Newbie 944 - Game Over!

[el simo]

Hi, this is my first game in a long time. I used to play on another forum, I had quite a few games there.

...but seriously. I'd like to invite the IC's to ask random questions to everyone at this stage cos i think that's the best way to get things kicked off.

Try not to rely too much on our IC's for this sort of thing. Yeah they are a great source of knowledge but by doing this you're giving everyone else a free pass to do nothing.

Also remember, they could just as well be scum.

I do in fact have a beard. And a pipe.

[el simo]

Oh and

vote: Hades

[el simo]

On an side note, I disagree, Elias.



















Tits are definitely a scum tell!

[el simo]

And I'm not to concerned about Danny 'passing,' I would too. I'd be more concerned about palmer asking other people to do the work so he can sit on the side and watch.

[el simo]

And I have intentions to end all poverty.

[el simo]

Whoops, EBWOP

Sorry to triple post but I felt that I had to address this.

And I'm not to concerned about Danny 'passing,' I would too. I'd be more concerned about palmer asking other people to do the work so he can sit on the side and watch.

I had the intentions of doing it myself. I then got sidetracked and had to wrap up my post. I would do it now but I'm only on quickly. Basically, you'll see that I'm not a 'lazy' player or a player that likes to play others off on eachother. I do get my hands dirty and I don't lurk unless I'm actually busy (this weekend I will be quite busy btw), so you'll see this won't be an issue we've settled in a bit.

The reason why I thought I'd prompt the IC's to do it is because I figured they would probably be better at asking the questions that get the game going, being good IC's and all.

And I have intentions to end all poverty, but unless I act on them they mean nothing.

[el simo]

unvote: vote: nessarae56

[el simo]

Yeah quite honestly, a reactionary vote is a lot more believable than any reasons the rest of you have come up with.

[el simo]

What else would you have had me say when referring to the group as a whole?

[el simo]

What else would you have had me say when referring to the group as a whole?

I didn't tell you to say anything else. I just said I noted something. But mafia is a game of subtleties. Its good to keep that in mind, at all times.

Yes yes but I never said you implied anything, I was just asking a question to bring up a point.

That being, how else am I meant to refer to everyone else?

[el simo]

That being, how else am I meant to refer to everyone else?

Well I mean, something along the lines of "a reactionary vote is the most useful thing that anyone has done so far" would ping my scumdar less. I'm by no means saying you're scum for that for your choice of words, only that I thought it was an odd choice.[/quote]

But that is completely different to what I said.

Regardless, we're not going to go anywhere by discussing word choices so I'll move on.

The point of the comment was meant to imply that everyone was overreacting the his self vote because it's a perfectly reasonable (and rather obvious I might add) reactionary vote. People do it all the time. I even tried to do it myself by putting ness at L-2 but either nobody noticed or no one cared.

Having said that it's not much of a reactionary vote if everyone knows that it is one so I'm going to

unvote[/b.

[el simo]

EBWOP

Well I mean, something along the lines of "a reactionary vote is the most useful thing that anyone has done so far" would ping my scumdar less. I'm by no means saying you're scum for that for your choice of words, only that I thought it was an odd choice.

But that is completely different to what I said.

Regardless, we're not going to go anywhere by discussing word choices so I'll move on.

The point of the comment was meant to imply that everyone was overreacting the his self vote because it's a perfectly reasonable (and rather obvious I might add) reactionary vote. People do it all the time. I even tried to do it myself by putting ness at L-2 but either nobody noticed or no one cared.

Having said that it's not much of a reactionary vote if everyone knows that it is one so I'm going to

unvote[/b.[/quote]

[el simo]

Sometime people just do those kind of thing for a reaction. And it seems like it really is working. This whole thing got us off topic and not we are behind on finding who the sucm is.

I'm keeping my vote as is for now but will need to see something really scummy to change it.

This isn't off topic, it's the only topic.

[el simo]

Who is more likely to write a meaningful post? Someone who has intentions of doing it or someone who doesn’t?

Irrelevant. Fact is you didn't, doesn't matter what you intentions were because you didn't act on them. Trying to hide behind, "Oh but I was going to!" doesn't cut it for me.

To me El simo, it doesn’t seem like your post’s have indicated any scum-hunting. I see a trend in you making the odd complaint about the rest of the players not contributing enough./

Quote me.

And I'm not to concerned about Danny 'passing,' I would too. I'd be more concerned about palmer asking other people to do the work so he can sit on the side and watch.

This is what I am now accusing you of.

How am I directing attention away from myself while sitting on the side line and watching?

And if you think I haven't been doing anything you haven't read this game through because I just stated in a previous post that I was trying to pressure ness with an L-2 also hoping that the rest of you would react. Ie a reaction vote, ie scum hunting.

Having said that, you accuse me of not scum hunting yet all you have done yourself is discuss how being new doesn't necessarily equate to being bad.

[el simo]

Who is more likely to write a meaningful post? Someone who has intentions of doing it or someone who doesn’t?

Irrelevant. Fact is you didn't, doesn't matter what you intentions were because you didn't act on them. Trying to hide behind, "Oh but I was going to!" doesn't cut it for me.

To me El simo, it doesn’t seem like your post’s have indicated any scum-hunting. I see a trend in you making the odd complaint about the rest of the players not contributing enough.

Quote me.

And I'm not to concerned about Danny 'passing,' I would too. I'd be more concerned about palmer asking other people to do the work so he can sit on the side and watch.

This is what I am now accusing you of.

How am I directing attention away from myself while sitting on the side line and watching?

And if you think I haven't been doing anything you haven't read this game through because I just stated in a previous post that I was trying to pressure ness with an L-2 also hoping that the rest of you would react. Ie a reaction vote, ie scum hunting.

Having said that, you accuse me of not scum hunting yet all you have done yourself is discuss how being new doesn't necessarily equate to being bad.

[el simo]

Sorry, started working full time on Wednesday, also a phoneline was damaged near our house and I've been out of internet and phone access since.

Quite honestly I'm shocked to see votes on me but w/e I'll respond now.

Vote Adrien

I figured you might need an extra vote or two to get this rolling. Also, if my vote comes off Adrien it will be going straight onto El Simo if he hasn't posted anything useful over the same period of time.

What? Not only have you only made one post relevant to the game but you haven't even replied to my response and instead just threaten to vote me for not posting anything useful? Pretty hypocritical!

[My number one suspect right now is actually el simo. This is mainly for his 61-61 combo, in which he makes a sarcastic comment which appears to attack a point made by palmertrou, but then goes on to vote nessarae for no real reason at all. He also ignores a request from ness for an explanation. Also attacks other people in post 89 for not having good reasons to vote . Then explains that his vote was reactionary, yet he never responded to the reaction he got from ness. Despite two "EDWOP"'s, he never successfully unvotes. That, plus the "rest of you" thing are enough to warrant a

vote: el_simo

If you follow my voting pattern you'll see quite clearly that I was voting for who ever had the most votes on them. Firstly Hades, but by voting for himself any sort of pressure/reaction situation that might have been created, not to mention the unvote and the response it got, "what's wrong with two votes etc etc," obviously I wasn't going to get anything from Hades so I moved to Ness who had the most votes at that time.

This clearly supports my previously stated reasons for voting, which is that they were trying to push a reaction.

And I didn't answer why because if I had told her it was just a reactionary vote well then that completely contradicts the points of a reactionary vote. Obviously I was looking for more, from her and from the rest of you.

Also, my point against palmer is true, but not scummy, it's just poor play. Why would I vote someone for poor play?

Unvote; Vote: El simo

Actually that's where my instincts were leading me as well. I can't help but see a lack of pro-town activity from him. Furthermore, I'm bothered by his voting behavior the random vote on Hades is just a random vote, but then he votes ness for absolutely no reason, he later claims to have just been fishing for a reaction but that's extremely unclear at the time. Finally, I really don't like his lame attempt to unvote ness afterwords. Why? Because he's not moving it elsewhere, he's simply unvoting to unvote.

If you want a reaction you push for a reaction, you don't just vote and let it set there and if you do value your vote as a tool to get reactions why is your plan to unvote with no clear direction for your vote after that? There's basically no useful reaction to that behavior. All in all I'm just extremely bothered by his behavior.

What is the point of leaving a vote on someone when they know that the only reason my vote is there is to get them to react? I've already explained why I removed my vote.

I'd also like an explanation as to how my actions haven't been pro-town?

[el simo]

El Simo has been online on the forums (I saw him on the front page as an online user) for a good chunk of time and has yet to defend himself. This is getting pretty suspicious to me. I don't want to start a bandwagon, so I'm just going to

FOS: El Simo

. If he doesn't say something when I wake up in the morning, I'm gonna upgrade that to a vote.

It takes time to post yo.

[el simo]

Just got home from work, off to gym now, will post later tonight after the rugby.

[el simo]

If you follow my voting pattern you'll see quite clearly that I was voting for who ever had the most votes on them. Firstly Hades, but by voting for himself any sort of pressure/reaction situation that might have been created, not to mention the unvote and the response it got, "what's wrong with two votes etc etc," obviously I wasn't going to get anything from Hades so I moved to Ness who had the most votes at that time.

I'm not sure I follow...you're saying you weren't going to get any reactions from Hades because Hades was voting himself? Doesn't that seem like a good target for a reactionary vote, because much of the game is already focused on him? And why didn't you give that reason for unvoting when you changed your vote?

If he votes himself he obviously isn't going to feel pressured if he is at l-1 or l-2 because he could just unvote himself and because by voting for himself he is obviously looking for some reactions/attention, which I'm not going to play in to. All of this doesn't matter though because had I kept my vote on it would have just been me and him on his tail and it would've been impossible for me to get any reaction from him like that.

Not to mention the rest of you were doing a pretty good job of nailing him for it anyway, what you were doing would've provoked more of a reaction than my vote being on him leaving him at l-3.

And I didn't answer why because if I had told her it was just a reactionary vote well then that completely contradicts the points of a reactionary vote. Obviously I was looking for more, from her and from the rest of you.

That makes sense when you first asked the question, but you didn't need to wait nearly as long as you did to explain it. The eventual explanation reads almost like an afterthought to me.

I explained my reasons for the vote to explain my reasoning for believing Hades. There is nothing else I can really say on this matter.

Well I had a post and then the internet ate it. But to address el simo, before your two latest posts over half of your posts could be lumped into the relatively contentless categories of: an introduction, votes without reasons, sarcastic/joking one liners, and EBWOPs. The big problem is that in those other half of your posts I don't see any proactive actions. There's no questions, no poking and prodding, no pushing of wagons, your only content is generated in response to the play of others and that bothers me.

My votes were my poking and the sarcastic one liners were my prodding. And had I not voted there wouldn't have been any wagons in the first place, unless you count two votes as a wagon.

I'll do a bit more reading later and see what I can come up with, I've only got a few hours though and I'm out until early hours of the morning and then then there is rugby so this post might only come tomorrow.

[el simo]

El Simo was the third vote on nessarae56, all 3 votes were non-newb. I can see a reason for doing this, and it is inherently anti-town. That leaves 5 newbs to bring nessarae56 to L1 and than ultimately hammer. This could be a ploy to get a couple bloodthirsty newbs, that want to get D1 over with to vote. Then he could 'scumhunt' against the newbs that voted after him, and push for their lynches on subsequent days.

This convinced me.

Unvote
Vote: El Simo

Even though it's inconsistent with my voting pattern.

[el simo]

And completely stupid, if the IC's on the wagon thought Hades was under threat of a lynch they obviously would've unvoted, as would have I.

[el simo]

And completely stupid, if the IC's on the wagon thought Hades was under threat of a lynch they obviously would've unvoted, as would have I.

I'm just saying that it looks like it could be a ploy to get nessarae56 quicklynched. Basically I pointed it out in case you do something scummy later on.

What? How does that even defend your argument from my point?

[el simo]

So just reread the thread and realised quite a few things.

What stands out the most for me is that I realised I was wrong, Ness definitely did react to my vote, in fact, she reacted to everyone's vote, quite verbosely.

Posts 3, 4 and 8 by Ness are quite revealing, clearly she is very concerned about the votes that are on her, despite how non-threatening they were. I can't see why an innocent townie would be worried about three seemingly random votes.

Post 5 just screams appeal to emotion, I've never been one for falling for the noob card.

Post 6 she rides Elias' coat tail.

Post 11 she says the whole Hades thing has put us off topic on finding who scum is, but in the same post declares that she will not be moving her vote off Hades. Why? Do you find him scummy? If so than how has this "whole thing" put us off topic? Inconstancy is scummy.

Post 14 and 15 show clear indication of trying to push the town away from the Hades ordeal, but in post 17 and 18 she tries to bring it back claiming that she finds Hades most scummy and pushes for his reply.

So the ott reaction to the votes, the appeal to emotion and play of the noob card, the "I agree 100% with Elias" with out as much of an explanation or an elaboration and the inconsistency in play makes her my biggest suspect.

vote: Nessarae56

[el simo]

Yeah nice OMGUS.

[el simo]

Btw Hayl hasn't done the vote count yet but I am L-1.

[el simo]

That is interesting Adrien, what about the omgus changed your mind? What does it say about my wagon? If you think it is so scummy why didn't you vote him?

[el simo]

That is interesting Adrien, what about the omgus changed your mind? What does it say about my wagon? If you think it is so scummy why didn't you vote him?

I didn't realize you were at L-1, until you said something. The OMGUS, which is typically a scum move, made me realize "Oh crap! This is not where I think we should be going". The wagon on you, like most Day 1 wagons, is all circumstantial and with more scum tell on the wagon than you, I decided I didn't want to be a part of it. I'm not voting just yet because my voting so far has been like climbing a tree that's almost cut down, after a few moments of starting, it looks less and less like a good idea until I gotta jump off before falling off.

Fair enough.

[el simo]

@El simo:
Do you think that the more discussion that has passed in day 1 will put town in a better position on day 2?

I've always adhered to try and drag out the days as long as possible, especially day one when we have very little information to go off. The longer the day is (in terms of game length, not rotations around the sun ) the more information we drag out, a lot of it may not be initially useful but later on in the game it builds up and can be very revealing.

[el simo]

I am not going to replace out. But i am a townie so it will not be a big lost to kill me. And giving up seems like the only way to go about this now. No one will look at anyone else. Maybe i am take up alot of time here but saddly you are paying attention to the wrong person. I know that i am a townie. And if i was scum wouldn't someone be defending me right about now. They would try to get you guys off my back to keep me in the game. I see no on doing that right now. Do what you must but no one can force me to leave this game. The only way is to lynch me.

Heard of bussing?

[el simo]

Heard of bussing?

What does bussing mean again?

Well Ness claims that if he was scum, his scum buddy would be trying to save him. But that is pretty rare the case, more likely than not we see scum 'bussing' each other, which simple means throwing them under the bus.

So instead of being buddy buddy with their scum buddy they kill them in order to gain distance.

[el simo]

I'm a little concerned about how easy everyone picked up that wagon. Will prove for an interesting reread tomorrow.

[el simo]

He was getting a little heated with DDD on what kind of role that experience plays in this game, disappeared for a page or two, made one or two posts, then repeat.

No.

DDD was the obvious choice for the night kill, in any game, he is too good and any scum with half a brain would know to kill him as soon as possible.

Since no one is posting a lot, I decided to examine DDD in D1. Hopefully this will lend itself to more discussion.
I ISO'd DDD's posts:

Posts with DDD interacting with ness I will leave out, as well as RVS and advice posts.
ISO 7, 9, 11 were about Hades and his self vote
ISO 14 He voted El Simo and then stated his actions as not pro-town.
ISO 15 Then after that further claims that the majority of El Simo's posts are contentless, and DDD says that this bothers him.
ISO 16 and 17 he asks Adrien "Where on earth did you get the idea that OMGUS was a scumtell?"
ISO 20 DDD asks Adrien if he has the same alignment as ness.


Obviously these posts are taken out of context. But DDD obviously thought these people warranted his comments. Perhaps he was on to something(or perhaps not). Nevertheless I am going to re-examine their(Adrien and El Simo) D1 posts to see who acted most scummy.

vote: Raber

What you are doing is the most anti productive thing a townsperson could do on day 2 and is exactly what scum want you to do.

So you're either bad town or scum. And in my experience it as always (actually, always, meta me if you have to) been scum.

[el simo]

Yeah this has gained too much too fast and all from one three line post. To the point where I'm starting to suspect the people on the bandwagon more than my vote.

I've got tomorrow off work so I'll do a read on everyone there and make my decision, but I urge nobody to hammer until then.

It is way to soon.

[el simo]

I'm fairly sure at least one, if not both, of the scumbags is not in that group.

Bingo.

unvote vote Adrien C

[el simo]

El Simo, I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I just believe that one or both the scumbags are probably lurking and watching, letting Espy go on the finger-pointing spree...probably laughing so hard, they can't stay in their seat.

And by the way, I'm

unvoting

Palmer since he gave a valid reason behind his gaps.

You named yourself in that list, you then said you are only fairly certain that one of the people in the list aren't scum.

As apposed to this, I can guarantee you that at least one person in that list is town, because I am in that list.

The difference in certainty leads me to believe that you just made a scum slip up.

[el simo]

I was saying that because I know for a fact I'm not, and I'm semi-sure you're not, plus the jury is still out on palmer. I'm not going to 100% vouch on you two, but the point I was trying to make is that I have a gut feeling the real scum is lurking and not really drawing any attention.

Fairly certain doesn't equate to I know for a fact.

[el simo]

I went back and reread the post after you pointed it out, el simo, but I'm not seeing a scumslip.

I would hope that you would be more sure of yourself not being scum than "fairly certain."

[el simo]

I went back and reread the post after you pointed it out, el simo, but I'm not seeing a scumslip.

I would hope that you would be more sure of yourself not being scum than "fairly certain."

There was a group of three people, including himself. He said he was fairly certain that none of the people in that group were scum. He was obviously referring to the other two of that group.

No he said he is

fairly

certain that

at least

one, if not both scum were not in that list.

Certainty pertains to being 100% sure, being fairly certain means that he is only fairly sure that at least one scum is not in the list.

If he was only referring to the other two people in the group then he should not have mentioned himself.

[el simo]

No I 100% understand what you are saying.

You are fairly certain that in a list of three, yourself inclusive, that at least one, if not both, scum aren't in that list.

Now you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

If you were town you should be more than fairly certain.

[el simo]

No, I understand what you're saying. You're twisting my words around to make me look like the bad guy.

I'm not twisting anything, nothing has been changed. They are exactly your words.

[el simo]

Oh whoops you said sure, doesn't change anything though.

[el simo]

This is what all the spotlight is on right now. El Simo, I’m pretty sure you have this wrong. All he is trying to say here is that he thinks that in the group of these three players, one or two are NOT in that group. He’s not saying that 1 or 2 are not scum, which is what I think you’re reading it as.

No that is not what I am reading it as, I'm not dumb. I know what he is saying.

Unbelievably none of you have picked up on what I am saying.

Fairly sure does not equate to being 100% sure, why would a townie not be 100% sure that at least one of the scum is not in the list, when the list includes himself?[/b

What he should have said is something like, "I know that at least one of the people in the list aren't scum and I'm fairly sure that El Simo/Other person isn't scum." etc etc

But no he included himself in the doubtful statement. This is called a

scum slip

.

[el simo]

That being said however I do still think that Adrien is quite scummy at the moment. Raber’s latest catch is probably going to be the clincher for me.
I also can’t quite shake the feeling that El Simo is bussing Adrien here. Looking at the situation, if I was Adrien’s partner right now I’d probably see that as a good move. I can’t help but feel that El Simo had a gun to Adriens head waiting for him to slip and we had this false scumslip fiasco as a result of El Simo being so eager to pounce on him. Does anyone else see where I’m coming from with this? Admittedly it’s a WIFOM prediction but it makes sense to me.

[el simo]

I'm reading towards Palmers being town as well.

I'll elaborate on my thoughts like you have done tomorrow, ACMelon.

Tomorrow being game time not world time.

[el simo]

Also mod, I think we could all appreciate a bit more punctuality and accuracy. If a deadline for the night is set I don't expect to wait until it's two days past for the day to begin.

I don't meant o be rude but I didn't see it changing unless someone brought it up so I thought I'd bring it up.

[el simo]

I'm sorry to hear that, truly.

Stop playing this stupid game and replace out.

[el simo]

And I was referring to last night.

[el simo]

....
....
....
....
....

I NEVER replace out of games. And I've NEVER flaked as a mod. You have no idea how serious it is to vanish when you're modding a game, the only way I'll ever do that is if I've died.

Replacing out isn't vanishing, it it the sensible thing to do when your life is a muck and you caused an accidental lynch.

I'm reading towards Palmers being town as well.

I'll elaborate on my thoughts like you have done tomorrow, ACMelon.

Tomorrow being game time not world time.

Lies and slander, I just didn't want him to kill me last night. I wanted to tell ACMelon that it is never a good idea to reveal your cards before night like that but I didn't want to risk anything that would possibly get me night killed so I said that instead, 'cause you not gonna kill someone who thinks you're town! I wasn't too sure about how to chase today but his hammer has to be the most obvious bus I've ever witnessed.

Looking at instance 2. Adrien can be ‘fairly certain’ of the comment he has made and be wrong and still be town. End of story. All town must digest this until you realise that this is not a scumslip otherwise your acting on false information.

This is all irrelevant because in instance one and two he should be certain that at least one isn't town, because he claimed to be town.

Any townsman would have said that they

know

at least one is town, he said he was fairly sure.

Obviously a slip.

I also can’t quite shake the feeling that El Simo is bussing Adrien here. Looking at the situation, if I was Adrien’s partner right now I’d probably see that as a good move. I can’t help but feel that El Simo had a gun to Adriens head waiting for him to slip and we had this false scumslip fiasco as a result of El Simo being so eager to pounce on him. Does anyone else see where I’m coming from with this? Admittedly it’s a WIFOM prediction but it makes sense to me.

Vote Adrien

That should be L-1

I've already made myself clear on WIFOM so that part is enough to make me vote you.

But added to that the suspicious circumstances of the hammer and I am 100% sure you are bussing.

You try to discredit my claim with irrelevant information so you can set up the bus, use it to WIFOM me into looking like the bad guy, hammer him and then try to defend yourself with a good ol' appeal to emotion.

This coupled with your already dubious play through out the game, I am more than happy with a

vote: Palmertrou

[el simo]

I would have thought that Elias would have been NK'd due to him being IC and all. Why wasn't he? Hmmmm.

Because he is inactive, most likely.

Replacing out isn't vanishing, it it the sensible thing to do when your life is a muck and you caused an accidental lynch.

She didn't cause an accidental lynch. What are you talking about? Besides, I'm sure she's big enough to make these decisions on her own, so lets leave her personal life out of the forums.

Why do you lie?

Damn. I completely didn't see Rabers vote and

counted from the mods vote count.

I want your explanation for this contradiction before I pursue this further.

My point isn't to abuse her, I asked her to start modding our game a bit more attentively. She brought up her personal life.

Just because I made a WIFOM comment, it's doesn't mean it's scummy. Hell, I even admitted that it was. It's good instincts in this game that can give you the edge. I'm a little surprised by your such strong leap onto this and it's leading me to think I might be onto something.

It is far from good instincts, it is poor and anti town play when played so early in the game. Admitting to murder doesn't get me off the hook. It doesn't matter that you said it was WIFOM, you might as well be saying, "I know this is scummy but [insert scummy action here]."

And you shouldn't be surprised at all because I have made my stance on WIFOM clear in this game, and acted upon it to.

You try to discredit my claim with irrelevant information so you can set up the bus, use it to WIFOM me into looking like the bad guy, hammer him and then try to defend yourself with a good ol' appeal to emotion.

You do know that I hammered mafia right? Why would I defend myself against hammering a mafia player? I think your a bit confused. Your argument doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Because it was accidental.

ARGHHH! tits!

Sorry guys. I seem to have hammered. Damn. I completely didn't see Rabers vote and counted from the mods vote count.

Fingers crossed Adrien is scum otherwise if he isn't and mafia succesfully kill a towny we are in LYLO day 3 with the gun pointed at me presumably. Which means town will probably lose as I am town.

Tough old day 3 for me if he doesn't flip scum. I take full responsibility for the loss if we lose this. Again, sorry if he isn't. I'm an idiot.

[hr]

What does WIFOM mean?

WIFOM is a form of circular logic that is common noob and scum play. It means wine in front of me and derives from a scene in The Princess Bride. You can read more about it here.
[/hr]

[el simo]

lol whoops never saw the line stuff up.

[el simo]

The thing preventing me from voting for palm atm is my doubt that he'd put his teammate at L-1 (assuming he mistakenly killed Adrien). That seems like a big risk, doesn't it? I don't think it's a risk that palm, as scum, would be likely to take.

This is the point of bussing.

[el simo]

Also, allow me to clear that doubt.

I also can’t quite shake the feeling that El Simo is bussing Adrien here.

Looking at the situation, if I was Adrien’s partner right now I’d probably see that as a good move.

He even admitted that he would bus him if he was his partner.

Now you have no reason not to vote him.

[el simo]

Ok just read it through, although he doesn't directly say he would clearly shows the intent that he would have done it.

[el simo]

Hahaha. So If I'd have said "I wouldn't bus Adrien here" would there be no issue? Seriously bud, are you sure you know what WIFOM is?

Did you even read my post?

[el simo]

If we accept that he is telling the truth about not seeing my vote, then he didn't know he was the hammer. Then should his WIFOM post be considered scum bussing, or just somebody freaked out he hammered when he didn't want to?

I can potentially prove this wrong

if he would reply to my post.

But he won't, and every seems to be fine with this. Which makes me believe that either the mods are messing with me and everyone else is scum or you just haven't read my posts. It is really frustrating when I'm trying to get this game rolling and everyone is just contempt to ignore me and ask questions that I've already answered,

I'll say again,

instead of just trying to demean me, perhaps you could reply to my post, palmer?

Your situation is identical to palm's. He thought that you were bussing Adrien and you think that

he

was bussing Adrien. What makes it more likely that

he

was the scum doing the bussing and not you?

If you'd read my posts you'd have an answer to this.

For starters, his case is based entirely on WIFOM surrounding the fact that I caught scum slip.

To add to this, his claim that I was bussing Adrien is ridiculous, he had just been put at L-1, and was only taken off because Elias played careful. Why any scum would bus their buddy over attacking someone who had just been very easily bandwagon'd to L-1 just doesn't make any sense to me.

My case is based on his use of scummy logic (see: WIFOM), playing irrelevant information to discredit me and his 'accidental' hammer, not to mention his already dubious play through out the game which others have brought up. The two scummiest things I've done (according to the town) are referring to the group as the rest of you and being wrong (although I'm not) about a scum slip.

[el simo]

You say that my 'case' against you is entirely based on WIFOM. I wouldn't say that I even started a case against you. I was just expressing my thoughts. Something > nothing.

Yes I understand that I was just speaking from the stand that he took in his question.

Off to work now will reply later.

[el simo]

Why do you lie?

I didn't quite get what you meant because I didn't lie.

Yet you clearly said you went off the mods vote count, if her vote count was wrong does that not lay blame on her?

Note this isn't an attack on her it is an important part of my case, just need a straight explanation before I pursue it.

[el simo]

I can understand your frustration Simo, it's hard work trying to get people into your way of thinking without over-emphasising your personal level of certainty by using terms like 'completly', 'definatley' and '100%'. As I'm town, this level of certainty makes me cautious of you as your either in for a big shock or your mafia.

I only used those terms in regards to Adriens slip.

You also speak pretty surely, for instance in the paragraph you claim you are, "sure as hell" not the choice for today. So what ever point you were trying to make is pretty null and void.

[el simo]

Q for clockworkMelon:
What part of El Simo's attack on me makes sense to you?

To be honest, very little of it. Everything I'm reading is convoluted. People keep mentioning WIFOM but I still don't understand to what you're referring. Yes, I know what WIFOM means but I don't know what has happened in the thread that could be referred to as a WIFOM situation.

We're referring to this:

I also can’t quite shake the feeling that El Simo is bussing Adrien here. Looking at the situation, if I was Adrien’s partner right now I’d probably see that as a good move. I can’t help but feel that El Simo had a gun to Adriens head waiting for him to slip and we had this false scumslip fiasco as a result of El Simo being so eager to pounce on him. Does anyone else see where I’m coming from with this? Admittedly it’s a WIFOM prediction but it makes sense to me.

[el simo]

The count was right at the time. Then Raber voted. I missed Rabers vote.

Oh shit so did I.

Not only does this blow my case out of the water (I was relying on what that would've meant had it been a lie) but it suddenly makes a lot of sense.

unvote

I'm no longer confident in my vote.

[el simo]

You say that my 'case' against you is entirely based on WIFOM. I wouldn't say that I even started a case against you. I was just expressing my thoughts. Something > nothing.
I will be building a case on the person who I think is most scummy but while it seems we have only El simo, Melon and I here don't see much rush. We are in a good position and we could win today if we're smart about this.

I'll say again, instead of just trying to demean me, perhaps you could reply to my post, palmer?

I see no questions here apart from:

Why do you lie?

I didn't quite get what you meant because I didn't lie.

Did you even read my post?

Yes, I did.

So I don't quite get what sort of response that your after. A retaliation? I don't really think your attack on me is strong enough to warrant one. It's mainly hypothetical. It's basically a very subjective view on what I could have been doing. For example, the whole argument based on the fact that I said about bussing Adrien in your position. There is an equally strong argument to say that I must definatley be town in light of Adriens Lynch.

Q for clockworkMelon:
What part of El Simo's attack on me makes sense to you?

So I'll reply to this properly now.

The reason I was so sure of my post was because I didn't notice Rabers vote either, unaware that he had voted after the vote count I thought that the mod had counted wrong, so when I read palmers statement that the mod hadn't caused the accidental lynch I thought he just contradicted himself, which would've implied a pretty obvious lie about the accidental lynch.

Seeing as this isn't the case anymore, the only thing I've got on palmers is that he WIFOM'ed too early in the game and what he had stated about voting ness off after the first night, and a disagreement about theory.

This is hardly convincing.

I understand why no one got my case on you now, with out the lie this all pretty unconnected and means very little.

I'll do a reread while we wait on more activity, I guess. Elias would probably be topping my list now so would love to hear from him.

[el simo]

Holding my thoughts until we got some info from Elias/his replacement.

[el simo]

Looking forward to hearing from you, can finally get this ball rolling.

With all this downtime I'd like to request an extension on our deadline too please?

[el simo]

Palmer it is my opinion that timing shouldn't be taken into account. Although it can indicate trends and lead to some what reasonable sounding conclusions, we have no way of knowing the truth, for all we know he could've just sent the night kill, he might not be posting because he isn't bothered, sending someone a name isn't the hardest thing to do. Maybe he was available during the night and hasn't been since, etc. There are too variables like this that can't be taken into account which is why I generally try to avoid speculation like this.

[el simo]

Firstly, Palmer.

Are you accusing me of doing it intentionally or are you accusing me of bussing. You can't have both. Why would I claim to have mis-lynched when I was actually bussing with a hammer? If I was bussing surely I would've been shouting from the rooftops.

Honestly? This is your defence? Why would I have done this thing if I was scum? <- To say those exact words!!!

Not to mention that you absolutely could have intentionally hammered and bussed, that is actually a hell of a lot more likely then bussing and accidentally hammering.

And I've already made myself very clear on WIFOM and you just did it, again, this alone makes me want to vote you.

I can see why you find it hard to believe that I did it by mistake.

I did read Rabers vote for him

but I never worked it out that that vote was L-1. Before I posted it I did a quick check to see what that would put him on using the mods count and in the time it took me to post and check I forgot about Rabers vote. Silly mistake but a lucky mistake all the same. if you don't buy it right now, fine, but you'll find out the truth in time I suppose.

You just caught yourself lying buddy.

Damn.

I completely didn't see Rabers vote

and counted from the mods vote count.

No reason for a town to lie.

vote: Palmer

I can not see a better lynch today.

@Simo
-You started a whole discussion with Elias who pointed something out against you, namely the ‘us VS them’-thingy. But later on, Palmer states that he can see this as a potential scumtell. But then, you ignore it. How come?
-In post 154, you state that Hades voting for himself was for looking into reactions. And according to you, that’s not something you play into. Later on, you state that nailing Hades for that would have provoked more reaction than your vote would have done.
So why vote, instead of doing the same thing as the others?
-I’m not a fan of your Raber vote at the start of D2. The games you’ve played is just a small faction of all mafia games, so the possibility is still there that he could be bad town in your eyes.

Sorry can you give me the post ## for your first point? I am pretty sure I got into an argument with Palmers about it so I need to refresh my memory here, it was quite a while ago.

Because I didn't find it very scummy, so I didn't have a reason to nail him. I'm not going to say something is scummy or a bad move just for a reaction when I do not believe that myself.

Yes but I'm not going to base my beliefs on things I haven't seen. In the games I have seen they were scum and so in the games I play I treat them as scum.

Also, hooray for activity!

[el simo]

unvote

un til i sobnre up in the morning

[el simo]

Ok so I'm not so much concerned about the quotes as much as I am about the claim because I've done the same thing as scum to claim cop in a game before so that doesn't really prove anything to me, how ever the fact that he is willing to claim is what puts me off.

I suppose I'm just waiting for a counter claim seeing as a scum counter claim would put them in an impossible situation so we can pretty much take any counter claim as authentic.

If palmer is the doc, I have no idea where to go from there.

Who did you protect and why during the two nights?

[el simo]

So you think Elias is town?

[el simo]

Because she disagrees with my scum slip.

[el simo]

HE*

[el simo]

@Simo
That post from Palmer was post 108 (Regarding my first point)
You responded to it in post 110/ 111, but not the point that Palmer also sees a potential scumtell in the 'us VS them' thingy.

Oh I see now.

Well it's simple really, she was expressing the same concern that Elias was. I had already answered to Elias and the conversation went no where, why bring it back up because someone agreed with him? She didn't have anything new to add either, otherwise she would've said so and I would've answered.

What are you talking about? I'm not understanding what's so mysterious about post 167.

I said she was scum (not directly but it was clearly implied and backed with intent to lynch), you said you agreed with me.

So the only people without alibis, so to speak, are me and Zaz. Kill us both if you have to.

This is horrible logic. El simo, could you look at his post, it seems like a similar slip that you caught adrien making D2.

The slip adrien made was that he wasn't sure of his alignment as town, "kill us both if you have to" implies that he is sure that zaz is scum, just through a simple process of elimination, it also implies that he is sure he is town, otherwise he wouldn't have offered the ultimatum to kill him if we have to. So I don't have an issue with his surety of alignment.

I do how ever, have an issue with him offering himself as a vice to prove zaz is scum. If we kill him and he is town, according to his logic zaz is scum, because he thinks that you and I are town.

But then you have to take into account our opinions, for instance, Raber, you have done nothing to prove to me that you are town, so I have no reason to kill zaz over you and visa versa with yourself and I, which is a shit position to be in lylo with.

This is incredibly anti town play, and as Zaz said, I see no reason why a townie would willingly put the town in such a shit position just because he thinks someone is scum, through faulty premises nevertheless.

[el simo]

Also, added regarding post 297, you're mentioning that the other players aren't mentioning the Simo-Adrien discussion to keep attention away from them. However, nobody else besides you, Simo and Adrien had posted before this post and after that discussion had started.
Scummy.

Maybe it's because I just woke up, but I'm struggling to make the connection here, sorry, mind spelling it out for me a bit more?

[el simo]

He tried to get palm railroaded into a lynch earlier today, and backed off of it after he saw all of us weren't going on the wagon.

You mean when I saw that Raber voted after the vote count not before like I had originally thought and realised the lie my case was built on didn't exist?

Yeah, sure.

As to whom I'm voting for, I really don't know. Palmer was the only person who I had any sort of certainty on, but he's the doc. I still don't understand why he lied if he is town, I'm guessing he was just scrambling for cover or something and slipped up.

I could see myself going for any of the rest of you today, because really I don't hold any of you in higher regards to each other, I suppose I'm due for a reread so I can make a decision before the deadline.

[el simo]

Really? Insults now?

This is the second time you've not responded to the post and instead replied with some sort of witty remark and a smiley face.

[el simo]

=Also, El Simo it would be nice if you posted before the deadline

I'm here, reading every post. I'm going to struggle to get a reread done though, what with the fifa world cup starting and what not, this is the biggest thing that has happened to my nation for 15 years and I tell you what there is just an unbelievable atmosphere surrounding it, so I'm pretty tied up for time with all the events going on.

How ever my timezone is the first in the world so I should be able to make a thoughtful post and a vote before the deadline in Haylens gst.

[el simo]

Having said that, you have barely posted any content yourself, so I'd also like to see something more from you before the deadline.

[el simo]

So reading through the players individually. I'll start with Rabers.

Nothing he has said stands out to me as scum. What I did notice how ever, is his unusual response to my reply to his WIFOM DDD post.

Normally when I attack people for using WIFOM, they defend their actions and carry on using WIFOM. And as I've said, they've all been scum (in my experience), seeing as Raber didn't continue with his theory and didn't try to defend his use of WIFOM and continue to do so, I'm inclined to believe that he is town.

That is purely based on the fact that he responded differently to the typical scum response I've had before.

So the logic behind clock and palm voting zaz is basically process of elimination? do people normally get lynched by this logic? Looks like I have even more to look over before the deadline.

Just saw this, thought I'd respond. I seem to recall myself doing it quite a fair bit, how ever I can't remember the outcome of it. I also seem to recall Battlemage doing it in a mini game we played, and quite a few other instances of it.

I can't imagine it would have ever been successful, seeing as it generally only applies to yourself and nobody else would pick up on it if it didn't work the same for them.

Zazier replaced in at a time that it would be hard for anyone replacing to make themselves look scummy. We were dead quiet waiting to hear from Elias, Zaz comes in to replace him and kick starts us off with a good fresh insight into the games play so far. I haven't agreed with everything he has said but that doesn't make him scummy. Zaz is neutral, I don't think we've seen enough of him for me to make a claim on his alignment.

I'm not going to read Elias because I don't like the idea of persecuting someone for something someone else did, could you imagine the situation ness' replacement would have been in had she replaced out and we attacked her on accounts of ness' behaviour?

The only thing I've seen as scummy after reading through ACMelon is in fact based on what he thinks about me.

He believes I'm town because I dragged Adrien all the way to the gallows from the start. Reverse that logic and the scum buddy connection between Adrien and ACMelon is pretty clear.

Which is pretty much what Zaz has been saying since Palmers claimed. Rabers says nothing about Zaz case screams scum to him, I say nothing about ACMelons defence convinces me that Zaz is wrong.

I think ACMelon would be the towns best bet at winning today, so I'm oing

vote: AClockworkMelon

[el simo]

Wasn't expecting ACMelon to show up town, was expecting Palmer to be NK'd.

It's lynch or lose now and just via a process of elimination I feel like my vote is leaning towards Zaz, but that is nothing I'm willing to vote on in this sort of situation so I'm gonna hold out on that for a while.

Today is my last day of work for the week, but unfortunately I have a busy weekend ahead, we just found a house and are moving tomorrow, my brother is also flying up to see us for a holiday and somehow I have to manage time for my mates 19th, so I'm not going to be able to post until about next Monday after work or so.

Just a heads up.

[el simo]

Monday New Zealand time, so Sunday for you guys.

[el simo]

Shocked to come back and only see one reply, kind of glad though.

Don't have much time, posting from work.

Just wanted to say we have moved into our new home but won't get internet up untill Wednesday so won't be able to post until then.

[el simo]

Sorry, only just got the internet back recently, still doing lots of unpacking and work isn't giving me a break, hopefully our new house will be sorted soon and I will have more time to dedicate to this.

[el simo]

I'll be honest, I'm not all that busy more. It's just that after a reread I've come up with nothing implicating either over the other.

The only thing I've got is through a process of elimination which I don't trust.

My gut says Rab, my head says Zaz.

[el simo]

Ok, I won't be home from work today because I'm going out straight afterwards, but once I've sobered up tomorrow I will get straight onto that so we can try and get this ball rolling.

[el simo]

So the espeonage kill seems a bit odd, he was playing pretty wishy washy and wasn't providing much for the game, easy scum target for the next day. His death doesn't seem to indicate anyone either, his two suspects was a known scum and a known doctor and from what I've read I haven't seen anything of him thinking someone is town or anything like that, so I'm not sure what you want me to read from this kill.

[el simo]

Waiting on Zaz's response.

At this point I will put my vote on Zaz before the deadline ends.

[el simo]

Did anyone suspect Raber? I'm going to re-read this tomorrow to see if there were any clues at all. At least I managed to declare that El simo eventually (on my deathbed) was town after gunning for him on and off most of the game.

I think this is unfair an unfair statement, anything could have happened, unfortunately nothing did.

I actually wasn't expecting the games end, I figured we'd have received a warning with a day left and we didn't so I assumed we still had more time. In fact, I'm quite unhappy with the way this game has been modded overall. Slow to update the votes, late on the deadlines, when going through personal trauma instead of doing the mature thing and replacing out as mod we were all left waiting for her and when questioned retaliated with a irrelevant reply, and then only became active and modded properly when everyone else went inactive.

For future references, it is definitely not irresponsible to replaced out if you can't keep up with the games pace for what ever reasons, and is most certainly not considered flaking.

Zaz had promised a statement which is what I was waiting on before placing a vote.

Very unhappy with the results.

Well done Raber.

[el simo]

At least I managed to declare that El simo eventually (on my deathbed) was town after gunning for him on and off most of the game.

I must have missed this lol