Newbie 869 - Game over

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Post Post #475 (isolation #0) » Mon Jan 11, 2010 12:09 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Good day.

I believe that I'm meeting you all for the first time. You're welcome to call me Zorblag, Zorb, Z or Troll, whichever you like. If you're interested in my play you can find links to all of the games I've played here in my wiki (the link is at the bottom of this post.) I see that we're in an interesting spot and that SensFan has already passed on the investigation results he had from the first two nights.

At this point the best move we can make is to no lynch. The lack of a night kill last night for whatever reason gave us the flexibility to use a single no lynch or to use a doctor protection to extend the game one day. Assuming that there's not a doctor other than jee (and they should have claimed by now if there was one as it be a sure town win) we aren't going to get an extra day from doctor protection as either there's no doctor at all or the scum have no reason not block or kill jee. We get the best results out of a no lynch by using it sooner rather than later (any benefits we gain carry on to future days if you're looking at it from an odds standpoint) so it's better to use that option now than it is to wait to use it tomorrow.

Further, it's best to do the no lynching before any more discussion takes place. Based on the results of last night it's pretty clear that we're better off if we don't give the remaining scum any extra information about what the right choices for tonight would be. I'll be happy to talk about what's happened so far and what I think it means tomorrow if I'm still around but for right now there's no reason at all not to no lynch and potentially force the scum to do some of our work for us.

Vote: No Lynch


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Post Post #479 (isolation #1) » Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:05 am

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Welcome to the game, Pulindar.

Vel-Rhan Koon has announced you as a replacement in The Newbie Queue. The lack of introduction here is almost certainly an oversight on his part and you're probably fine to start posting whenever you'd like.

Deer is right that you should probably claim whether you're the doctor or not before we do anything else. If you do claim doctor then we'll need to decide what to do; otherwise a no lynch is our best choice for today with conversation picking up tomorrow. If you've read the game then hopefully that makes sense.

In any case, if you've got any questions feel free to ask.

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Post Post #483 (isolation #2) » Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:11 am

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@Pulindar, do hold onto whatever it was you had to say about everything. We will want to have a full discussion tomorrow. The reason that we should go with the no lynch with no further discussion today is that any extra discussion we have helps the scum figure out what night actions will be best to manipulate us into mislynches. If they don't know what we're thinking then it's harder to make it look like they're meet whatever incorrect expectations we might have. That goes for both who we think is likely to be the remaining scum and what we think scum or town should be doing after today.

I'm not trying to cut off conversation stop the town from sharing good ideas. That should happen but it should happen starting tomorrow. I'm trying to cut off conversation that makes it easier for the scum to find a route to victory; we want to make them work and sweat as much as we can and at this point that means voting for a no lynch and ending today before having any other discussion.

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Post Post #493 (isolation #3) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:06 am

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Last night I investigated Deer and got a no result. That means that there is a roleblocker in the game and hence there is a doctor. Unless anyone counter claims jee (and someone else is the doctor they should counter claim immediately as it will now give us the win) he's confirmed town. That works whether you believe my cop claim or not as if I'm scum then jee can't be the other mafia.
Barring another doctor claim there should be no votes for jee from here on out.


jee, there's probably no reason to reveal who you investigated last night as it was someone other than totallynotmafia and that information doesn't help us find scum today. Given the past couple nights there's still some chance that your protection will come into play tonight and we've got no reason to give the scum insight into your thought process.

I investigated Deer last night because I figured that the scum's night actions would either clear up some power role issues and so I might as well go ahead and assume that everyone was telling the truth to being with and investigate someone that was still left blank based on the information we had. I picked Deer over Pulindar because Deer seemed more eager than I liked to lynch jee despite the doctor claim not being particularly unbelievable. The other option I considered investigating Nachomamma8 to see about confirming jee's protection clearing (which is less robust than an investigation.)

Now that I'm sure of some more things and we're not in a spot where there's a reason to stop conversation I owe everyone a take on the game. I'll be looking things over and I should have that for you later today.

If anyone has questions for me I'm now happy to answer them; I'll probably have some to ask of most of you in a bit.

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Post Post #495 (isolation #4) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:41 pm

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It should be clear from the context what I meant but in my last post clearly I should have said that jee has no reason to reveal who he protected last night rather than who he investigated.

At this point, from my point of view, there are really only three people who could be our final scum: Deer, Nachomamma8 and Pulindar. Taking a look at each of the three player spots in turn here's what I see:

Deer
: The first mention he makes of Ellibereth is to excuse his being on an early wagon because he's new and might not know any better (Post 47.) After Deer's initial vote that lead to that early bandwagon he really doesn't do anything in the way of expressing his suspicions until Post 84 but rather spends some time defending against attacks. Actually that vote for jee in Post 84 is essentially just based on his self defense. From there to the vote for DarkLightA we've got some more defending of Ellibereth against SensFan's slip idea (Post 140) but the only reasons that I seem to find for the vote are that DarkLightA hasn't explained things well enough and the whole DarkLightA always finds SensFan suspicious thing. By the end of the day Deer's stance is that he doesn't think that Ellibereth looks innocent and that he'll have no trouble going after him next.

On day two he Deer opens with suspicions of Ellibereth and jee but he wants to hear from Ellibereth before he casts a vote. He doesn't get around to voting for Ellibereth until his hammer (Post 341) which in only comes after SensFan has already claimed cop with a guilty on Ellibereth. Deer didn't cast any other votes on day two but did apparently now find Ellibereth's place on the early day one bandwagon suspicious which seems to be a change from his initial reaction. When Ellibereth claims cop Deer is instantly ready to move suspicion away unless there's a counter claim.

On day three I actually like that Deer doesn't want Mr. Finch to claim unless he's under more pressure; that's the right move for town to want. Post 391 is interesting as it's the first time in the entire game where it looks like Deer is making a real effort to make cases on anyone that I can see. He spends a fair amount of energy defending SensFan (and by default going after Nachomamma8) on day three which is interesting to me. Towards the end of the day he's back on thinking that jee is suspicious and that lynching him is a better choice than a no lynch (despite the fact that night actions were pretty likely to clear up the status of at least one of the claims via one of us getting lynched) though he did seem fine with lynching Nachomamma8 instead if that was an option.

Nachomamma8, Tuberkulos , Kami-Sama
: Kami-Sama wasn't really around enough to do much of anything. It's noteworthy that in his three posts he did manage to list Ellibereth as his number one suspect but he got around to doing more than FoSing him. Tuberkulos was even less of a part of the game. That leaves Nachomamma8 as the only real actor from this player spot.

Nachomamma8 enters the game after Ellibereth has already made his cop claim day two. He starts out with an attack on SensFan for tunneling on Ellibereth and some praise of Ellibereth's scum hunting. From there on, day two he pretty much keeps constant pressure on SensFan until SensFan's cop claim at which point he switches immediately to Ellibereth and sounds surprised that SensFan would think that he would readily believe him.

Day three we've got an initial defense of jee against Deer's suspicion and a vote for Mr. Finch with a guessing game for the reasons which Nachomamma8 apparently forgets the reasons for before explaining them. After that we have a week where nothing really happens and then he's back to attacking SensFan again. It's interesting that his vote stays there even when he's saying that lynching an un-counter claimed cop or doctor is the worst thing that could be done in that situation. I hate the plan he suggests in Post 445 (i.e. agreeing to help lynch the un-counter claimed doctor with the expectation that people will then lynch the un-counter claimed cop the next day unless they can refute his argument.) I like that he's the first one to seriously push for the no lynch that ended up happening.

Pulindar, Mr. Finch
: Mr. Finch is another player who found Ellibereth's early bandwagon on RPG*Twilight suspicious but used an FoS rather than a vote (though he was willing to cast a random vote earlier and in fact unvoted that to put down the FoS.) He does address the issues that come up and seems to be both talking about theory as well as his suspicions which is a nice mix. His interactions with Ellibereth don't feel as though they're substantially different than his interactions with anyone else. The biggest complaint I have about his early play is that he doesn't get around to his first non-random vote till Post 138 but with the activity he's showing that's pretty minor. The accidental hammer is interesting but mostly because he'd talked about DarkLightA relatively little.

Ellibereth seems to hang around the top of his scum lists without ever getting voted though some of that is happening while Ellibereth has an un-countered cop claim on day two. I pretty much like what I've seen from Pulindar thus far though I'm interested in seeing the longer posts he's hinted at. Hopefully he'll get them in before his drive.

Thoughts
: Of the three I like the Mr. Finch/Pulindar spot the best. It seems a fair amount more likely to me that our scum is one of Deer and Nachomamma8. Both of them have stretches where it looks like they're defending Ellibereth. Both of them vote for him for the first time as soon as his cop claim is countered by SensFan. Both spent a fair amount of time day three attacking un-counter claimed power roles and advocating their lynch. Where Deer was largely a non-presense during the first couple days of the game Nachomamma8 replaces into a spot for which his predecessors were even less around.

If the day were ending now I'd be willing to be the hammer on either of the two. I guess I find Deer slightly worse but it's really not by a lot.

@Deer, now that jee essentially has to be the doctor has that changed your opinion about my likelihood of being the cop?

@Nachomamma8, do you often forget what your case was going to be on someone you're casting a vote for? Do you even remember if you were voting for Mr. Finch for something you really thought was suspicious of was there some chance that it was a pressure vote of some sort?

@jee, at this point I'd like to hear your take on the state of the game; you pretty much have to be the doctor so I'd like to see you take an active role in leading the discussion as you're the one we know we can trust.

@Pulidar, if you've got the chance before you go I would like to see that post you had ready for yesterday. In any case, good luck with the drive. The closest I've done is to drive a moving truck from Madison to Seattle on my own but at least I was doing it during the summer rather than during a terrible terrible storm season.

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Post Post #498 (isolation #5) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:48 pm

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@Nachomamma8, thanks for answering the question. How do you expect the rest of us to react to you not remembering why you voted for Mr. Finch off hand? It must have been some reason that you had as you were able to say that it wasn't because of his lack of vote for Ellibereth. Would you be willing to go back and try to figure out what it might have been?

On a mostly unrelated note, what's your current take on our situation? It seems you were right to not want to lynch jee. What do you make of totallynotmafia's night kill and who do you think is scum?

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Post Post #501 (isolation #6) » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:19 pm

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@Nachomamma8, I've played with SensFan before. In particular SensFan was one of the ICs for my first newbie game. We were the scum team together. I don't care for his play much at all on a personal level (he's the only person that I can think of who I've voted for out of irritation in my entire tenure here and that was in spite of the fact that he was my scum partner at the time) but he does get results and he knows what he's doing. He comes across as an arrogant, self-righteous jerk and I think that's it's entirely intentional much of the time.

In this game he seems to have been trying to use his innate antagonism as a screen for his cop role. If he had managed to get Ellibereth lynched on sheer personality day two without resorting to his claim it would have been something; he came close enough. His cases outside beyond that have mostly been garbage though I wouldn't be surprised if he believed his day one read on DarkLightA. When he thinks he's right he believes it with conviction.

I think that SensFan got us into a position where we should be able to win this game. I'm glad that he did it while I wasn't here as if I had been in the game with him I would have been voting for him for his tactics as of day one (though I clearly have some bias.) Outside of going for the win he hasn't done the game any favors from an IC stance but at this point I'm in no position to knock that.

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Post Post #509 (isolation #7) » Sat Jan 16, 2010 4:21 pm

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@Nachomamma8, there's not a lot that's all that interesting about the interactions between Deer and totallynotmafia on day three. Deer was a bit softer on the stance that totallynotmafia had to be town than I might like but he essentially seemed to get that. totallynotmafia spent very little time looking at Deer but we know that he was town so that wasn't anything he was trying to pull off. I don't see Deer particularly trying to force his opinions on totallynotmafia nor do I see any clear manipulation. Was there some event in particular you had in mind? If so was it in posts 453 - 456? I can see an issue there which you might be hinting at but it's not really an interaction issue in my opinion.

@Deer and Pulindar, what were your takes on totallynotmafia getting killed last night? What do you think of Nachomamma8's reaction.

So I've been thinking about what might have happened during night 2. Unlike others I'm actually not so quick to dismiss the intentional no kill on it's own. I know that I've used it as mafia to good effect in the past (Night Two in Newbie Game 749.) In particular I was using it directly after my scum partner had been lynched in order to leave my options open a bit. In that game I knew that the power roles were all dead (the cop was mislynched day one and there was no doc) so I was leaving myself an option to claim doc with a successful protection on whoever seemed best at the time if it turned out to be useful down the line. In the end I didn't go with the fake claim but the no kill left it as a possibility for me.

The problem with this game is that we didn't have any power roles down. The scum knew that there was another power role out there that they hadn't identified as well as SensFan who they had. Trying to set up a fake doc claim is problematic as there was a game losing counter-claim waiting for them if they tried. The two closest things to legitimate plans that I've been able to come up with are:

1) Trying to get one of the two power roles lynched day three (either me as the cop who had a result when they should logically have been roleblocked or the doctor on the grounds that they could be setting up a convenient fake claim for them self with a no kill coupled with the fact that the cop wasn't roleblocked.)

2) Just trying to draw the doctor out so that they'd fully know the power roles and could deal with them better in the future. They wouldn't have a reason not to roleblock SensFan there.

Both of them are riskier than I would probably use as scum as they leave the very real possibility of losing outright if SensFan hit the scum with his investigation. As it was the investigation let SensFan clear an innocent which helped to narrow things down. If the first was the case then that might explain why at least one of you was eager to lynch an un counter-claimed power role yesterday. For the second one I guess we just have to assume that the scum forgot they could roleblock or something.

The other thing that could have happened is what others have mentioned; that the scum missed the deadline altogether. It seems unlikely that any of Deer, Mr. Finch or Nachomamma8 would have done that given that all three posted at least once elsewhere on the forums during that night phase. I supposes it's possible that they forgot but that it doesn't seem all that likely. The question is I suppose one of whether it's less likely than trying one of the plans I mentioned above (or something else I haven't thought of yet.)

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Post Post #510 (isolation #8) » Sat Jan 16, 2010 6:49 pm

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Er, and of course there's also the more obvious attempt to kill Nachomamma8 and get blocked by the doctor but for some reason not roleblock SensFan. In theory that roleblock could have been used on yet another player (and given that we're running out of players that list would be totallynotmafia, Deer, Mr. Finch and I guess maybe Nachomamma8) but that seems even less reasonable than forgetting to submit the roleblock. Maybe it was absent-mindedness or not realizing how the role works?

Clearly I need to let it churn in the back of my mind some more.

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Post Post #512 (isolation #9) » Sat Jan 16, 2010 7:56 pm

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@Deer, the problem is that I don't like any of the scenarios that I went over. None of them are particularly good play so far as I can tell. The risk significantly outweighs the reward for the plan to try to get one of the power roles lynched and the rest all involve a fundamental mistake or misunderstanding of how things work. Either there's something that I'm not seeing or the scum made a bad play on night two when there were obvious good plays to make as well as other bad plays that should have been more tempting (trying to kill SensFan and roleblocking hoping to hit the doc for example.)

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Post Post #519 (isolation #10) » Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:15 pm

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An outed cop needs to play a bit of a tricky game when deciding who they're going to investigate. With just a goon dead they don't have any reason to believe that they won't die during the night (if there's no doctor) or get roleblocked (if there is a doctor) so the investigation attempt really has to be made with the assumption that the scum will be doing something non-standard on their own with their actions. totallynotmafia wasn't an obvious cop investigation but he was someone that Ellibereth interacted with a fair amount so he was probably a decent choice; he wasn't too likely to get night killed on the off chance that the investigation worked.

As far as totallynotmafia getting killed last night goes, it shouldn't be all that surprising. I'd say it was the third best choice. If jee or I didn't get killed then totallynotmafia was the reasonable kill as they were a confirmed innocent. So long as the kill went through it's actually equivalent to having killed jee; once I got roleblocked last night either one is confirmed town that the mafia can kill any night they want to. Going for totallynotmafia over jee was a bit riskier for the scum as there was some chance that jee would protect totallynotmafia. The best choice would probably have been to kill me and roleblock jee as that would have left a cleared totallynotmafia and a pretty dubious jee who would have made a likely mislynch.

Deer largely seemed to recognize the implications with his answer when I asked about it. I couldn't particularly tell for Nachomamma8. Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me though I suppose after the kill night two I should make more allowances for what I think isn't the obvious play.

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Post Post #525 (isolation #11) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:37 pm

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@jee, taking a look at that comment from Mr. Finch (the roleblocker might have roleblocked SensFan and not submitted a kill) I think that if the roleblocker was under the impression that they could only do one thing or the other for whatever reason they really should have chosen to roleblock SensFan rather than anyone else (if you're not killing there's no need to block the doctor.) Without having heard from SensFan yet about his investigation results I think that's a good thing to have thought of to explain the no kill. A roleblocker would have clearly had the chance to think through their opportunities and might be a bit more likely to come up with it but I don't think it's at all unreasonable for town to have thought of it either.

@Nachomamma8, I don't know that I'm quite sure what statement of Pulidar's I pointed out that you might find scummy. Was it perhaps his answer to the question of what he made of the scum kill?

@Deer, I have some trouble believing that you went from finding Nachomamma8 quite a bit more scummy than Pulindar in Post 505 to voting for him in Post 522 apparently just because he's expressed worries about getting lynched or killed during the night. In that span Nachomamma8 posted three times and Pulindar posted twice. That's a very large apparent change of opinion for that short a stretch. Was there really no other reason for it?

The case that I see against you consists mainly of the following:

1. Defending Ellibereth day one.
2. Consistently having Ellibereth high on your list of suspects without actually moving to lynch him until after it was obviously going to happen at which point you hammered.
3. Wanting to move away from any suspicion of Ellibereth on day two after his cop claim barring a counter claim. That's an even bigger deal given that there's a roleblocker in the game and that so far as they knew there was a decent chance of there not being any power roles at all and if there were it serves to draw one out.
4. Wanting to lynch an un-counter claimed power role the next day in jee.
5. It looks like you're trying to find the wagon other than yourself that will gain traction today.

I'm not sure if that's what the others are working with but I'm happy to see you address those points. We don't seem to be moving along very quickly at this point and I think that you've got a pretty reasonable chance of being scum here. After you've had a chance to say anything you'd like and the other have had their chance to input I'm probably ready to hammer. If the deadline were going to be an issue I wouldn't have any trouble hammering now but so long as the game is moving forward there's no need to rush things.

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Post Post #527 (isolation #12) » Sat Jan 23, 2010 5:12 am

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And with that post any hesitation I might have had about hammering is gone. I'll give people today a chance to say whatever they'd like to and I'll hammer this evening. I would have no problem with Pulindar hammering instead if he'd like, I'm just giving everyone a courtesy day to post.

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Post Post #529 (isolation #13) » Sat Jan 23, 2010 3:43 pm

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Vote: Deer


Ideally we've now won the game and everything I say after this doesn't matter. If we haven't then remember that so long as the scum kills tonight tomorrow will by LyLo (if there's no kill then we're at MyLo and probably we want to no lynch but we can talk about that then and see what information we've got.) If we're in LyLo then it'll be important that no one vote unless you're sure about someone being scum or there's been enough time for debate that you aren't going to get more useful information. Any vote from one member of the town to another will result in an immediate loss as soon as the scum has a chance to log in and hammer.

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Post Post #536 (isolation #14) » Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:03 pm

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So last night I investigated NachoMamma8 and was blocked. I'll have more to talk about later but I'm fairly busy at the moment and I figured I should get that out for now.

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Post Post #544 (isolation #15) » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:47 pm

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I apologize for not having been about essentially since the day started. I had some things come up in RL but I should now be about for the rest of the game. I'll be taking a look at both of you in depth sometime tomorrow.

It is interesting how the two of you describe my play as I don't find the two descriptions to be particularly similar. I don't think that I've been as controlling as Pulindar seems to be saying I have (I was trying to talk about what had happened in the game and figure out my take on them but that doesn't mean that I expect everyone to simply agree with what I say.) On the other hand, I do think that I've been a bit hesitant with my reads this game as NachoMamma8 suggests; moreso than my normal play at least. That's primarily because there are big parts of the game that just haven't make sense to me in terms of what we've had for night actions from the scum. Yesterday I was trying to watch the flow of the game to get a feel for how likely Deer or NachoMamma8 were to fit that play at all based on what they did with my thoughts on the game; unfortunately it didn't lead to much.

I can clear up why I was ready to hammer Deer after Post 526. Basically, the case on Deer was at least as strong as the case on anyone and we didn't seem to be making much progress. If he wasn't interested in defending himself then I didn't have any reason to extend the day rather than try for the win. Town shouldn't just give up like that; scum on the other hand have some motivation to make that sort of appeal to emotion if they know they're almost certainly going to get lynched anyhow.

Based on both of your last couple posts it looks like I'll be presenting a case as to why I'm not scum today as much as I'll be trying to figure out which of the two of you is. Are there any questions in particular that either of you have for me that you'd like to see addressed?

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Post Post #548 (isolation #16) » Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:11 pm

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Hmm, I can't do anything much to justify SensFan's choices for night investigations. I don't overly think that they're the ones that I would have made myself. Having said that I have an almost hilariously bad record with being a cop. In every game that I've ever played where I had any sort of investigation role during a given night one of four things has always happend: my target gets killed during the night making my investigation useless; I get killed during the night making my investigation useless; I get roleblocked during the night making my investigation useless; the game gets abandoned during the night making my investigation useless. I did talk a bit about my thoughts on the night two investigation in Post 519 and that's still my overall stance.

I've also got my thoughts on why I might not have been roleblocked out there in Post 509 but I do agree that it's hard to understand.

I do see what Pulidar means by controlling the game now but I'm not going to feel bad about it. The no lynch day three was the right move to make and I'll push for that every time. I don't think that I particularly gave people permission to start lynching deer on day four. I was the final vote on that and did say I was fine with you voting at the end but once someone hits L-1 in that position it's the players on his wagon that are letting the lynch happen, not the one who hammers.

I tend to think that it's better to be clear about what I think is scummy at this point in the game and give the reasons why. I don't know what I could say to convince anyone that wasn't scummy if they thought it was.

To answer NachoMamma8's specific questions:

1. Deer's defense of SensFan was interesting because it was something I didn't expect him to do if he was scum. Of all the things that I found noteworthy when looking over his play that one was the one that gave me the biggest pause. I had trouble seeing why he'd be so willing to believe one power role claim and not another that day when from his perspective there shouldn't have been a large difference between the chance of either of them being true. There's also a little bit of innate suspicion from me anytime someone defends my (or my role) in a spot when I don't think they should be sure of my alignment.

2. Post 519 talked a bit about what I thought the right move for scum would have been. I would have NK'd the cop or the doctor before going for the the confirmed innocent. Actually killing any of the three leaves exactly one confirmed town. If the kill gets blocked by the doctor on the confirmed innocent then there are two confirmed town (the doctor and the one the cop investigated.) The only good thing that the scum takes out of that is that the day starts again with an even number of players but it's not worth the risk. Unless I had a compelling reason to gamble (the confirmed innocent would change the game in a way that would cause me to lose or some such thing) I'd almost certainly go for the cop kill over the confirmed innocent kill.

3. Pulindar shouldn't have been worried about getting killed during night three. If the scum were making sensible moves he just wasn't going to get killed. He was at best a fourth best choice. And really a no kill would have been better for the mafia than him getting killed. The only reason that it should be worth considering as a legitimate threat is how tactically bad the night two actions were.

So here are the reasons that I can think of offhand to put out there as a defense of myself. You both site SensFan's play as something you don't like and I don't either blame you. I can't give you the reasons for the choices he made and you know it. What I can do is point out aspects of the play itself that disregard style that don't make sense to have been scum play. If any of them are unclear do ask and I'll explain them further.

1. For SensFan to have been scum he would have had to have decided to bus his partner right from the get go. He was on Ellibereth at the start of day one and, although he did leave to lynch DarkLightA on day one he was right back on day two and never left the spot.

2. SensFan would not only have bussed his partner, he would have done it by countering their claim with exactly the same claim. That's essentially a waste of the first fake claim which should (with no cop in the game and without the pressure SensFan was applying) have carried the scum at least till day three if not till the end of the game.

3. As scum SensFan's claimed investigation on totallynotmafia on day three after no kill the previous night clears another townie that he didn't have to clear. Given that there was a doctor in the game he would have to be a goon here; there weren't any other cop counter-claims (which would have won the game for town) so he knew there was a doctor regardless of whether he submitted a kill or not; he would have been better off claiming to have been roleblocked as he would have known that the doctor would be revealed eventually anyhow.

4. The night three kill on totallynotmafia would have been a worse move for me to make than a kill on jee.

Each of those moves was both unforced and something that would put us in noticeably worse position as scum than we would have been if they hadn't been made. Without looking taking play styles into account (you like mine, you dislike SensFans and, really, that's probably going to be true no matter what our alignments are), for you to believe that this player spot is scum you have to be willing to believe that two experienced players have intentionally made a series of moves that at each step made their position worse than it needs to be. You have to believe that we've maneuvered the game into a position where we're in LyLo and listed by the other two players as their top suspect.

I know it's WIFOM but I'm not that bad a player and neither is SensFan. We've got different approaches but we're both playing to win. The play from this spot, if it was scum, would not have been playing to our victory condition.

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Post Post #549 (isolation #17) » Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:11 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Having looked back over the game again I'm very much leaning towards NachoMamma8 being the roleblocker here. There's so much more that looks scummy from his play than from Pulindar's player spot and I think that he's a bit more likely to have come up with something like the plan to out the power roles without a roleblock than Mr Finch would have been to be confused about how the rules work (and I don't think that he was just faking Post 367.)

Here are the highlights on what I find scummy for NachoMamma8:

1. The interactions with Ellibereth. There's what looks like distancing from Kami-Sama (and very little else) and then what looks like a chainsaw defense from NachoMamma8 (attacking his partner's attacker in SensFan) starting from when he enters the game.

2. The vote for Ellibereth from NachoMamma8 as soon as it becomes clear that he's going to be the lynch.

3. The vote and guessing game with Mr. Finch at the start of Day Three and the fact that NachoMamma8 couldn't tell us why later on.

4. Leaving his vote on SensFan who was in some danger of being lynched day three despite the fact that he acknowledges that lynching an un-counter claimed power role is the worst move that town could make that day.

5. The fact that he even suggests lynching jee on Day Three in exchange for having people be willing to lynch SensFan on Day Four.

My guess is that after he didn't get he cop mislynch on Day Three he laid off on this player spot Day Four because Deer was the obvious easier lynch of the two of us given the reactions to my play. He made some show of looking at Pulindar's player slot but when it didn't catch on he's falling back on the suspicion of me via everything he had built up on SensFan from before to end the game because Pulindar looks like he's more likely to cast a misvote of the two of us.

Pulindar's spot does have a couple of things hanging out there (Mr. Finch's somewhat timid play overall, the overdeveloped worry about being killed on Pulindar's part, Pulindar's reluctance to cast votes, the vaguely questionable hammer day two) but I don't think there's any reason for him to be playing this cautious a game as scum. He would have inherited a position under little suspicion and despite being examined since he's arrived I don't see anything that sticks out as overly scummy or opportunistic. I don't see as clear a way to make sense out of a plan for scum from that spot as I do from NachoMamma8's.

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Post Post #553 (isolation #18) » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:29 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Pulindar, That's pretty unsettling.

You weren't willing to vote before but now that you've seen me say that I suspect NachoMamma8 you're ready? I don't understand how that change makes you ready to vote.

I don't see why you think that NachoMamma8's reason for being willing to lynch either of the two of SensFan or Ellibereth as soon as SesnFan claimed cop. Scum look better when they join the wagon there than if they stay off it. The fact is that that he didn't do anything to lynch the actual scum until it was a foregone conclusion that they were going to get lynched.

Also, just to be clear, you don't think that NachoMamma8 as scum would have forgotten to roleblock SensFan but you do think that SensFan and I would bus a partner with an insane intensity from the start, ruin a perfectly good fake claim, not claim to have been roleblocked when there was no reason not to (and hence clear an extra townie) and make the worse choice of kills between jee and totallynotmafia? You're willing to rule out any possibility that it's a single gambit to draw out the doctor or a mistake on NachoMamma8's part in favor of the idea that my player spot has just consistently shot itself in the foot all game long?

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Post Post #555 (isolation #19) » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:16 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Pulindar, it's more than just the bussing from SensFan. I think that you're taking his abrasive behavior as an indication that he'd somehow be more likely to throw away the advantages that not having just one scum in the game brings but if that's your take on him then so be it. There's also the fact that if he was scum he chose not to claim he was roleblocked on Night Two.

He would have known that there was a doctor because he there wouldn't be a cop in the game (if there was they just counter-claim him and he looses at that point) which means that he would have to be a goon as we know that there was a doctor. If he's claiming cop and he knows that there's going to be a doctor claim (or death) eventually he would have every reason to claim that he was roleblocked if he was scum. If you're saying tha the was scum then unless you think that he forgot that (and he's played a lot of newbie games and knows how the power roles and this setup work) you have to think that he made the choice to go with the strictly worse option of giving an innocent result on someone which both cleared an innocent then and left this issue open to come back and bite him later on.

That would be just horrible play. Someone relatively new to the game either forgetting that they could roleblock or thinking that they had some advantage to be gained from not roleblocking really shouldn't seem less likely.

Not roleblocking SensFan on the scums part was just poor play that could only be an accident or a result of them thinking that they were playing the odds in a way that potentially sets up a situation like this one. Perhaps especially so NachoMamma8's part given that he had a very real chance of being the target of the investigation. On the other hand, SensFan not faking being roleblocked if he was scum doesn't even have a potential gambit that can help him out. It simply unnecessarily clears another townie and leaves a huge hole in his cop claim that he can't give any easy explanation to later.

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Post Post #557 (isolation #20) » Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:34 am

Post by Zorblag »

I had hoped that NachoMamma8 would have a chance to reply to my last couple posts before he went on his school trip but it appears that wasn't the case.

@Pulidar, while we've got time, what did you think about the points that I've said are scummy about NachoMamma8? You don't seem to have addressed them in particular during your voting and unvoting for me. Apparently you didn't find them compelling enough to vote but did you think that they just aren't scummy or that I (and SensFan) have simply been scummier?

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Post Post #559 (isolation #21) » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:01 am

Post by Zorblag »

Hmm, I guess I've got a couple points about the night two scum action after going back and looking over it once more as it seems to be the key issue for you.

First off I wonder what makes you so sure that NachoMamma8 was clearly the one that SensFan was going to investigate. He spends all of day two attacking Ellibereth and never really talks about his other suspects. You seem to be assuming that he would be sure to investigate NachoMamma8 just because he expected NachoMamma8 not to want to believe his cop claim right when he made it. There's certainly a difference between thinking someone won't believe your claim and thinking that person is likely guilty. I don't know that NachoMamma8 would have had the same reason to fear being investigated that you think he would have.

Second, take a look at NachoMamma8's reaction right after SensFan's posts his result that totallynotmafia is innocent. It's in Post 384.
NachoMamma8 wrote:Only mafia (and the doctor) know if there is a doctor right now. If there is a doctor, there is a Mafia Roleblocker as well. Mafia Roleblockers can kill and roleblock on the same night.

So, answer me this: What kind of Mafia would NOT roleblock the claimed cop, and still try to kill him?
It's an hour after, we've got one post between the claim and this post (which was a one liner from NachoMamma8 asking if that was the investigation result) is already a vote for SensFan. Right off the bat NachoMamma8 is working with the idea that there must be a doctor to try to cast that reasonable result as a point against SensFan. If SensFan was scum he would have claimed to have been roleblocked. NachoMamma8, as town, should have been confused by what happened with that claim, not simply ready to jump on something that didn't make sense to try to get the un-counter claimed power role lynched.

If NachoMamma8 was scum on the other hand, he set the situation up so that he could make that attack as soon as SensFan came out with his claimed innocent. The assumption that the doctor must have protected SensFan as well is a nice touch; we haven't had a doctor claim yet and throwing that in gives added confusion until that issue is resolved. It increases the chances that the doctor will claim to clear up who it was they protected.

SensFan clearing totallynotmafia as a way to clear himself doesn't particularly work as a reason to do it. There's no way that anyone should be able to count on a player being fooled for the rest of the game simply by clearing them as an innocent while an unconfirmed cop. The idea that SensFan intentionally went that route rather than using the roleblock which would make much more sense down the line doesn't add up. Scum don't need to look good on a given day nearly as much as they need to make sure that they don't end up getting lynched by the end of the game. The fact that SensFan wasn't roleblocked is a huge part of the reason that I'm in this position now. I know I'm harping on this point here but it's just a terrible move for scum to make not to claim to be roleblocked in that situation.

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Post Post #561 (isolation #22) » Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:39 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Pulindar, there's certainly no reason to rush your vote. I'm going to want to hear NachoMamma8's reaction to what I've said about him and the interactions that we've had since he posted last before I do any voting anyhow so your voting doesn't get things going any faster than his return does.

As for who I'd have investigated on Night Two, I probably would have investigated someone who wasn't likely to get night killed that I didn't have a strong read on. I don't know that I would have worried that much about picking who beyond those criteria as I would have been assuming that I'd be dead or roleblocked no matter who I submitted fpr my investigation. Certainly NachoMamma8 might have been the investigatee but he spent the entire time since his entrance attacking this player slot and he was the one SensFan had mentioned with his last post so there was probably a bit much attention on him at the time to make him a great choice.

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Post Post #563 (isolation #23) » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:03 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Welcome back from your trip, NachoMamma8. I'm about to go help someone with some calculus studying but I should have responses to what you've said this evening. In the meantime, any comments on anything other than what I've had to say?

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Post Post #567 (isolation #24) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:37 pm

Post by Zorblag »

OK, I do still need to address what NachoMamma8 said in his last big post but I think that I'm interested in hearing what Pulindar has in terms of reactions to it before I make a defense. He's been focused on one or two issues in particular in making his decision lately so far as I can see and I'd like to see if that gets more of a big picture response out of him.

For NachoMamma8's last post, I intentionally went with a aggressive post 459 with no accompanying vote to see how both of you would react. I do think that it's more likely that NachoMamma8 is scum than Pulindar and I do mean that the things I noted are scummy in my read (I will expand on them in a bit) but the two big things I wanted to see was whether Pulindar would vote for NachoMamma8 because of it (he voted for me instead which was a surprise) and how defensively NachoMamma8 would react and whether he would vote for me (that was thrown off a bit by him not getting a chance to respond until after he got back from his trip but the lack of a vote to go with his response is interesting.) If it seemed like I was clearing Pulidar from what I said then I did what I wanted to.

@NachoMamma8, you can be sure that I've read it but what was it about SensFan's post 52 that makes you think that you were his top scum suspect other than Ellibereth who he had a guilty on? He said that he expected you to push for his lynch of Ellibereth's but you had spent your entire time in the game thus far saying he was scummy. I looked back and I don't see him saying that he thought you were scum at any point. I think that someone has been making a false connection there and it's what's sunk in as the overall thought process.

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Post Post #569 (isolation #25) » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:16 pm

Post by Zorblag »

@NachoMamma8, scum probably wouldn't have a reason not to lynch their buddy at the end of day two if they were in your place given how inevitable the lynch was looking. Town on the other hand wouldn't have had any reason to believe SensFan's claim over Ellibereth's really. As you'd been after SensFan all game long he should be more likely to make that comment if he thought you were town than if you were scum because scum would be less likely to fight against an obvious place to bus.

The fact that you didn't vote for me is interesting because there wouldn't have been a lot of reason for you not to vote for me then if you were scum. I intended to make it look like my mind was made up. I assume you've taken interesting there to mean scummy, but really I meant interesting as, especially when combined with Pulindar's vote it does run counter to the actions I'd expect if I have things right.

As for clearing Pulindar, you've said that twice recently now. The first time made sense, the second time I'd just finished saying that I'd intentionally stated things in a strong manner to give that impression. I think you're more likely to be scum because I can a fair amount more from your player spot that I find scummy. If I really had Pulindar cleared then I'd have voted for him already.

I more or less know what I'm going to say in response to your post but as you say, Pulindar has been hanging back rather than scum hunting. Seeing his reactions before I point things out will help determine what it is he's looking at and how hard. Those are things that I'm pretty interested in at this point.

I've also got another game which I think is a bit closer to something important that I need to look at a fair amount tonight so there is a bit of stalling for time in my preference here just so that I can get that done. My response to your post is going to take time as you mention a number of things that I'd like to address.

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Post Post #573 (isolation #26) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:29 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Yeah, I'm ready to get that out now, just give me a bit to take a short break from the boards and then type it out. Pulindar's response to what you'd had to say was pretty in line with what he's been giving us up till now; I just wanted to see if it would be.

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Post Post #574 (isolation #27) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:17 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Nachomamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: I know it's WIFOM but I'm not that bad a player and neither is SensFan. We've got different approaches but we're both playing to win. The play from this spot, if it was scum, would not have been playing to our victory condition.
SensFan's play was definitely not playing to a town victory condition, either. And from how distracted he seemed the whole game, and how weird the night actions have been turning out, it makes the most sense that it would be his fault...
By this I assume that you mean you didn't like his playstyle. He came reasonably close to getting scum lynched without needing to make his cop claim and he played a game that was particularly unlikely to see him lynched as a town power role. What is it exactly that you think was him playing against his win condition as town there?
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: what looks like a chainsaw defense from NachoMamma8
If you're calling it a chainsaw defense, then I suggest you pick apart the attack itself. You yourself said that you would've pushed for his lynch Day 1, after all.
A chainsaw defense is a defense where scum attacks their partners attacker. It's job is to draw attention away from scum under attack. That SensFan's play is something that I inherently find irritating and worth voting for on day one doesn't make your attack of him when he was going after Ellibereth any less of a chainsaw defense.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: The vote for Ellibereth from NachoMamma8 as soon as it becomes clear that he's going to be the lynch.
As I said that day, I didn't care who was going to be lynched, considering a mafia member would be dead soon enough. And I knew that it was no use resisting, since the town was thoroughly convinced at that point.
And your having said that after the fact does nothing to diminish from the fact that that's exactly where scum would want to bus. Just because you say you aren't scum bussing doesn't make it any less likely.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: 3. The vote and guessing game with Mr. Finch at the start of Day Three and the fact that NachoMamma8 couldn't tell us why later on.
Unusual, yes. Scummy how?
Come day three town should have reasons to be lynching people. Scum on the other hand just need to get town lynched. If you were town and had a strong enough reason to vote for Mr. Finch to open the day then you really should have been able to remember what it was. If you were scum and were waiting for SensFan to give his result on someone then you just need a place to park your vote till that happens.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: 4. Leaving his vote on SensFan who was in some danger of being lynched day three despite the fact that he acknowledges that lynching an un-counter claimed power role is the worst move that town could make that day.
Sens was in absolutely no danger of being lynched that day unless there was a combination of an overly stupid townie + an overly stupid mafioso. And had that combination happened, I'm pretty damn sure we would've been able to figure out who mafia was during that LyLo, if a LyLo even occured...
If you're mafia you've got every reason to try to let a slip like that happen. If you're town and you know that lynching an uncounter-claimed power role in that situation is a bad idea (which you explicitly said) then you've got no reason to leave the option open.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: 5. The fact that he even suggests lynching jee on Day Three in exchange for having people be willing to lynch SensFan on Day Four.
I've answered this before.
Having acknowledged that it happened and blaming it on frustration doesn't make it any less of a scum tell.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: I don't know that NachoMamma8 would have had the same reason to fear being investigated that you think he would have.
Hmm... then you might want to reread Sens's ISO 52...
This we've talked about. Anyone saying that SensFan was obviously going to investigate NachoMamma8 after day two is spinning the events in to their own advantage. SensFan did not indicate that he found NachoMamma8 scummy. He expected NachoMamma8 not to believe him and to want to vote for him. Town who had been acting like NachoMamma8 would be much more likely to exhibit that behavior than scum who would have been likely to bus their partner to end the day before any more damage could be done.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: NachoMamma8, as town, should have been confused by what happened with that claim, not simply ready to jump on something that didn't make sense to try to get the un-counter claimed power role lynched.
I'm not a fan of this quote. Right now, you're defining how I should've reacted, and yet you fail to explain WHY I should've responded with confusion.
I didn't explain it because it should be fairly obvious. Town shouldn't have a ready made explanation as to why the cop wasn't blocked. They shouldn't be sure about the status of the doctor and they shouldn't be sure about what the scum would do during the night. Scum who did know about the doctor (because they knew the cop claim wasn't being faked by scum) would have their story set and be ready to jump right away. As I said earlier, town should be trying to figure out what's going on; scum are trying to get their mislynches in.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: If NachoMamma8 was scum on the other hand, he set the situation up so that he could make that attack as soon as SensFan came out with his claimed innocent.
But why wouldn't I simply roleblock Sens and kill someone else? That makes tons more sense, considering I was the most likely to be investigated at that point.
Perhaps you'll tell me after the game why you didn't. As I've said, the best reason I can think of is that you were going with a gambit to try to draw out the doctor and get one of the two power roles lynched. Your immediate attack on SensFan's reveal of his investigation and your voting actions throughout day three all support that.
NachoMamma8 wrote:
Zorblag wrote: Certainly NachoMamma8 might have been the investigatee but he spent the entire time since his entrance attacking this player slot and he was the one SensFan had mentioned with his last post so there was probably a bit much attention on him at the time to make him a great choice.
Actually, investigating me would've been a great choice. Let's assume that you are truly the cop, for a moment. Thus, mafia would want to keep me alive since I happen to be the only person attacking the cop, meaning I most likely wouldn't be NK'd. Clearing me as innocent would also be beneficial to you because having a confirmed aggressive scumhunter is extremely beneficial to town, which is something that I'm sure SensFan, out of anyone, would've realized. Also, there would've been a high probability of me being mafia since, after all, I was attacking someone Sens knew was town, and arguing the lynch of someone he knew was scum.
If the mafia thought that you were likely to get investigated by the cop then you would have made a great night kill. That alone takes you away from being a good choice. Anything past that is just WIFOM. You would be worth considering but there were better choices to be made.
NachoMamma8 wrote:Now let's assume you're mafia. Fake investigating me would be a horrible choice. If you said I was guilty, then I would be lynched that Day, and you would've lost the next. If you said I was innocent, you would be clearing your main attacker, and validating his cases. So, Sens made an ally in someone who was a little quieter, and with someone whose top suspect was someone who seemed like an easy lynch.
Someone being town doesn't validate their case; if SensFan had been scum and faked investigated you with an innocent he wouldn't have been any worse off particularly. Well, he would have been worse off in that he would have known there was a doctor and he would have been making the decision to not claim to be roleblocked but that would have been better than any possible investigation result he could have faked in that situation.

I like how your last post calls for my defense rather than my response. I've responded to the defense you're trying to make against my points against you but you've added almost nothing that I need to defend against. You also aren't explaining why you went straight for SensFan on day three after he had a result. You don't provide any adequate reason for not remembering why it was you voted for Mr. Finch but rather try to brush it off by saying that it's not an issue. Your entire case on me seems to be that SensFan's play was scummy because of his playstyle and that he would have been sure to investigate you after day two but he didn't but rather was paying little enough attention to the game that he made an obvious mistake and cleared totallynotmafia instead.

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Post Post #575 (isolation #28) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:37 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Vote: NachoMamma8


@Pulindar, if you're scum then congratulations, you've fooled me. Or rather you've let NachoMamma8 fool me which amounts to the same thing. I don't think that's the case. I think that you're town and that this decision is going to come down to you. I've done my best to present both the reasons that I'm not scum and the reasons that NachoMamma8 is. I've tried to draw from the entire game for both of those.

You don't like SensFan's play which I can understand but look at his results. He got scum lynched when he had an investigation with almost no chance of getting night killed before that. You apparently don't like that I've directed the town towards the better moves a couple times (e.g. the no lynch on our first day in here) but that's my job as an IC and I don't regret doing it at all. I've tried to look at what's happened and give the most plausible interpretations which you seem to take as telling others what makes sense but I don't regret that either; it gives me a chance both to show how an experienced player thinks through the game and it makes my reasoning transparent down the road.

Your main reasons that you think NachoMamma8 isn't scum seems to be that you think that there's no way he would have failed to roleblock SensFan for a potential gambit because he would be afraid of an investigation and that he's been consistent about disliking SensFan's play. NachoMamma8 certainly wants you to believe that he would assume SensFan would have investigated him but it's really not true. His actions on day three are much more consistent with play from scum pulling a gambit than they are from town who didn't know what was happening. His consistency towards SensFan is no more likely if he was town than if he's scum and it has more benefit to him as scum given that it continued right through the un-counter-claimed cop claim.

At this point the decision is up to you. I don't know what else I should say to sway you but I hope that you're going to take the time you need to get this right and see that NachoMamma8's cases just don't hold up.

Unless of course you're scum in which case, like I said, well played but I hope you don't expect to get away with the "I'm just not in your league and I'm going to get killed any minute here" story again any time in the near future.

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Post Post #577 (isolation #29) » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:50 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Well, it's nice to know that at least I made the right choice for once (well, thrice.) I've got a terrible record in this sort of situation (I think was 2 and 5 with picking the right player in this sort of endgame situation prior to this.)

If you've got any questions do ask. I can beyond that I can only encourage you to look at what's happened here; I think it's clear that I'm right but I've got a bit of a bias.

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Post Post #583 (isolation #30) » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:09 pm

Post by Zorblag »

@NachoMamma8, at this point I know that you're scum. You don't have to be convincing me of anything.

Trying to say SensFan was playing against his win condition because he got busy and ended up flaking from MS in general is pretty silly.

Attacking someone who's attacking your scum partner is a chainsaw defense regardless of what else you've got to motivate your attack. If you didn't like his play in addition to that I can believe it; it made him a tempting target but what you did was also a chainsaw defense.

You were bussing Ellibereth because you were lynching him as a scum partner. The others weren't. I believe that I did describe Deer's vote there as potential bussing as well back when he might be scum. You killed your partner off when it became clear that he was going to be the lynch for the day. That's bussing and it was the right move to make there as scum.

Your reasons for SensFan having you as his best target for investigation now seem to be that you think he would have had reason to find you scummy. Just because someone attacks you doesn't make them scummy. But even if it was true that somehow you were plenty of apparent reasons for him in particular to investigate you that makes not investigating you a better option as the scum, if they didn't kill or roleblock him for whatever reason would have then had a good reason to kill you. Unless he's fairly sure you're scum (which he gave no indication of) you were not his best choice for an investigation.

SensFan as a cop should have been killed or roleblocked (unless the scum didn't think they could get him lynched later because of that), yes. SensFan as scum should have faked being roleblocked. You immediately jumped to the conclusion that he wasn't a cop and was instead scum when that didn't make any more sense. Town shouldn't be trying to lynch an claimed power role in that situation unless they've made an attempt to figure out what's happened. You had your story and reasons ready way too soon.

The mafia can't kill the main proponent of killing the cop if they are the main proponent of killing the cop.

There's no reason that claiming an innocent investigation on you if he were scum should make SensFan expect you to suspect him any less. Having a claimed innocent investigation on you from someone doesn't come anywhere near clearing them as a cop.

I don't expect you to love SensFan's play on day three if you didn't like his play day one or day two. On the other hand you did nothing in the way of attacking him until after he had posted his result. Then you were right there with your entire case prepared, his not having been blocked or killed being a part of it right away.

Flightiness is a poor way to explain why you've forgotten a day three vote given the amount of detail you're able to put out here now when you need to.

Replacing the word response with the word defense is a nice way to try to frame the situation we're in. It was certainly worth a comment to point out your attempt to manipulate.

And looking at the case you've got against SensFan it seems that most of it is that you don't like his playstyle, which is what I said. He's abrasive and insulting, he makes his Appeals to Authority, he overstates his own importance, his publicly stated reasons for voting people are unimpressive, he won't explain his reasoning and in general wasn't a great IC. That's how he plays his game. It makes him an easy target in some ways and I this time I'm stuck defending it which sucks for me but so be it. You've spent the game using it to your advantage which is a great play on your part. It doesn't make SensFan scum though no matter how much you'd like Pulindar to be convinced it does here.

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Post Post #585 (isolation #31) » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:33 pm

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@NachoMamma8, my knowing that you're scum now doesn't stop the chainsaw defense from being a chainsaw defense. If my pointing it out to Pulindar doesn't do anything to convince him then there's nothing much I can do about it but the fact remains that you came in attacking the scum's strongest attacker right from the get go. Certainly you've got every reason to frame it as attacking him for other reasons; you'd hardly be playing to win if you didn't.

If you don't think that SensFan investigates people he believes are scummy and you thought that he found you scummy then why are you saying he would clearly have investigated you. Those don't add up at all.

My point about the timing of your vote on day three is that a single hour after SensFan has posted a result on day three you were voting him will a fully developed attack and without showing any inclination to consider any theory other than that he must be scum who was lying. A theory which doesn't make sense. I don't have a particular amount of time in mind but if I did it'd be more than that. Also there should have been some effort to clear things out. If you're the town then it would seem that talking to the rest of the players might make some sense.

The mafia can't kill themselves and SensFan had no great reason to think that you were scum at that time. That doesn't add up to him having a good reason to investigate you over anyone else. Trying to push that it does somehow doesn't make any sense. You're trying to make something seem like a certainty (or evey particularly likely) when it isn't because it helps to make SensFan look worse if it gets accepted by Pulindar how you're spinning it.

So you thought that he flaked at some point during day three but didn't bother making any attempts to point out reasons he was scummy that day before you came to this conclusion and yet you were fully ready to attack him as soon as he had posted his result. That doesn't make sense for a townie trying to hit scum all along. If his inactivity was such a scum tell before and now (when you're giving it as one of the reasons you think that he's scummy and after he has in fact flaked) why wouldn't you be talking about it day three before he posted?

I'd rather you had a reason to have voted for Mr. Finch that you could give us. It's what I'd expect from town. The "I forgot" story is a great cover as it absolves you of having to come up with any solid motivation for the vote.

I don't have any links to games where SensFan hit scum on what he thought was a single scum tell; I don't read that many of his games because I don't find reading his play enjoyable. I don't really have to have an example of him hitting scum with a single scum tell to satisfy what you're looking for. All I'd need would be evidence that he's willing to lynch with a single scum tell as town on day one. Or in fact evidence that he'd only list a single scum tell when calling out scum regardless of how many he had.

I will point out though that you're trying to use the fact that SensFan was able to help get scum lynched as part of your case against him when that's exactly what he wants to do as town.

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Post Post #587 (isolation #32) » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:37 pm

Post by Zorblag »

@NachoMamma8, do sleep well. I might not be about in the afternoon but I should be able to respond to whatever you've got by tomorrow evening. Good luck with your paper if you haven't finished it yet.

@Pulindar, NachoMamma8 is right about one thing. There's no hurry to finish the day. We've got till Sunday so take your time and vote when you're ready. You'll get to see more from us till then and perhaps someone will bring up something that makes a difference to you.

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Post Post #588 (isolation #33) » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:01 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Pulindar, as of late last night I just finished Newbie Game 871 (I couldn't talk about it earlier because it was ongoing and it wouldn't have mattered because I wasn't confirmed town there till yesterday anyhow.) The mod hasn't given an official result yet but my vote ended the game with a town victory. It's relevant to this game because it's one in which I joined on day three and immediately called for a no lynch in the same way that I did here. I got more opposition to the idea there (though curiously not from the scum at all) so I had to go through and say what the correct moves were fairly often right from the start of my tenure there. I spent the game giving interpretations of the actions people had made and what they did so far as being tells for their motives (what was and wasn't possible or likely.)

All of that seems to be stuff that you find scummy for me here. I know it's self-provided meta but I've now got an example of me doing it in another game happening at exactly the same time as town. It's a part of my play style that I really do think helps the town with it's added transparency of my thought processes (especially in newbie games where people are likely still getting a feel for how they should be approaching analysis.) If that aspect of my play is still a factor for you here I'd encourage you to take a look at the other game. Clearly it's not an exact parallel of this one but it's surprisingly close and I think that you'll find me exhibiting all those traits there.

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Post Post #590 (isolation #34) » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:23 pm

Post by Zorblag »

So I'm off to bed now and I'm not sure quite how much I'll be around tomorrow. Deadline is now a bit under 25 hours away. That's still lots of time but don't forget to be sure to get your vote in before it hits, Pulindar. If you don't then we've got no chance at all to win because NachoMamma8 gets equity after the night kill if we no lynch today. I'll take the chance of losing if you pick incorrectly (though I hope you won't) over the definite loss we get from a no lynch.

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Post Post #595 (isolation #35) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 5:57 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Gah, where are you Pulidar? We need your vote in the next 3 minutes to win this.

@Nachomamma8, if you win this via a deadline no lynch then I'm going to be particularly irritated. Your attacks on this player slot were very well done and clearly you got the mind-set that you wanted to be the one that stuck for most of the game. On the whole you played a really good game but this is probably my last choice of ways to lose to you.

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Post Post #596 (isolation #36) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:05 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Ah well, a vote would have been really nice there.

Congratulations Nachomamma8. Sorry about the loss Pulindar.

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Post Post #601 (isolation #37) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:24 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Well, it certainly doesn't hurt to try though with the deadline past I don't think it'll count.

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Post Post #602 (isolation #38) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:27 pm

Post by Zorblag »

Ah, and that wasn't the vote I'd hoped you'd cast. Ah well.

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Post Post #607 (isolation #39) » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:34 pm

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Yeah, I'll talk more about he game tomorrow but for now no one should feel bad for me for replacing into SensFan's spot just because he looked scummy; that's part of replacing in and as often as not it works the other way for me. In general I was pretty happy with how everyone played the game but I'll share some thoughts on people individually after we've got an official final verdict.

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Post Post #617 (isolation #40) » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:47 pm

Post by Zorblag »

First off, thanks for moderating Vel-Rahn Koon and good job town. You really should have won this one. I'll take a win caused by lack of access to the internet from Pulidar but, really, you guys figured it out by the end and you should have had the game so you should feel good about that.

I didn't hugely love like my spot much in the game just because of it's lack of flexibility from when I joined in but I enjoyed the challenge even if I apparently don't quite have the skill set to have lived up to it. For what it's worth, I was completely telling the truth when I said that not claiming to be roleblocked was a terrible play. I think that gave me more trouble than anything else that I inherited from SensFan just because it left me in a spot where I had to have a reason for someone to have made a really bad move. If I had inherited that as town I think I would have come up with the gambit theory that I did here but even I thought that sounded far-fetched.

OK, here are some things that I think it'd be good to take away from this game.

* There's no real reason to let the final vote come as the clock is running out. I thought I had lost the game when Pulindar voted for me back on February 4th. I never saw a good chance to actually get the win after that (at best I thought I might have made it up to a 50-50 chance of not getting lynched) and so as much as anything else I was playing for the stall in the crazy hope that what actually happened would. In the end it's a game; if a vote feels good enough to make in LyLo it's probably worth sticking with.

* Just becuase someone's fairly pleasant and seems to be trying to help doesn't by any stretch make them town. The massive turnaround after Day Four started on the level of suspicion towards my player spot was crazy. I didn't do anything to wipe out SensFan's play from before; I just use a playstyle that's designed to be less likely to invoke a desire to vote me than he does. Actually, along the same lines, SensFan probably would have acted about the same if he were town. It's important to try to divorce personality from alignment as they aren't that closely linked for most players.

* In my opinion everyone who's complaining about SensFan's post in which he said he couldn't bus like he did as an IC has every right to feel as though they were treated unfairly. One of the first things I did after entering the game was to register a complaint about that post myself (via PM.) On the plus side we can rest assured that Vel-Rahn Koon will deal with it appropriately so other than noting that it shouldn't have happened there's no need to worry about it from here on out on our end.

Here are some thoughts for individual players:

@Pulindar, don't worry about being out of your league. You're really not. I might talk up a streak when I need to but I really am just 3-5 (now that I've also won NG 871) in endgame situations like the one you were in when I'm town. It's a tough spot and you did fine. I'd just recommend being more sure of yourself and be willing to follow through. Don't worry if you get killed (when I get lynched or night killed town is 9-1 so it's really not such a bad thing in my experience) and just do your best to find scum even when it means just being satisfied with a gut reason if you can't see a rational one.

@Nachomamma8, I think that you might have been able to push me on my sudden vote towards the end of the day (I had a half-assed defense prepared but I think you would have won that exchange.) On the whole you let me get you on the defensive at the end of the game and never seemed to launch any extra counter attacks. Even when you've got a bunch of points you'd like to make that seem legitimate (and many of your Walls-of-Points were largely legitimate) most players aren't going to read posts like that; I suspect that it'd be useful to end posts of that sort with a quick summary that gets as much of your point across as you can. I know that towards the end of the game I felt pretty good about exchanging long posts that I didn't think that Pulindar was going to read too in depth; at that point I just had to say something and stay on the offense to accomplish my goals.

@Deer, giving up like you did at the end of Day Four was probably a mistake. It might not have made a difference but if you're pretty sure that you're being taken down then you want to make as many last points as you can so that they've got some chance to be fresh. I don't know if anyone else in the game actually agreed with the case that I made when I was ready to vote you but I do know that it might have helped you to get everyone to be as explicit as I was trying to be.

@jee and totallynotmafia, I am sorry that you stopped looking so much at my spot based on SensFan's post. I'd make sure not to give anyone too much credit if their claim clears you as innocent in the future (clearly SensFan and I did that as scum this game) but I don't think that you cleared me just because of that.

On the whole it was a pleasure playing with everyone here. Best of luck in your future games! If you have any questions do feel free to ask and I'll be happy to give my input.

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