Newbie 976 - Game Over.

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But, the Main Guy for helping you this game is startransmission, he's the IC (inexperience-challenged) player. He'll be doing most of the helping.

Vote: Nobody Special

For pointing me out.

So yeah, I'm your IC for this game. That basically means that I've got a number of games under my belt and for the beginners here I should be considered a resource. Any questions regarding pretty much anything I will be more than happy to answer. At the same time, I have a role/alignment, and I will play it to win. Zorblag has linked the IC article, and that should explain my presence well enough.

Sooo... RVS (random voting stage) is underway... let's do this. If this is your first Mafia game, well then I envy you. It's a hell of a game.

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Hey folks, I'll have something up later today. Work sucks for me on weekends, but today is my Friday.

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Ahhh, my weekend is finally here. Let me get myself fed and showered etc. and I'll answer NS's questions as well as address one or two other things.

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1) Are you having fun yet?

I always have fun with Mafia games. This one has just started and there haven't been any real debates yet, but I have nothing but high hopes.

2) Chocolate or vanilla?

Er... well I love both. Depends on the item.

3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

I started playing Mafia at another site and played 6 or 7 over there, and modded one or two as well. It wasn't taken as seriously there, and I joined this site to play a longer and more advanced version. My record in my signature is (with the exception of Marathon games) accurate, and I have one other game that is currently is progress... so I guess that makes this my 21st game here on MS.

4) Lynch all Liars?

For the most part, if a player is caught in a lie then that is absolutely lynch worthy.

5) Math or Sports?

I enjoy both but I'm better at sports.

6) Lynch all Lurkers?

No. If the deadline comes along and the only resort is to lynch an inactive player then town hasn't been doing a very good job. Lynching lurkers is my least favorite of all policy lynches, and D1 is the only day that I find policy lynches acceptable.

7) What do

you

think of the RVS?

I love it. There are those that have issues with it, but I've always found it valuable for getting things going and in some instances it can be incredibly valuable for information.

Which leads me to the L-2 vote that Koch made. I have no problem with it. If Gandalf were quick-lynched that would likely be good for town, but there was little chance of that actually happening.

@Koch- In your opening post you didn't refer to the fact that your vote was putting Gandalf at L-2, but in your response to his question it sounds like you were aware. It's a small detail, but were you specifically aware at the time of your vote how many votes Gandalf already had? And what aggressiveness are you referring to?

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If the person lynched were town then you have a near guarantee that one of the last two votes were courtesy of scum. Depending on the situation town correctly assessing which one is scum is a likelihood.

Don't get me wrong, I like my days as long as possible with the most amount of information available to make the best lynch. But the fact is most D1 lynches are mislynches anyways, and having something like a quick lynch in RVS makes it far likelier that scum would be identified D2.

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Allright, I work tomorrow morning but will be posting in the afternoon. Apparently RVS isn't doing the trick here, and even the RQS hasn't gotten any activity rolling. I'll look at what we have and see what kinda string I can pull.

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Activity! Awesome.

Mod Note: It is worth noting that the comments DavidParker just made about the other game that he's in with startransmission are indeed more talk about an ongoing game that is allowed.

For the record, I have not been (in my recollection) in a game with DavidParker before. I have one other game going on currently, and he is not in it. I would not be inactive, nor would a game ever have successive quicklynches while I am the IC in it. Just saying. Furthermore, in 30 something games I have never seen a scenario as described by DavidParker in his post.

His reason for voting me is certainly weak, but I'll chalk it up to a semi-random one for the time being.

My brain is fried after 12+ hours of work, but I want to leave my initial thoughts of the posts made today. Friend is certainly not stifling discussion, and that comment is sticking with me. I would normally accuse Friend of being a bit overzealous, but I think this game needed a bit of overzealousness, and it's paid off in activity.

Oddly, it's not so much Friend's points against NS that put him on my scumdar, but how he's reacted. It's nothing special ( ), I'll elaborate tommorrow, and hopefully in *my* morning. Which means like 6 hours.

@NS, a small detail, but it's sticking. When you answered your own questions, you never answered what you thought of the RVS. But when you defended your RQS you mention how much you dislike the RVS. Why did you not answer that question in the first place? Why do you not like RVS? It should be pointed out that you cast the first vote, and offered no reason... meaning you initiated the RVS.

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Overzealous! Hm. I guess I can tone it down.

Don't you dare. There are a couple of instances of you making more out of something than perhaps I would, but like I said, it's been good for activity. I've gotten less aggressive in the past few months, and perhaps that's not a good thing. Play your game, if anything I like the questions you're asking.

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But I see now his reasonings for NS. Pretty solid.

Really? What do you like about his reasonings?

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Catching up a bit. Long day, lemme read, soak it in have a glass of wine and all that and then I'll post. Don't expect fireworks, I'm beat.

Speaking of which, this 4th of July weekend is not a fun one for your old pal Startransmission. By the time I have free time away from work I'm going directly to a block party where I'll be eating fatty food and drinking too much beer. I'll post at least once a day tomorrow and Sunday, but Monday is my true Saturday, and that's when my activity will pick up more.

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Hrm...

But I see now his reasonings for NS. Pretty solid.

Really? What do you like about his reasonings?

Aspen, you never answered my question. And now a vote? Explain.

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Unvote

For the time being.

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My weekend horrorshow is over. I'm off to go get blasted. I have the next three days off, and I have some comments.

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Ok, reading up. Sorry this took as long as it did.

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ST can't replace out (being the IC) -- so he really needs to get back in here and participate.

And, if you had bothered to read my question answers, you'll know I firmly believe in lynching lurkers. Yes,

generally

someone else presents as scummier, but in this case, no.

I'm really pretty sure at this point that ST is scum.

My weekend horrorshow is over. I'm off to go get blasted. I have the next three days off, and I have some comments.

While I don't expect players to be chained to their computer and have this website on an intravenous feed like I do (sometimes), I do expect a bit of contribution.

Here, we see that ST hasn't posted for almost 24 hours, after explicitly stating he had comments to make..

Let's apply a bit of pressure.

Vote: startransmission

While I'm sorry that I haven't been as active in the last few days as I'd like to be, my excuse is damn valid. It was a holiday weekend, and I spent most of it working and the rest of it unwinding. I was never in a state where I could sit down and give this game the proper attention. Yes NS, I find your vote incredibly scummy. After failing to explain your change of heart regarding Aspen you attempt to distract by moving attention on me for "active lurking". I've let you all know that my schedule was going to be bad tis weekend, and frankly my activity is not unusual for a holiday weekend. I'm glad you all have had an easy time posting, but until today I have not. Your attempt here is scummy, and is compounded by you caving into Friend, who didn't really put all that much pressure on you.

Vote: Nobody Special

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Regarding my meta, I think you'll find that my activity is steady (2-3 posts per day) whether I'm scum or town. The exception to that being Saturdays and Sundays, where I only post once or twice a day. The bigger exception is the times of the year that are typically busy for others as well, like Christmas and the 4th of July. Then it can be hard for me to post at all. But hey, it's only a few times a year where that happens.

[The main thing that made me unvote was the point about ST's meta -- I really have very little (I think one game) experience with ST -- and that wasn't a newbie game and wasn't (logically following) with ST as IC.

So then you didn't feel I was actively lurking? This makes no sense...

so, yeah, I succumbed to Friend's pressure and unvoted.

Ok, that makes more sense.

How long does it take to read 8 pages?

2.5 hours. I'm slow.

Also, I'm beginning to lean toward "Friend is too town to be town" [that argument gets me in trouble every time!].

Calling it now: Friend and ST scumteam. Mark my words.

Vote: Friend

Too town to be town is a logical fallacy, and a scummy argument. That it's directed at the player that has pushed you the most, and at a time when the pressure is mounting on you is no surprise. And then you continue to call me scum despite unvoting me and admitting that you don't know if my meta supports my "lurking" being scummy or not.

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I promised I wouldn't vote him, and hammering him seems the worst :/
surely someone else can!

I don't like this. It's one thing to not vote for him because you feel that he's town (and if that's still the case I want an explanation), but to do it because you don't want the responsibility of being the hammer rubs me the wrong way.

Also, what is your problem with probing other players and starting other possible bandwagons? We still have 10 days and can always come back to NS...

We have other days to probe other players. Ditching a strong BW gives scum time and opportunity to move the focus away from where it should've been.

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EBWOP: My reasoning for saying "You can't get much more scummy than this" is that Friend started my wagon, and is pushing so damned hard for the hammer.

He's being consistent, and you've only made yourself more scummy since the wagon was formed.

And please explain why I am scum, why Friend is scum, and how you see us being scumbuddies.

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I'm bewildered.

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Bewildered?

The vote from DavidParker. The folding that him and NS do after any sort of pressure is applied. The abrupt end to the day.

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Ugh what? You're the one who encouraged the end of day phase. Yeah I caved and voted him, but I had been getting a vibe leaning scum from him for a while, and just hadn't acted on it yet.

I encouraged sticking to the wagon and not abandoning it, I never encouraged the end to this day phase. And as NS requested, what was this vibe and why are you just now mentioning it?

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But really, you didn't take long to start pushing your next mislynch ST.. Twilight phase and already trying to sow the seeds for the next mis lynch?

So you know NS is a mislynch? And what mislynch am I orchestrating now?

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Agree.

@ST: 1) Well considering I just hammer'd NS, and NS stated he is still a VT, I think it's a safe assumption that we have just mislynched. 2) Mine.

Quite the preemptive defense you have here. No, even though there is no point for NS to lie, there is no guarantee of his alignment. No, I don't find you scummy for dropping the hammer. I'm bewildered by your sudden change of heart. I'm suspicious that you have one post where you breadcrumb that you find NS scummy, and that you have it ready to refer to quickly after the lynch. Your admitted contradictory behavior is worthy of mentioning, especially considering the circumstances. But I don't see where I've begun to set up your lynch, I haven't even begun to really ask you questions.

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Scum do that. It throws the town into confusion. I still think he's scum, but whatevs.

Even after being hammered as scum, I

never

admit that I am scum. Never. It's bad play, and it could possibly compromise your partner and therefore your WC.

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^ What? It's a lie that scum will not admit to being scum after being hammered?? It's not a lie, and anyone who had played for any period of time on this site will know that.

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I don't know how to respond to that. Other than lurking (which could be better referred to as RL as I've not actually lurked) I've done nothing scummy, and I feel no pressure whatsoever. I don't need to not look like scum. DP has made an assumption, and I'm explaining why it's not a good assumption to make.

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I agree, ST seems very defensive and he seems very jumpy right now.. Friend I'll need some convincing as his scum partner.

Defensive of what? Jumpy how?

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Gandalf and Aspen are at the top of my scumlist. There really is no third place for me right now. In fact,

Vote: Aspen

Gandalf, the situation you just described sounds nothing like the way yesterday ended. Where do you find the comparisons?

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I'm gonna need a lot more posts from ST today. Who do you think is scum? Who do you think is town?

I don't make a practice of handing out townie cards.

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Sheesh, fine. Any particular reason behind the gandalf suspicions besides his miscomparisons?

Wasn't trying to be harsh there.

My misgivings about Gandalf? His concern over being at L-2, but putting NS at L-2 after the wagon was solid. His explaining of that vote was too self conscience as well. His derision of DP's actions. His not voting for me despite believing that I am scum. He plays safely and keeps his options open. Read him in ISO, I actually recommend everyone do that.

All that said however, my vote lies elsewhere.

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@Gandalf, your post 271 doesn't explain a whole lot about why you're suspicious of me. You quote an exchange that I had at the end of D1 with DP. In fact, that's all you provide. Do you feel that my reaction to the lynch of NS (which I supported) was scummy? How so? I don't see a single thing that I can respond to as far as DP and I being scumbuddies, and I certainly don't see where I'm "acting like I don't know what he's talking about". What, in your own words, was he talking about? I'd like for only you to answer this for the time being, though I suppose DP has to make his case as well.

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Well, DP made a reasonably convincing case against you, and you answer the weak points, like lurking, but ignore the other ones. That just seems like a scummy thing to do. You've only responded to half his argument.

What's the argument? What am I ignoring? Where was I jumpy, and how was I defensive? What was I being defensive from? These are all key questions that nobody has chosen to answer, yet the votes are stacking up.

The late D1 actions from DP made him look potentially scummy. His defensiveness to my surprise (not accusations) at his reversal of opinion and consequent hammer led to him being suspicious of me. Ripe pickings for scum. One of the two will likely be lynched. Interesting, that there was no NK. It indicates that both DP and I were not only not considered an immediate threat, but designed to be targets for town. Somebody was considered a threat, and the doctor felt the same way. I have a guess, but for now I want the people who have voted me and (oops! how clumsy of me! ) put me at L-1 to present an actual case that I can respond to. As opposed to aping the opinion of somebody who felt that I was attacking him after his hammer at the end of D1.

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ST, what's your case on Aspen?

Nope. You guys first.

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I think the defensive one was DP. I made no attack on him, made no accusation, and he accused me of lining up the next "mislynch" and I had to take exception from that one. I was not jumpy nor defensive. I kind am now, as there is nothing more that I hate than being misrepresented.

And me asking for specifics for a case against me, when I'm at L-1 so early in a Day phase, is not being "jumpy".

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Clarification: Specifically the first half of that post. Why did you jump so soon to more accusations at a time when we should be getting info from a confirmed townie?

I never made accusations. Where did I? I stated the obvious, the change of heart by DP and the hammer was a bit bewildering. I never labeled him scum, I never built a case for his lynch, and I don't believe he is scum. I felt the lack of any action like that on my part spoke for itself. And I more than eluded to that at the end of D1 when I responded to the quote that you seem to think I ignored.

And please stop using DP (from the past...what does he think now... and I thought we were scumbuddies??...) quotes to validate your vote and the wagon you're on.

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You're not in a position to make ultimatums.

I'm at L-1. The responsibility is on the people riding my quickie (and predictable) wagon to explain their case. I won't be distracted by doing something my attackers won't do.

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I hope you are talking about a guess on who was saved (I see a couple who it's quite possible), but the fact they were saved means scum/doctor might think that this person is a PR (aka cop) so I think speculations on who was saved etc, and ESPECIALLY the identity of town PR's is something that should be kept to yourself.

Correct, I was referring to the person targeted, not on who a potential doc may be. Sorry if I was unclear on that.

More later, off to work.

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VOTE: Startransmission seeing as everyone else basically unvoted.

ST, for the last time, what is your Aspen case? We made a case on you and you acted like it wasn't there. Ignoring cases made against you isn't going to make them go away.

Ignored? I want bullet points on the case against me, as I really don't understand it. I'll happily respond to all of them. At the moment I feel I have responded to everything that has been mentioned. Which is easy to do, as it seems to only involve a twilight discussion between DP and I.

My Aspen case is basically a combo of his play, when and why he got on the NS wagon, and the process of elimination.

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^ And frankly, I got a feeling I can respond to the points against me purely through quotes of myself.

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If you used the process of elimination, then surely you came up with a scumbuddy too. Who would that be?

I don't deal in scumbuddies until a scum is actually lynched. Otherwise it's pure academics, and can be a distraction from actual scumhunting.

There are two other questions directed at me. I'd like to get to them tonight, but I'm zonked. Likely tomorrow. In the meantime I want those bullet points I mentioned...

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Aspen's case is quite obvious. He bandwagons knowing that it's wrong, he lurks, and he posts a lot of WIFOM arguments knowing it's WIFOM. He seems to know what townie actions are but doesn't follow them. Kind of antitown, obviously.

I feel that it's obvious as well. My vote for him was because (a. I suspected him for all the reasons that have been mentioned by most players through this game as well as (b. he was on a mislynch wagon for all the wrong reasons, therefore a bit of process of elimination and (c. to pressure him and see how he reacted. Which is why I worded my suspicions of him and Gandalf so strongly.

Friend is a wild card, he struck me as very townish on D1, but that's not a guarantee of anything. He started in on NS and NS did not come off well. Despite recent events I'm leaning town. I am town. DP is town. I know that because I investigated him last night. I am the cop. So that leaves Aspen and Gandalf. I believe at least one scum was on the NS wagon, and hence my suspicion of those two specifically.

Give me a bit and I'll get into those "bullet points".

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I think now is a better time than any if a real cop is out there to counter claim. Don't see any reason not to.

In the even of a non-counter claim, I think we have to decide between a gandalf lynch and an aspen lynch.

Real quick before I make dinner and stuff, I would prefer a Gandalf lynch. In fact,

Unvote, Vote: Gandalf

My feelings about him (other than just him being on the NS wagon, thought that's a large part of it) will come with my views on the case against me. They're connected.

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I'll try to break stuff up as to not get too wall o' texty...

2. You

did

act defensive and jumpy at the end of D1.

But really, you didn't take long to start pushing your next mislynch ST.. Twilight phase and already trying to sow the seeds for the next mis lynch?

So you know NS is a mislynch? And what mislynch am I orchestrating now?

I understand it's all perspective, but I don't see how this comment is either defensive or jumpy. Despite NS's post hammer claim (which I later explained proves nothing) I felt it was odd to label a lynch a mislynch before the flip. And I took umbrage with the NS lynch being labeled as

my

mislynch. I also at no point began to attempt to assemble a DP wagon, so that part of the quote confused me as well. I think those are fair questions to ask.

^ What? It's a lie that scum will not admit to being scum after being hammered?? It's not a lie, and anyone who had played for any period of time on this site will know that.

Perhaps I used one too many question marks? Once again I don't see how I'm being defensive or jumpy. What I said here is fact, and knowing that NS has played more than one game here I felt that his calling that a lie very odd.

I agree, ST seems very defensive and he seems very jumpy right now.. Friend I'll need some convincing as his scum partner.

Defensive of what? Jumpy how?

How are these not fair questions? The things I had been accused of were pushing a D2 DP lynch (which I wasn't) and somehow being responsible for NS's lynch- which I wasn't, I supported the wagon and put him at L-1.

I don't know how to respond to that. Other than lurking (which could be better referred to as RL as I've not actually lurked) I've done nothing scummy, and I feel no pressure whatsoever. I don't need to not look like scum. DP has made an assumption, and I'm explaining why it's not a good assumption to make.

I can't exactly pinpoint what it is, but it feels so much like something scum would say. I know you're gonna jump all over me for this one, so maybe someone else can help me out. It's the presumptuousness, like almost arrogant scum.

Fair enough, I can't help you with this one. I felt that I was explaining my though process and my actions after the lynch D1. I'm sorry I came off badly, but I was just being frank.

4. Refusing to address any of these points until we provided you with these goddamn bullet points.

I really feel I've addressed these points before. I was addressing them as the discussion was happening.

5. NOT MAKING ANY SORT OF CASE ON ASPEN even when asked multiple times. This is not a case:

My Aspen case is basically a combo of his play, when and why he got on the NS wagon, and the process of elimination.

I wasn't pushing for an Aspen lynch, so I wasn't going to put together a big case, especially when Aspen only has 8 posts in the game. I've since explained my reasons for voting him. I was hoping to engage him early in the day and explain my suspicions as I questioned him, sadly he was a no show.

You happy now? Now tell me why Aspen is scum, and it better be good.

I never said Aspen was scum, I said he was one of my top two suspects, and I've explained why both before and after my claim.

Final word on this. I felt NS was scum. His behavior near the end of D1 was IMO very scummy. Perhaps I should've waited longer, but I felt that putting him at L-1 could yield some interesting discussion, and perhaps the pressure would absolve or clear NS of being scum, depending on how things turned out. When DP, who had previously said that he would not vote for let alone hammer NS does just that so soon after my vote my reaction was

I'm bewildered.

And I certainly was. I wasn't angry or accusatory, but I was certainly surprised and a little suspicious by the quick turnaround. I explained this at the time, and DP seemed to know why I was bewildered,

By me contradicting myself?

I do that a bit :/

Yeah, the contradiction was a large part of my surprise, but not really all of it. But when I explain why I was bewildered DP says this,

Ugh what? You're the one who encouraged the end of day phase. Yeah I caved and voted him, but I had been getting a vibe leaning scum from him for a while, and just hadn't acted on it yet.

I certainly did not encourage the end of the Day phase. That is a false statement, and I suppose I didn't react too well to it. What I did was support a wagon of somebody I felt was scum and put NS at L-1. That is not a declaration that I think that the Day should end within minutes of my vote, especially when I was in the middle of asking NS question. My view was that NS was likely scum and his wagon should not be abandoned or put on hold, as was suggested by DP, and that DP's wanting somebody else to drop the hammer was something that felt off to me. By no means is that me pushing DP into dropping the hammer, and DP has to know this as he admitted to being contradictory with his statements. That, combined with his immediate defensiveness over him hammer, and what I felt was misrepresentation of my comments led me to investigate him N1.

This is pushing a lynch,

Alright. A hammer needs to be dropped. Who's gonna do it?

No, I'm not saying Friend is scum for saying this, but it's something I should've commented on when it happened. My focus at that time was on NS.

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Shit. Apologies for the tag failure...

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And I'll get into why I think Gandalf is scum other than just being on the NS wagon, and I'll also address DP's opinion that killing an uncountered PR claim is a good course of action. Hopefully I'll get the tags right this time...

Oh, and Framm18 and Koch and Friend and ThePerson could all be scum, (I would lean towards Koch were a gun to my head) but I'd like to focus on the scum that's on the NS wagon, as I'm sure they are there.

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Until Aspen is replaced and we hear from that replacement my vote will be on Gandalf. There's the fact that he's on the NS wagon, though reading through D1 he interacts with NS very little, and spends most of his time theorizing on scumteams. Friend could be the scum on that wagon, but my gut says it's far likelier to be Aspen or Gandalf based on their play and where they are on the wagon. The fact that Aspen has abandoned the game makes me feel stronger that Gandalf is that scum.

After yesterdays lynch I was accused of doing three things that I did not do. That would be being somehow responsible for DP's hammer and therefore apparently the entire NS wagon, trying to end the day phase early, and trying to set up the next days lynch using DP's hammer against him. I was falsely accused of these things by DP who was being, may I say, jumpy and defensive. Those are the arguments against me today, nothing else other than lurking (working over a holiday weekend) which I'm not going to give any regard to. The arguments are ridiculous and ones that I felt I was rationally addressing as they were occurring. I should have seen it more yesterday, but after the lynch and DP's arguments that it was all my fault and that I was trying to get him next, combined with his apparent feeling that lynching an uncountered cop claim on D2 is the way to go based off his deeply flawed theories/beliefs makes it clear to me that DP is a Village Idiot. One other player knows this and comments on it,

DP and koch. Normally I would think that DP couldn't possibly be that stupid, but I played a couple of marathon games with him, and he quite possibly could be that stupid. I'm not sure whether he really is that stupid, or if it's something he puts on so that you can't get a good read on him, but it would not surprise me if he threw in koch's name just because he was his partner.

All of post 224 Gandalf gives further examples of how... bizarre DP's play is.

Day 2 starts. Two players are going to be under the microscope, that would be DP and I. Gandalfs first post of the day,

Actually, I'm thinking a DP/ST scumteam. Their interaction in twilight very much reminds me of the dynamic between me and Sotty when we were scumbuddies. I bussed her, and she acted like my accusations were worthless without actually bothering to refute them.

Not ready to throw down a vote just yet, however.

Is him making yet another scumteam accusation (I can't tell you all how much of a waste of time looking for scumbuddies is when you've lynched no scum, it's all guesses and is not an effective scumhunting method) but not committing either way. Classic holding a foot in the door of the two likeliest wagons and waiting for others to build cases/make accusations before making a choice. But when I mention Aspen and Gandalf as my top two suspects, Gandalf uses DP's quotes, and little else, to explain his vote for me. All he has done is parrot DP's "case" against me, agreeing with him at every turn.

Indeed, DP, indeed. And ST, you're the IC. Shouldn't you know this?

Quite the turnaround from feeling that DP was not only a player that did and said stupid things almost constantly, but was also likely scum. It's opportunistic and phony, and puts him ahead of Aspen, of whom we have very little information.

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Why did you include Friend in with Koch, theperson, and me? He was the one that pushed probably the hardest for NS to be lynched.

He pressured and questioned NS for most of D1, and I don't feel that he was unfair. I agreed with him. I found nothing scummy in his actions. That said, I don't know his alignment. He's a wild card to me right now. My focus is more on Gandalf and Aspen. I'll look at Friend again depending on how today shakes out.

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Town players (in my eyes): Me, Framm 18

You might've addressed this already, but why do you feel Framm18 is town?

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Okay, let me summarize what you said in that response to the second quote, because it's kind of confusing. "You accuse the two scummiest players in the game of being scum together. You don't vote yet though, because you don't want to have to explain your vote switch when the wagon goes nowhere(insert faulty explanation for why this is scummy).

It's fencesitting, and that's scummy. It's also another reason why dealing in scumbuddies is a bad idea, it's something that scum do in order to have as large a pool of suspects as they can in order to breadcrumb their suspicions for later votes, depending on which wagons go where. You've dealt almost exclusively in scumbuddies all game, only voting a specific person when a case or an argument has been made by somebody else.

Then you use the case that one of them used against the other as an explanation for your vote." The first part isn't scummy at all. I can't point out a connection between the scummiest players in the game?

What was the connection? Our discussion at the end of D1? And why do you feel that DP is scummy? If you feel that way, then why are you parroting his faulty case against me, especially when you know what an erratic player he is?

Second part: It's simple. If I had voted for DP, I'd just be sitting here right now with my vote doing nothing.

If you had voted for DP then you would need to explain why you felt he was scummy and you would be sitting here with your vote on the person that you find scummiest. Which is the idea, and ideally you would be questioning DP and feeling out your suspicions. Again, why did/do you feel that he's scummy?

And then, if I switched my vote, you would all yell at me to explain it, even though I already had.

Your explanation was lacking. It reminds you of an exchange between an old scumbuddy of yours? Hardly a solid basis to refer to two players as scumbuddies. And why would you be afraid to switch your vote? As long as you explained why in then it shouldn't be a big deal.

I find you both equally scummy, so why wouldn't I wait and see what everyone else was thinking?

You find us both equally scummy, but when I name you as someone I suspect you quote the other person that you think is equally scummy to validate your vote?

Third part: Scumbuddies can be the perfect source of legitimate cases at times. If you build up a crappy case, then the bussing is almost irrelevant.

I think I'm missing your point here, can you clarify? Are you saying that DP is bussing me, and that's why you feel his "case" is legitimate?

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Dammit, me and the quote tags all of a sudden.

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I agree that NS did come off as scummy, but I was just asking since the bolded part comes off as saying that Friend was not on that bandwagon while in fact he was the one leading that wagon.

I understand that, but that's part of why I don't suspect Friend as much as the others. It was his wagon, he built it, NS made himself look very scummy when dealing with it. Aspens reasons for being on were weak, and I'm explaining why I feel Gandalf is scummy to me. I don't have anything against Friend other than he was the author of a mislynch. But I can't fault him for that as I agreed with him and joined the wagon myself.

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Anyone want to summarise for me?

But please do read all of the game so far. Welcome to it by the way, I like the others am very interested in your views.

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@ST: Framm 18 is town because that's the overwhelming feeling I get from him. If he was scum, I would be ridiculously surprised.

So, it's just gut? Nothing wrong with that, but some elaboration would be nice.

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P.S. Thank you for at least having somewhat of a case, be it based on one post, but still at least it is more direct then ST's way of accusing me.

When did I accuse you? I referred to you as a wild card, as I don't really have much insight into your alignment right now. I'm not really even focusing on you. My line of questioning towards Friend was intended to see what his insight was, not to necessarily disagree with him in his views towards you. Just because I'm curious as to why he feels so strongly that you're town doesn't mean that I feel otherwise. Believe me, if I'm accusing you you'll know.

What's happened to Gandalf? When the pressure was on me he was posting very regularly to join in.

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Unfortunately he couldn't protect himself it seems...

So, what did your magic-8 ball tell you ST?

That you are indeed scum?

What is this post? I'm extremely glad I investigated you N1.

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It means:

It seems Friend couldn't protect himself last night...

What was your investigation result?

Or are you just scum?

He could've, but he apparently chose not to.

The F11 setup is the current game format used in Newbie games. To prevent the development of game-breaking strategies, these Newbie Games are Semi-Open. The actual game setup is randomly chosen from one of four possible setups as detailed below:

• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Sane Doctor, 5 Townies
  
• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Doctor, 6 Townies

Believe it or not, we are dealing with the first setup. Meaning the mafia have a roleblocker and used that ability to prevent my investigation. Nothing surprising there.

Yes I'm interested to hear what ST has to say. If he is the cop, he should have some news for us.

To me this a very good indicator (amongst others) that Razor is scum. This falls into the gloating tell that often follows either a NK or a blocked NA. It's a very common scumtell. And it's something I was expecting, as I knew what the setup was yesterday, and had no illusion that I would be NKed. What Razor is doing is playing off the paranoia of the town.

And DP's post is ridiculous as (a. he should know that if I were the cop I would be roleblocked and (b. what the hell? Yes, I investigated myself and guess what, I'm scum after all! The post was unproductive to say the least.

There's much more to comment on, and I'll have to get to it later tonight. I still want a Gandalf lynch, but I'd like to hear from him or his replacement. Razor is very high on my scumdar, in fact I'd be ok with his lynch, but I need to explain why in further detail as well as ask some questions.

One thing before I get back on, for the love of god, I know that scum (likely) quickhammered yesterday and all- but we need to slow this shit down. We're on D3 and we're only 18 pages in? That doesn't allow for the time necessary to achieve the information needed to make the best lynch decisions. Yeah, yesterday was a fluke, but let's calm down on votes, or at least on letting wagons grow too large too fast.

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@ST: What else do you have? I get having a life outside of this game, but it feels like you keep saying that you have something to comment on and that you will get it later and then you seem to forget about it.

I don't think I've forgotten anything, but if I have point it out and I'll address it. The things I wanted to touch on in my last post will hopefully come later tonight. At the moment I'm in the middle of a hellish work week and I'm exhausted, but getting to what I want to get to is a priority for me.

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The thing is, I wouldn't expect DavidParker to miss that case. Why?

(For those unaware I claimed cop as a VT in my last game with NS)

However, I think ST is experienced enough to know not to do that, especially in a newbie game.

What's more is that I feel that goes directly against a town WC, and therefore is close to breaking the rules. Imagine if I were only a VT and claimed cop, but there was a real cop out there who counterclaimed. One of the two of us would be lynched, not scum.

I know I keep putting it off, but I have to go to work so my case on Razor etc. will have to wait a bit longer.

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Right now a Gandalf/RazorStar scum-team seems quite possible. Although i am still suspicious about both theperson and ST. The cop claim was just done at an inopportune time, and has made him useless as a cop. If he was at L-1 claiming cop would have been different, because he's forced into a claim, but claiming before he's near-lynch... Just makes himself useless...

I'll remind you that I was at L-1 yesterday before I claimed. I got it down to L-2, but it was becoming clear that revealing my role and my result was the best course of action. I feel strongly that scum was on the NS wagon. By revealing that I am the cop, and that you were town as well I would hopefully convince town that either Aspen or Gandalf was scum. Gandalf's behavior was cementing my suspicion for me, and I felt that narrowing down to two players that had a very high probability of one of which being scum was worth revealing my role. Especially with a doctor around. Forfeiting my ability to investigate was worth the chance of lynching scum... especially if the scum that was lynched was the RB.

Also consider how much value just one investigation has for town. When I die tonight you will be a confirmed townie for the rest of the game, or at least D4. That will be an enormous benefit for town during a crucial endgame. Far from useless. I could've tried to hide my role, and in some games as a cop I've successfully remained alive and didn't reveal my role until the last day. That's always nice, but it's a gamble. I could've been killed any night and offered town nothing. In this game I'm the IC, which is always a likely target for scum NK's. I was in a situation where my claim helped town and very possibly isolated scum. It was the right move.

@ST: Can you please restate fully why you chose to investigate me night 1?

Your bizarre play during D1. The contradictory statements/actions. The premature hammer. Acting like I was responsible for your vote and was trying to set up your lynch because of it. Misrepresenting me as "jumpy and defensive" for merely pointing out the obvious and expressing my surprise at the turn of events. Strongly feeling, after the NS flip, that at least one scum was on the wagon. I knew I was town, and I had a town read on Friend. Aspen and Gandalf were up in the air for me. So you were the natural choice.

And I'm glad that I did investigate you. Since then you have supported the lynch of an uncountered town PR claim, chose to only deal with hypothesis and potential scum buddies, and hopped on and off of wagons erratically. It seems that with almost every post of yours I have to remind myself that you are indeed town.

Vote: Araneas

Weclome to the game. I know this isn't a great way to welcome you, but I'm very sure you are scum. The fact is if you aren't scum then there was no mafia on the NS wagon, and that's unlikely. Combined with Gandalf's play during D2, including disappearing once the focus was on him- pretty much sells me. I'm still very interested in your perspective though.

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Congrats scum!

Well, a rather frustrating morning. I have to compliment Arenneas's entrance. It was enough for me to unvote, but sadly the thread was locked and game over once I was done making my post. He still would have been high on my suspect list, but I was beginning to lean towards a Razor lynch.

DP, I can't fault you for voting for somebody who you felt was scum. But to put someone at L-1 in a situation like that was incredibly reckless, especially with Razor being as scummy as he was. We had plenty of time before the deadline, and not everybody (most notably me, as I was going to unvote) was able to react and question Areannas.

I especially want to congratulate TP. I had a pretty null read on him for most of the game. I think that if the Razor lynch would have happened, it would take a lot to build a solid TP case on D4. Good work.

The game moved too quickly, wagons formed too fast. Every time another scumpair prediction was offered I wanted to tear my fucking hair out. They are incredibly useless, and often dangerous. I tunneled a bit, and I was aware of that. I just couldn't wrap my head around Gandalf being town. That said, I was very impressed by Arrreaannnas and I think my biggest mistake was voting before I heard him out. I just didn't expect the wagon to grow so quickly, but I should've expected it, as that's how every wagon has been in this game.