Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

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Hello, replacing for Cyren here. Looking forward to another game. I'm aware that a deadline is looming, so please bear with me while I read this thread. I've glanced at a few pages and noticed some very lengthy posts with which I'll be pleased to read, as it complements my playstyle. I should have a obligatory establishing post up soon with my first thoughts, by tomorrow at the latest.

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But first, I want to hear from

Anticollie

and

Lynch

, who have both been pretty quiet, before putting sideney on L-1.

I replaced yesterday, and it's taken me many hours to wade through this thread, not that I'm unhappy with it. I approve of the posting activity thus far, but it also results in slight confusion of facts here and there, especially with the replacements, so stick with me if I get some minor things incorrect.

Some first impressions as I recall them:

Anticollie:

I've been uncomfortable with Anticollie for a while in my read, since he doesn't offer as much of his thoughts and impressions as many others. While there are benefits to his objectively analytical playstyle, especially given his IC status, I feel that this represses some information from town, and disguises who his targets and suspicions are placed on. It's been a while since he made a meaningful post outlining who he thinks to be scummy, as he usually focuses more on the gameplay aspects instead of the actual game itself. As such, I don't have much of a read on Anticollie from this ambiguous style, but he comes off as more scummy based on existing posts.

Auditor/Raskol:

Auditor's posting style was unusual I agree, but not to the extents of being scummy and as a reason for his scumminess. Yes, it masked some information from properly being conveyed, but I mostly enjoyed his discussion throughout the latter parts of his posting, save for his vote on onion to put him on L-1, because it's

"better to lynch then no lynch"

with time still remaining.

Raskol comes off firing, with votes and foses on onion, sid and now Haylen. His case on Sideney is understandable and his case is well presented. Same too with Haylen, although he's stretching it with some of his points (most prominently his ragging of her lurking). I feel that this broadened focus on many players instead of just one is pretty pro-town. This is less likely for scum to achieve and benefit from rather than continually FoSing one player only. But your belief that lurking = scum is misguided, even if her reactions don't seem as genuine as they should. I'm also a little bit iffy on what you mean by scummy and anti-town and which of these qualities should be eradicated or analysed: they both fall under a shared category, in my opinion. Otherwise, I admire your rational persistence in your attacks. Overall, I get a strong town vibe from both auditor and Raskol.

Echo:

Let's see... I get inconsistent versions of Echo through his posting. It seems as if he tried to establish himself as a player new to mafia concepts in his opening posts ("what's a FOS?"), possibly to permit the playing of the newbie card later on. Yet in recent days, he seems to come off as an intelligent player with knowledge of various phrases and terminology. I interpret his

"are you suggesting something, Cyren? Sounds to me like you're hinting at a role :/ "

as rolefishing, and I don't think a townie would feel the need to point this out to the rest of town/mafia.

Post 112, his list of suspects, seems off to me. It just feels like he's trying to read too much into auditor's posting and trying too hard to find substance which he can use against him, especially the cryptic messages encoded within. Same too with onion. It might just be me, but the whole presentation of point, question, argument, question seems deceptive to me, as if trying to setup a scumhunting facade for the town. Though I do like how he addresses posts numerically and specifically, it makes keeping track that much easier. And for your recent questions, I think the playstyles of both the replacee and replacement should be analysed to account for any possible differences in feel, and from that determine whether the WHOLE character's alignment is one way or another. One being scummy and one being town doesn't strictly negate each other, as other variations and variables must be accounted for.

I'm wary of you and not completely satisfied so far. Yet you've done enough for me not to perceive you as outright suspicious.

Haylen:

I was surprised by what I thought was a noticeable shift in your demeanour and personality as the thread progressed. You come off as jovial and friendly until you attract suspicion from Raskol, whereupon you seem snappy and irritated. I'm not sure if this change in mood is significantly relevant to the game or if it's simply deviating from real life matters, so I won't go into there, I just wanted to point it out.

Post 234 feels off centre for me. And it's not because of any time delays or OMGUS votes or anything, but her whole line of attack. Like Echo, except perhaps more severely, I get the impression that she's trying to find anything that can be used against the players she attacks, such as the poetic analysation of any line by auditor's that can be labelled as scummy. The 'he's hiding away as scum', 'he admits to lying' and 'he's appealing to emotion' are really stretching it: I don't see any of them as valid reasons for a case on auditor/Raskol's suspiciousness. And accusing auditor of subtly rolefishing is ludicrous, especially when Echo had explicitly made a notion of rolefishing. Also, her placement of Anticollie and Echo near the top of her town list clashes with mine own, so I guess I'm in disagreement with most of her points. This includes her accusation of Raskol tunneling on her (ESPECIALLY when she tries to deflect suspicion by mentioning it as a scumtell) as well as her 'tips' on successfully scumhunting and offering it to Raskol to get him off her. I think you've been scummy these last few posts.

onion:

Well. His vote to put my character at L-1 early on the game. I can't say I approve of it, but it isn't AS scummy as what many have portayed it to be. Sure, it's not particularly great for town to have an intent to push or encourage a quicklynch, but I actually do accept this reason that might or might not have been voiced: to stymie some discussion. And it certainly did that, and from what I can see, certainly doesn't hurt as as town, as we are able to see players loosen up and voice their suspicions on this and other matters. His explanation that "town wouldn't hammer" normally is valid theoretically except that it's also much less likely for scum to be hammering as it would certainly draw attention. The novelty he derives from it is questionable too, but, WIFOM or not, this sounds more like bored townie than deceptive scum to me. I really am OK with his L-1 vote, and I don't see why it's been a weighing factor as a reason for his D1 lynch. His subsequent posts check out, more or less, from me: he's been pretty clear in his thought processes and accusations. The only thing I'm wary of is his cool indifference to being a high target for the D1 lynch. I'm still undecided on whether this is more scum-like behaviour in order to deflect attention or town-like behaviour to calmly provide information and posts while he is still alive. I get a neutral read from onion.

Raeil/Nikanor:

No comment on Raeil. Not much to analyse there, although I remember getting a slight feel that he was acting too townie for my liking. For Nikanor, I can't say i'm too impressed with his decision to not read the posts on page 5. The more information gleaned, the better your understanding and reads. But mostly it's a neutral read from you so far. But I do agree with your views that a lurker should be lynched for Day 1 to allow town the capacity to circulate more information in later days.

ric:

To my knowledge, you've been consistent in addressing many issues all around the town, and not just dwelling on specific parts. I feel you've been making a genuine effort to help the town in all aspects. Nothing about you has really alerted me so far, so I have you as pro-town right now.

sideney:

Sid's been throwing me off athroughout this thread. He seems blatantly, laughably scummy with the content and topics of his posts, namely pushing for a quicklynch, so I'm really not sure how to interpret it as. Voting players because they are "near to a lynch" is not thoughtful. Neither is "I don't mind getting lynched" especially when you know if you're a townie or not. These kinds of lines have me feeling Sid as mistaken in his actions, and not necessarily scummy. I think he really does believe a speedlynch of ANYONE will be beneficial for the town in later days, to my disagreement. Like I said, I'm not sure how to read him as anything but slightly scummy. All he has said are things regarding lynching people quickly: onion then Haylen.



To bluntly sum it up, first impressions of the first 10 pages have my scum list as:

Scummiest

Haylen
Anticollie
Echo
sideney
onion
Nikanor
ric
Raskol

Town

Unvote

for now.

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While that may be true, a more complete record of a townie's thoughts usually provide to be more valuable to town than it is to maf, for record-keeping and consistency purposes. Be that as it may, my scum list is certainly not quite as accurate as to my current thoughts as it should be, given that it was purely from what I remembered off the top of my head.

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I guess I'm in disagreement with most of her points

One of the reasons you find me scummy is because you disagree with me? Seriously?

I think I worded it tactlessly. It's not why I find you scummy but it's a reason why I'm uncomfortable with you. They really shouldn't be at the top of the list, more so Anticollie, when he's only been giving game hints so far and not his thoughts for a while.

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If we're pushing the deadline, I would advise a policy lynch on lurkers or those who don't contribute as much. And for me, those options are sideney and Anticollie.

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to the people not voting i have a couple questions

what hasnt been compelling enough to vote yet in this first day? do you think a no-lynch is a good move? why or why not? how would you like to see the rest of the day go?

1) The fact that I think both the targets for today's lynch are more likely to be town-aligned than maf (sideney and onion).
2) No
3) Information lynch and for the fact town always should lynch on odd numbers.
4) With a lynch of course. I'm willing to hammer sideney if needed though.

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I'm here. But I still haven't got a claim out of him.

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God Bless you.

Vote: sideney

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You've already been executed. But obviously if you were to claim a PR, the D1 lynch would be off your back. Your last minute opinions are noted though.

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Um. Okay. I thought he was supicious too. Briefly discussing the night kill, I think the mafia chose Anticollie/Adel for the semi-lurking: Could've been a doctor or cop tell. Which leads me to believe we're in a 2 goons setup, if I may speculate wildly.

And I'm not at all surprised at sideney flipping town. I'm aware that I hammered, but I was not aware that apparently we still had half a day or so until the deadline would have arrived (or so somebody said earlier).

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Um. Okay. I thought he was supicious too. Briefly discussing the night kill, I think the mafia chose Anticollie/Adel for the semi-lurking: Could've been a doctor or cop tell. Which leads me to believe we're in a 2 goons setup, if I may speculate wildly.

Even if you're right, how would this help us know who the scum are? I don't mind if people speculate on reasons for the NK, but unless they're reasons that help us narrow down the suspect list, it's worse than useless.

It can give us insight into the tendencies and temperament of scum: whether they want to target PRs or try to eliminate competition or competent players. However, I think there's more strategic significance in NKing Anticollie than what I first thought. Particularly to cast suspicion on onion even more, judging by their interactions in D1.

Which is why I don't think onion is mafia at the moment. Sure, the kill could have been WIFOM and all, and I don't dispute that, but for now, I suggest we expand our horizons and consider the bulk of other players, before we all tunnel on onion.

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By tunneling on onion, I mean to pre-empt any attacks on onion carrying through from D1, since I feel he may be a scapegoat for the D2 lynch. This might seem overly defensive at the moment, but I'm pretty sure onion will still attract some heat from the others when the day gets rolling.

Raskol: What makes you think it's onion still? You point out that you have raised suspicions against him, but it'd be more accessible and easier to judge if you could briefly outline these reasons again, today. Because from what I can recall, I (possibly mistakenly) think that these suspicions are all derived from his L-1 vote early in the game.

And I agree that we need not to be convinced of our guesses based on the night kill, but nevertheless it should still be voiced to evaluate its merits and any possible truths that could be gained from it.

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First

of all: there are things I hate more than repeating myself unnecessarily, but not many. All my posts still exist, go back and read them. If you have any specific questions about things I've said, holes to poke in my posts, or anything like that, then out with them. But I'm not going to go back and rewrite everything just because you can't be bothered to go back and read.

Okay. The reason why I asked you to bring forward a case on onion is because I felt your original sentiments were lacking. You give the two main reasons for onion-scum as placing the L-1 vote and him labelling cross-voting as scummy. You also say that he's anti-town and not at all helpful, and that's why your vote's on him.

To repeat myself again, I don't think the L-1 vote was scummy or pro-town. Probably null for me, it's got good and bad outcomes. Also, the fact that he thinks early cross-voting is scummy is not grounds for the suspicion you've placed on him either. And for the record, I don't think he's anti-town: he's at least contributing to discussion and posting regularly.

Second

: I'm not at all sure why you would want to pre-empt attacks on onion carrying through from D1. Do you think people should get a clean slate for no other reason than that a night has passed? You say you think he may be a scapegoat for the D2 lynch, but you don't give any good reasons why. You say you seem pretty sure onion will attract some heat from others once the day gets rolling, but there's no sign of that happening. I voted for him and I made a post. Besides that, there's been nothing else from anyone but me---and the other people who had voted for him yesterday are dead now, so scratch any involvement from them.

Simply put, all of the players here have voiced concern over onion. You don't think these arguments will be re-visited today? The fact that he won't get a clean slate is my exact concern: it's why onion-town will be a prime target today, for reasons that I don't feel are strong enough. Reasons for scapegoat are that he remains at the top of many scum lists from yesterday and the night kill choice (which is so WIFOMy that I won't go into here again). Nobody has posted their detailed, establishing thoughts yet, bar you, so yes, the day is still young and I envisage/envisaged onion as the target today. Feel free to ask me to expand on why I think this, but it should be blatant, judging by the amount of attention that was focused on him yesterday.

All that being the case, I don't think the level of concern you're showing is merited. I could understand if he was close to being quicklynched, but there's no good reason to jump in as quick as you just did to his rescue---well, no good townie reason anyway. Why would you want to stop scumhunting from happening? Now, on the other hand, if you have some actual reason why you think he's innocent, then by all means share. Otherwise.....

The level of concern? Unless you've misunderstood, it's what I deem to be at a minimal level. I've suggested to town not to tunnel, and expressed my thoughts on what I think may happen to onion today. It's not as if I'm defending him tooth and nail like you portray me to be. If posting my opinions of onion and asking town to expand our scope is 'jumping in to his rescue' and 'preventing scumhunting', I'm afraid you've misinterpreted.

Lastly

: If you insist on bringing the nightkill into this, then fine. I'll discuss it with you. Here's why I think your guess on it is a bad one, all things considered.

I see what you mean. Yes, the NK can go either way, that's the beauty of WIFOM. I won't retort to this, for the sake of saving us multiple posts uselessly dedicated to WIFOM.

______

So really, my only qualm at the moment is your, from what I perceive, tunneling on onion. This is obviously not good for town, even if onion is scum. This might just be an aggressive stance to extract information from him, so I'm not going to discourage it without knowing your intentions. However, I had asked you to expand on your case on onion because I thought your argument was insufficient from what I've read from D1. Or maybe I've just skipped some of your points - going to re-read again.

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Lynch hammered early thus removing my ability to post before the lynch. this brings a tad bit of suspicion on him, which i feel is justified for the situation.

I hammered because Nikanor implied the deadline was within a few hours at that time. And also since both Haylen and sideney were there, if any time was a good time to hammer, it was then. I disagree with you on how it's suspicious, discussion was going nowhere anyway, and sideney remained anti-town and unhelpful.

Still awaiting for a real post to be made by Echo and Haylen.

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Sorry, been busy outside the internet. Will try to get a good post in now.

Is it just me, or were the last few posts blatantly buddying-like?

Not at all. Certainly no strategic worth within the previous banter.

- Says he though both targets were town, and then says Onion should have been voted off yesterday (who he said he thought was town)

No, this completely misrepresented my position. I would have much preferred a lynch of sideney over onion, due to the latter's more pronounced contribution to discussion. I've never expressed a willingness to let onion be lynched, and indeed if I had the time or opportunity to, I would have tried to push for a day 1 lynch of Anticollie or Haylen instead. I find active lurking (mostly of Anticollie) to be much scummier than the detached lurking sideney exhibited.

- Advocates policy lynches. Not only is insisting on a policy lynch scummy, but it is also poor form.

I disagree again. Not at all scummy in my view, because, like you've said previously, it's a subjective issue that has differing opinions and judgements of. You contradict yourself trying to raise points against me. Please also note that I advised a policy lynch of lurkers because the deadline was nearing and the votes were more or less in the early stages, if i recall correctly. Nevertheless, your point of replacing lurkers instead of lynching is valid, but we wouldn't have had enough time to and I doubt the mod would be able to force a player to adapt his own playstyle.

- I'm apparently on top of his scummy list, when he has a better case on Echo, and his case on Echo is better than his case on Anticollie. Yet Echo is only 3rd on his scum list. Bussing?

That 'scummy list' was formulated in the early stages of my introduction to the thread. It merely serves as a first impressions list, and so the details may be inconsistent or hazy here and there (which I probably had already forewarned). Cases that I bring forward have nothing to do with the list anyway.

- Says he was tunneling Onion. Bullcrap was he, and anyway, i thought he thought Onion was town? Also says that he's asked the town not to tunnel. That's a slip right there.

Misrepresentation again. I was warning Raskol not to tunnel on onion (which I'll admit wasn't truthfully appropriate for that time), and not myself. I do maintain that onion is pro-town, and don't see how advising town on the D2 lynch is a slip.



Props to Echo for starting some discussion regarding the meta of lurking.

However, I didn't like Nikanor's immediate vote on Echo for blatant misrepresentation. Sure, he acknowledged his error in the vote, but I feel the reasons surrounding it aren't satisfiable, especially when he tries to justify it by "eliciting a townie reaction from Echo". The vote-unvote had me thinking of distancing initially, especially when he regards Echo's response as a townie response. But I find this pairing unlikely anyway. Most of what pings my radar was just the inconsistency in Nikanor's perspective, with the vote-hopping for little to no apparent reasons.


Again, Haylen, I find it necessary to call for a policy lynch all lurkers at the context of when it was spoken: deadline nearing and discussion stalling. In fact, like Raskol, I'm of the belief that policy lynches for ACCEPTABLE matters (lurking/lying) usually benefit the town in the long-run. And hey, might even get a scum or two included as well.

i support his hammer because a no-lynch would still have been less useful.

i don't think Lynch is without suspicion, because he hammered and is sort of answering questions for me when he should not

Inconsistency there, regarding my placement of the hammer vote. Do you find the hammer vote suspicious because it brought town blood, or because you thought it was premature, or for reasons that you can outline to me soon? Also, it's hypocritical when you address all of Haylen's points of suspicion of me while I'm away, while you find my "defending" of you suspicious.



Primary fos at the moment goes to Nikanor, for inconsistency and what I think to be inputting on irrelevant issues, and avoiding the main game.

Vote: Nikanor

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Lynch, your hammer warrants suspicion because it was placed at a point in time that negated my ability to chime in on the vote. if you hammered an hour before the deadline, then you'd be fine. but someone just might have thought of something over american explosion day and hammering early would be a way to prevent them from sharing. this suspicion is not large though and you seem to be reacting to it with more effort than warranted. short: it's good that someone hammered, but you hammered a few hours too early, and being confused is a wifom excuse.

How would I know you were anticipating and preparing a post on the situation? Timezones and such distorted my awareness of the deadline time, and upon being egged by both Nikanor and sideney himself, I thought it was necessary or wise to hammer then and there. It seems like you're making such a big deal for such a minor thing, especially when Nikanor had already admitted he thought the deadline was closer than it actually was.

And you say Nikanor is your main suspect now? What happened to Raskol and Haylen? How do you feel about them now?

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Welcome Erik. Would like to hear from you, but also from Nikanor and Echo, who I feel haven't posted much game-related information in recent time.