ICs, in my experience this is hardly true for experienced players with Scum roles. This is because any good Scum player will be nigh impossible to recognise for Newbies as well as experienced players. Just take a look at the lynch accuracy rate. Honestly, it's abysmal. If you expect experienced players to be so much better at finding Scum than Newbies, why is the Townie-flipping lynch rate so high ?

Don't forget that in normal non-newbie games - which is the majority of the games - all players are Inexperience-Challenged. So why would ICs with Scum roles in Newbie games especially go after their fellow ICs with pro-Town roles ? They are already used to dealing with ICs in normal games ! To experienced Scum, a Townie is a Townie, experienced or not.

As said, your point of view is common in Newbies and might hold up for Newbie Scum, but you are building this case against elvis_knits, so I consider your reasoning flawed.

But another thing. I noticed three votes for ICs at the start of the game. Me for elvis_knits, rajrhcpfreak for elvis_knits and elvis_knits for rajrhcpfreak. If you think your 'voters for ICs are more likely Scum' theory, why just go after elvis_knits and not rajrhcpgfreak and me, too ?

At the moment, I see neither of you as overtly suspicious or either of your arguments holding much water. I would rather hear from the silent ones and the posting but non-contributing ones. I dislike lurkers. Especially because you can hardly tell flakers from them.

[LunaLouise]

Hey raj, just curious, what impact do you think the way you break up your record in your sig have on your games? Do you think you draw more early lynches and NKs because of it?

well it proves if you kill me early my side loses. so its a gamble if you target me early.

but if im in the end game then im awesome. (...)

I'm starting to like your game play, because you do say surprising things. First the clear WIFOM and now this. I'm assuming that you know that 'past performance is no guarantee for future success'. The only thing your record proves is that statistics work. In no way should a record ever be any prior information to a game.

(...) the lesson to take from my record is lynching me for my game play and stupid things i say doesn't help the town. it just gets me lynched and cause my side to lose which is usually town.

Assuming that you are Town. Being 'usually Town' so 'lynching me for my game play and stupid things i say doesn't help the town' is pure statistics. Naturally there is more chance of hurting the Town by lynching you, because statistically you have a higher chance of being Town. But this reasoning is only valid if you

are

Town. If you are Scum, lynching you early

does

help the Town.

[LunaLouise]

Ok, just to start up a little conversation, while we wait......

Wait for what ?

I'm with rajrhcpfreak here, there is enough conversation going on to join in and if not, start new game-related conversation. We're here to find Scum, not chit-chat.

[LunaLouise]

I've noticed... see post 58 last paragraph.

[LunaLouise]

I should have sent a LA warning for the last few days, but I seriously didn't think I would have as little time to spend on the game as I did. As of now, I do not have any distractions anymore.

Day One has been dominated by the discussion between Podium and elvis_knits, and since post 7 I haven't changed my mind. So far it has been an one-issue discussion and neither arguments have convinced me. Podium votes elvis_knits because of the fact that he thinks she would want to get rid of her fellow IC. In post 7, I disagree with him that just that fact does not make elvis_knits scummy. elvis_knits finds Podium scummy because he would only find her action scummy if he had background information on rajrhcpfreak's alignment. I also disagree with elvis_knits' reasoning. Especially if you take Podium's explanation at face value. If Podium thinks Scum would vote ICs first, there is no reason to assume that Podium would need more background info to vote her. What would be a good question - IMHO - is why Podium would pick elvis_knits over others voting ICs ? And so I did in post 7.

In the discussion between Podium and elvis_knits, I have not seen anything overtly Scummy. At the moment they have as much chance being arguing Townies as Scum.



I do not have a clear picture of Scum yet, but there are some things that did strike me as odd;

Post 98;

Just a note for all the newer individuals that podium appears to be at L-1 which means the next vote will be sufficient to lynch him. Please do not do anything rash, it's still very early in the game and there's much the town can learn at this point and there's plenty of time to string him up if that's everyone's inclination.

If you don't want Podium to be lynched at this stage, why do you warn against voting instead of removing your vote. Outside random voting, you should only vote for players that you are willing to lynch. If you didn't want that to happen, your vote had no place where it was.

FoS: Debonair Danny DiPietro

Post 115;

(...) does anyone have any thoughts on the choice of night kill.

To my mind its damn petty and makes no sense. This in turn leads me to believe that our missing scum is either an IC (or of similar skill level) or a newbie to the killer role who panicked.

I wonder why you say the kill doesn't make sense. What is the thing that Scum wants most of all (besides dead Townies) ? That Town does not have any information on them. How does Scum accomplish that ? By killing Townies that will either point towards a third party as possible Scum, or by killing Townies that have no link to Scum. In other words, incriminations and null-tells are what Scum want. $user is a good null-tell. How does that choice not make sense ?

Another thing... if this night kill doesn't make sense to you, how come you are able to deduce information from it despite that fact ? You said yourself that you do not see why $user was killed. Killing $user is a null-tell. So I don't see how you can conclude any info on Scum from the null-tell night kill.

FoS: J_Slr

For the rest I do not have any qualms. Will look into everyone more closely soon, but since Day One ended so abruptly and was so clearly dominated, I'm not sure that will reveal any more.

[LunaLouise]

I am prodded too much to my liking, but I can't make my mind up on who I think is Scum, because eight pages in I haven't seen anything overtly Scummy yet.

One of two that don't sit right with me is Debonair Danny DiPietro. He gives off a pro-Town play, but I can't shake the notion that it's a rouse. Maybe because I feel that labelling people Town as buddying up. Why think that someone is Town, it gives off the sense that you have eliminated them as possible Scum ?

The other is J_Slr. He used the RL card a bit too much for comfort. Feels like a good excuse to keep up lurking. If RL is too heavy, ask for a replacement.

And...

Now LunaLouise, she bugs me, she has been helpful, friendly, had no serious votes and seems to be acting like an IC to me and It makes me nervous tbh. I expect the ICs to be helpful and the players to play!

I play by what I know, not what other expect me to do. I, like you, are in my third game on this forum. That doesn't make me an IC, nor a Newbie. I'm in between at the moment. I don't think there is anything I can say that will take your feeling away, if you however come up with a more concrete point, I'll happily give you my view.

Rajrhcpfreak is brushing away his awkward argumentation as playing style. Nothing anyone can build a convincing case against, it's more of a cop out. Just because J_Slr gave evidence of reading and being able to summarise, he is not a suspect to you anymore ? So I'm I off the list now too, with this post ?

Podium, I think, is still getting caught in the nets of 'defend 'till I drop'. But nothing I think that necessarily points to Scum behaviour.

elvis_knits, I think, is just plain wrong about her points raised against Podium. If she wants to convince me, she'll have to find other reasons that hold stake. Besides her accusations of Podium she hasn't contributed much to other lines. Don't have enough to form an opinion on her.

rblinker... 'nuff said by others. Would hate to keep him, would hate to lynch him and find out it was just bad playing style.

I am not voting at this point, because I don't vote unless I am convinced I have found Scum and that is just not the case at the moment.

[LunaLouise]

Post 197;

The fact of the matter is the odds of finding definitive proof of scuminess are extremely low. The best course of action isn't to sit back and wait for the unlikely to happen, it's to play a hunch or a gut feeling or a piece of evidence and use that to push and poke and prod until your hunch is corroborated or negated.

Don't know if you meant to say that I do, but I'm not waiting for proof. I know that won't happen. I love to pursue a piece of evidence, poke and prod, that is why I am here and I hope by now you have realised that the one I poke and prod most, is you.

The following ties in with some of the things I am going to respond to later on, but you say that I should push and poke and prod until my hunch is corroborated or negated. From my point of view, this happens through discussion. And I wonder how you are going to get your hunch about Rajrhcpfreak corroborated or negated.
Post 161;

Raj states that podium and I should get some balls and shouldn't just talk and should vote for each other. However, Raj happens to think that neither of us is scum. What advantage is it to the town for townies to vote for fellow townies? There is none, but there's plenty of advantage to scum for townies to cross-vote.

Vote: Raj

Furthermore, I find Raj's arguments against J_Slr to be weak and he's moved his vote around in such a fashion that no one will blink twice if he moves it back to another player to help secure a lynch. He's dropped early votes on EK and rblinker based on personal meta, but drops those cases to jump on the early podium wagon. Then on D2 he supplies no reason for his lack if suspicion of podium any more, but shifts his vote to J_Slr on completely WIFOM arguments. Couple that with my previously mentioned suspicions of an IC and I find the case against Raj to be compelling.

It's a case you are building, but I wonder how you are going to ascertain if you are close to being right about this ? You are voting Rajrhcpfreak without asking him to explain himself. You ask one rhetorical question and use your own answer as an argument to vote. How is that getting your hunch corroborated or negated ? Apparently it is, because Rajrhcpfreak replies to your rhetorical question in post 168 anyway and you wave it away without giving it the light of day in 173. And your vote sits there.





Post 197;

As for your statements on me, there's not much to say other than to say you've got the wrong read and just because I think or thought someone is either town or scum at the time of any post I make doesn't mean that opinion isn't subject to revision based upon new evidence.

The labels might be subject to revision, but labelling players Town will lead you to read those persons' contributions with a Town bias and you will sooner dismiss anti-Town behaviour as flukes because of that bias. And it's not just for you, others in this game said to too, but I don't like it. I think a mindset like that is unhealthy for a game such a Mafia.





Post 196;

Have not made a SINGLE vote thus far. (not counting RVS)

Maybe this is why people are struggling to get information... because nearly half of the players haven't voted at all this entire game.

Post 199;

i dont know about Luna, ive been getting a big protown read from her. but she really needs to make a vote.

Post 200;

Does it normally take a month to get past the 2nd day and/or get half of the players to vote? And the only reason we got past the first day was because of a modkill... sheesh... come on, non voters...

Post 201;

(...) as for raj calling Luna pro-town... I'm not so sure. I modded her first newbie where she was scum and she played a lot like this. Said insightful things but was really just testing the waters to see where the town was willing to go, and let them run away with false accusations. So the fact that she hasn't made any votes this game is disconcerting.

unvote; vote luna louise

First in response to Podium's post 200, in my limited experience I have yet to be in a Newbie game that ended within 3 months, so yes, I think a month for Day Two is not out if the ordinary. And also, remember that the reason that Day One holds little to no information is

because

of the modkill. Because there was no Town lynch and because of the null-tell night kill, we have no circumstance of death yet that will allow us to question Day One activity. So back to square one of analysing normal discussion at Dawn of Day Two. It has set us back argumentation- and time-wise.

But this is a direct question to all three I quoted above, I wonder why my vote matters so much to you ? You have read my arguments. You already know that I am keeping a watch on Debonair Danny DiPietro and J_Slr, and am still neutral about the rest. Why do you need a vote for that ?

As I have tried to show above with Debonair Danny DiPietro, a vote does not guarantee a good argument or reasoned discussion as an outcome. It is generally said that votes are ways to push a reaction, usually of the nervous kind. How reliable is that ? Are cornered people's reactions reliable tells for alignment ? Does it work well as a tell in pressured police interrogation ? I think not. I have yet to see a pressure situation that was a reliable Scum tell, I have however seen several situations were unfounded or poorly founded votes were picked up by Town and Scum alike and turned into lynches. Some for the better, but mostly for the worse and Town ended up dead. I don't want to place I vote, behind which I don't stand, because I am not risking the start of a runaway bandwagon. I think preventing mislynch is worth more than a guaranteeless possibility of seeing a Scum vote. In short, to me, a vote is not a tool, but a willingness to lynch. I am leaning towards Debonair Danny DiPietro and I am going to continue my discussion with him to see it through, but I am not using voting as a tool to pressure him, nor am I willing to lynch him at this point.

As a disclaimer, I am going into WIFOM territory here, but I want to have it said anyway. elvis_knits, you know better than to use one previous game as argument. Just like now, I was indeed a questioner and a cautious voter in that game (N692), but is that because I am Scum now just like I was then, or is it because as Scum in that game I tried to play like I would any other game where I had a pro-Town role ? You know previous games do not inform current ones and if you want to make a claim based upon meta play, I don't think having seen one game of me is a very good starting point for seeing a trend.

[LunaLouise]

Do you think he would detail how, if we have a cop, the town could win the game if he is mafia? Wouldn't that be quite the gamble to take?

Yeah, it would be a gamble. And yes, if he indeed is Scum, like you said, he has cojones. But my main thought is that since I am looking for Scum and not Townies, I really am not that interested in things people do that make them look more pro-Town. I don't want to count Town points, because Scum try to score them too. That's what Scum does, try and look Town.

Now I know that a post like Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote is extreme even for Scum, but I am not going to put it past any player. As solo Scum on Day Two, it's bad enough. With the situation as it stands now, posting the possibilities has a 25% chance of losing the game for Scum and 75% of remaining undecided (or is it 50/50 with the informedness, I was never a statistics miracle) and having the added avantage of scoring Town points with players who count them, but keeping in mind that Scum knows that you are the only one here who is in their first game on MafiaScum, what is the chance that someone already knew the game theory, or was paying attention ? No one knows... And Scum knows that too. In my book, posting the possibilities certainly doesn't mean that Debonair Danny DiPietro cannot be Scum.

How about a month passing before nearly half the players have placed a single vote. Is that normal?

I don't know. I haven't kept track of that in the games that I have played and read. Pro-active players who do not share my opinion on voting, I don't see going a RL month without voting, but you are counting the votes by people who have contributed least in the game overall, not active players' votes.

And also, remember that the reason that Day One holds little to no information is

because

of the modkill. Because there was no Town lynch and because of the null-tell night kill, we have no circumstance of death yet that will allow us to question Day One activity. So back to square one of analysing normal discussion at Dawn of Day Two. It has set us back argumentation- and time-wise.

...so basically we are still on day one... so that's a month and nine pages of chatter for day one... DDD and J_slr have responded to every point you have brought up against them... at this point, what exactly do you think is going to come about so that you become 'convinced' someone is scum and place a vote?

here, these are your words from a while back:

Will look into everyone more closely soon, but since Day One ended so abruptly and was so clearly dominated, I'm not sure that will reveal any more.

I'm not quite sure what you mean to say with the last quote. I haven't done a person-specific read-through, like I intended to do, yet. But I still agree what I said in that quote. Maybe you can clarify for me why you quoted that specific one.

As to your other multi-layered question, yes, I would, as far as not having leads on lynch/kill voting patterns goes, say that we are still in Day One. Now J_Slr has indeed answered the one question I asked him. He would have to do a lot more for me to see him as voteworthy. With him it is more that I want to see his responses to questions in general, not just mine, and I am keeping an eye on him to see whether he shapes up his game or will continue to excuse himself on RL without asking for a replacement, 'cause that would strengthen the idea of lurking Scum. Now for Debonair Danny DiPietro, I consider the discussion on-going, so to me by default he has not answered all questions I have for him. There are a lot of things that he can do to make me question him more - like contradicting himself, answering questions in an unrelated manner (so answering but not actually giving an answer to the question posed), evading questions completely or other other blatant discussion errors, such as strawmanning - but for the most part I will start to find him voteworthy if he persists in maintaining an unreasonable position. This is not a very strong answer, but it's hard not talking in abstract while not wanting to give Scum a thorough idea of what to do to avoid suspicion. If I've not answered your question in a way that you were expecting it answered, please rephrase so that I have a better understanding.



And answering your first question, I remembered that you had an earlier question along the same lines. Post 202;

Here's the thing though: Do we assume that the person that reported monsoonhaze is the other mafia? We do, don't we? If that's the case, then review post 119. Raj comes out and raises a point that j_slr might have turned MSH in, and expresses disapproval of the modkill for reporting MSH. Would Raj make these statements if he was the one to turn MSH in? That would be pretty damn sneaky, especially in a newbie game where he is IC, to do something like that. Wouldn't it? So if i think he wouldn't pull a trick like that... then i'm led to believe he is town, based on this post. Thoughts?

ok, this isnt great evidence. but jsir was pretty active and i feel like he would report his mafia mate for doing an illegal activity. (aside: i dont know how mod killing a newbie in a game for breaking this rule really helps. i odnt know how much help the mafia could have gotten and because of the honesty of the other mafia it was caught and now he is being punished. i am also a little disapointed, in the words of alexander the great, "i did not cross asia to steal my victory in the night like a theif." but hey i guess ill take it.)

It goes back to what I said at the beginning of this post, I am not counting Town points. If Rajrhcpfreak was the Scum that turned his buddy in, then yes, posting about it could be an attempt to score Town points. But if Rajrhcpfreak is Scum, I could see him reporting Monsoonhaze without considering that Thok might actually Modkill her for it instead of just sending out a reprimand, since he says 'i dont know how mod killing a newbie in a game for breaking this rule really helps.'.

[LunaLouise]

Don't know if you meant to say that I do, but I'm not waiting for proof. I know that won't happen. I love to pursue a piece of evidence, poke and prod, that is why I am here and I hope by now you have realised that the one I poke and prod most, is you.

And yet you haven't found any evidence strong enough to cast a vote or even felt a vote was needed to pressure anyone. A bit odd from someone who claims to love to poke and prod. As for your last line, in the dryest voice possible, "fascinating".

I don't intent for you to be anything else than fascinated. I do intent for you to read thoroughly though. As I have explained in detail in the post you quote, I don't use votes to pressure anyone. Ever... So your statement that I 'haven't even felt a vote was needed to pressure anyone' is nonsensical. Back to your sensible remark, you are right, for someone who loves to prod and poke, I haven't found any evidence strong enough to cast a vote with intent to lynch.

I'm going to ascertin that when Raj either explains away my suggestions effectively or either fails to either attempt or do that effectively. However, not all points are open for discussion, I don't believe there to be an effective rebuttal for the cross-voting line because as soon as I made the argument he began to revise his meaning, but there's no way to tell if his revision is in good faith or not.

For one, how do you expect Rajrhcpfreak to 'explain away my suggestions effectively' when you do not ask him directly for explanations but immediately move to using your own rhetorical question as argument ? It was of his own volition that he answered to your post at all.

For two, I am glad though that you agree with me that as far as your vote on Rajrhcpfreak goes, it's there and it's not going to budge, since 'not all points are open for discussion' and even if he were to rebute some, others would still stand because of that view of yours. I think that is a very questionable play at best.

Furthermore, that was only one part of my argument against him, I still remained concerned about the way he's moved his vote around and am not particularly impressed by the recent j_slr unvote. As for my vote, it remains on the person I believe most likely to be scum, a very simple policy. It'll move my vote if raj is no longer my top suspect, if I feel my vote is needed to pressure someone else, or if a deadline is ever set and we need my vote to get a lynch.

Granted. But like I said, questionable tack at best.

I'm glad you can tell me how my mind works, that must be a handy skill to have, if only you weren't, you know, incorect.

It is, but it's just basic human psychology, anyone can learn the basics. I am glad though that there is always the exception to the rule. Not so glad that you seem to think it's you. (If you can enter into non-argumented ad hominem, I won't back out. Mud slinging is good for my skin.)

[LunaLouise]

(...) but you are counting the votes by people who have contributed least in the game overall, not active players' votes.

Don't follow you here... i was talking about the 3 of you that haven't voted yet beyond a random.

Okay, then I have misunderstood your question, I thought you meant it more generally speaking. I have already detailed extensively why I haven't voted. Rajrhcpfreak has brought up the possibility of NoLynch voting that I will discuss with him later. As for the other players not voting for a month, is it normal ? I don't know. Is it their game style, or the fact that they are hardly here ? Again, I don't know. Could I guess ? Yes, I could think of a few reasons, but I don't think you want me to answer for other people. I would prefer not to in a game like this, because if you have other people answering for you, it's too easy to adopt their explanation. Town could miss valuable opinions and self-incrimination if we let people answer for other players.

I quoted that mostly for the part about "i'm not sure that will reveal anymore". I was assuming that you had already sufficiently reviewed the thread by now... which you say you haven't... to which i have to say: how long do you need to review everything? There isn't that much here... and you have made several game summaries thus far that pretty much wrap up everything that has happened. There don't appear to be any substantive debates going on about actions, and i only foresee arguments about philosophies/strategies to come.

I don't feel that there is much more to gain at this point, but i know what you are saying... perhaps you will get somewhere.

This native is growing restless, though... it's time for some (more) scum blood to flow.

Ah, I get you. Well, like you said, I am up to speed on this game, have added my analyses and lately some discussion, but there is a difference between read-throughs of the game and player-specific read-throughs. If you only read the posts of one specific players it's easier to spot contradictions or abrupt changes in play or thought that otherwise would get buried in the flow of the game. So although I am firmly grounded in the game now, I still need to take the time to do the player-specific read-through, which always takes a lot of time and attention to make sense of.

Yes, i considered that as well... it's the one scenario i could possibly see happening -- raj reporting MSH expecting the mod to just refresh him/her on the rules, and being surprised when it resulted in a modkill, and then expressing his disappointment the way he did. But my feeling that he wouldn't be that sneaky -- an IC in a newbie game reporting MSH and then acting like he didn't -- ended up overriding that suspicion.

Like I said, I don't count Town points.

[LunaLouise]

so everyone moves onto jslr after i move off him... comeon people.
for the record i dont really feel like voting him right now. and especially with the amount of non voters i dont think i will be putting the hammer down any time soon.

You don't feel like voting him, right now ? Like you don't feel like watching a movie, right now ? Either you are convinced he is most-likely scum, or you are not. What do you mean, you don't feel like it ?

luna, your reasoning for not voting is solid. but doesn't that mean when you are not voting then you are currently voting no lynch? sorry, but your rising on my scumdar after ek mentions your play from other games.

NoLynch vote. Yes, I've come across it in the game theory, but never in a game. I haven't thought of voting NoLynch, because I have always seen voting NoLynch more as a means of expressing one's displeasure with a lynch that is about to happen. More like; "Okay, you are about to lynch [insert player's name] but I don't think he is Scum, so I'm voting NoLynch on this lynch". I don't feel like a NoLynch vote is applicable in my case because it's not that I am voting against a lynch, I am just not convinced of anyone's alignment at the moment.

Do you see a NoLynch vote differently, if so, can you elaborate on how you see it and how you would see it used in my case ?

podium, i like how your setting up votes. great scum tactic.

I don't see what you are getting at. Please elaborate.

on me mentioning who would turn moon in... please dont wifom the hell out of it. you all are already making me dizzy thinking about it. honesty i think anyone could turn him in. and i think you all could agree that this isnt the best learning situation and there probably wasnt national secrets shared, thats all i ment by my comments.

Is it WIFOM, though ? Not for me. Podium and I were just speculating on a reason why you would write post 119 if you had turned in Monsoonhaze, just like we could any other player. I don't know about Podium, but for me it's not WIFOM, since for me there is no argument in the outcome of the speculation. For something to be WIFOM, I would have to find importance in the outcome and since I don't count Town points, for me it doesn't matter what the outcome of the speculation is either way. Therefore no WIFOM.

[LunaLouise]

The question was more sarcastic than anything else.

Ohh... Sarcasm is often wasted on me... isn't that ironic ?

My point was really -- ok, how much time do you need to do 5 player specific read throughs? late july?

Sarcasm again ? I'm getting good at this... No, you are right, but I am biased towards putting off the task as I'm pretty sure I'm not going to find anything solid anyway. Doesn't mean I shouldn't though.

Yeah, but my point wasn't so much a town point... more of a responsible IC point.

As an IC he is not supposed to answer questions deceivingly to win a game, but if not asked questions by Newbies, he is entitled to play the game, like anyone else, which will be straight or not so straight depending on his role.

....or was this question more sarcasm ?

[LunaLouise]

Expected as much... thanks for letting us know !

[LunaLouise]

Hello Barim and Tubby, welcome to the game. Glad to have you here.

[LunaLouise]

(...) the vote doesnt mean that i am convinced that he is most likely scum. if we all did that we would all be sitting around doing nothing. but i had a pretty big gut feeling that he was scum.

after his response i decided to give him a little slack for a while. some of the initial gut reaction was gone after he made the recent post. a little stays with the refusal of a vote.

It's the awkward phrasing that bugs me. Using the phrase 'I don't feel like it' implies that you should, but'd just rather not for unwarranted reasons. Of course, you also vote for other reasons than finding someone most likely Scum, but J_Slr you did vote because he was top of the list. Was that one summarising post enough to drop him back into the pool, or do you have a different main contender on your radar and is that why you backed off of J_Slr?

the act of voting no lynch, would only be acceptable if it benefits the town to not lynch a person that day.

since voting is the most important information the town can get, voting no lynch is not helping the town.

but since you are not voting for a person because you dont want them to be lynched yet, that means you are giving yourself an excuse to not make any enemies. just because of your meta.

Okay, so you have the same view of NoLynch votes as I have. In that case, I don't think I can do much besides agreeing with you. Voting NoLynch doesn't help the town indeed, that is why I don't. And you can see my refusal to back a lynch with a vote as me giving myself an excuse not to make enemies, but I think I don't need to do that. I have made it very clear, who I think is most likely Scum. Debonair Danny DiPietro is top of the list with me, J_Slr is distant second (but I need to review that since he has been replaced). The way I see it, I don't need to place a vote to make enemies, pursuing the ones I suspect with discussion will do that enough for me.

What I think you are forgetting tough, is that I will vote. It seems that you think that I won't vote at all and that I just sit here for decor. I am a more cautious voter than your average player, but I will vote if I think I have found Scum. I think I have, but I want to have some more answers from him, before I want to take the risk of starting or supporting a chain of votes that will end in lynching Town.

its WIFOM no matter what the outcome. ill admit that your right if you can get someone else to say that the bottom of 208 is not wifom.

Although the circumstances of WIFOM are interesting, I'm not really interested in letting this one go round again. I am probably am wrong and if people do agree with me, as I said before, I don't count Town points, so the outcome of this discussion will not matter in my conclusions anyway. I gave my opinion because Podium asked, but keeping it going longer will only distract me. It'd be glad to have the discussion with you after the game ends.

no im just frustrated that i kept mentioning him and only after i give him another shot for the day i see you two join.
if you all had joined earlier i might have stayed to pressure a claim. i really dont think i should switch my vote once again because i will be with the majority.
and i thought you and luna joined after i got off. if she wasnt then my bad but i assumed she did since i didnt see a vote from her and i saw you mention the FOS for your vote.

The FOS Podium referred to the one in post 132, which I consider to be adequately answered. I am nowhere near considering to vote for J_Slr (better yet at the moment, his replacement).

[LunaLouise]

One, because it is in his best interest to respond to my posts. Direct questions are nice, but not necessary as long as you're willing to lay out your reasons for a vote and give that person a chance to respond.

You are not answering my point. The point is not whether Rajrhcpfreak answers or not, the point is that you are not interested in what Rajrhcpfreak has to say. The answer in your second line and towards Rajrhcpfreak confirm that;

Two, some issues of the game are like Pandora's Box, they can only be opened once. As soon as I remarked upon Raj's comment he immediately began to spin his comments to fit more in line with what should've been said originally. Maybe that's what he intended to say, but the original tone and phrasing suggests he meant something entirely different from what he tried to revise his comments into.

DDD, what do i need to say to you?

Need to say? Nothing, there's no outstanding questions and I think you've touched on all my arguments, I just haven't been convinced by your points. I think you're most likely to be scum. Unfortunately, you don't get take backs in this game and claims of personal meta don't impress me in explaining away your voting behavior.

The way I see it, anything a player does is open to discussion and should be discussed. By not discussing your suspicions of players' actions with them, using your own rhetoric answers as argument for your vote and saying of the rest of the arguments that they are Pandora's Box and whatever the suspicious player says will not change the way you see what you saw, you are playing an anti-town game.

I'm not quite sure what the second part of the post is supposed to mean in all honesty, but it mostly seems irrelevant. As for the first, considering I actually know me and you know a handful of posts in an internet game, I'm pretty sure I'm better qualified to judge my own various neurosis and behaviors, thanks.

Your ad hominem that started this chain was indeed irrelevant, I was simply responding to it. I am quite happy to let this one pass by.

[LunaLouise]

It's all well that you say that, but you know as well as I do that what you brought up now has no bearing on the situation that I am questioning you for. We are not discussing something Rajrhcpfreak wrote that you misread. We are discussing a situation far more elaborate, a situation that goes beyond a third party being able to step in to say 'I think you got it wrong'.

All of us here are conditioned not to answer queries directed at other people, that comes with the territory of playing Mafia. On top of that, all here are hesitant to stick up for others as that is more often than not attracting suspicion on oneself. And more importantly, because it's directly from our discussion, the type of accusation that you brought forward is not even the type that can be countered by anyone but Rajrhcpfreak himself. So why say that you would reconsider if a third party stepped in ? You have deliberately put yourself in a situation that you yourself have set up in a way that is, according to you, not open for reconsideration. Why bring in a hypothetical situation that has no bearing on our discussion, albeit true or not ?

I feel that you are deliberately trying to evade answering direct questions. I feel that you are trying hard not to give a direct, non-embellished answer and I think you do the same here as you did in your discussion with Podium at the beginning of Day Two; giving answers that are just sightly off the mark. I don't like it.

Again. You have already said that you, being suspicious of Rajrhcpfreak, will not take anything that he says at face value and for that reason anything he says will not alter your view. Looking back, do you feel that you have built your case with enough room for anyone to do anything that could make you reconsider your point ? Unless you own up and give a straight answer, I feel that I have given you enough room for discussion and I feel that I am am done here.

[LunaLouise]

Okay, so after going through all the recent posting I really get a bad feeling about Luna. She's posting a lot now, and saying some smart things, but when I think about them more than once I start to think "where does this lead?" Not anywhere really. I don't feel like she's working towards a conclusion, and still isn't voting anyone.

I don't see where this comes from. From the moment that I found Debonair Danny DiPietro's actions noteworthy, I have taken it up with him. I think I have had a clear line in questioning him and I think that where I am going is also obvious. The discussion now has landed at a point where if Debonair Danny DiPietro does not stop evading answering to the point, I am done questioning and will vote him.

If you see it differently, or if you see specific things that I have missed or should handle differently, I would like to hear it. For now, I think your misgivings are not clear and specific enough for me to give a more meaningful response.

And the whole conversation about who turned in monsoonhaze seems like a WIFOM distraction. I don't think it's helpful or productive to speculate on that. It's sort of like speculating on night kills. Maybe you can figure something out, but it's just as likely you'll be entirely wrong. It's just too unsure for me, and too open to manipulation.

I agree, it is certainly a distraction, I have told Podium that from the start. In the meantime, in response to the post Rajrhcpfreak wrote before yours, I have also asked him to discontinue the WIFOM discussion for now and perhaps continue it after the game ends. So I think this point is moot.

[LunaLouise]

Sorry, this bit should have been added too...
---

I agree more games make a better meta, but that doesn't discount the similarities in your play in 692. (...) But I guess you're telling me you play this way as scum or town. (Which isn't the same as saying you're town now, btw). So have you finished any games as town? Can you tell me which ones? I'll look at them to have a better meta.

I am aware that saying that my play is always questioning and cautious is not the same as saying that I am Town. I think we will both agree that your suspicion of me is not yet at a point where it would warrant a claim from me.

This is my third Mafia game. The first (N692) as Scum you modded, the other (N698) I replaced in as Town and got night-killed the following night and this one.

[LunaLouise]

As it was, I didn’t know I was being interrogated, I thought we were having a discussion which by its very nature flows organically. If you want a specific question answered I suggest pulling it out of whatever paragraph you buried it in and make sure it stands free from the rest of your comments.

From the start I have asked; seeing how you set up your case against Rajrhcpfreak, how do you expect it to be confirmed or negated. As far as I see it, it was clear what I wanted answered. Apparently to you it was not. I'm sorry if I was lacking on my part, I'll try and make it more clear in a future discussion, so as to prevent this situation. I am glad you gave some direct answers tough.

But yes, your answers in previous posts were and still are evasive to me. I started a discussion, but after getting nothing two tries, the third was more accusatory than anything else and it changed tone. At this time, I can not distinguish anymore between genuine confusion or deliberate evasiveness and since I, as a neutral bystander, saw the same pattern in your discussion with Podium, I am going to have to assume the latter.


---

Okay, for the moment, I am not going to respond to the section you wrote in between these two, because, although I strongly disagree with your conclusions, it's a sidetrack to the main point I am trying to discuss with you and for the moment I don't want to go there.

And more importantly, because it's directly from our discussion, the type of accusation that you brought forward is not even the type that can be countered by anyone but Rajrhcpfreak himself.

How can it be countered by him?

The fact of the matter is he didn’t say “Guys, if you both think each other are town this is an unproductive discussion”; he said, “I think you two should vote for each other already, but I think you’re both town”. Simply saying he meant the first doesn’t mean he didn’t post the latter.

That's exactly my point !



Look, this is how you wrote your original post;

we have this huge argument. but neither are voting for each other. get some balls and vote with them.

i still dont think podium or DDD is scum.

Raj states that podium and I should get some balls and shouldn't just talk and should vote for each other. However, Raj happens to think that neither of us is scum. What advantage is it to the town for townies to vote for fellow townies? There is none, but there's plenty of advantage to scum for townies to cross-vote.

Vote: Raj

Furthermore, I find Raj's arguments against J_Slr to be weak and he's moved his vote around in such a fashion that no one will blink twice if he moves it back to another player to help secure a lynch. He's dropped early votes on EK and rblinker based on personal meta, but drops those cases to jump on the early podium wagon. Then on D2 he supplies no reason for his lack if suspicion of podium any more, but shifts his vote to J_Slr on completely WIFOM arguments. Couple that with my previously mentioned suspicions of an IC and I find the case against Raj to be compelling.

We have already established that to you it doesn't matter what Rajrhcpfreak says or does, he won't be able to influence you either way.

You keep bringing up the hypothetical situation that a third party could come in, give an second opinion for you to consider that would change your mind. But the way you wrote this post that is just impossible, a hypothetical ! Sure it

could

have happened if you had questioned first or maybe if you had wrote your post differently. But because your accusation is such a piled statement, a third party could never make you reconsider it, because they would have to explain for Rajrhcpfreak every and all things he did. No third party would ever do that ! Not Scum, nor Town.

So by writing the vote post the way you did, you wrote it so that it can never be negated by anyone. The only person we expect to counter it is Rajrhcpfreak, but he won't be able to sway you no matter what.

You have deliberately put yourself in a situation that you yourself have set up in a way that is, according to you, not open for reconsideration. Why bring in a hypothetical situation that has no bearing on our discussion, albeit true or not ?

Because you’ve been trying to paint me as unwilling to change my opinion on this issue when that’s untrue. I’m unwilling to replace my own opinion on the issue with Raj’s, but I’m willing to consider that I am wrong if an unbiased observer can demonstrate how.

I'm not trying to paint you as anything. I am trying to show that you are trying to apply the generalisation of a third party opinion coming in to change your mind to a situation of deadlock that you have deliberately created that way.

Again. You have already said that you, being suspicious of Rajrhcpfreak, will not take anything that he says at face value and for that reason anything he says will not alter your view.

Nothing he says

about himself

will likely move my vote, no.

Looking back, do you feel that you have built your case with enough room for anyone to do anything that could make you reconsider your point ?

Yes and I’ve made that clear, I’m willing to be swayed about Raj by someone who has no incentive to cover up for him and if someone else appears more scummy then I’m willing to move my vote.

I think I have illustrated my point enough. These last two answers precisely illustrate my suspicions. You do not support your vote with discussion. You are not willing to listen to anything the accused has to say. Despite the fact that you say a third party can make you reconsider, you have barred that possibility by the way you built your case and wrote your vote post. There is no way for Rajrhcpfreak to defend himself and we all know that there won't be anyone to stand up and try to sway you because they will have to explain every and all things Rajrhcpfreak has done this game.

I think I have explained my suspicions enough and since you keep to your original stance, I can't do anything but draw this conclusion. You and the way you are accusing Rajrhcpfreak are not open to discussion, communication or given a viable possibility for exoneration. Your play is anti-town and hurts the town. I think you are Scum.

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

I would appreciate the rest of Town pitching on with their opinions.

[LunaLouise]

Luna, if you had to vote right now. and the lynch depended on your vote. and if you didnt vote, it would be No Lynch. Who would you vote for?


ill be willing to forgive your non votes if you can answer that question periodically during the game.

I think you already knew the answer. Debonair Danny DiPietro. But thank you for wanting to find a way to make our differences in play style work for us both.

[LunaLouise]

Debonair Danny DiPietro is at -1 now. Next will be the hammer.

Why did you two jump your votes ?

Rajrhcpfreak;
You have up until now not shown anything even remotely like suspicion towards Debonair Danny DiPietro, you even said you thought he was Town.


And Podium;

if i disregard the 'cop claim, we win' issue, then my gut might lean toward DDD -- but honestly in writing he's done no more or less than i have (vote and argue a lot), so i don't see any reason that i could vote for him without being a big hypocrite.

[LunaLouise]

you spend over a month preparing to vote for who you believe is scum, so when you place the vote and people follow you, the first thing you do is question their votes?

Of course I do. My vote is not moving, but I am still playing the game until Scum is lynched. And I follow-up on anything I didn't expect to happen or be said. These two votes being cast is such quick succession, after my vote has been up for half a week and almost a page of play, piques my interest. So I follow-up.

Can you elaborate your vote, please ?

luna, i dont know when i said he was town. but you have made alot of good points about him recently and up until now ive been trying not to omgus him by attacking him. i thought that currently any attack i made was going to be null to all the players because of DDD's constant campaign against me.

furthermore, the game is slowing down and like i said earlier, i felt like we needed a bandwagon and he was the only one that i felt like i could vote for at this moment.

You said you thought both Podium and Debonair Danny DiPietro were Town at the start of Day 2. Okay, the first time in post 158 you actually say you don't think either of them is Scum (which obviously is different from thinking them Town), but in posts 168 and 176 you say that you think Debonair Danny DiPietro is Town, so you seem to use the two interchangeably.

After those three posts, there is no mention of you changing your mind about Debonair Danny DiPietro.

[LunaLouise]

I've skipped some comments/questions in lieu of Podium's and Rajrhcpfreak's votes on Debonair Danny DiPietro. I'll comment/answer now.

---

Anyways, Luna I was going through Raj's posts and found something I thought might interest you with the latest kick you're on.

oh, and slr. im not openly campaigning for you yet, so don't freak out. and there isnt anything you can do to get me to change my vote by posting a reply to my arguments, thats usually the norm to respond to votes. but my arguments are mainly gut (or wifom to DDD),

and even if you try to argue that my reasoning is wrong like DDD, it wont make me change my mind.

I don't see how that is like your situation. He didn't set up his vote for J_Slr in a way that you did. In this case, Rajrhcpfreak left plenty of room for J_Slr to move and other people to pitch in. You didn't.

I don't think DDD is being unreasonable about why/how he votes. Often times an explanation doesn't really sway me from my original point since an explanation is usually WIFOM. Who knows if I should believe it or not? Often, seeing the player scum hunt and make other accusations/arguments helps me read the player better and THAT is what will influence me changing my vote or not.

I don't see why this is so foreign to Luna.

I don't see what you are trying to say. You don't see how what is so foreign to me; DDD not being unreasonable about why/how he votes or an explanation not really swaying you from your original point since an explanation is usually WIFOM ?



Elvis_knits, do you have an opinion on more than Rajrhcpfreak's meta and me ? I feel that you are slipping through the cracks. I'd like to hear more from you.



Barim, Tubby, more to add yet ? I think there is more for you to comment on.

[LunaLouise]

Go get 'em, Town !