No, you are not obvtown, and you trying too hard to push a weak case makes you more likely to be obvscum than obvtown. Mostly because townies don't really need to try to appear obvtown, because they are. Scummers have to try to appear town because they aren't. Your trying is showing.Raivann in 10 wrote:I appear overly townie because i am obvtown and I'm looking to string up some scum.
You are going to get WIFOM'd to death by looking at it just that way. There are all types of scum, aggressive, passive, semi-lurker, actual good player looking at the weak points in townies/partners defense. I *try* to look at planning. Strong scum will have a plan that might become apparent, while weak scum lack planning, and are rather erratic.arelian wrote:Basically the mindset I've approached this game with was thinking about each person in terms of "if you are scum, are you trying deliberately to do the opposite of what you should be doing?" Like, I don't think Raivann is scum because he is acting in such a way that would potentially put him at risk to be lynched. Scum wouldn't do that. Maybe it's not the best view on things though. I guess what I should really be doing is searching for logical problems and attacks that don't make sense, as that is what scum really would want to do. They would want to put the pressure on someone with whatever logic they could get away with.
I've seen aggression work, but it's relatively rare. Besides, you're misrepresenting my case by boiling it down to I want you dead "because you are aggressive". While true I believe your playstyle needs to be refined, the way you went about it early on is reckless and you obviously didn't read everybody clearly if you got me being scum out it (when you were looking for reactions to everybody.) Your accusation that Camn "helped" me by putting forth a case is similarly ridiculous. She never contributed to my points against you, and it was all me.Raivann wrote:First of all Amished is obvscum now. You guys do realize he is trying to get me lynched because I am aggressive and pushing this crap case that I'm scum because of it.He is portraying me as stupid scum. He called my playstyle stupid more than once(dont worry ,no offense taken Ed) He is trying to get control of this thread. You all are drinkin the kool aid down too. What if Camn was tring to help him out when she made him try to post real case against me?
Regardless of your 2nd sentence, it is fearmongering, and that is never a good thing. Ever.Raivann wrote:Guys, camn and Amished are good at this game and this could be a scary scum team if it is indeed the case.
This is something to chew on dont everyone go freakin out.
I used crusade because of the mindlessness and relentlessness you used while you were attacking Hamburger. Me being defensive of him would more suggest that I'd be paired with Ham, but no, that's not the case at all in your world.....Raivann wrote:Crusade against you and Hamburger, right. It does fit with my avatar but that's about it. I was trying to get a read on everybody. I liked Hamburger's response to my 2 post Crusade against him. But you got overly defensive, which is scummy to me.
I put attack in quotes because it didn't feel like you were actually attacking him. You had your hyperaggressive style that you were using, then to ask Cojin in another "meta" for lack of better word signaled to me that you weren't really asking with the same confidence that you attacking would hold.Raivann wrote:Am I that much of a meanie? Why do you got "attack" in quotes. I was just asking people questions and using my vote as a tool. I tried asking Cojin a question, I didn't like his answer, so I voted him. I figured it would get him talking more than "not at this time,no"
You state that chain-lynches are bad, and say that because somebody attacks somebody else it doesn't mean that the former is necessarily scum, but you state that Raiv and I are almost certainly of different alignments both setting up a chain lynch if I'm wrong, and saying that it wouldn't always be conclusive if I was.Azhrei wrote:Why are me, Amished and Raivann almost certainly town? I'd say that if anything, Amished and Raivann especially are likely to be of opposite alignments. And if I wasn't me, I'd still be suspicious of me. Really. And if we get chain lynches like that, we've lost this game anyway. Just because someone attacks someone, and gets them lynched, and they turn out townie, does not make the aggressor scum. That's why chain lynches = bad + scummy.
Nope, not saying that. I'm an overall aggressive player, and some of the more well-known scumhunters are pretty aggressive (ABR comes to mind). Aggression with a purpose is great. Random aggression for no particular reason = anti-town and distracting.Scien wrote: I don't agree that aggression in itself is a bad tactic from a townie. I think you are saying that?
Too townie, eh? That's still bogus. SCUM ARE NOT (ever) "SO PRO TOWN TO BORDER ON BEING SCUM". They're scummy, occasionally bringing up good points, but never extremely pro-town in all cases. Ever.Cojin wrote: Amished: Posts seem Very pro town,but so pro town its bordering scum tell, I view amisheds post as informative and he is too much use to lynch
I'm not seeing any pressure.Cojin wrote:Although its not direct pressure i still saw it within his posts.Raivann's support for me being town is a little unsettling, mainly because I don't feel like I've made a strong enough case for myself yet. Does he know more than he's letting on?
Over the top accusations, which have done well to get the game started. I don't know if you're attacking people because you're trying to get the focus off you, or because you want to put the pressure on them. You could also be trying to present yourself as an easy target by appearing scummy, to see who in turn attacks you to conclude that they themselves are scum.
I don't want to lynch Raivann yet
Despite me being behind Raivann for probably the entire game, I think his agressiveness and lack of a real defense may be finally catching up with him. I still don't want to vote for him quite yet though. I want to hear Raivann's response to Amished's post.
*Mindlessly* attacking people with *no* reasoning *two* posts into the game is anti-town at best.camn wrote:Not scummy8: After Hamburger's random vote to start off the game, (of which there *can* be no evidence that it wasn't random) he starts his ... "crusade" early on against Hamburger and I
Stating something that I feel to be scummy is everybody's problem. Because he dropped a scumtell is still his problem. You point out something scummy in another player isn't just your problem.Your problem, not his.10: I have an inherent distrust of people who state they're obvtown,
It's a lead and start to a linking between two scummy players. If there's a linking this early, I feel it should be pointed out.So.. Raiv is scum because Cojin voted him? Hmm. Not compelling.12 by Cojin: (who is my tentative partner) Votes Raivann, this time truly to distance himself from his partner I believe.
Read abovemore about cojin? Not relevant.14 by Cojin (Italics will be by him)
He wasn't admitting he was wrong, he was admitting that he knowingly attacked unjustly.Town-tell. Admitting you were wrong.16: Admits it was an unjust attack,
Link, and why single out Cojin. The way Raiv phrased it looked off to me, and now how I would ask another person if I didn't know their alignment.So?27: Specifically asks Cojin who people's alignment is
It's a stupid reason for a vote (them not liking your name) and while he's admitted to trying to kickstart the game. Getting it started then a "random" vote is most likely distancing.OMGUS is not a scumtell.31: Raivann "attacks" Cojin (and places a vote on him which would be the second behind arelian) for Cojin not liking Raiv's name.
If you think they're not being active, make them come forward so you can pin down their opinions. Not voting them and leaving it there. It's still a way to keep a reason for voting for somebody without doing anything either.Which is a fine play. The vote was already on him, right?32: Raivann basically flat out says that Cojin is scum for active lurking. Does nothing to draw Cojin into the game, just states it.
Fair enoughFOS'ing someone, then attacking them later is a logical progression. Not scummy.33: Gives me an FoS for stating that Raiv's case on Hamburger was bogus. I believe that this was to be a precursor to an attack, and attempting to show that he's been suspicious of me for a while.
Yes, the link between them that I stated I was going to try to build in the start of my case post.MORE ABOUT COJIN!36: Cojin says ...
I have reasoning and links between Raiv/Cojin. He has neither.How is this scummy? You are doing it with cojin in this very post!59: Raiv now tries to set me up with "my scumbuddy Sustain."
It's only pro-town because he's making it easy to find scum...Internally inconsistent. If he is undermining himself, and he is scum, then it IS protown.67: Says that being over-aggressive is not anti-town (when I both disagree with him that he's just being false aggressive undermining himself with every vote, and that being aggressive for the sake of being aggressive is partially anti-town; either leading people on false witchhunts or distracting the players.)
Giving a different reason for his posts than initially (finding scum right off the bat) is inconsistent and therefore scummy.Scumhunting is scummy, too?73: Addresses his point against ham as an attempt to kickstart the game
OkMore about Cojin.. though I think this would also be true in Cojin-scum/Raivann-town....In 80, after Az votes for Raiv: Cojin finally speaks
GoodThat is a weird post. I'll give you a point here.88: Raiv paints Cojin in as favorable a light as he possibly can, while also saying "well played, sir".
That's fine by me.more about Cojin.. I am almost sold on a Cojin Lynch from reviewing your Raivann case!!107: Cojin further muddies his position on Raiv. ....
True enough as well. I just view his motivation in this case to be different than fearing the fallout.Except, Cojin is new-ish. New scum often fear mislynch-fallout.112: Raiv goes on to say that if Raiv was townie, Cojin would want to stay on the wagon. This is true in more than one way, so because Cojin hopped off the wagon, he's also scum and doesn't want to lynch his partner.
I literally could not have said it better myself. Extremely well put, and everything is correct. Arelian's last paragraph is exceptionally true, including the recent "no-lynch" suggestion. It has even been brought up this game with Raiv, Camn and I discussing that we would all hammer ourselves if necessary just due to how bad the no-lynch is. While I applaud you (Cojin) for not giving up, you suggesting no-lynch only looks like the last ditch desperate attempt of scum to save themselves.arelian wrote:Cojin, the problem with a no lynch is that losing two people (and essentially confirming the identities of two people) is a lot better of an option then only confirming one through the night kill. We can then examine relationships of the confirmed players to the non confirmed ones and see what we can draw from it. Also, at least this way we have a chance of hitting scum. If we were to do a no lynch, then we would have a 0% chance of finding a scum player.
And I don't think there is a lot of WIFOM really. Participating in a lynch isn't necessarily a scummy thing to do. I feel that if you really believe someone is scum, then you vote for them.
The fact that you're arguing for a no lynch really just seems to me to be an attempt to shake everyone off of you at the last second. Amished was right when he said your claim seemed to be mostly fear based compared to camn's and Raivann's. And the fact that you didn't claim doctor or cop makes it much less of a risk to the town as a whole to go on with the lynch and see what is revealed.
I've replaced into a game as scum (and town, and doc, for that matter), but only as scum have I said that my predecessor's actions were scummy. I tried to pass it off as newbie or whatever (much like Scien did) and just play on and be informative while still being "safe" in my analysis. There was just too much of what I did as scum that lined up with what Scien is doing for my taste.Scien wrote:My thoughts on page 1 -
Hamburger's (mine I guess) random vote. I hate random roll votes with a passion. They are a tool for scum to hide behind. I can think of only one reason for a townie to use it, as I have seen it used this way in one of my past games. That reason is to intentionally look scummy in order to draw out the real scum. A risky manuver at best. That being said, now that I am in Hamburger's shoes and have inside information about his alignment, I have honestly no idea what the motives were behind this random vote. Apparently he is protown, however he doesn't seem to have been using the random vote as a scum hunting tool. I don't know what Hamburger was thinking.
Raivann's vote on a Hamburger(me) and Amished team. While I think I would have done the same thing in his shoes (minus the claim that Amished is scum as well) I find it odd that he doesn't explain this as he votes. He votes initially, then over the next 3 posts slowly explains his reasoning. Claiming the random roll is scummy (agree), and that Amished is most likely on a scum team with me the random voter (disagree), and the random roll sounded forced. I've already said why I agree that a random roll is a scum tell, but I don't agree that you can use the claimed result as a clue that that target is scum as well. Seems too far fetched. Yes it is possible for scum to use the random vote to bus. But I don't think the desire would be high enough yet to use such a risky manuver. Also, all RVS votes sound forced. They are all forced, there is no information to go off of yet.
Means that my case against you and Cojin was put together not that badly, and still had you being an unwilling partner to somebody pro-town. That doesn't clear you, but it does eliminate the connection part of my views against you. I've also stated that I viewed you and Cojin both to be individually scummy, so it's not really that much weaker. Especially as other things have come up recently to add to my suspicion of you.Post 137 – Amished – too long to quote
Analysis – Nice chain of events. You set up a pretty good connection here, and it seemed to be the same set up I just read in another game. Also, while I'm not above 60% convinced Cojin is mafia, that convenient string of events is just too coincidental for me to see it as purely coincidental...
