Newbie #851 (Game Over!)

[mykonian]

hello everyone. I am your IC today, and I hope we are here to have some fun. And catch mafia of course. Well, that is easy, I already found then

vote Pierre

[mykonian]

o, yes, before I forget: it would be appreciated if you didn't claim too early, unless you are mafia Townie claims are usually not helping the town, but are helping the mafia.

[mykonian]

hello everyone. I am your IC today, and I hope we are here to have some fun. And catch mafia of course. Well, that is easy, I already found then

vote Pierre

Ah, this is the guy that you should look to if you're having some troubles grasping the game. (That's the game, mind you, not actual play. There's a fine distinction.) Also, Spinach and I are SE's, which means we've played a couple of games enough to kinda explain the odd bit of game theory, strategy, or mechanics. That said, take everything with a grain of salt in Mafia, even veterans can be wrong.

and I thought I was always right anyway, just to avoid confusion: I won't lie about the game. Everything I say gamewise (theory, etc) will be honest. Further, I am just a normal player, and probably not much better then you are. So I am not here to find the scum for you

[mykonian]

o, yes, before I forget: it would be appreciated if you didn't claim too early, unless you are mafia Townie claims are usually not helping the town, but are helping the mafia.

I guess I should hold off on the vanilla townie claim then, eh?

yes, since your role is one thing town has against the mafia. The mafia doesn't know where what roles are, and any information in that direction helps them.

[mykonian]

[quote="AntiSemantic]
@Pierre: Vanilla townie is not really a role claim. These games start with a bunch of townies living their lives, until people start dying. Everyone is innocent until we have a reason to think otherwise. Circles I'm used to, that's the base assumption. I meant it sarcastically, but to be clearer I'll use more smilies next time.

[/quote]

k. Vanilla is a claim here. Fakeclaiming as town is usually frowned upon, please don't do it, so a vanilla claim would mean that you aren't a powerrole. Good for you, but that increases the chance that mafia nightkills a powerrole, and that is not that good for you. Because of that, please refrain from claiming early.

The "anyone is innocent until proven otherwise" is a way to look at the game, but know that you should be looking for bad guys. Other players might use other assumptions.

unvote vote porkchop

it is not a weird way to look at the game, and should be respected anyway.

[mykonian]

good news: we made page two.

further, some activity would be great. Post what you think about the fact that AS has 3 votes already, and Porkchops arguments.

[mykonian]

sorry guys, how much I want to be the action bringing guy, I just couldn't do that this weekend. And neither can I now. School is a little bit in the way, but don't worry, it will only be for a short time.

[mykonian]

to the people we haven't heard a lot from: in this game you are supposed to be looking for mafia. However, you will never find there is no action in the game. So you have to investigate, to catch them. Sitting and waiting what the others do for you, and trying to catch scum then, while lurking, is scummy. Since scum would do that: waiting for someone to slip up, and then mislynch him.

So

FoS alvarian, and stands2reason

[mykonian]

yes, things like that happen. You can read things wrong. But there will also be people who do that on purpose, just to make a case on you that way. In general, it is best to be as clear as possible. It doesn't give others the excuse to do that.

What is your opinion on it?

[mykonian]

I have a small dislike for contradictions that are spotted, really when they aren't game related:

unvote vote spinach

further, guys who don't yet have one, a avatar would be appreciated. It makes games a lot easier to read.

[mykonian]

sorry guys, have some trouble to get into the game. Saturday´s are always a mess for me, but tomorrow I am going to try

On this moment, I have trouble to see who is accusing who of what, that will be better tomorrow.

[mykonian]

o, yes, before I forget: it would be appreciated if you didn't claim too early, unless you are mafia Townie claims are usually not helping the town, but are helping the mafia.

I guess I should hold off on the vanilla townie claim then, eh?

Unvote: Alviaran, Vote: AntiSemantic

Misleading role claim? Then again, if someone will jump a bandwagon suddenly, this much into the game; I'll put on my FoS. It could be activity limits, but then it's still RvS.

I like this post very much, and am a bit worried about AS: the implied claim does nothing then to show he is town: townies don't want to look town, they want to find scum. Scum tries to look town. Conclusion: a scummy move from AS


The vote from PE, for AS´s view on the game (everybody is town till proven otherwise), is weird. Don't really know what to think of it.

On the topic of make vanilla townie "claim", it wasn't really such. Since plain townie is the baseline role -- statistically, even if you don't agree with my storyline/philosophical explanations -- and given how little information we have ONE post into the game,

I meant it to be interpreted as a facetious statement along the lines of "I'm innocent and uninteresting"

, which is what everyone is, IMO, implicitly claiming in the initial portion of a basic game.

You can interpret and over-analyze it as you will. I can't stop you, that's what mafia is about. But I did not intend it as a formal claim, and it shouldn't be taken as such.

this is as close as it gets to a scumclaim. Again, townies usually don't care about being innocent or uninteresting. They want to find scum, which doesn't seem AS's primary focus.

Seriously, taking a quote out of context and semi-bandwagoning with a single word? I hate making retaliation votes, but this kinda calls for it.

In AS' response we have:

1) Misrepresentation. How exactly did I take you out of context? How is the rest of the post even relevant to what is being discussed?

Here's the extended quote:

@Pierre: Vanilla townie is not really a role claim. These games start with a bunch of townies living their lives, until people start dying. Everyone is innocent until we have a reason to think otherwise. Circles I'm used to, that's the base assumption. I meant it sarcastically, but to be clearer I'll use more smilies next time.

Here's the whole post.Nothing has been taken out of context, you've made a seemingly standalone statement (sibilance!) about Mafia, that I do not agree with and piqued my curiosity. You've tried (poorly) to make that seem scummy.

2) Being against "Semi-bandwagoning" while "Semi-bandwagoning" himself.

3) The preemptive defence against an OMGUS claim.

I'm getting some mild sensations in my scumdar here, AS hasn't responded well to pressure.

point 1, PE is completely right. Seems like a very weak defence, to make it able to hop on the wagon, where point 3 comes in. The "I hate to make retalliation votes". Again, townies don't care. If the other is scum, and you can make that likely for the rest, you vote him.

Alviarians tribute to the game, in his first 2 posts, are ehh, weak.

On the topic of make vanilla townie "claim", it wasn't really such. Since plain townie is the baseline role -- statistically, even if you don't agree with my storyline/philosophical explanations -- and given how little information we have ONE post into the game, I meant it to be interpreted as a facetious statement along the lines of "I'm innocent and uninteresting", which is what everyone is, IMO, implicitly claiming in the initial portion of a basic game.

I think either AntiSemantic or PorkchopExpress is scum. I'd lean towards PE, I don't like his accusatory tone.

vote: PorkchopExpress

IGMEOY (I got my eye on you) This is scummy reasoning, getting on the bandwagon, and you could easily be AS's scumbuddy. The I'd lean to... stuff should be argued. Why do you think so, etc.

Hey guys I'm your other Semi-Experienced player replacing in for david-villa-7.

After a read of the game to this point I see a LOT of pointless arguing over semantics and a lot of swayed voting based off of one persons comment..which is normal in a game with new players, but just a word of caution: Do not do this later in the game. It makes you look very scummy, and distracts from the real scum (unless, of course, you are scum).

I'm not getting a town or a scum read from anyone so far. Everyone is neutral-ish as-of-now.

Things I don't like (AKA find scummy):
1) AntiSemantic's "vanilla town claim" joke in p14.
2) PorkchopExpress's vote without reason (even a joking one) in p22
3) Silly arguing between PCE and AS all over the place.
4) stands2reasons's unvote after an explanation of L-1 and an unvote from Spinach in p38

This is coming into the game! good post.

4) stands2reasons's unvote after an explanation of L-1

I was told that we didn't have enough to go on, that it wasn't a good idea this close to a lynch. You think I should reinstate it?

and someone cares a little more about pleasing the other players then finding scum... Scummy.

So to sum it up...I wasn't saying they were scummy...just that it is something I dislike.

Things I don't like (AKA find scummy):

1) AntiSemantic's "vanilla town claim" joke in p14.
2) PorkchopExpress's vote without reason (even a joking one) in p22

3) Silly arguing between PCE and AS all over the place.

4) stands2reasons's unvote after an explanation of L-1 and an unvote from Spinach in p38

Things I do like:

How silly you all are arguing over food tastes.

So let me get this straight:
You say that the PCE/AS 'silly' arguing it's not scummy, just something you dislike, but you've clearly stated that you found it scummy.
You find 'silly' arguing between PCE and AS bad, yet you say silly arguing over foods isn't.

FoS: Einlanzers

I think I spot a contradiction.

I think you shouldn't be trying to spot this, since there is no scum motive to make this contradiction, so it is probably just a miscommunication because of his bad wording or your bad reading. I would try to avoid it.

stands, I think you should vote as you want to vote, but you need to realize that your vote can have repercussions. If someone would have hammered Porkchop and he would have turned up to be town then you would have had a hand in that.

However, Spinach already took away that possibility by unvoting putting him back at L-2, so 2 people would have had to vote to lynch him. You unvoting doesn't really matter. You just put him at L-3. So if you DO think that he is scum you should vote for him, but DO NOT put someone at L-1 unless you are SURE of it.

That being said I give Spinach +1 town point for prevention of early hammer.

OK then. I still think he's kinda suspcious, so

vote: PE

sorry, but you have done little but voting and unvoting, and again, this vote is not good.

unvote vote stands2reason

you guys need to comment on Pierre more. So far people have just been "nice case! But I don't agree fully, but I'm not going to explain and ignore you" or have been "welcome to the game! Nice post! Now I'm going to ignore you"

More Pierre discussion please

Why are you so apt to go after him? I haven't seen much that has screamed "scum!" to me, so what makes you think he is?

that is how we want to see it Alviaran! This is a good way to start. Only comment on more posts, and show your opinions better and you'll be fine.

Still, nothing smells fishy. So

unvote

for now, a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help. But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits.

OR

We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

stands, I think you should vote as you want to vote, but you need to realize that your vote can have repercussions. If someone would have hammered Porkchop and he would have turned up to be town then you would have had a hand in that.

However, Spinach already took away that possibility by unvoting putting him back at L-2, so 2 people would have had to vote to lynch him. You unvoting doesn't really matter. You just put him at L-3. So if you DO think that he is scum you should vote for him, but DO NOT put someone at L-1 unless you are SURE of it.

That being said I give Spinach +1 town point for prevention of early hammer.

OK then. I still think he's kinda suspcious, so

vote: PE

what AS said: please be a little more convinced in your reasoning. Sure, you might think you are completely honest here, but the cop thing is overdoing it. Further, as scum, this would be a way to vote, but have the possibility to unvote again, when you want to. Still, I like how you play. Keep it up.


I think swimmers one dimensial play is not the way for a towny to play. Tunneling on one person, generally makes you miss all the others. Further, it is not weird for newbies not knowing how to defend properly, and in general, it is almost impossible to defend if someone runnels on you. It gives more mislynches then necesary. From my point of view, Pierre has shown the intention, right from the start of the game with AS, to find scum, and give arguments, I think he was the first to do so, and he did it in the right way. IMO, one of the towniest guy's we have. I disagree with a Pierre lynch.

[mykonian]

scumlist:

S2R
AS
Swimmer
PE

[mykonian]

I think you missed AS, as you have only 8 players

[mykonian]

mykonian what is your opinion of this post by Pierre:

I hereby do stand quite well behind my previous vote for AntiSemantic. It looks like he/she (?) is trying to mislead us and give quite a lot of reasons, JUST at Semi-RvS. By the way, is it frowned upon to start a bandwagon, even if you do have some pretty good reasons, and I am not trying right now to start one mind you.

What are you trying to do then, exactly?

Noticed this now, what I am trying to do is give a point. Something simply to consider and take in mind for later, if it does result in a case where AS needs some sort of proof.

But now, your turning me the other way right now. That post in itself sounded awkward. You've just tried to buckle someone trying to help under pressure, though you were initially arguing with AntiSemantic in the first place.

It's still RVS but I'm putting the

FOS: PorkChopExpress

right now, but hey, this is still just a reply to your post.

First impression was a towny that feels he is manipulated. A bit paranoid, tbh. Not great play, but certainly towny, since scum wouldn't be so paranoid.

[mykonian]

game theory: we want a scumlynch.

Well I needed time posting that : )

Just a bad post. I also give reasons as to why he may not be scum to add information. Sometimes, you have to look at the picture two ways.

Yes, but you do not decide to lynch someone JUST to get information. We want to AVOID a mislynch if possible.

We just have to come to terms that we are likely to mislynch and to realize that a mislynch is still better for us than a no lynch.

You're quickness to lynch someone for information tells me you are scummy and are trying to get us to lynch one of our own.

I have trouble to see what the connection between quote and post is. Pierre shows in the first why he also told the possible town explanations, to give every information he got. In the post he gets accused of trying to mislynch. This doesn't follow. Sure,

if he wanted a mislynch

it would be sure scum. However, never said that, and this is as close as you get to a strawman. (bolded is the implied accusation of wanting a mislynch,).

On the last part: pierre was actually hitting the brakes by also telling why we should not lynch him, so we could think about it. Alviaran certainly doesn't look good here, and I would very much like to hear why he thought it necesary to attack pierre by saying he actually wanted a mislynch.

[mykonian]

alv: edits are not possible by players, and the mod won't do it unless the game itself is in danger. So that is no way out for you. Please get me a quote, hard evidence, where he actually said he wanted a mislynch. Since you confirmed in the last post that was actually what he said.

[mykonian]

wait, einlanzers, that quote of pierre was after alv's post. I would like to hear from him where he got the idea from that pierre wants a mislynch.

[mykonian]

and yeah, we disagree about s2r and pierre. I think pierre doesn't defend will, you call it scummy, I think s2r lurks, you see a newby in it

anyway, my other target, AS, where is he?

[mykonian]

OK.

@swimmer: paranoid people don't know what is going on, scum does know. That is the reasoning. So scum would never be paranoid if someone tries to convince them.

AS has a great point pierre. That post doesn't help you a bit, and if you want to win, be it before or after your death, you want to hunt for scum.

[mykonian]

Alv! I still get something from you about that thing you constructed against Pierre.

where did he say he wanted a mislynch!

Even the above post doesn't bring anything new, but basically says: lynch Pierre.

Please explain to me why you aren't scum that first made a big lie that had to be an accusation against pierre, and are now enjoying how the town seems to go to it's first mislynch.

(and since I have been in trouble for accusations like this: I don't know it will be a mislynch, I assume alv is scum, and then it follows.[/disclaimer])

[mykonian]

Finally guys, you are looking at other players again. I really have to warn you for tunnenvision. In this game, you can believe someone to be scum, and you will see more and more prove of that. While you still might be wrong.

I don't know if I am right with pierre, or not, but I believe S2R to be more obviously scummy, and Alv still can't explain why he had to fake a case on Pierre, something that is as antitown as it gets. We have had quite some posts about pierre now, it is also a good idea to see what people said: this is the first serious thing that happened in this game, and people did show how they play, and possibly if they are scum.

[mykonian]

C) disagree with the lynch, and doesn't want this game to run away. Some calmth is good, see previous post. I think I have achieved what I wanted. I disagree with his lynch, since I couldn't see his actions as done by scum, I was fierce because I felt the whole town is moving towards his lynch.

With less then a week to go, we have to decide who we want to lynch, based on the information we got. I am a fan of a S2R lynch, for the vote unvote thingy, and the weak bandwagon FoS he just placed. a "yeah, I think him scummy too"-FoS.

Recently, AS has really improved. He is in my townie list, or close to that.

and hey, swimmer, I am the second person you talk about. Please, make a case Because we can all tunnel on one, and hope he breaks. Try me.

[mykonian]

and here you learn what an alt is, and what not to do with it.

This is becoming a hobby of mine...

(that was me)

[mykonian]

mykonian you need to be careful with your trying to get into the mind of a scum because that can lead to WIFOM territory.

Best to just look for scum tells instead of trying to figure out what scum are thinking.

don't hate wifom, use it. You are basically denying yourself the chance a way to find scum. And believe me, there are enough that play by looking after motivations. It is believed superior by quite a lot of people. Simply following tells is for people who will never understand the game. Since who thought them up?

and people, please explain to me how defending Pierre is good, if we were both scum Would make it a little easy for you, wouldn't it? Since you all get the point that I am defending him. I am absolutely not hiding it. And I know that defending a person is percieved scummy. This is not the first time I do it, though. Now why would I do that...

[mykonian]

As to my post, I have no idea. That wasn't what I was looking at, but I posted it while holding a conversation over my shoulder. Won't be doing that again. I might have been reading another of his posts and replying to it again. This does not change my suspicions on Pierre who has fallen to OMGUS moments repeatedly.

However, Mykonian has started to get my attention, similar to another person. He defends Pierre too ardently for my taste, including praising people for looking elsewhere aside from his scumbuddy.

you actually have the guts to admit to have strawmanned Pierre, basing a lot of your case on something that wasn't true, and after that accuse the person that was calling you out on it. Brilliant OMGUS.

[mykonian]

OK, now for some original thought. I actually read over the whole thread and took notes.


Let's see all the interesting stuff I've observed:

p7 - myk votes for Pierre. Odd. Not the only random joke vote, but still.

p15 Pierre jumps on AS for joke pseudo-roleclaim. p21, myk does the same.

p47 is gold. Pierre says AS is misleading us, but he doesn't want to start a bandwagon, and then does just that. PE's request of an explanation to pierre's statement leads to Pierre claiming that PE is scum.

p72 - myk votes for Spinach, claims he made a contradiction, but doesn't explain or quote

p81 Pierre calls swimmer scummy for pointing out contradictions and voting pattern

p88 Talk about WTF. This one is worth quoting

Still, nothing smells fishy. So

unvote

for now, a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help. But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits.

OR

We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

No one in particular is suspicious, and I might be a cop or town, so I should be lynched.

p103 myk implies AS might be scum based on the same joke pseudo-romeclaim from the beginning of the game. then he agrees with pierre's p88's epically crappy line of argument, then tries to make it sound like I'm scum pretending to be a cop and failing. Bad rationalization

p104 myk's scumlist includes me (see p88 and p103), PE (see p47), swimmer, who has consistently done a good job deconstructing pierre's bad arguments, and AS.

p110 myk comes in to defend Pierre yet again. Pierre's retaliation vote/scumclaim on PE (see p47) p

roves that he's just paranoid and can't possibly be scum!

p111 myk we want a lynch, period (as I understand it)

p125 - just odd.

OK.

@swimmer: paranoid people don't know what is going on, scum does know. That is the reasoning. So scum would never be paranoid if someone tries to convince them.

AS has a great point pierre. That post doesn't help you a bit, and if you want to win, be it before or after your death, you want to hunt for scum.

p127 pierre unvotes on me after his voting style is called out

p139 myk says I'm obviously scummy...apparently for no particular reason.

post by post analysis:

P7

. My random vote. This is an observation, no analysis by S2R. Also, this random vote is "odd", since I vote him here, while I defend him later. Of course this isn't odd, here I know nothing, later I act on the information I have. S2R tries to put a thought in our mind here.

P15

Pierre dislikes AS's claim.

P21

I explain as IC why not to claim, since AS asked that. S2R tries to show here we act as a team, while this isn't happening. Again, he doesn't say he tries, he just implies I and pierre are working together.

P47

Here, S2R claims pierre bandwagons, and accuses PCE of being scum. That is way stronger then pierre put it: no wonder S2R can find a "contradiction"

I hereby do stand quite well behind my previous vote for AntiSemantic. It looks like he/she (?) is trying to mislead us and give quite a lot of reasons, JUST at Semi-RvS. By the way, is it frowned upon to start a bandwagon, even if you do have some pretty good reasons, and I am not trying right now to start one mind you.

What are you trying to do then, exactly?

Noticed this now, what I am trying to do is give a point. Something simply to consider and take in mind for later, if it does result in a case where AS needs some sort of proof.

But now, your turning me the other way right now. That post in itself sounded awkward. You've just tried to buckle someone trying to help under pressure, though you were initially arguing with AntiSemantic in the first place.

It's still RVS but I'm putting the

FOS: PorkChopExpress

right now, but hey, this is still just a reply to your post.

P72

Here, S2R claims I claimed spinach made a contradiction: However, it was Spinach who found a minor contradiction in Einlanzers post, with little reason for scum to make it. It was mostly a miscommunication. He FoS'ed Einlanzer, I made clear that it was a bad way of scumhunting.

P81

is the

first observation that is actually correct

, but no analysis here.

P88

The "I am going through all possibilities post". Pierre is going through all the possibilities that could explain S2R's actions. Pierre votes him for the big chance he sees that S2R is scum (you can disagree on that). But S2R nicely summarizes this as

No one in particular is suspicious, and I might be a cop or town, so I should be lynched.

Leaving out: the chance he is scum, and the fact that Pierre brought his reasons in the same post why he thought that likely:

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

So, some major fabrication going on here.

P103

I never say anyone is trying to look the cop, like S2R claims I did. Since I could accidentaly be outing the cop that way, it is a forbidden subject. I don't want to help scum of course. So again, a misrepresentation fo S2R. And yes, I liked Pierre's

analysis

in post 88, and yes, I called AS on his semiclaim, since it doesn't help town.

This is the end of this, since I can barely react on a recap of my scumlist, a "just odd" comment, or the observation that I defended Pierre.

Summary

S2R repeatedly misrepresents me and Pierre here, thereby fabricating a case against us. Obviously not town. Town wouldn't need to twist words to find scum, that is a scumtactic to get town lynched.

[mykonian]

[IC]here, you see why you should be wary of such PbP analysis, like S2R posted. They seem to show activity, but are actually quite easy for scum to make (I know from experience), and since you summarize, you can leave out the points that don't really work for you, and make points that support your case stronger. These analysis's are also not often checked, easily accepted, and thereby twisting words can actually be accepted by the town sometimes. Be very careful with them, and even as town, don't use them too often: they provide little analysis, and are not that easy to read, and thereby don't help the town that well. A series of arguments with quotes is preferable: you make your point, and prove you are right by showing the quote.[/i]

Now, can we have a S2R lynch please?

[mykonian]

and for an example of scum using it in a newby game to show activity and fake a case on a towny:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 57#1261757

[mykonian]

A claim on D1..really? You guys trying to sniff out doctors/cops?

are you serious? you want to lynch someone on D1 without them claiming?

Guys, not productive. Look at my case on S2R please.

What I have to say as IC on this matter is that I know it to be normal to claim before being lynched, to see if the claim fits the play etc.

[mykonian]

Agreed. Good point Einlanzers: he has only 3 votes. Not such a strong move.

BTW: S2R is obviousscum here, more votes there please.

[mykonian]

Now, can we have a S2R lynch please?

Am I missing something? Calling for a lynch on someone that doesn't have any scumtells, yet points them out in you?

also

vote: pierre

No scumtells??? Read the thread, don't fake cases on people.

and don't run scared for your Pierre lynch, scum. You can't defend yourself against my case, so I don't mind you don't try.

L-1

: but we want a S2R lynch, read my reaction on his PbP analysis. Someone is trying to escape here.

[mykonian]

Now, can we have a S2R lynch please?

Am I missing something? Calling for a lynch on someone that doesn't have any scumtells, yet points them out in you?

also

vote: pierre

You have a lot of guts, I have to say. First, you have observed that I defend Pierre, but you can't tell me why I am scum. So you haven't pointed out a single thing. Also, the attacks against you, you simply deny them. And after that, you put someone else at L-1.

Now, if you were town, you would have defended, in stead of running away.

[mykonian]

one thing I want to say before I let others react: I see a lot of notes, and little analysis. Further, he is quite singleminded, going only after Pierre, and me. TBH, I don't see a towny here, more scum who goes after the people that are most in the spotlights. A bit opportunistic.

I have to say I disagree with this analysis. Pierre was in the spotlight for good reasons. Maybe not guaranteed scummy reasons, but ones worth looking into, and even pressuring. And aiming 100% at him is a good way to pressure, especially considering Pierre hasn't, IMO, sufficiently defended himself.

However, I do find it quite hypocritical that you criticize him for this and then go on to make a series of posts cumulating in:

Now, can we have a S2R lynch please?

what I mean is that good town should check everyone, and not just the ones that are more likely to be lynched. Something I believe I haven't done as a player, I have suspected a multiple of people. So yes, I think there is a difference. doesn't really matter, you got the point

Let's look at S2R's post:

p15 Pierre jumps on AS for joke pseudo-roleclaim. p21, myk does the same.

compared to mykonian's re-evaluation:

P15 Pierre dislikes AS's claim. P21 I explain as IC why not to claim, since AS asked that. S2R tries to show here we act as a team, while this isn't happening. Again, he doesn't say he tries, he just implies I and pierre are working together.

Here I feel that mykonian is reaching in his interpretation. Merely noting which people brought into question that post isn't insinuating anything. He actually doesn't really imply it until later. Not disagreeing that the entire post has that theme, just saying that he's jumping at the wrong things.

I question his intentions in that post. He chose to post it, so he has a motive for doing so. I might be wrong, that is true.

[IC]here, you see why you should be wary of such PbP analysis, like S2R posted. They seem to show activity, but are actually quite easy for scum to make (I know from experience), and since you summarize, you can leave out the points that don't really work for you, and make points that support your case stronger. These analysis's are also not often checked, easily accepted, and thereby twisting words can actually be accepted by the town sometimes. Be very careful with them, and even as town, don't use them too often: they provide little analysis, and are not that easy to read, and thereby don't help the town that well. A series of arguments with quotes is preferable: you make your point, and prove you are right by showing the quote.[/i]

Now, can we have a S2R lynch please?

This I REALLY don't like. At all. You post a paragraph about good play from the position of and Inexperience-Challenged player, but in the context of supporting your own post. Yes, guidance is appreciated in newbie games, but this feels like you're attempting to coerce support.

Good point. You are completely right. I might have gone to the edge here of being a good IC. But in my defense, I have not lied. I am also not the only person that voices the opinion that these lists are overrated, and I have given one example of it happening. Also, I never said they were only used by scum. Just that it happens.

I think it happened with S2R. But you also have to think how likely it actually is. Mafia isn't about truths, and these lists aren't a scumtell: I told you to look at them very well, as they might contain scumtells. I have done so myself in this case, and have argued why there were tells in them. So far, I have followed my own advice, and the only thing that my IC-part is doing wrong, is that is plants a seed of doubt in your heads for S2R's post. In case more people severly dislike this, I am sorry.

Overall @mykonian: You've brought up some good points, but you're also falling for some of the faults you're criticizing, namely getting a bit too zealous and tunnel visioned. I'm still getting a town reading from you, maybe because I love people who defend WIFOM. But it makes your points more hostile when you use IC status to endorse your own posts and say things like:

don't run scared for your Pierre lynch, scum. You can't defend yourself against my case, so I don't mind you don't try.

It could use some toning down.

That was seperate from my IC piece, that I ended with [/IC]. This is my own opinion, and while I might have been too subjective with that information (sorry again), I know I have made good points that that post made S2R the scummiest guy in this town.

Further, to all the others: this is analyzing. This is using the information and deciding on that. This, in short, is how you are going to find scum. AS, because of this, is behaving as a perfect towny.

[mykonian]

I- Pierre is town: Really, nothing comes out of this.

on mykonian

II- Pierre is mafia: Casts suspicion on mykonian. Takes it off of S2R.

brings it onto swimmer (distancing),

III- S2R is town: Casts suspicion on mykonian.

IV- S2R is mafia: Takes suspicion from mykonian, Pierre.

Distancing (between scum): the act of attacking each other to show you are not a team. You catch this mostly by unnatural attacks (you could argue swimmer did this to pierre). Bussing is if you vote your buddy for the lynch.

Buddying (from scum to town): Being nice makes you less of a lynch target. Being nice to a towny makes that he thinks you are likely town too.

And then the point why I could be scum if Pierre comes up as town. I could have defended him, since I knew he was town. Then when he would get lynched, I could act as the supertowny. This is one reason why defending someone else can be scummy. [/wifom]

Please don't react to this post. The wifom part is not in anyway trying to attack or defend myself, and I am also not attacking swimmer or anyone else, so you don't have to defend.

Since we are so close to a deadline, it is better to decide between pierre and S2R now.

[mykonian]

how is Pierre contributing more than S2R, AS?

Actually I don't think Pierre has scum hunted at all this entire day. I don't even know who he suspects

are you defending S2R?

anyway, I know S2R has twisted more words then S2R, and his only long post showed he was scum. Please read my post, and AS's reaction on it. Also, read einlanzers post. You haven't even acknowledged they were posted

so even if he is your scumbuddy, could you please take some time and look at S2R, and the arguments presented against him?

[mykonian]

First things first: we have one day, I think. Please all who agree to lynch S2R (also you pierre, since you should be sure that you have 0 chance of getting scum with the other lynch, or at least pretend so), vote him asap.

Einlanzers: yes, the second S2R must be pierre.

Alv: I think we might say that they are not both scum. Further the talk about me is for tomorrow, seen the deadline. Further, I think swimmer is just as bad, maybe a little less obvious. And I would like you to look at your own arguments in you last post: even there, S2R is the scummiest of the two.

PCE: I don't want to talk about alv now, and the fact that S2R simply deny's what I've said makes him scum that just wants to survive this day. Alv just has a bigger chance at being newby town.

With S2R this is not happening, he has read the accusations, but chooses not to react

. The choice between Pierre and S2R is a gut one. I simply cannot see how Pierre's actions are done by scum. Like the paranoia point: I cannot see scum reacting that way, when someone tries to push them into a vote.

and in the bussing buddying post, I was not defending myself. If you want to know why or how I defend people, and what it tells, you might want to read other games of me, to see what I normally do. (be sure they are already finished, can't react on games that are still being played.)

and while I am not going to do it now, I still owe you a WIFOM-explanation post

[mykonian]

The Rules:

3. Votes and Lynches

*Lynches will only occur with a true majority of voters (Half the number of living players plus one). Once a person has reached a majority, they are dead and unvoting them will not stop the lynch.

*If the deadline hits before anyone has been lynched, then no one will be lynched.

*Votes and unvotes should be bolded in the following format (

vote: iamausername

,

unvote: iamausername

). It is not necessary to unvote before making a new vote.

*Players may vote for no lynch to occur on any given day (

vote: No Lynch

). A majority of votes for no lynch will end the day and no one will be lynched.

*Until I have counted the votes and posted the death scene and role reveal, all players including the lynchee may continue to post.

*Once I have posted a scene indicating that a player is dead, they are not to post anything else at all, not even a "Bah!" post.

[mykonian]

Maybe not PCE, but it is the guy who has been defending Pierre, our top suspicion for scum, with an almost religious fanaticism. Then plays WIFOM to divert our attention by playing against his own defense. He is at the very least suspicious. To deny that is suspicious yourself.

mind if I defend against this day 2? Since the deadline is so close, and I have been neglecting it a bit, I'm afraid. It is however also a bit timeconsuming to tell you why I had to defend, and why WIFOM isn't bad.

Further, I think I can say I have done some scumhunting here and there So maybe these are the quirks you have to accept from me day one

[mykonian]

P15

Pierre dislikes AS's claim.

P21

I explain as IC why not to claim, since AS asked that. S2R tries to show here we act as a team, while this isn't happening. Again, he doesn't say he tries, he just implies I and pierre are working together.

Flatly denying something doesn't constitute a counter argument

glad you admit you actually did try to subjectively set us as a team, while you could have said it directly (and towny), in stead of planting it in our minds. As scum you should have stayed away from this comment, or said you absolutely didn't mean that. Thank you.

P47

Here, S2R claims pierre bandwagons, and accuses PCE of being scum. That is way stronger then pierre put it: no wonder S2R can find a "contradiction"

I hereby do stand quite well behind my previous vote for AntiSemantic. It looks like he/she (?) is trying to mislead us and give quite a lot of reasons, JUST at Semi-RvS. By the way, is it frowned upon to start a bandwagon, even if you do have some pretty good reasons, and I am not trying right now to start one mind you.

What are you trying to do then, exactly?

It's still RVS but I'm putting the

FOS: PorkChopExpress

right now, but hey, this is still just a reply to your post.

There's really nothing to say to that. Pierre show's an inconsistent play style, and flatly denying it doesn't change my observation.

Nice to quote them above each other. Now, is this a contradiction that you claimed: Pierre bandwagoning, while accusing PCE of doing it happening here? I think not: this is a Finger of Suspicion, a "I don't fully trust your actions are beneficial for the town", not the cheap placement of a vote following the rest. You point out your own exaggeration.

P88

The "I am going through all possibilities post". Pierre is going through all the possibilities that could explain S2R's actions. Pierre votes him for the big chance he sees that S2R is scum (you can disagree on that). But S2R nicely summarizes this as

No one in particular is suspicious, and I might be a cop or town, so I should be lynched.

Leaving out: the chance he is scum, and the fact that Pierre brought his reasons in the same post why he thought that likely:

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

So, some major fabrication going on here.

Now, you are the one engaging in creatively interpreting peoples' posts.
Again:

Still, nothing smells fishy. So

unvote

for now, a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help. But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.

Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits.

OR

We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

Pierre's line of reasoning:

*Still, nothing smells fishy. So unvote for now
* a few good posts by AntiSemantic makes me think he's not so suspicious, but rather willing to help.
* But we DO need to get rid someone for informational purposes.

Vote: stands2reason

OK, so I should be offed for informational purposes.

*Now I think he's just trying to quickly get someone off and that with not posting at all. (a fair enough criticism. I haven't been involved in the game as much as I should have)

* It's either he's really bad scum, trying to quickly get off with a post then hide.Then, we can say he's a cop who has nothing behind a vote and just waits. OR We can say he's just a really bad player, not joining in and participating. So reasons, reasons, reasons, really.

But yeah, he can just be a huge newbie.

He admits that I'm sorta scummy, but I might not be scum. He throws out the accusation and vote. But then throws in the caveat to make it look like he's being even-handed.

Or he just is even-handed. Your word, my word. Who tells you you are right? Because the vote was wrong? Not on a player who acted scummily? The basis, the accusation was correct, therefor I never had anything to doubt about the res:

since an escape wasn't needed with the argumentation that was correct, and provable on you

. Mafia wouldn't have needed to do it.

P103

I never say anyone is trying to look the cop, like S2R claims I did.

Then pleas explain the correct way to interpret this:

what AS said: please be a little more convinced in your reasoning. Sure, you might think you are completely honest here, but the cop thing is overdoing it. Further, as scum, this would be a way to vote, but have the possibility to unvote again, when you want to. Still, I like how you play. Keep it up.

I think I did exactly what I sad... He shouldn't have said it, it was way to much to be healthy,

he was overdoing it

. He shouldn't have posted it, while he might think a complete analysis would be towny, it actually didn't help there.

This seems like a weird misread, which can happen. Though I wonder where the idea of the misread came from. How did you get to think someone thought you were playing the cop? (hereby, I won't believe a copclaim from S2R , but I wouldn't believe any claim of him, tbh.)

[mykonian]

but I'm being overly paranoid that you can be scum, pretending to be helpful (and in some cases thus present an argument against yourself), etc. MAJOR WIFOM case here, but hey, that is just the way it goes.

This is exactly why I have my sig You aren't the first, and won't be the last who says that, esspecially when I am IC'ing. You are right, I would be helpful as scum too. but there is no conspiracy

@pierre: vote S2R. You know you are town, or should pretend to. That means S2R is the only good lynch for you. Also, some last minute good post might help.


And I am not very happy with this situation. I can be wrong, but even then, I think S2R has been scummier then pierre, while they were both not perfect. But we dont' have a lot of time to choose, otherwise we'll have to lynch Pierre. Make your FoS's votes, and Pierre, vote too.

[mykonian]

ok, 21 hours to go, according to the mods lovely clock (love it here, you won't see it often, yet).

Can I ask:

Pierre to vote,
Einlanzers to make a vote of his FoS
and PCE, or Alv, to make their suspicions worthy a vote for S2R?

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I'm still waiting for claims from one or both of them at this point before I commit to a vote.

Also, there is a conspiracy! It is you, S2R and Pierre all bussing each other! ZOMG! THEY ARE COMING TO GET ME!

(If someone can't tell, I'm joking on that triple bussing part)

alv, consider this, what claim would make you change your mind about them? What claim would make sense for their play? I went over it, and tbh, both haven't done anything that makes them fit in a role, making the claim worthy.

So, it is probably better to decide on information you have who you want to lynch, then to let a claim (which can be a lottery sometimes, a gamble) decide, since you have enough information about them both, so you can make a decent decision.

and, if I were S2R scum, do you think I would be eager to claim? or would I stall and hopefully force us to lynch pierre before deadline? Also, pierre did not seem so eager to claim either earlier.

Further, claiming has the chance that scum fakeclaims and thereby makes the PR's (powerrole(s)) show themselves in some way. It is not a no risk thing, so you have to ask yourself if it really is that important.

but, it is your choice I just want to show it is not necesary.

[mykonian]

I should be around. According to the deadline clock, it is roughly between 3-4pm my time, so I'll be around the computer then.

Better question is if I really wanna' be the one to hammer someone. It DOES seem to bring unwanted attention, regardless of the perceived necessity of the situation.

Nah, it only does for people with a limited scope. Certainly in this situation. [ic]Having the guts to hammer when needed, when you agree with the lynch on good reasons, is no scumtell.[/ic]

[mykonian]

Well...damn.

newb-scumtell: townies don't have to say they are sorry about the kill/lynch, they already know it isn't that great, but they want to find scum out of it. You posted, without intention to find scum, only to show you are a good townie.

This increases my suspicion of you.

But, first things first: why I defend someone. I do this because I believe I am right, and I would be a fool for withoutholding such information from the town. You may disagree, but that shouldn't withhold me from saying it. Things that made me want to defend were: a weak case that was build up succesifly because pierre didn't defend, the fact that I didn't like the way the wagon started (tunneling from swimmer, and people agreeing and jumping the wagon), the way people hesitated going on it (S2R, I was wrong here, it seems) etc. It gave me the feeling, and still does, that there were scum on the wagon, and for that reason, I didn't want to lynch pierre.

WIFOM

WIFOM is the thing that comes up in mafia games when people (scum, most times) are offered two choices, with different profits. For example, you could attack a towny, or you could attack your buddy. Now, the first one is obviously more profitable: a towny gets attention, has to defend (can't attack well in that position), and is more likely to be lynched. However, every town would go looking for this behaviour, and scum would be found. Because of that, scum would also attack their buddy sometimes. 50% of the times? NO! Maths tell us that perfect scum would do it so that the profits of both, multiplied by the percentage of time they would do it would be equal, maximizing benefit in total that way.

So, in this example, scum would sometimes attack their buddy, but mostly attack townies: which means the tell is still there, it just isn't perfect anymore. WIFOM has the influence of drawing choices towards 50%, but never to 50% exactly.

Now, this you can analyze, and by looking how many choices scum had to make, and how likely they would be, you can deduce the

most likely outcome

.

This is the best you can get in mafia anyway, you almost never get absolute truths. Analyzing chances therefor might be a good way to get a view of things, and discarding things because they are "WIFOM" is almost always a bad way to play (and eagerly used by scum). If you want to brake down such an argument based on chances, you have to show that what the other deduced was actually not the most likely thing that could have happened.

[mykonian]

Well...damn.

newb-scumtell: townies don't have to say they are sorry about the kill/lynch, they already know it isn't that great, but they want to find scum out of it.

You posted, without intention to find scum, only to show you are a good townie.

This increases my suspicion of you.

This about sums up Alviaran's play all through Day 1. He's more concerned about appearances than anything else.

you are right, the end of the day alv acted the same way: continiously trying to be correct, but on the other hand easily agreeing with for example: me (the claim thing, for example).

Further, I doubt Einlanzers way of entering the wagon a bit. Swimmers tunneling the whole day is more then weird, and Spinach's mostly arguing about semantics and half lurking is also not what I would expect from a towny. (one could see his arguing with Einlanzers as distancing), and last but not least: Pierres play has been way from convincing. Little to no scumhunting, no defense, and the whole day practically playing without goal.

[mykonian]

swimmer, if you go for scum, and you ask him to claim, and he fakeclaims doctor: will you allow him to save himself that way? There is no real answer.

First vote for today:

vote alviaran

[mykonian]

newb-scumtell: townies don't have to say they are sorry about the kill/lynch, they already know it isn't that great, but they want to find scum out of it. You posted, without intention to find scum, only to show you are a good townie.

Newb-towntell. I flip flopped at the end and caused a mislynch (both may have been mislynchs but we now know for sure that it was). I regret it. I wholeheartedly disagree that a townie isn't going to feel bad or they made a mistake. It is major WIFOM if you think that of all things is a scumtell.

but why post to say you are so towny and you feel bad, when you also could have analysed yesterday's lynch?

maybe because you care more about looking towny then finding scum, perhaps?

and it is great to notice you haven't read my post, and this doesn't come close to "WIFOM". Other then that, "WIFOM" is never a defense, as you use it here, and I think it shows you don't have a real argument why I am not right?



why again did you misrepresent Pierre?

[mykonian]

Further, I doubt Einlanzers way of entering the wagon a bit.

Why is that? Because I didn't join the wagon when I posted a long description of S2R's scum-factors? Or did you not like my analysis at all?

well, first, the fact that you use the analysis to get the right to hop on the wagon, while it is easy for scum to do, such an analysis. Simply because it is easy to say S2R lurked. It gives you some legitimacy for going on the wagon.

but is it scumhunting?

[mykonian]

about the claiming: I analyzed both pierre's and S2R's play, and there was nothing that could point both to scum and to powerrole. So I would not be likely to accept any claim. Meh, maybe someone else knows the correct answer to this problem. I don't.

At pierre's post: no comment. Don't have any idea what it is saying (mostly my problem, I assume, being tired is an understatement), but I see a lot of quote blocks and little text:

I don't know what you are thinking, pierre, and that is a bad thing

I dislike Alv's subjective attack, and missing defense to my post.

and I miss a few players.

[mykonian]

Spinach, I know it to be a tell, and I know it to be a working one (couldn't find the newby game where my scumbuddy did exactly that). This, added with other things that Alv did, makes him suspicious in the least.

Also, I explained the logic behind the tell. He could have, and hasn't analyzed the previous day. All he has done is: show he is a towny, defend himself, and saying he made a mistake day 1 (whatever that meant in context).

[mykonian]

yes, this wasn't a pretty lynch.

TBH, I would have expected PCE and Spinach to play different:

less lurky

they allways seem to be in the background.

I still have to understand swimmers play: would you care to explain why you tunneled that way?

[mykonian]

promises promises...

unvote vote Einlanzers

[mykonian]

because I feel like voting him

[mykonian]

UNVOTE VOTE SWIMMER

TELL ME:

why did you tunnel for practically a whole day!

and the above make alv absolutely look back.

it is a blatant, and obvious lie for him to say he was lynching swimmer

. and even if it isn't, the fact that he claims to have been desinterested in who was scum

all day

makes Alv the lynch target.

Unless swimmer chooses to ignore my question for the third time. I want an answer. No matter what it is, I want one.

[mykonian]

ok, swimmer, but deciding so soon who you are going to attack makes that you leave a lot of info (gathered during the day) unused. The vote just before the lynch should be your best one, and because you have more info then, it is normal to have the vote on the right person then, and not necesarily on the start, or halfway the day.

So yes, in general tunneling is bad. You disallow yourself also the info how your suspect reacts on your attacks

But yes, after this recent lie of Alv, his lynch is in my eyes unavoidable, and

vote Alviaran

is going to stay there, unless something like a scumclaim comes up.

[mykonian]

aggressiveness is a key townie trait that leads to town wins

it is something else then blindly attacking. Keep your eyes open, that is what I ask from you. And no, you didn't do that.

[mykonian]

unvote

You people confuse me on the moment.

Swimmer claiming that his semi-random vote was just the best, and he never had to change it for anything is just more then weird. Also, PCE makes sense. I would certainly like to read a case on Spinach. Pierre is Lurking.

[mykonian]

unvote

You people confuse me on the moment.

Swimmer claiming that his semi-random vote was just the best, and he never had to change it for anything is just more then weird. Also, PCE makes sense. I would certainly like to read a case on Spinach. Pierre is Lurking.

what random vote? I've never random voted in this game

hence the semi part

you voted pierre for his 2 posts around the starting argument, in your first post.

what a case.

[mykonian]

Dangit...I keep finding stuff to respond to and making new posts. I'm sorry for this. This is the last of the series...

@mykonian,
I'm not a big fan of your play lately. The vote/ask question/get answer/unvote method is a pretty good method, but I think it's better for Day 1 when we have less information. Anything after Day 1 and it just looks like you're skipping around trying to latch onto anything.

which is exactly what I am doing. Which is the problem. I have problems with the scumminess of 4 people, and I have only 1 vote.

On the other hand, reacting to what comes up, is good.

I am not going to like Swimmers play. Voting in your first post, on a weak basis, and gently making your case bigger with things like not defending, OMGUS, and overdefensiveness. While not adding anything to the rest of the game.

How would the easiest scumplay be? find someone who is a bit scummy, so you have a good excuse for your vote, and then comment on nothing but how right you are in your vote. You look good, and you get your mislynch. The fact that you clearly "know" already who scum is, to be so confident in tunneling, is completely weird for a towny.

Also, the fact that Pierre completely disappeared from your posts, and you only go for someone who was attacked in the start following what you think the town, makes me think you are the scum here, and not Alv.

vote Swimmer

[mykonian]

hello all. I was going to say Signore was scummy for not unvoting but hey I replaced him.

unvote

in case the votes weren't cleared.

To me, the porkchop and AS debate is meaningless. They both look like frustrated players, and to me thats more of a townie sign.

Pierre, on the other hand, is way way more scummy

vote: Pierre

:

italics emphasis is mine

o, yes, before I forget: it would be appreciated if you didn't claim too early, unless you are mafia Townie claims are usually not helping the town, but are helping the mafia.

I guess I should hold off on the vanilla townie claim then, eh?

Unvote: Alviaran, Vote: AntiSemantic

Misleading role claim?

Then again, if someone will jump a bandwagon suddenly, this much into the game; I'll put on my FoS. It could be activity limits,

but then it's still RvS.

So accusing an obvious joke roleclaim of being serious, putting a serious vote down, but hey guys its still RvS

I find this scummy, not only because of the contradiction, but because townies shouldn't really be worried about whether their votes are "weighty". Mafia would worry about vote analysis later in the game. This is definitely scummy.

I hereby do stand quite well behind my previous vote for AntiSemantic. It looks like he/she (?) is

trying to mislead

us and give quite a lot of reasons,

JUST at Semi-RvS

. By the way, is it frowned upon to start a bandwagon, even if you do have some pretty good reasons, and

I am not trying right now to start one mind you

.

mislead us? how? AS is just arguing semantics, and isn't leading anyone anywhere. Nice usage of verbage tho to make a frustrated townie look scummier.

Also mentions again that we're still in joke vote phase when we're clearing not.

and then again with the "not trying to start a bandwagon..don't lynch me when he flips townie" reasoning.

I hereby do stand quite well behind my previous vote for AntiSemantic. It looks like he/she (?) is trying to mislead us and give quite a lot of reasons, JUST at Semi-RvS. By the way, is it frowned upon to start a bandwagon, even if you do have some pretty good reasons, and I am not trying right now to start one mind you.

What are you trying to do then, exactly?

Noticed this now, what I am trying to do is give a point. Something simply to consider and take in mind for later, if it does result in a case where AS needs some sort of proof.

But now, your turning me the other way right now

. That post in itself sounded awkward.

You've just tried to buckle someone trying to help under pressure

, though you were initially arguing with AntiSemantic in the first place.

It's still RVS

but I'm putting the

FOS: PorkChopExpress

right now, but hey, this is still just a reply to your post.

Porkchop calls out exactly what I'm saying, but not so eloquently. Instead of defending his opinion, or restating his opinion, Pierre immediately goes defensive and FOS' him. Nice. I thought it was a reasonable question to ask Pierre.

Also with the "guys its still RVS don't mind me, these votes aren't serious" when its clearly not RVS anymore.

Sorry I haven't posted. Been

following

, just haven't had much to say. The game has been moving a tad slow compared to what I'm dealing with on another site.

I'm not dead yet!

You were following?

That's like lurking, in some way isn't it?

Immediately jumps on a lurker after they posted how they're following but tied up in another game. Although lurking is scummy, I think Alviaran is being sincere at the moment.

Anyways that's what I got so far. I also think stand2alone was scummy as hell for his posts, so putting a

FOS: stand2reason

. I won't talk about who I find townie because it just gives the mafia ammo. Maybe in the future.

so yeah lynch Pierre

the reason why Swimmer never had to talk about anyone else later in the game. I think it was a tad early to lynch someone on such a case. It is simply not great.

[mykonian]

you know what's funny Myk, is that you went after S2R all day trying to derail my bandwagon, and guess what, YOU got your mislynch. I still think Pierre is scum.

subjective omgus attack Swimmer doesn't come with any reasoning why I as scum wouldn't go with the easy Pierre lynch, etc. Rubbish argument, only a subjective way to attack me

I've never OMGUS'd anyone in this game, so you're wrong there. I don't think I've been overdefensive. I prefer the term aggressive. I admit I might let some things slip by, but if repeated I will respond to them.

this is the way scum make their case bigger when they already have one, it is easy to add when you are already attacking someone. So not defending is quite easy to add against Pierre. Read my post better please, I wasn't saying you were overdefensive or something like that

Actually the easiest way to play scum is to lurk, not scum hunt, and go with the flow and repeat everyone else's arguments.

that makes you a towny, I guess. And it is also the thing everyone is looking out for. But great you are attacking the lurker, alviaran?(he isn't)

What I've been doing may be perceived as tunnelling, but a) its not bad play anyways and b) I've been giving my thoughts on who I think is scum the entire game with reasoning and logic. I have just not talked about who I think is town, which I think is bad town play.

you gave your reasoning on pierre, that something different. It is easy to stick with one person,

when you have to make up arguments against townies

and once again myk, you lie about what I've done. I said I think Pierre and Alv are scum buddies, and I can only lynch one of them. I think Alv is much clearly scum than Pierre, and I only have one vote.

you have done nothing to tell us why one is more scummy then the other, so the go with the flow argument still stands

Although you flipping the tables and ignoring everything Alv done to attack is me is quite strange, and I'm beginning to think you're actually his scum buddy trying to run the train on me.

wow, I ignored Alv? we attacked him at the same time, silly I started this day with going against alv! Sorry, but this is pathetic

Why are you ignoring Alv now Myk?

because this is an obvious deflection, and I don't like your play at all. Partly the things you drop that you are playing good as town. You don't have to care, right?

Bolded is mine

[mykonian]

I also love how you quote my entire post, and then just blanket it with "its not great", without citing any cases or explanations or reasoning. That's pretty scummy myk

and this is OMGUS, swimmer Get a case, or claim scum.

and yes, 4 posts which are mostly about joke/serious problems, that is weak.

Also, it is very funny to see you don't react to all the other accusations and only pick out the "semi-random vote part", which you twist to "random vote", so you can argue about it.

That's pretty scummy swimmer

[mykonian]

if anyone is reading this besides Alv and myk, I think we should lynch Alv first. I know, they both are scum, but we can only lynch one at a time.

Can you stop making OMGUS accusations

without any basis

. You don't have any point that shows I am scum. Then what reason could you have to suddenly think me scum as soon as I attack you, with no reasoning other then that I attack you?

Sure, it helps to say that I am scum, since those accusations must be lies then...

Right, which is why you're now voting me because you think Alv is townie and I'm trying to get the easy target lynched...that's a complete reversal myk. You even said that Alv lied, but hey lets go after the guy that agrees with you. You're voting for the guy that sees the same scummy things that you saw in the beginning of day 2.

That's pretty scummy myk.

Hey, why do I need to think the person that agrees with me town? that is called buddying.

I'll go through you post later, tomorrow, since it is well passed midnight.

[mykonian]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

Now, lets say, that this attack was to find out what swimmers allignment is, what have we learned then? He is eager to point fingers to alv, and makes omgus-like statements.

[mykonian]

I don't think you know what OMGUS means. I haven't made a single omgus statement, and have used logic and reasoning for all my accusations.

Think about this Myk...

if I'm scum, then Alv is not scum.

So if you're going after me, then that means you've changed your mind about Alv.

Alv has lied about his hammer vote and been generally scummy, as you've claimed. How come the minute I go after him as well, you decide to unvote alv and go after me?

You've become the bad guy because you are being scummy as hell by making up things to vote me for.

We disagree on that first point.

Now, the whole goal of this was to get discussion, and not only about Alv. This horribly failed, since the whole game lurks.

Before you read the rest: I do dislike your day one play. It is not protown. Further, OMGUS is exactly the last sentence, since I didn't make anything up. I did make valid points (I would never lie as scum, since there is enough to argue about, usually), but while you already (should) know you are a towny, these may seem lies. Think how S2R must have felt.

One thing that happens a lot when being attacked is that you will see the attacker as scummy, since it is so obvious you are town! In this case, swimmer, it never was obvious. Since you were talking so much about pierre, and nothing else, nobody ever got a good look at you.


Einlanzers pointed it out well: there are multiple types of attacks. You can attack someone to find out his/her side, or you can attack to convince other people of a lynch. For the last thing, you need to find scum, in some way, and logically argue for his lynch.

Now tell me, with all the points in front of you: start of the day, low activity, and basically set on the lynch already, and then suddenly an attack on a person who has not been in the spotlight at all: what kind of attack was this?

unvote

And to get back at Einlanzers, since I didn't want to answer then: this was right. To go for a lynch on the start of the day, when you still don't know everyone, is not such great play. You want as much information as possible for every lynch (in theory)

[mykonian]

but still nothing that makes me scummy. Only an obvious connection to someone allignment swimmer isn't supposed to know. And it is weird that while he goes for alv, I am becoming the bad guy very very soon after I attack him.

So, which is it, is he tunneling scum or is he making wild accusations all over the place?

both. He tunneled through day one, found a new target day 2, and OMGUS attacked me when I attacked him.

btw, that is the so maniest time I use that "tell": OMGUS. Basically, this tell sucks. You shouldn't do it as town, (counterattacking with no reasons), since it is simply counterproductive, and the no reasons thing makes it just as likely that you attack a towny. Doesn't mean that townies don't do it. While the word is used in rhetoric, because it has some power when it is said, it actually doesn't make a strong case.

[mykonian]

Mykonians wishlist

Spinach power
More then oneliners from PCE, pierre
In case he still wants: a case on mykonian by swimmer
something else then semantics from Einlanzers
Alv to give an opinion about every player. (short list with how much you like them, and why)

[mykonian]

so since you unvoted, that means you think I'm town now?

I'm confused

I have no reason to believe you are scum. Before that, I didn't know.

And spinach: I don't hear you enough!

[mykonian]

can you explain why you don't think I'm scum anymore?

It looks like backtracking to me

this is why I pointed out why this couldn't be a discussion to get you lynched, but one to get your allignment out. I have never had an idea what your allignment was. Attacking you, and seeing your response under pressure could be a solution.

The fact that I did this while, like you said, Alv must be the lynch (as I argued before), but suddenly I go for you. This must have had a goal


@Einlanzers: I wasn't going to respond, but here we go: I believe one wants to pressure scum mostly. Also, I think one must want to end with your vote on scum. What you do with your vote when a lynch isn't really the point, is up to the user of the vote. Personal preference, of course, which is why I didn't want to argue about it.

[mykonian]

swimmer, lets put it this way: you might not get away with an tunnel-playstyle in every game, but you seem to have support from Einlanzers.

[ic]Biggest counterpoint is that you withhold information that could lead to scum on other players from the town (antitown), and that you miss it yourself, and that as scum it is easy to go on about a mistake one townie made.[/ic]

[mykonian]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

Like I said, I didn't make up anything. I never have to. Players, esspecially newbies make enough mistakes to build up a decent case against them. Mistakes, as in not telling the rest of the town what you are thinking, and seeming disinterested in all the game except one player Believe me, even as scum, I will not lie in my cases.

And you should check mafia discussion, I think Thestatusquo made a nice article about it. I could look it up for you after school.

[mykonian]

I've never really heard of making up stuff to attack someone as a reason to out their alignment, but whatever. I'll drop it for now.

Anyways, Alv lied, townies died. Not unvoting.

Like I said, I didn't make up anything. I never have to. Players, esspecially newbies make enough mistakes to build up a decent case against them. Mistakes, as in not telling the rest of the town what you are thinking, and seeming disinterested in all the game except one player Believe me, even as scum, I will not lie in my cases.

And you should check mafia discussion, I think Thestatusquo made a nice article about it. I could look it up for you after school.

[mykonian]

Lets see if I can post a shorter defense on PCE's attacks.

on the AS claim thing, my attack came later. Post 21, as claimed, was an explanation.

My problem, as stated later too, with the pierre attacks is that after the initial points, the fact that pierre overreacted or underreacted in defense got added to the case (in the same way I argued with Swimmer), and with newbies, I am not going to let such things count for a lot, esspecially when I did feel the person was town.

And part of my job as IC is to compliment a good player. Further, it is imperfect play to show a towny list, but not a scummy one.

Also, I found it hypocritical I was attacked for defending, while swimmer did so indirectly with S2R, ignoring most of the case on him. This had nothing to do with thinking they are both scum, since I almost never accuse someone of being scum if the other person is so, before I know that allignment for sure.

On the deadline lynch stuff: we were pretty much set on two targets, and Alv came up as a new one. I wanted to control the lynch, and on S2R, and then two days, in my experience, is short. So yes, I want to control lynches to get them on a person I believe should be lynched: that is town

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.


To see that this attack on swimmer couldn't be a serious lynch attack, look at the start of it. I was convinced alv had lied, but suddenly all out attacked swimmer, avoiding Alv completely, also when swimmer tried to point me that way. To say that it was too long has nothing to do with how serious it was. The lenght of it is more affected by the amount of people reacting (close to noone, sadly) then with the seriousness. Seriousness of attacks is determined by the points presented.




About OMGUS: it is imperfect play, but townies do it just as often as scum, making it a bad tell. Conclusion, don't do it, don't let yourself be convinced by it too easily.

[mykonian]

I know that this is fairly short, if you want to know more on a particular point (please, not all), please ask, then we can get quotes and stuff with it.

[mykonian]

@Einlanzers: I wasn't going to respond, but here we go: I believe one wants to pressure scum mostly. Also, I think one must want to end with your vote on scum. What you do with your vote when a lynch isn't really the point, is up to the user of the vote. Personal preference, of course, which is why I didn't want to argue about it.

Well I think this is pretty obvious to everyone. You want to pressure scum until they crack and you want the person that you are voting for to be scum in the end. And the last bit about lynching being personal preference doesn't make any sense to me. Of course you want to lynch scum and of course it's your option who you vote for.... This isn't a response to ANYTHING I directed at you. I just stated that I don't like your vote/pressure/unvote (repeat) gamestyle.. it is not suited for anything after RvS and doesn't help town in the end.
You keep on spewing off game semantics instead of answering direct questions. This is a pretty big scum tell for ICs... as they like to look helpful, but not give actual opinions. But still... not even enough for a FoS from me...yet.

TBH, you have quite a record of posting about semantics. I am sorry if I didn't answer your question in the way you could understand. I think I have also said that I believe only your last vote should be on scum, and what you do before that (gaining information, pressuring scum), is pretty much up to the user. If I want to use my vote to get a view on Swimmers alignment, then that is not at all scummy. What you ask from me, to stick with my vote right from the start of day two, is in my opinion not a great way to play, since a vote is a powerful tool. I haven't done anything antitown with it, more information on players is generally a good thing (better lynches)

what is the weirdest about your argument is that you accuse me of two things:

spewing semantics
using my vote for information gathering (pressure)

I think those contradict, and I am fine with the second thing. The first is part of my job, I'm afraid. But also, to say that I have mostly been arguing semantics is quite a bad way to put it. I think I have mostly argued about the game, actually. At least a lot.

[mykonian]

vote alviaran

get this going. The game is going slower and slower, and already during the start of the day we were pretty sure going to lynch alv. Now that with Einlanzers is over, I don't think there is any discussion going worth waiting for.

Lets see what happens next.

[mykonian]

Spinach, I know I am not allowed to correct you on your scumplay, but why not bus him good? A FoS is so... wishy washy. People will get that it only serves a purpose to be turned into a vote when the situation gets hopeless.

And then you are too late. Because everybody will see your jump on the wagon, for poor reasons, and while it is on scum, the whole series of posts before it show your connection to alv.

I know you aren't going to react to this post, don't worry. Maybe if you don't it goes away...

[mykonian]

Great too you are buddying to Swimmer. He has only reacted to me, never analysed my play, since you are the first one.

So now Myk has accused two players of "buddying up" with me. This tingles my spider sense.

He unvotes me because he thinks I'm town, but then he keeps throwing these little subtle jabs at people, implying he still thinks I'm town.

What's up with this myk? Wasn't your aggressive attack on me supposed to tell you my alignment? Why are you dropping subtle hints that you still think I'm scum?

Buddying up is the scumtactic to be nice to a certain towny, agree with him, so he will like you too (it works). Scum makes a connection with town that way, and is less likely to be lynched.

and I know nothing for sure

[mykonian]

avoiding a NK is something only very good scumhunters can, and should do. Usually, from day 2 they want to come in action.

This isn't happening with spinach. He doesn't scumhunt.

[mykonian]

the way this day started, I think we should go for Alv. We had some small tells, in the end of day 1 he was too much busy with looking good (PCE's case), the lie that he didn't know he was lynching S2R, but thought he would lynch swimmer shows no intent to tell the truth.

And townies should never lie.

Does anyone need a summary Einlanzer style? Because I think it wouldn't be read, so I don't do it. But I believe alv should be our lynch, esspecially because of the obvious lying.

[mykonian]

Pierre, I have one question:

do you want to be lynched?

Since no-one cares if you are "active", if you don't do a thing. You are supposed to search for scum, so please do that, in stead of posting that you haven't fallen in front of a train.

Same counts for Alv's last post, but I have seen it happen a few times now with you.

[mykonian]

do you want to be lynched?

While I agree Pierre is scummy and should be pressured as a scum...I don't agree with your line of questioning. Do you really think ANYONE would answer "yes" to this? Or are you just hoping that he will infer "Why shouldn't you be lynched?" from it?

The answer is obvious, and is therefore this isn't expected to be answered. It is a rhetorical question.

[mykonian]

I haven't looked over Spinach with as much scrutiny as myk, pierre or alv. Will have to do that.

Myk, just because someone agrees with my logic doesn't mean they're buddying up. I think its a little scummy that anyone "agreeing" with me or thinking that your whole case against me was wrong is suddenly portrayed as scummy. Another reason why I think you made up the silly "I was just trying to figure out your alignment" case.

Alv is by far the best choice for the lynch. I'm also down for a pierre or myk lynch, but prefer Alv. Pierre I'm beginning to feel is just horribly horribly newbish and is refusing to learn from his mistakes. Possible scum cover? maybe...but this is the stuff that makes towns lose at lylo. We should've lynched him day 1

I gave it as a possibility, for that reason, since buddying arguements are very hard to make, and often come from the same feelings that also start omgus votes. Further, if you finally read the start of my argument against you, you see that it wouldn't make any sense to get you lynched. Now, if you assume I am not stupid, you know I was trying to find out your allignment.

But you never even argued that point, you just keep going on how your feelings tell you I am scum. I think you don't want to argue that point, since it shows that point is in my favor.

[mykonian]

alv, why did you lie?

[mykonian]

confirm vote alviaran

?

I don't understand the meaning of that question.

[mykonian]

yes, I seriously begin to doubt myself here. Spinach made absolutely no sense there.

[mykonian]

He lied by saying the thought he hammered swimmer day 1, in stead of S2R.

[mykonian]

oh, einlanzers, I am so happy you killed me. I would have gone straight for spinach/swimmer. I would never have caught you.

Just something I should have warned you about before: I almost never make succesful lynches. I can make pretty cases and all, but following me is far worse then random lynching. This was another sad example

Further, this last day took a little long, which is how the rest of the game seemed to me too. Town really wants to scumhunt, and from some people I didn't see this. A little bit more activity could be better. For pierre: I think you would be better of with playing another newby and try to be a little more active. Further, finding scum is something people must get some experience with. Tells are nice, but mostly for arguing. You got to find out what people actually are scum by looking at everything. Tells are just indicators that work sometimes. You won't become a good scumhunter overnight, you'll have to play a lot of games before.

More serious games that most of you will be ready for are mini normals and open games. Those setups have a few more roles, and the players are generally better.

[mykonian]

Wow. Didn't I make some mention of PCE possibly being scum because he was too helpful? Ha!

Einlanzers never showed on my radar though.

And by the way, I never did lie. I really did make newbie mistakes. That's why if I get into another game any time soon, I'll be doing it in the newbie forum for obvious reasons.

you know you are making those mistakes, that is enough to play in mini normals Seriously, you are ready for it.