Newbie 869 - Game over

[Nachomamma8]

Hello everyone, I'll read up tomorrow.

But a glance at the screen tells me that Ellibereth needs to explain why he decided to investigate jee the first night, and name one other person he was thinking about investigating and why.

HINT: "He was scummy to me" is not a reason for why.

[Nachomamma8]

Putting someone at L-1 before the replacement even has a chance to read up? Don't do that, please.

Vote: SensFan

Just finished reading.

Sens, you're honestly basing

an entire case

off using the word "bussing" on day one? With a player who has just now joined? What?

The first problem I've had from you is your excessive tunneling. Throughout the entire game, you've had a grand total of 2 suspects, 1 of which is dead and confirmed town. You have a total of 1 major point against your only suspect, and that's based on some scumslips you've seen in other newbie games (link me to three if you can. The first so we can see an example, the second so we can see it wasn't a fluke, and the third because you've played Mafia quite a bit before). You've been using one scumslip to get you through the entire game without saying anything of merit.

On the other hand, your suspect has been making what seems to me to be a conscious effort to scumhunt, and hasn't has any other glaring anti-town moments that I can see.

Gotta say that I LOVE how you practically piggy-backed on RPG's vote earlier when you saw the opportunity to take out the main person who found you suspicious, the resumed Elli.

What was I supposed to do, RPG, when the player I thought was Scum wasn't doing anything to let me see where he's coming from, and the rest of the Town didn't appear to be following me? Hindsight is 20-20.

Explain why you were voting him for something other than a nulltell, maybe? I might just be shooting in the dark here, but it normally helps. I'm most suspicious of your Darklight vote because of my town meta read on him. He played to it to a T, so you, who have apparently played PLENTY of games with him should know how he plays by now.

[Nachomamma8]

And if any of you hammer before I post again, I will hunt you down and destroy you.

Night.

[Nachomamma8]

All of you have failed in noticing my Sens comments, including Ellibereth who is currently being tunneled by him.

What do you both have to gain from lynching Deer right now? Where do we go from here if Deer is town?

[Nachomamma8]

You seriously think someone that has made no attempt to scumhunt and only post when someone directly suspects them could be town??

Yes. You should always hold the possibility that someone is town when you're a mislynch away from LyLo; overconfidence isn't going to help you here. And if Deer is town, we have nothing left. No real strong connections, no nothing.

If we lynch Sens, he most likely will flip scum. If this happens, we hit scum and don't have to worry about LyLo at all. If Sens flips town, we lynch you and hit scum next day. That way, the worst case scenario is that we end up in a 2 town 1 scum LyLo, which has chances that I like a lot better than a 3 town 2 scum scenario.

[Nachomamma8]

TNM, if Sens was the cop, then he would've done 1 of 2 thing.

1) He would've claimed long ago to get Elli lynched. A scum for a cop is a VERY good trade.

2) He would've made a more convincing case.

And I'd also like to point out the fact that you're about to lynch a claimed cop because you believe that there's a cop with a guilty on someone, even though that person hasn't inferred or said anything of the sort.

[Nachomamma8]

Lining up lynches is a scumtell IMO.

If you think my lynching plan is a bad idea, speak up. Saying something's a scumtell doesn't make it so.

[Nachomamma8]

If Sens is town, why am I automatically scum?

Sens has been completely convinced of your scuminess since Day 1. And if his scumhunting is real, then there's an extremely high probability of you being scum because he is a very experienced player and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be so horribly wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: Ellibereth

Go ahead and die, scum.

I'll add this, though, since I'm sure Nacho will try to convince you not to lynch Elli. Lynching anyone but Elli at this point is about as stupid as it gets. He's obviously Scum, since it would be beyond stupid for me (as potential Scum) to purposefully give up a 1-for-1. So the right play here (and if Nacho convinces you otherwise, wait for me. I can provide an almost-infinite amount of facts to support my case) is to lynch Elli. If he flips Cop, lynch me. Hint: He won't.

Why would you expect me to lynch you after you counterclaimed? That's a pretty stupid thing for you to suggest...

[Nachomamma8]

I don't care which of you die today.

[Nachomamma8]

Not a good attitude, you should try to preserve the real cop. Me.

Why? If there's a mafia roleblocker, you'll be nothing more than a glorified vanilla. If there isn't, that means that there's no doctor to save you and you'll be killed in the night anyway.

[Nachomamma8]

If Ellie is scum then I'm almost certain the other is Jee. If Ellie was telling the truth then we lynch SensFan next and go from there. Either way I think the town is in a pretty good position now.

Ehhh... your Jee opinion is most likely off, but we can address that later, now can't we?

[Nachomamma8]

I think we need to take a good hard look at jee - Elli tried to clear him with his fake cop report, and he immediately bandwagoned and buddied up with Elli after he voted for me. I'm going to hold off on a vote for right now, but right now I pretty heavily FoS: jee

Meh, doubtful. It was apparent Elli was going to be lynched at that point unless he claimed a power role; so he claimed cop. It would be easy to assume that jee would side with Elli; I'm assuming that he believed Elli was the true cop (if a cop claimed an innocent on you, wouldn't you react the same way?), so the vote on you afterwards wasn't too big of a scumtell.

Vote: Mr. Finch

Mr. Finch, can you guess why my vote's on you right now?

[Nachomamma8]

I just want Mr. Finch to answer my question, actually.

[Nachomamma8]

Probably because I didn't vote. Now, before I went to vote I asked if it was L-1 on Elli. He said he'd been lynched and I couldn't see the point of voting when there was already a lynch. It wasn't until we went to night that I realised it would make me look scummy. You're wrong though.

Nope. Any other guesses, Finchy? Let's put some effort into this guess instead of just looking at jee's case on you...

[Nachomamma8]

Sensyyy....

[Nachomamma8]

Mod, can we get a prod on SensFan?

Already done.

[Nachomamma8]

I still can't see it. I realise that we're all waiting for Sensfan, but in the meantime can you give me a hint so I might have a guess?

Dude, I forgot. I haven't read or seen this game in forever...

A reread is in order. Sorry guys. I'll get something worthwhile up when I wake up...

[Nachomamma8]

Is that your result?

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: SensFan

Defends Elli when he first comes under fire, saying that L-2 isn't that big of a deal.

How am I overreacting at all? I'm saying I liked the wagon. To be honest, I looked at ths screen for quite a while last night, contemplating if I wanted to place a fourth vote.

Bullshit. You, as an IC, know never to put a townie at L-1 on the first page on a Newbie game. Day 1, page 2 quicklynches do happen and have happened because an IC joins on random bandwagon, less experienced townies notice it and think it's an idea, so they vote all the way until a lynch. Also, most people don't count votes on page 1, so an accidental hammer would most likely happen (Note: Mr Finch's accidental hammer Day 2).

Uses IC status to validate his point.

Bussing scumtell on Elli. One point that composed of his ENTIRE CASE on him.

Freaks out about Elli's bussing thing some more.

In 125, uses a Gamber’s Fallacy.

In 127, yells at MrFinch for using a Gambiter’s Fallacy.

Sens: Does your thinking that I'm scum come solely from the fact that I suggested jee and deer were mafia?

I've explained it. I think you used a word without knowing what it meant, and then most likely scenario for you having heard that word is from a scumbuddy.

The definition of bussing doesn't even really fit the context of your post, quite apart from it being insane to accuse someone for bussing that early in the game.

He did say he played 10 games on another site. So is it REALLY that outrageous that he saw the term there?

I know it looks like nothing to you guys, but trust me. I've played in countless Newb Games, and I know a slip when I see one. I'm 99% positive she's Scum.

Reverse AtoA. And you told us you were a cop with a confirmed guilty on Elli, so where does the 1% uncertainty come from?

Elli has dropped a slip, and from my experience playing with countless Newbs, I know a slip when I see one.

Reverse AtoA. Again.

Sens - most vocal

Just pointing out that this is more important than you may realize. If I'm the most vocal, it's not unusual for me to commmit the most 'scumtells', due to sheer volume of content.

So... we should cut you more slack and ignore some scumtells because of your sheer volume of content?

Because that's not bussing, its distancing.

Wait, what? Why correct deer and attack Elli?

More useless discussion is the exact opposite of what we need right now. Elli is Scum. He dropped a Scum slip; it doesn't get any easier than this.

Discouraging more content and going for a quick lynch.

After everyone has checked in, Sens counterclaims.

I'll add this, though, since I'm sure Nacho will try to convince you not to lynch Elli. Lynching anyone but Elli at this point is about as stupid as it gets. He's obviously Scum, since it would be beyond stupid for me (as potential Scum) to purposefully give up a 1-for-1. So the right play here (and if Nacho convinces you otherwise, wait for me. I can provide an almost-infinite amount of facts to support my case) is to lynch Elli. If he flips Cop, lynch me. Hint: He won't.

PARANOIA.

Then, he says “Oh, I have infinite amounts of facts to back up my case.” So… why didn’t you tell us these infinite amounts of facts before so you WOULDN’T have to claim and make yourself a target for the NK?

Sorry guys, in the middle of moving back to school, and a little behind on internet activities. TNM is Town.

Only mafia (and the doctor) know if there is a doctor right now. If there is a doctor, there is a Mafia Roleblocker as well. Mafia Roleblockers can kill and roleblock on the same night.

So, answer me this: What kind of Mafia would NOT roleblock the claimed cop, and still try to kill him?

[Nachomamma8]

@Deer: I think you should look at my case against him once again. If you have questions, then ask. Because right now, I don't feel like you understand it.

Also, please explain the vote on Finch. We are all still kind of confused on that one.

I would if I could. But I forgot a long time ago what all that was about.

[Nachomamma8]

Here's what I gained from it: you think Sens is scum because he thought he caught a scumslip of Elli's (which may or may not be true), then tunnelled on Elli (especially on D2, when he claims he got a guilty) and then used some appeals to authority and got a little egotistical (after he got the guilty, again). I'm just wondering why you're so upset - Elli was scum. Sens did a good job pushing for that lynch, and while it might be a ginormous bus, all his posts on D2 come across as exactly what he claimed to be - a cop with a guilty. Correct me if I'm wrong about your arguments.

My point is that his case on Elli was absolutely horrible, and he was dropping scumtells all over the place. He claimed cop AFTER several people had already hinted that they thought he was the cop.

@nacho:

do you remember what general thing it was about?

His not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens.

@Nacho: would you agree that even with the chance of SF being scum, it is not really a very smart move to lynch him now considering there's just as much evidence to show that he is the cop?

There's not evidence that he's cop. All we know is that he isn't vanilla.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, he had to try and make a case on Elli without directly claiming cop, I believe. The whole AtoAs and bussing business seemed like just a way to convince the town to lynch Elli without outing his report - after all, Elli didn't do anything THAT outright scummy.

First of all, he dropped plenty of scumtells on Day 1 that you ignored. Second of all, bussing buiness was Day 1, before he had the supposed report in the first place. Third of all, Ellibereth was scummy. Unless you all actually believed the bussing bullshit...

And guess what jee's case on Finch consisted of? Finch not voting on the Elli wagon and his interactions with Sens. Explain yourself, please.

Explain that Jee saw the same things I did, and I remember spotting those things?

Nobody else has claimed to be cop. There's a much better shot that he's cop than anyone else around here. Also, guys, keep in mind there may be no roleblocker: one of the possible setups is 2 goons, a cop, and the rest 'nillas.

There's no doubt he's the cop if we have one.
And if there's no doctor, then why the hell did we get a no-kill?

[Nachomamma8]

After all, is it a coincidence that SensFan didn't post his counterclaim until after everyone else posted. Is it a coincidence that he chose to check the person no one really suspected, and not the person who was next to lynch on the town list.. like me.

This especially stood out to me. Instead of narrowing down the lynch list like a true cop would've done, he decided to investigate someone who town generally had a town read on.

[Nachomamma8]

Just popping in here, but I must say, any Cop that wastes an investigation on someone he has a scumread on isn't a very good Cop. I investigated the person I had the least clear read on, which is by far the best play.

That is, unless you're in a 1M-MyLo situation with 1 scum left where getting a guilty would win the game. Clearing a scumread of yours would also definitely prevent a mislynch, and would also give us the option of examining other options for lynch.

Also, if I bussed a partner as hard as some of you are accusing me of bussing Elli, there's no doubt in my mind VRK (who is modding this game, so of course sees it) would absolutely have banned me from ICing again. The IC is here to help teach other players about a game of Mafia; and to completely make sure your NewbPartner is lynched would be a massive problem. My primary goal isn't to win, of course. My goal is to help teach Mafia.

Well, there's doubt in mind. It's not that hard to explain to a partner pre-game why you're going to bus him, and as for your primary goal, it had better be to win. If you want to teach Mafia to everyone else, then playing your absolute hardest is the way to go. Your job as an IC is to get newbies prepared for games outside of the Road to Rome; that job isn't being completed when you're playing with kiddie gloves on.

But you said that was not what you

primarily

suspected Finch for, as I quoted previously. That vote still looks really scummy to me right now, especially seeing how you can't even explain it anymore. I want a solid answer, not more BS about how you forgot or whatever.

Bolded is mine. And, for the last time, I forgot. Do you want me to make up a completely bullshit case on MrFinch? Because if you need me to do that, I will. Gladly.

WE ARE NOT LYNCHING AN UN-CC'D COP TODAY. I don't care what you say. If he is mafia, we can deal with that at a later point. I refuse to lynch someone who may very well be the cop at this point in the game. We can lynch wrong and still come out okay, so lynching a possible cop right now is an EXTREMELY dumb move. If he lives another day, we can deal with his scumminess tomorrow. If he gets killed, and ends up being cop, then TNM is undoubtedly town. Please stop voting Sens.

Ever heard of pressure votes? I'm not afraid of someone hammering because if they do, they're scum. I'm using the time now to make Sens defend himself, as well as drawing out piggyback voters such as Jee, and lurkers like MrFinch. Now saying this, the majority of the pressure is now gone, so I suppose I'll just say that if Sens ignores my case against him, I'll make sure he's lynched tomorrow.

TNM is town. We don't need Sens's cop flip for that.

[Nachomamma8]

That's not necessarily true. Now I don't think that Finch or TNM will hammer on Sens,

but if they were other, less smart, players

, I think they might based on all the effort you're putting into your case. A vote is a vote, whether it's a hammer or not. I just don't want Sens getting lynched today because of you.

I don't care about other circumstances. You don't seem that concerned about Sens being hammered today in THESE circumstances either, so why are you trying to convince me to unvote? Do you want me to unvote because you aren't convinced Sens is scum, or are you just being careful?

I've also noticed you've barely commented on my case. What parts of it do you disagree with? What parts of it do you agree with?

[Nachomamma8]

I think there's a good chance jee has planned this whole doc claim, so my vote is staying with him for the moment.

No. Lynching an uncounterclaimed cop when we're 1M-LyLo is the worst possible action we can take at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

I meant doc.

But cop is the same.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote=totallynotmafia"]
Ok, so lynching an uncounterclaimed doc is a big no-no but lynching an uncounterclaimed cop is totally fine?
[/quote]
Cop: Gives results we aren't sure are true until he's dead.

Doctor: When you're 1 mislynch away from MyLo, a doctor can give you another day, and another chance to find scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, nacho, as of this moment, I'm pretty sure TNM is town, and if you don't want to lynch an un-cc'd doc or cop, then that only leaves you or Finch's replacement for me to lynch, and I'd rather lynch you than Finch's replacement. I wouldn't feel bad lynching jee either, as I'm really not sold on his claim, but I guess my vote will just stay where it is for now unless someone can talk me out of it.

You understand why we don't lynch an un cc'd cop, but you don't understand why we don't lynch an un cc'd doctor?

Anyways, let's hear your case on me.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nachomamma: Aside from SensFan, who do you see as potential scum?

Finch or Deer... Unsure how I feel on Finch.

VRK, where's Finch's replacement?

I don't know Nacho. When someone volunteers to replace then we'll both find out.

[Nachomamma8]

TNM, I see a few glaring issues:

However, I believe that if we lynch jee and he turns out to be doc it wont be that bad of a situation and may actually prove to be helpful.

The doctor has the ability to give us another day. Please explain how lynching him is helpful.

Secondly, this is all assuming that SensFan is telling the truth. Like I said before, SensFan has defended his actions a few times now based on the fact that he's IC, so if he was scum I really don't think that he's allowed to do this. If I'm wrong about this then the biggest thing I will have learnt from this game is not to trust the IC.

Read the article "Being a good IC". The first thing on the list states not to be "rude, unhelpful, and/or inattentive". SensFan has not been attentive. The third thing on the list states, extremely clearly: "Don't lurk". Sens has been lurking almost this entire game. This game is obviously not his best as an IC; using IC status to defend yourself is wrong and unethical because it gives you an unfair advantage. If this is the only thing stopping you from seeing SensFan as suspicious, then I seriously suggest you take a look at him again.

1) Try reading Elli's behavior towards SensFan again. Elli, who I have played in a few games with, is aggressive, whether town or scum. He would not allow an attack with a single scumtell to pass unless it was bussing. He would refute the case with everything he had.

2) That would be the stupidest scum move in the world. If there was no roleblocker and SensFan claimed cop, then why in God's name would you leave someone who can end the game for you alive? Why not kill the cop, and then say you protected someone?

[quote="totallynotmafia"
However, I haven't seen a decent case on anyone else being scum.
[/quote]
What about my case on SensFan?

[quote="totallynotmafia"
Also, one other tidbit. When I was reading jee's other game on this site, he accused someone of fencesitting, and he spelt it right: fencesitting. In this game, when he accused someone, he spelt it fensesitting, a few times. I don't know if there is anything to this, perhaps jee was trying to dumb himself down in order to not appear as a threat, it's just something interesting I came across that I found funny.
[/quote]
His meta in THAT game is inconsistent with his meta in this one. In his old game, he played extremely careful (i.e. checking the Wiki to make cases on other people). Now, he seems to play by instinct which is what most new town do.

[Nachomamma8]

Well if jee is really the doc then he is either going to be shot or roleblocked anyway. I'm saying that if we mislynch somebody else we will be in the exact same postion tomorrow. If we mislynch jee and he is doc, then we remove all the scum suspicion that many of us have on him and can get on with the scum-hunt on the remaining players. I'm looking at the overall picture here.

If he's shot, scum takes care of our suspicions for us.

If he's roleblocked, Sens won't be.

Why wouldn't Ellie want to bus right on back? That would seem to be the smartest move if being bussed by your fellow scum, what advantage is there in not being aggressive in that case? It seems like scum would be more likely to hold off making it into an issue if it was town accusing them.

You don't bus back so you don't compromise your buddy's case.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Explain.

Well I would expect him to play differently in this game from that one as scum too, seeing as he was lynched day 2 in that one. Perhaps time for a new strategy?

Scumteam won that game. Surviving until the end of the game is not a win condition for scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Why aren't you lynching SensFan?

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, vote: jee

If jee isn't scum, you either refute my case or agree with it. Everyone else who votes for jee makes this same agreement.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote, Vote: No Lynch

Jee, vote no lynch with me. Explaining in next post...

[Nachomamma8]

@TNM: We're not lynching an uncounterclaimed doc today. Jee is the key to the town's success, and it all depends on him surviving the day. Lynching him is something I can't let you do as a townie and an SE.

SensFan is gone, and Mr Finch's replacement is nowhere to be found. So, once jee votes no-lynch, it'll go through when the deadline falls through.

If we no lynch and jee protects totallynotmafia, we're going to see some inconsistencies. If Sens is scum, then there is no roleblocker. He won't be able to kill TNM, and so he'll have to settle for either A) a no kill, or B) he'll have to find someone else to kill. He'll also have to keep making up investigation results. If he says that he's been roleblocked, then jee's cleared. If jee is scum, then there is no roleblocker. If TNM dies, then Sens is automatically cleared. If someone else is scum, then he can roleblock jee and kill TNM, but Sens is cleared and given an investigative result. If they decide to try to kill TNM, then it's a no-kill and if Sens is roleblocked, jee's cleared. If TNM dies, again, Sens is cleared. If jee or Sens dies, we'll learn their alignment and have mafia waste an NK trying to figure it out instead of us wasting a lynch. If someone other than jee or Sens dies, then another person will be cleared (jee if Sens is roleblocked, otherwise the person from Sens's investigative result).

[Nachomamma8]

So we waste an opportunity to lynch potential scum just so we can speculate on another night kill? I think a no lynch is the worst idea.

TNM. There are 6 people alive. If we no lynch and mafia make a kill, we'll have 5 people. Then we can mislynch, and then it'll be LyLo. If we mislynch now, then it'll be MyLo. How the hell are we wasting an opportunity?

Nacho, if the scum is you, Mr Finch or Deer, then the night kill will be tailored so that it looks like either SF or jee are scum.

How?

I don't know how else to explain it...I am voting for who I think is scum.

If you don't lynch who you think is the scum each day then I think that is just the worst play as town.

TNM, you're suggesting to completely screw over the town. We're not even going to LyLo,

WE'RE GOING TO MYLO

. Lynching jee makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, and you haven't shown me or anyone else how jee is scum.

[Nachomamma8]

TNM and deer, you have absolutely no case on jee. Nothing. It'll take Mr Finch's replacement or SensFan to change the majority, and right now, I'm actually hoping the deadline will come before that happens.

If we lynch jee today and he's telling the truth, TNM will be NKed and Sens either miss his action or be roleblocked. Meaning... we go into MyLo with less than we have now; we have a cop who isn't confirmed and without a result, 0 confirmed innocents, and a dead doctor.

[Nachomamma8]

Right now, I believe SensFan is the scum. Show me how your case on Jee is more thorough than mine on him.

You just seemed confused right now. But you won't listen to anything I say until I flip town, so we'll cover this in the postgame, okay?

[Nachomamma8]

@Nachomamma8, do you often forget what your case was going to be on someone you're casting a vote for? Do you even remember if you were voting for Mr. Finch for something you really thought was suspicious of was there some chance that it was a pressure vote of some sort?

No, I don't really forget reasons for my vote often; I'm guessing it was an intuitive vote.

It's interesting that his vote stays there even when he's saying that lynching an un-counter claimed cop or doctor is the worst thing that could be done in that situation.

That vote stayed there because there was not a lot of danger of a Sens lynch at the time based on townie negligence, and I didn't really feel like my vote could do any good anywhere else.

I hate the plan he suggests in Post 445 (i.e. agreeing to help lynch the un-counter claimed doctor with the expectation that people will then lynch the un-counter claimed cop the next day unless they can refute his argument.)

That was a plan based entirely on frustration; I was annoyed that Sens was gone and that they were wanting to lynch jee. I had no intent to carry it through at all.

[Nachomamma8]

How do you expect the rest of us to react to you not remembering why you voted for Mr. Finch off hand?

Like you're reacting; asking questions, probing, trying to learn more.

Would you be willing to go back and try to figure out what it might have been?

Well, I ISOed him, and what stood out to me just now is his hammer on DLA; it doesn't sit well with me at all. He hammers DLA, saying that he "ummed and ahhed" over it for 90 minutes, and then immediately apologizing afterwards, saying it took a preview for him to know if he hammered, and that he'd never done anything like that before.

I also didn't like his rolefishing in post 23.

He had Elli in his scumlist at the end of Day 1, but not at the start of Day 2. Also, there's this quote:

Elli - A couple of people believe scum (Sens and Deer) with some questioning from Jee. Seems to have gone to single line posts instead of explained discussion.

I don't like how he avoided actually posting his opinion of whether Elli was scum or not.

On a mostly unrelated note, what's your current take on our situation? It seems you were right to not want to lynch jee. What do you make of totallynotmafia's night kill and who do you think is scum?

We're in a good position right now. We have a confirmed innocent doctor, and we have 2 full chances to hit scum. TNM's night kill was... strange. Not sure what to make of it.

Right now, I'm seeing scum in Mr Finch/Pal or Deer. Right now, I'm leaning more towards Deer because of how he buddied up to TNM so much yesterday, but ISOing Mr Finch instilled a little more suspicion in me. Jee is confirmed town, and your posting as a replacement has been solid so far.

Zorblag, what do you think of your predecessor?

[Nachomamma8]

1. Nacho pushed pretty hard for a Sens lynch on D2 and D3, yet immediately voted Elli once Sens claimed cop. If you felt like Sens was scum, why believe his claim without any questions or deliberation once you heard it? Seems like it could very easily be a situation where you knew your scumbuddy got caught and you had to try and save face by voting Elli.

When that counterclaim came, scum was going to get lynched, whether that day, or the next. More people tended to believe Sens over Elli, and trying to divert the wagon would only waste time.

What happened there?

I really liked Zorblag's willingness to clear people, especially when the person he would be forced to clear was someone he could've easily lynched, and when that easily lynched person was a powerrole.

3. The whole Mr. Finch vote situation I found to be pretty scummy in general. I've explained that before though.

You've explained why it's weird, yes, but you haven't explained my scum motive behind it (i.e. why it's actually scummy).

@jee: As a confirmed town, it'd be greatly beneficial to us if you took the lead. That means, remaining active and questioning everything scummy you find on other people. I'd also like you to make an analysis on every player in the game and why you find them scummy, like Zorblag did in his 495.

@Zorblag: What did you think of TNM-Deer interactions Day 3?

@Deer: What's your opinion on Finch's Day 1 hammer?

@Pulindar: What did you think of your predecessor?

[Nachomamma8]

You seem to be only semi focused on people, shifting completely and swiftly, why?

It's my style... I just feel it's the most effective way I can scumhunt, I suppose.

Also, what do you think of Zorb, the entire thought and reason?

He's suspicious in the sense that he replaced my top scum read yesterday. So far, I haven't found anything that was strikingly scummy, so not much to say...

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Deer

I'm happy with this vote. Not a whole lot is happening right now, so I'm voting who I would if it were 24 hours to deadline right now. Quite frankly, you need to step it up a bit and start scumhunting, or I don't think you should be with the town too much longer.

@Zorblag + Jee: I'm not sure what I think about Pulindar right now, but I do know that the particular statement Zorb pointed out wasn't scummy to me...

[Nachomamma8]

Well Pulindar, who is your top suspects?

As of right now, you top my list. However, I really hate SensFan's play from earlier, so I'm planning on a reread on Zorblag.

[Nachomamma8]

I've finished my reread.

However, I'd like Pulindar to comment before I do.

[Nachomamma8]

Can we get a prod on Zorb?

[Nachomamma8]

Zorblag:

I hated Sens's play. 100% hated it. He was completely obsessed with Elli Day 1, and yet he lynched DLA first. Then, he only claimed cop after everyone else posted and everyone had either implied/said they were pretty sure that Sens was the cop. That seems far too convenient for me to pass up. He had no content with anyone; he had minimal interactions with everyone that wasn't Elli or DLA. He also didn't make a single case backed up by good logic. I particularly hated how he wielded his IC status like a sword, and relied on ItoA to form his case on Elli. It all just seems like bussing to me.

Then, there comes Zorblag. Zorblag has IC play that I really, truly like. I don't believe that ICs should be overly aggressive, and they should be helpful, and explain their reasons for doing things. However, as to actual game content, there's something lacking. With a reread, I've noticed he hasn't really taken any strong positions. In his big analysis post, he has two people who he holds extremely close together on a scumlist (myself & Deer), and one town read without too much explanation (Pulindar). This gives him enough manuvering room to get either Deer or I lynched the first day, and then buddy up to Pulindar to get the remaining person lynched and win the game. The analysis in itself seems incomplete; he doesn't really follow up on much of it. He also began to poke at Pulindar (10, 12) when it was apparent Deer would be lynched, and again, didn't follow up on that. His hammer is also a little suspicious, I'd like him to explain WHY it was that post in particular that set him off to hammer Deer.

Pulindar:

What makes me feel bad about Mr Finch is his "don't rock the boat" mentality. He uses an FoS in ISO 1 instead of voting. In ISO 3, he takes a position on something and, seemingly worried it'll be read wrong, apologized if its at all unintelligible. In ISO 10, he suggests that his votecount might be wrong. It continues throughout the majority of his play. Then, there's his hammer. He is extremely apologetic for that too, even though his votecounts from time to time suggest that he is careful about hammering prematurely. His read on Elli in Post 28 is just strange; notice how he says "A few people find Elli scummy...", but never gives a read of his own.

Then there's Pulindar. His constant fear of being NKed is common for most new townies who feel they've been playing protown; I did it myself in my first game here. His playstyle is also different after the lynch and Deer's townflip; he seems to be more unsure of himself today, which is either me reading too much of it, a brilliant scum move, or, most likely, just a townie reaction. I'm planning on doing a meta read on him though, which I'm sure will help a whole lot.

[Nachomamma8]

The problem I had with Sens's investigation is that he didn't investigate who he thought was scum even though there was one scum left. The probability of him even getting an investigation through was tiny, so investigating a neutral read was extremely foolish. However, on Day 1, he investigated a strong scum read instead of a neutral read which, according to his philosophy, would've been another wrong move. So, that whole scenario was extremely confusing to me.

As for questions for you:
1. Why was Deer's defence of Sens interesting?
2. If you were scum (and not in the current player slot you're in now), would you have NK'ed yourself before TNM? Why?
3.

Pulindar's concern that he might have been the one killed seems more off to me though I suppose after the kill night two I should make more allowances for what I think isn't the obvious play.

Could you expand more on that quote?

Other than that, no questions.

[Nachomamma8]

I know it's WIFOM but I'm not that bad a player and neither is SensFan. We've got different approaches but we're both playing to win. The play from this spot, if it was scum, would not have been playing to our victory condition.

SensFan's play was definitely not playing to a town victory condition, either. And from how distracted he seemed the whole game, and how weird the night actions have been turning out, it makes the most sense that it would be his fault...

what looks like a chainsaw defense from NachoMamma8

If you're calling it a chainsaw defense, then I suggest you pick apart the attack itself. You yourself said that you would've pushed for his lynch Day 1, after all.

The vote for Ellibereth from NachoMamma8 as soon as it becomes clear that he's going to be the lynch.

As I said that day, I didn't care who was going to be lynched, considering a mafia member would be dead soon enough. And I knew that it was no use resisting, since the town was thoroughly convinced at that point.

3. The vote and guessing game with Mr. Finch at the start of Day Three and the fact that NachoMamma8 couldn't tell us why later on.

Unusual, yes. Scummy how?

4. Leaving his vote on SensFan who was in some danger of being lynched day three despite the fact that he acknowledges that lynching an un-counter claimed power role is the worst move that town could make that day.

Sens was in absolutely no danger of being lynched that day unless there was a combination of an overly stupid townie + an overly stupid mafioso. And had that combination happened, I'm pretty damn sure we would've been able to figure out who mafia was during that LyLo, if a LyLo even occured...

5. The fact that he even suggests lynching jee on Day Three in exchange for having people be willing to lynch SensFan on Day Four.

I've answered this before.

I don't know that NachoMamma8 would have had the same reason to fear being investigated that you think he would have.

Hmm... then you might want to reread Sens's ISO 52...

NachoMamma8, as town, should have been confused by what happened with that claim, not simply ready to jump on something that didn't make sense to try to get the un-counter claimed power role lynched.

I'm not a fan of this quote. Right now, you're defining how I should've reacted, and yet you fail to explain WHY I should've responded with confusion.

If NachoMamma8 was scum on the other hand, he set the situation up so that he could make that attack as soon as SensFan came out with his claimed innocent.

But why wouldn't I simply roleblock Sens and kill someone else? That makes tons more sense, considering I was the most likely to be investigated at that point.

Certainly NachoMamma8 might have been the investigatee but he spent the entire time since his entrance attacking this player slot and he was the one SensFan had mentioned with his last post so there was probably a bit much attention on him at the time to make him a great choice.

Actually, investigating me would've been a great choice. Let's assume that you are truly the cop, for a moment. Thus, mafia would want to keep me alive since I happen to be the only person attacking the cop, meaning I most likely wouldn't be NK'd. Clearing me as innocent would also be beneficial to you because having a confirmed aggressive scumhunter is extremely beneficial to town, which is something that I'm sure SensFan, out of anyone, would've realized. Also, there would've been a high probability of me being mafia since, after all, I was attacking someone Sens knew was town, and arguing the lynch of someone he knew was scum.

Now let's assume you're mafia. Fake investigating me would be a horrible choice. If you said I was guilty, then I would be lynched that Day, and you would've lost the next. If you said I was innocent, you would be clearing your main attacker, and validating his cases. So, Sens made an ally in someone who was a little quieter, and with someone whose top suspect was someone who seemed like an easy lynch.

[Nachomamma8]

Well, the way that you've cleared Pulindar is unnerving, but his vote on you is even more so. It seemed extremely opportunist to me; he votes on the last day before I leave in the hopes that I'll quickhammer you for the win. I also don't like the passive playstyle that Pulindar has adopted; instead of actively scumhunting, he's taken to sitting back and watching.

I still can't shake off Sens's play, though. I've read through a couple of his games, but I've never seen him play so stupid. I realize that it's hard to defend against something that your predeccesor has done, but it's also hard for me to let something so inherrantly scummy slide. However, I am going to reread Finch and Pulindar tomorrow, and try to start pressuring the latter because the passivity that he's displaying is really strange to me... But I do have homework to do, but I'll get a post up by tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

Thanks, VRK.

Now guys, let's actually see some activity.

[Nachomamma8]

@NachoMamma8, you can be sure that I've read it but what was it about SensFan's post 52 that makes you think that you were his top scum suspect other than Ellibereth who he had a guilty on? He said that he expected you to push for his lynch of Ellibereth's but you had spent your entire time in the game thus far saying he was scummy. I looked back and I don't see him saying that he thought you were scum at any point. I think that someone has been making a false connection there and it's what's sunk in as the overall thought process.

It's not too far-fetched of a connection, Zorblag. He warned everyone that I would try to stop them from lynching the obvious scum, and those that normally try to lynch someone other than scum is the scum's buddy, no?

the lack of a vote to go with his response is interesting.

How so? The fact that I'm not 100% convinced that you're scum is interesting? Are you 100% convinced that I'm scum?

First of all, the way that you've found to clear Pulindar is odd to me. He is definitely the easier ally in this situation; I tunneled on your predecessor for a while, and you are obviously my top suspect. I also find it disconcerting that you haven't tried to pressure Pulindar, or comment on his scummy actions. The icing on the cake in your situation is your wanting to wait for Pulindar to respond to my posts before you defend yours. It's like you're waiting to see his response to my posts, so you can make a defense accordingly.

I'm getting close to a vote, but I'd like a Zorblag response, then a Pulindar comment before I do so.

[Nachomamma8]

Zorb, your defense?

[Nachomamma8]

What is it exactly that you think was him playing against his win condition as town there?

His incessant inactivity, for one. And his lack of explanation for everything, the basing of an entire case on one vote. Also, as cop, he should've been far more agressive; instead, he was passive.

That SensFan's play is something that I inherently find irritating and worth voting for on day one doesn't make your attack of him when he was going after Ellibereth any less of a chainsaw defense.

No, I was confident that SensFan was scum, and I had clear reasons for it. If you can show me how my attack on him wasn't valid, go ahead. Otherwise, you might as well admit that my attacking of SensFan was coincidence, not chainsawing.

And your having said that after the fact does nothing to diminish from the fact that that's exactly where scum would want to bus. Just because you say you aren't scum bussing doesn't make it any less likely.

What made my voting of Elli any different than say, Deer's voting of Elli? Or... TNM's voting of Elli? Just because you say it's bussing doesn't make it so.

Come day three town should have reasons to be lynching people. Scum on the other hand just need to get town lynched. If you were town and had a strong enough reason to vote for Mr. Finch to open the day then you really should have been able to remember what it was. If you were scum and were waiting for SensFan to give his result on someone then you just need a place to park your vote till that happens.

Obviously, I had reasons for lynching SensFan. And why would I park my vote somewhere as opposed to just questioning SensFan more? It'd be so much easier, and I could use his lack of activity to mask my own.

If you're mafia you've got every reason to try to let a slip like that happen. If you're town and you know that lynching an uncounter-claimed power role in that situation is a bad idea (which you explicitly said) then you've got no reason to leave the option open.

Reaction hunting is a very powerful tool. At that point, I was the most active person playing, and I was on the site far more than anyone else. In seeing who would try to push his lynch with me, then I could gauge reactions on who was scum by who tried to push his lynch with me and followed without questioning, and unvote in time for the lynch.

Having acknowledged that it happened and blaming it on frustration doesn't make it any less of a scum tell.

Obviously, there was a 0% chance of that happening. Check your timestamps.

This we've talked about. Anyone saying that SensFan was obviously going to investigate NachoMamma8 after day two is spinning the events in to their own advantage. SensFan did not indicate that he found NachoMamma8 scummy. He expected NachoMamma8 not to believe him and to want to vote for him. Town who had been acting like NachoMamma8 would be much more likely to exhibit that behavior than scum who would have been likely to bus their partner to end the day before any more damage could be done.

And yet, investigating me was the best move for town-Sens at that point. I was an aggressive player, and I was attacking him. I was also the most experienced person in the game other than him, and I had also just replaced a slot who had done absolutely nothing at that time. So, I was attacking a confirmed town, I was vocal and would definitely put pressure on people if I turned to confirmed town, and he could have a guaranteed read on a slot that hadn't done anything the whole game. So there were lot of reasons TO investigate me, thus I would've definitely been under the list for investigation, no?

Town shouldn't have a ready made explanation as to why the cop wasn't blocked. They shouldn't be sure about the status of the doctor and they shouldn't be sure about what the scum would do during the night.

I didn't have a ready made explanation. I wasn't sure about the status of the doctor, either. But I did know that if Sens was the cop, he should've been killed or roleblocked. He wasn't. So I got suspicious. I still don't understand why an aggressive action denotes scum.

As I said earlier, town should be trying to figure out what's going on; scum are trying to get their mislynches in.

Scum are looking for easy targets; town is looking for scum.

If the mafia thought that you were likely to get investigated by the cop then you would have made a great night kill. That alone takes you away from being a good choice. Anything past that is just WIFOM. You would be worth considering but there were better choices to be made.

If the mafia leaves a cop alive, then they obviously want to get them lynched. So, they most likely will not kill the main proponent against said cop.

If SensFan had been scum and faked investigated you with an innocent he wouldn't have been any worse off particularly.

Aside from the fact that I had been attacking him the whole game, and there was a chance that I would take the investigation result as buddying.

I like how your last post calls for my defense rather than my response. I've responded to the defense you're trying to make against my points against you but you've added almost nothing that I need to defend against.

Nitpicking because of one word just takes up space.

You also aren't explaining why you went straight for SensFan on day three after he had a result.

Didn't like his play Day 2 or Day 1, what would make me suddenly love his play Day 3? I was just waiting for him to come back.

You don't provide any adequate reason for not remembering why it was you voted for Mr. Finch but rather try to brush it off by saying that it's not an issue.

I'm just a flighty person, and I forget things sometimes. Obviously, I wasn't convinced he was scum; I was poking around and looking for other people who could've been scum.

Your entire case on me seems to be that SensFan's play was scummy because of his playstyle and that he would have been sure to investigate you after day two but he didn't but rather was paying little enough attention to the game that he made an obvious mistake and cleared totallynotmafia instead.

Oooh, you didn't get my case on Sens? I'll be glad to point it out again for you, it'll be coming soon...

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Zorblag

So glad my read on Sens was right

Pulindar, don't worry about hammering just yet; you have plenty of time... Things are gonna get interesting now. One of us knows the other is scum now, after all...

[Nachomamma8]

Why Sens was scum:

1) His early interactions with Elli.

What I find interesting on a readthrough is Post 37, where Sens answers for Elli that it is his first game on-site. With how lazy and inactive Sens had been the whole game, it doesn't actually make sense that he would do the research and meta Elli simply to answer that question. What DOES make sense, however, is if Elli happened to mention that in the quicktopic pregame.

2) His scumtell on Elli.

If SensFan pegged Elli as scum because Elli used the word "bussing", then I would worship him forever and ever. Especially since it was page 4, and Elli wasn't making some huge post and suggesting that he had already pegged scum...

3) His reaction when people asked for him to explain his slip.

Instead of referring to a former post of his or explaining it again like any normal IC would do (especially one who was so hung up on his sacred duty), he simply said "I've explained it two, three times already. Are you even reading the game?"

4) The attack on DarkLight.

Although he is ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that Elli is scum, he suddenly decides that DarkLight is scum instead, conviniently... 2 posts after Twilight voted Darklight, and not even a page after someone asked him why he wasn't voting Darklight. Also an interesting fact, guess who was attacking SensFan the most out of anyone?

5) Elli's vote on Darklight.

Elli votes Darklight, Sens's top suspect without too much complaining. Without saying anything about it before, and not saying much about it when he voted.

6) Well, what was I supposed to do, he says.

SensFan, interestingly enough, brings up the fact that everyone lost interest in his Elli case, although

the post directly after his

was a vote for Elli.

7) AtoA

Post 232. "I know this looks like nothing to you guys, but I've played in countless Newb Games. Trust me."

8) "I talk, therefore I am not mafia."

Gotta love Sens's 236. "I talk alot, so excuse more of my scumtells... Zorb, do you agree that we should be more lenient on active players?)

Does Zorblag understand my case on Sens now?

[Nachomamma8]

Saying I was chainsaw defending/buddying Elli because I'm scum really doesn't help Pulindar, does it?

And Sens illustrated that he doesn't investigate who he believes is scummy with his investigation of TNM.

Town shouldn't be trying to lynch an claimed power role in that situation unless they've made an attempt to figure out what's happened.

Why are you assuming I didn't make an attempt to figure out what happened? Who was I supposed to question in order to figure out what happened? As for me having my story ready too early, I didn't know there was an allotted amount of time townies were supposed to wait before they could post their suspicions >.>

The mafia can't kill the main proponent of killing the cop if they are the main proponent of killing the cop.

Thus making the main proponent a better target.

I don't expect you to love SensFan's play on day three if you didn't like his play day one or day two. On the other hand you did nothing in the way of attacking him until after he had posted his result. Then you were right there with your entire case prepared, his not having been blocked or killed being a part of it right away.

Didn't attack him earlier because I thought he flaked.

Flightiness is a poor way to explain why you've forgotten a day three vote given the amount of detail you're able to put out here now when you need to.

Would you rather me lie?

That's how he plays his game.

Scummy is still scummy, meta or no meta. And could you link me to a game where he's pegged a person with a single scumtell? Because I haven't read one yet.

[Nachomamma8]

I need to be awake to respond to you, Zorblag. See ya tomorrow! *waves*

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry, weekends tend to be a bad time for me. I'll get in a final response after I walk mah doggy.

[Nachomamma8]

Sorry it took me so long to post Pulindar, posting now and hoping you're online:

The chainsaw defense/bussing accusations are hard to defend against; they're mainly my word against yours because they depend on my being scum and don't really have anything that distinguishes them from me just being suspicious of Sens.

If you don't think that SensFan investigates people he believes are scummy and you thought that he found you scummy then why are you saying he would clearly have investigated you. Those don't add up at all.

On night 1, Sens supposedly investigated Elli, the person he was pretty sure about Day 1, got a guilty. Night 2, he investigated TNM, saying that "A good cop doesn't investigate someone he has a strong read on". Based on his Night 1 result, he shouldn't have investigated TNM Night 2. Based on his Night 2 result, he shouldn't have investigated Elli Night 1. So, I basically ignored his investigation pattern because it didn't make sense and assumed he didn't find anyone scummy because he didn't mention anyone being scummy (aside from his little comment on me), and pointed out that I would be a far better than TNM if Sens was playing to a town win condition.

My point about the timing of your vote on day three is that a single hour after SensFan has posted a result on day three you were voting him will a fully developed attack and without showing any inclination to consider any theory other than that he must be scum who was lying. A theory which doesn't make sense. I don't have a particular amount of time in mind but if I did it'd be more than that. Also there should have been some effort to clear things out. If you're the town then it would seem that talking to the rest of the players might make some sense.

Most of my attack wasn't based on his result at all; I had been making on a case on him while I was waiting for him to show up. And I'd like to point out that I did make an effort to clear things out; I did ask for alternate theories at the end of my post.

So you thought that he flaked at some point during day three but didn't bother making any attempts to point out reasons he was scummy that day before you came to this conclusion and yet you were fully ready to attack him as soon as he had posted his result. That doesn't make sense for a townie trying to hit scum all along. If his inactivity was such a scum tell before and now (when you're giving it as one of the reasons you think that he's scummy and after he has in fact flaked) why wouldn't you be talking about it day three before he posted?

I was waiting for his replacement to come because it's not exactly too productive to attack someone who isn't there. Plus, I wanted to hunt around for other possibilities in case I was wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

I think Pulindar died.

Zorblag, why don't you be a good sport and self-hammer? Please? I don't want to lose

[Nachomamma8]

PS: You can cut the charade as scum now. I'm pretty sure I just officially lost

[Nachomamma8]

If it does count, YESSS! Town wins, good game Zorblag. You played an excellent game, sorry that you had to replace such a scummy slot.

Pulindar, good job . You definitely played a strongly town game upon replacing in, so good work!