Newbie 803 - Game Over.

[Vino]

No problem. Hello everybody. I've got to read 24 pages now, here I go.

[Vino]

O dam how did I end up in another game with Honcho? (AKA adding to my watch list.)

[Vino]

Okay so here's a read and commentary as I read through the game:

I like VP Baltar's early play even if I don't pick up on his view of Clara.

I'm glad Santos isn't playing anymore. So many things he said were scummy (I'm only on page 5 mind you, he hasn't been lynched yet) and already he looks like the scum. 124 looks like a slip. If he didn't flip townie I'd have sworn up and down that he's scum.

I think Ein's frustration and then renewed interest in the game speaks pretty townly of him, even if it probably wasn't intentional. I think I believe 145. In retrospect, this makes Porkens look bad in my eyes for tunneling on him so early in the game.

When I was Lupo I was also on a quest to save the world and frankly it took first priority.

Something always tickles me about your sense of humor. Maybe it's because I don't have one.

Porkensvane. (The Porkens weathervane.)

Second instance of "Don't blame me, I'm a newbie!" from Clara

Chi reads town, largely for this post.

Oh wait I replaced Chi, so that's pretty useless isn't it.

Up to page 18 and the beginning of D2. I see a bit of a rift opening between Honcho and Chi, who I am replacing. I can't really say I see the same case against Honcho that Chi saw against him. It seems more like a premeditated OMGUS to me, rationalizing another player as town because they are attacking him, which I've seen Chi do before. On the other hand though I think Honcho's case against Chi was a bit of a stretch too, which mostly circumstantial evidence.

What I am noticing that is odd about Honcho is his verbosity. He certainly isn't this vocal in another game I'm in with him. I'm trying to figure out what it says about his role. What are your thoughts on this topic Honcho? (Obviously don't comment on that game as it is still in progress -- only this one.)

I really don't like this post. Especially from an IC. It reeks of WIFOM and scumminess, but I wouldn't expect an IC to act so blatantly scummy, especially in a newbie game. Since I don't get it, I don't like it.

Okay so he's a cop and that confirms my vague suspicions. You know Porkins, there are ways to behave as a cop that don't involve looking ridiculously scummy.

1) Porkens replaced into Sensfan's role. In newbie setups, Sensfan frequently likes to claim cop as scum in lylo (he's done this in a game I've been in with him. More importantly, he's done this in a game Santos has been in with him) and I can see him not wanting to deal with defending an actual cop claim with that kind of meta working against him.

This is the worst kind of meta. (Worst in the sense that it is reaching, not in the sense that it is scummy to use.) You're trying to apply motives to SensFan. I think he just didn't want to be in any other games with Santos.

READ OVER!

Now my analysis. We are at RB/Doc/Cop or Cop only if Porkens is telling the truth, or we are at Doc only or RB only if Porkens is lying. Either way, unless the real cop is in hiding, scum now know what the setup is. I like laying them out all in a row so I can see them.

---

Possibility 1:

Porkens cop, Hidden doc, Scum with RB.

Tonight, Porkens gets protected but also roleblocked, or I die and Porkens gets roleblocked, or Porkens dies because the doc protects me, or doc protects me and Porkens lives but probably also gets roleblocked.

---

Possibility 2:

Porkens cop, no doc, Scum with no RB.

Tonight, me or Porkens dies.

---

Possibility 3:

Porkens scum, real cop or doc hidden or nonexistant.

Tonight someone other than Porkens dies.

---

Personally I'm inclined to give him a chance. His story is consistent. Consistency is more important than scumminess in this case, and so far he hasn't said anything inconsistent, except for one thing: Porkens, if you don't like Ein so much then why did you investigate Chi last night and not Ein? How do you explain your tunneling and weathervane actions on D1?

In the meantime, I am going to refrain from voting until I can go back and re-read Hurley, jammer, and Cathart, who are my remaining scum suspects. Einlanzers and Honcho I think are town, or very well-played scum. I'd rather avoid lynching Porkens tonight because we can gain information from Mafia's choice of NK. If there is a real cop then Porkens is soon toast anyway.

Lastly I sense a slowdown in the game's momentum lately, so everybody

POST MORE!!!

[Vino]

oh my god anyone but vino

Haha! I feel the <3. I didn't realize you were in this game when Zorblag was looking for a replacement.

Ein, it's not any particular post. His behavior at the end of day one spoke pretty townly to me. I don't see any scum motivation for pulling back from the Santos lynch. Also I see a lot of scum hunting from him. Also happy birthday.

Concerning Porkens, he looked pretty scummy near the beginning of the game, and his play can still be interpreted as scummy, but none of it (latest explanation notwithstanding) is inconsistent with the explanation that he is also a cop. I don't think he

must

be town, but I do think that he has a good chance of being our real cop, and that it would be a wrong move to lynch him D2.

Porkens, other than an appeal to emotion and newbie defenses I don't see much of a case against Ein from you in D1. Also you said you believed his claim (twice). Now you say it was redundant to investigate Ein because he is obvscum, but from my read it looks like at that time you thought he was obvtown. What's the deal?

Honcho I think I asked a question of you, if you please

[Vino]

Vino,
You don't think Porkens vote on me seems scummy? If it isn't scummy is it personal? Short-sighted? What?

Well...

Einlanzers

: votes for jammer even after

extensive pro-town behavior (this was the root of

my origional vote on Lazers). Reacts extremely

defensive and OMGUS -ly to Jammer's attack, but

says nothing about Clara's vote.

Continuous Appeals to emotion. Bizzare vote on

jonnydelawelsh.

...

unvote, vote Lazerz

Other than the fact that he can't seem to get your name right I don't see anything particularly personal or scummy about that. I might actually agree with him on the OMGUS point. I don't see as much of a case against you as he does though. Maybe you see something that I don't?

[Vino]

Honcho is right and I would much prefer just about anybody but Porkins get lynched today. Not that I don't think he still may be scum, but that I'm not willing to take the chance that he is a cop. If there is a doc he is the second least person I want to lynch, and anybody else is good game. HV hasn't been the shiniest example of good townsmanship and I don't have time to do a re-read, argue with you guys, and then vote someone, so I'll just skip to voting someone. Sorry Van Man.

Vote: Hurleys_Van

[Vino]

<IC time>I don't disagree, but by saying all that stuff you just admitted that you're not the doc. You have to be careful the way you phrase stuff like this because you've effectively just claimed vanilla townie. That gives scum more clues in their doc-hunting, if that's what they're trying to do.

The other thing is that directing the doc makes them more predictable to scum. In fact, since just about anybody can do it, nothing keeps scum from directing the doc, and thus telling the doc what they want him to do. As a doc it's generally a bad idea to listen to any directing.</IC time>

[Vino]

So Porkens' story was true. That means I'm a confirmed townie. *dance*

Honcho, I know it doesn't matter now, but I still think that directing the doc is a bad idea. Scum get a night kill, and if the doc becomes predictable then it makes it easier to make a correct NK without doc interference.

Anyway, we now have two possibilities. Mafia with RB and doc, or no doc and no RB. The way I see it, either are equally viable.

So the question of the hour is, who is the most likely partner of the late Hurleys_Van?

[Vino]

The doc doesn't have to listen, so it's still as much of a guessing game as ever

How's the cop any different?

[Vino]

Quiet you, you're interrupting our

argume

-- discussion.

I'll have to do a re-read before I can really determine who I think is the best HV partner. That will come eventually.

[Vino]

Speaking of lynches, I am glad you guys managed to get ahold of a scum and go through with the lynch and rather quickly in fact:

List of Votes for HV

Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:38 pm - Col.Cathart
Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:25 am - Head_Honcho
Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:12 am - Porkens
Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:26 am - Vino

Now I have 2 theories about this:
#1) Remaining scum stayed away from the wagon. Jammer or myself.
#2) Scum bussed on the wagon to draw suspicion away from themselves.

I'm really thinking it's #2, but it is possible for Jammer to be scum aswell. For #2 to be possible we have to exclude Porkens and Vino. That leaves Col. Cathart and Head_Honcho. I thought Col. Cathart started that wagon with a good post (and what scum would START a wagon against their ally?):

...

Head_Honcho's was a bit lacking (see first quote above ^^).
So my list right now signs of:
1) Head_Honcho
2) jammer

Well I WAS going to agree with #1. Cathart was suspect because of Clara's play, but his later play has been better so I was willing to forgive it due to newbieness on her part. You seemed pretty town in your claim post and afterwards and so I was leaning away from you. My re-read had me leaning towards jammer due to sketchiness between him and HV, but that was before I read this post.

Honcho not only has been hugely active this game (unusual for his meta) but he called for me to place the hammer on Hurley, his accused "scum buddy" according to you. I would say he was instrumental in getting HV lynched. So, this attempt to frame Honcho as the scum when the facts don't look anything like that are quite odd. Seems like a gross misrepresentation to me.

I just don't see Honcho's behavior as consistent with bussing, unless he was SOOO confident that he could last three days without being lynched that he thought it was okay to get his buddy killed.

[Vino]

Well I was going to wait and see what other players thought of Ein's latest post, but that was 36 hours ago and nobody else seems to have any opinions so I will opine.

I don't know how I missed that post. Thanks for pointing that out. That post does make him very much so less suspicious.

This was hard to believe. That you wouldn't even argue with me at all or question my logic threw up a red flag.

Ein's already claimed town, and LyLo is not until tomorrow, so I'm okay for lynching Ein, but I want to hear from jammer specifically before I vote.

[Vino]

*poke jammer*

[Vino]

@Vino, could you describe what "sketchiness" you meant between me and HV?

Some perceived possible strangeness in the way you two talked to each other. No matter though, we'll discuss it tomorrow. Looks like everybody agrees that Ein is a good lynch, so I see no reason not to

Vote: Einlanzers

since he's already claimed townie.

[Vino]

Mmmmk.

Unvote

[Vino]

And Ein, if there is no doctor then I'm going to get NK'd anyway. Any way you put it, if you're not the scum then there are going to be 2 town and 1 scum tomorrow, but that's better odds than 4 town and 1 scum today. I've won games as town in that position before. It's nothing personal Ein.

Although, it occurs to me... perhaps we should all claim first? Knowing whether or not there is a doctor would be pretty helpful to town in D4, and prevent scum from claiming doc with 3 people alive.

[Vino]

Well that was only a "maybe" but okay. I'll wait until after jammer.

[Vino]

So we got no docs and therefore no RB. Okay, so that means I die tonight. However it also means that scum knew there was no doc, but killed Porkens anyway, I don't know how useful that information is. What's more useful is the knowledge that scum knew there was only one town PR. I'll bet you both scum were in on the Porkens train.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 48#1766948

Vote Count 2.4

...

Porkens: 3: Hurleys_Van (3), Einlanzers (5), jammer (7)
jammer: 1: Porkens (8)

Not voting: Chiarosicada, Col.Cathart, Head_Honcho

At this point Porkens was a claimed cop, so I doubt that any of the unvoting people were scum. I suspected this to be the case, this is one of the main reasons I was looking at jammer and not Cathart. I say we lynch Ein today and jammer tomorrow, and between the two of them town has a guaranteed victory at this point.

jammer seems to have more he wants to say, so I'll wait before I recast my vote.

[Vino]

My condolences.

Vote: Einlanzers

Maybe he did sit on a cop wagon too long. Doesn't mean he's not mafia. I don't think it's not fitting with his play style.

[Vino]

What I meant was, I wouldn't put it past you to do that kind of thing in that situation, in fitting with your general behavior and personality from what I perceive.

Yeah.

[Vino]

Well it appears that with Cathart gone, it's up to jammer to hammer.

[Vino]

Awwww I was looking forward to the jammer hammer because I like rhyming.

[Vino]

Told you it was jammer.

[Vino]

When I entered the watched topics, and saw 'game over', my thought was 'DAMN IT! So Honcho IS a scum after all!'

Are you kidding? Honcho shone like the sun in this game. I've never seen him be more pro-town. The decision should have been easy for you.

[Vino]

All's well that ends well