Newbie 976 - Game Over.

[theperson]

VOTE: Mego

This game would have started earlier if it weren't for you!

And hi again, gandalf! Look forward to playing another one with you!

[theperson]

Yeah, I wish that too. I've thought that multiple times before. <----Well, I can't think of another smiley that fits better...

VOTE: gandalf5166 for being a hypocrite.

[theperson]

It's not TOO risky, I agree, but it shows bandwagoning, and eagerness to get someone lynched. Scum want people lynched as soon as possible, so bandwagoning is seen in many people's eyes as a scumtell. Two votes in RVS on one person is quite normal but sometimes 3 seems to be taking it a bit too far, especially when there's no real reason for the vote. Some people find it more scummy than others.

Pressure does help open up games, but there's not much pressure in the RVS because there's nothing to defend against.

Koch, I don't see gandalf displaying much aggressiveness towards you. Gandalf was very aggressive in the game he played with me in the beginning, but he got much better in terms of that over the last game. I don't really see any of his posts being very aggressive.

I will be V/LA from tomorrow until July 4th, not being able to post on either of those days.

If a replacement is necessary, I understand, but if it isn't, I will be .

[theperson]

OK, I got back. Now to read through. A lot has happened, I'll try to get a post up soon.

[theperson]

Gandalf, obviously your playstyle isn't that scummy, because you didn't get lynched in the last game.

This is all very confusing to me, missing all this time. I did not expect all this activity...I've gone over the game once and I'm going to go over it again because I haven't picked up anything that was missed by everyone else (Deja vu from last game). Honestly, this feels like being replaced in...I'll post again after I reread through, and tell you what I find. (Hopefully something new this time!)

Sorry to keep you all hanging, but I'd rather take some more time and make meaningful posts rather than just post repeats of everyone else. That's a big mistake I made in my last game.

[theperson]

Sorry, something came up that prevented me from not posting. I'll not share what it was, because last time I did (in another game), everyone accused me of lying. So, I'll just post what I have, and apologize for making this more difficult.

At first, Aspen and DavidParker looked scummiest to me.

DavidParker, I didn't like how he was promising not to vote NS, then said he was kidding and did. He may have, as scum, not expected a NS lynch to be possible so just said this, than regretted it later and tried to find a way out. Also, he became defensive after ST was getting mad at him for the hammer.

Aspen's case is quite obvious. He bandwagons knowing that it's wrong, he lurks, and he posts a lot of WIFOM arguments knowing it's WIFOM. He seems to know what townie actions are but doesn't follow them. Kind of antitown, obviously.

Then recently, there's the whole ST thing. It looks like he's trying to put off this Aspen case, possibly even waiting for him to post more to form a stronger argument. If he posted what I (and many others) posted about Aspen earlier on, then fine. But now he makes this big deal out of it, wanting bulleted points for some reason. I'm interested to see what Aspen says after being prodded, and will be really suspicious if that post becomes a main part of ST's argument (unless it's really scummy). But I agree, ST better have something special on Aspen, because he sure put you guys through a lot of work to get it.

Framm18, I think has been helpful to town, not too much scummy. I like how he wants me to get in here and do something. I promise I will be more active after catching up (which I have, btw). I just get a bit lazy, I put off the rereading for too long. I apologize again to all of you and I hope I become much more active from here on out.

Koch, I don't like how he came in and, to quote gandalf (because I like how he put it), "parroted ST's case". The thing is, I did the exact same thing in my first game. It's either noob scum or noob town. The difference I find between Aspen and koch is that Aspen admits to everything and says he knows it's wrong. Then he should have no reason to do it if he wants to help town.

Gandalf, I think has been helpful to town as well. He has been playing more towny than in the last game I played with him (he was scum), making more meaningful posts. The only think I don't like and am confused about (besides the L-2 thing, that has been covered enough) is how he says his scumteam is "cinched" if something happens (koch parroting another case). Does that mean you have your #1 and #2 locked down there, or that you're sure they're both scum? Would a town flip change your mind?

Friend gives me a town read as well. I think the early argument between Friend and NS was extremely bad for town. It started fighting over the RQS and ended up ultimately causing a mislynch. Yes, NS did say that he wanted to lynch Friend and ST, but NS was a VT, I think he was just mad at Friend for getting him lynched and felt he must be scum. So yeah, I believe Friend is town because his posts other than arguments with NS have been helpful to town.

Also, Framm18, I am also really confused about what ST said. The first time I was like, "whatever." The next time, I was like, wait a minute.

1. How do you know you or DP wasn't the one that got NKed and protected?
2. Why can't you be scum, and that's why you're still alive?

So I want a LOT of responses from ST (as does everyone else I believe), and from Aspen. Again, I am planning to be more active. Sorry to be repetitive as well!

I will VOTE: startransmission until he answers this and talks about his Aspen case, and point out that he is at L-2.

[theperson]

I guess I'll UNVOTE: startransmission for now, although DavidParker does have a point that he could be scum, but with this claim I would prefer to lynch Aspen. I don't want to risk a PR lynch, because that would be pretty bad. Yes, we would have a confirmed townie and doctor , but we would still have 2 mafia members left and be in mylo. I'm keeping my mind open, though, so feel free to try to convince me otherwise.

Also, I'm really confused as why the vote to gandalf rather than Aspen. ST, you're talking about how Aspen is one of your top suspects, and now given a choice between gandalf and Aspen, you choose gandalf. Was gandalf even higher up in your suspects? If so, why?

As I have said, I'm much more suspicious of Aspen than gandalf and I will choose to believe ST for the time being.

VOTE: Aspen

With ST's unvoting he's now at L-3.

Oh and ST, you still didn't answer the question about you and DP being targets.

[theperson]

Hmm...

ST, that's a good point...Hadn't noticed that. I might place my vote on gandalf soon. I'm also waiting to see the replacement for Aspen. I'll leave my vote there for now, just to maintain the pressure, but Aspen could be noob scum. It seems like he might have just gotten bored so he stopped posting. True, that's a null tell, but it shows he's a noob and makes his prior actions a bit less scummy. I'll still be watching his replacement closely, though.

As for ST...It seems like you're avoiding the question I've asked you twice and framm has asked you once...

[theperson]

I'm really waiting for 0x1de's thoughts. Maybe it will be a bit more useful to town than Aspen's thoughts...

[theperson]

He said you GOT a town read from everyone, AKA he's asking 0x1de what he thinks about everyone thinking you're scum.

DavidParker: Is that your only evidence? Framm has a lot of posts, do you feel that one post constitutes a vote?

[theperson]

I'm going to have to wait for 0x1de to post a little more before I decide what I think of that slot.

The ST claim, it's kind of hard to tell. If mafia is 2 mafia goons, and ST is one of them, then a cop thing would be the obvious thing to do when he's about to be lynched. On the other hand, if he's cop, it's also the obvious thing to do. Looking at his ISO, he seems kind of scummy to me but his defense was pretty good. So I'm not really sure on this.

Starttransmission's behaviour seems consistent with his cop claim

What makes you feel that way? Can you point out posts that make you think that?

[theperson]

Well, we have plenty of time. If 0x1de doesn't do anything scummy and is really helpful to town, then I guess gandalf is most likely to be scum just due to process of elimination. I also think that koch played rather scummy. I'm waiting for his replacement too.

Right now, with two replacements, I really have no clue who I want to lynch. Hopefully we'll get to know more about the replacements by deadline. (Which isn't for another two weeks, so we're good for now.)

[theperson]

Have you already read through the thread...?

[theperson]

What do you have to say for koch? Can you explain his actions?

[theperson]

So your last post was assuming mafia just didn't submit a NK and there is no doctor? If that was so, then the mafia would have to be both really inactive, and I don't think there are two people inactive enough around day one's end for that to happen. True, it's a case, but I don't find it very likely.

If ST and you are scum, that would be one heck of a gambit, but it is possible. I don't understand why you are bringing it up, though...

[theperson]

Basically, if we lynch a goon today, and we are in a setup with no roleblocker, then the optimal scum play would be to kill the claimed cop

If there is a doctor and we are in the setup with no roleblocker, then the optimal scum play is not to lynch the claimed cop, because they know he's not a cop.

[theperson]

Well, I agree that all those scumteams seem among the most likely. I don't think you should completely eliminate those other cases, but I do agree with the elimination of gandalf/RazorStar because of what you said, and it's especially unlikely considering it's koch's first game.

I have a question about something that might come up. Say we lynch town today, and it's mylo tomorrow. Do we lynch someone, or do we no lynch to narrow down the suspects? I've thought about this and I can see arguments for both ways.

[theperson]

I forgot DP unvoted...When I saw RazorStar vote, I thought it was a hammer...

RazorStar, are you voting for the same reasons mentioned by others? I know you said your top suspect is gandalf, but I still want reasoning because you said it was a hunch at that time.

[theperson]

I agree, we had plenty of time. We got lucky that 0x1de was not doctor, that really would have hurt for him to not be able to claim. But then, there's the NK. We all were fairly sure that Friend was town. Now, we lost a player that was usually considered town, and with that we lost our doctor, AND we lost precious time at the end of day 2.

Now, it's mylo because we have no doctor to possibly save us. As DP said, be really careful. 4 votes on a townie and it's all over.

Also, I do not think a no lynch is a good idea because DP would almost certainly be NKed. All that would happen is we lose a confirmed townie's opinions and thoughts.

RazorStar...At first I was getting a much townier read on you than I was on koch. After this hammer...It just doesn't seem like a noob move. It seems more like scum eager to get the day over with.

FoS RazorStar

(as if it wasn't obvious enough)
I'm not willing to vote so early in mylo though.

Oh yeah, and try not to appeal to emotions (or fear, as I learned in my first game. Right gandalf? ).

[theperson]

DavidParker, I'm pretty sure the person you're looking for is framm18.

Framm18 is town (gut feeling)

@ST: Framm 18 is town because that's the overwhelming feeling I get from him. If he was scum, I would be ridiculously surprised.

Yeah, it's mostly gut.

Just the fact that he didn't have any posts to back it up but he got an "overwhelming feeling" makes me think that this is so. He knew someone was town for sure. His town reads were: framm, ST (if claim is believed), himself, me, and DP. It's probably not DP (because I doubt mafia would NK him N1), and probably not me (he was just leaning town on me). It's probably not ST because he said it was 50/50, and himself...That's self explanatory. Of course it could be gandalf, and then Friend didn't want to put him on town because he didn't want to look suspicious. Then again he was trying to get gandalf lynched...Which I why I think it's framm18.

DP, did you find the same thing from looking back?

[theperson]

Wow I just hit f5...Although my lost post was only the length of this post. (And very similiar)

RazorStar, DP and gandalf cannot both be scum because if DP is scum, ST must be. If you don't understand I'll explain it but it's been explained before. Also, you're not including me in your possible scumbuddy thing (or you're just thinking that I wouldn't be a "head of the operation"). Do you think that framm18 is town?

I think that one or both of gandalf and RazorStar is scum, and if neither then ST is the scumbuddy (because at this point I have DP and framm18 as almost confirmed town). We need to make sure we make the correct choice today, though.

[theperson]

It means:

It seems Friend couldn't protect himself last night...

What was your investigation result?

Or are you just scum?

[theperson]

I really hope ST isn't a VT...That would really make this game hard for us. But yeah DP, why did you possibly think ST would have a result? Or were you hoping he would fall into a trap?

And RazorStar, why did you ask me to explain? I had already typed it up, but accidentally refreshed the page and I didn't feel like typing it up again (I felt it was obvious). I never actually stated it but DP had mentioned it a few times. For some reason I thought I had mentioned it, but apparently I hadn't. I still think it was kind of unnecessary if you actually understood it to ask me.

So, 12 days to deadline. I'd like to use much more time than we have been using (as ST said, it's only 19 pages...Already day 3.), and not sure who's lynch I would prefer at this point. Gandalf would have been my first choice, but since RazorStar hammered and after today...Then there's ST. The thing is, I really can't decide who I think is most likely to be scum today (because it's important to lynch scum, not anti-town), so let's make use of our time and have activity!

[theperson]

The thing is, I wouldn't expect DavidParker to miss that case. Why?

(For those unaware I claimed cop as a VT in my last game with NS)

However, I think ST is experienced enough to know not to do that, especially in a newbie game.

[theperson]

And if the cop was lynched, both would be lynched. Yeah I agree that it's stupid, and I didn't at all think that you would be the kind of person that does that.

[theperson]

RazorStar, I've seen you do this before. You say something, then you vote someone that you weren't talking to or anything. Always provide an explanation, even if that explanation is simply "for reasons stated above". It makes it a lot easier to understand what's going on.

[theperson]

Yeah, gandalf did leave you in a bit of a hole.

Anyway, I await your opinions, and hope if you're town that you can convince us so. I was kind of skeptical about basing scum on the NS wagon, sure it's something but I think town used it way too much in their scum hunting efforts. But now with gandalf's lurking, along with other stuff he's done, I am also pretty convinced you're scum.

I'm also looking forward to your perspective on ST's cop claim. This game would be much easier if we could get that sorted out.

ST's cop claim was the obvious thing to do in his situation whether he was scum with 2 goons or cop. So everyone else, don't say he's scum because it was bad play as cop, but ST also can't say that he's cop because it was good play as cop/bad play as scum. Plus that's WIFOM.

[theperson]

First, I want to point out that ST was not yet claimed cop. In fact, he claimed cop two posts after.

Secondly, keep in mind that this is similiar to a catching up post, it was my first big post after being V/LA for a week.

Aspen, I even said the case is obvious. He had just gone out and stated the had bandwagoned and lurked, and didn't seem to find anything wrong with it. So even if he wasn't scum, he was antitown and isn't worth saving until lylo, especially with the pretty high chance that he was scum.

After 0x1de replaced, I left my vote on to maintain pressure. And then...it turned into a lynch.

Koch hadn't really done anything other than repeat stuff other people had said, post some fluff, and put gandalf on L-2 early on (which I don't take a real problem with) and I thought Aspen was a lot scummier than koch. I was just thinking it was more of a noobtell, but Aspen's lurking and bandwagoning, he knew it was antitown, he even said so, but he continued to do so.

Gandalf, besides what I said about him, I didn't find scummy. I agree that he didn't contribute much, but I played with him in my last game, he had 193 posts, almost all of which were fluff (Newbie 939 if you want to see it). He was scum, but I think it's just in his nature to post fluff. So, I overall didn't think he was very scummy.

Recently he was lurking a lot, maybe because attention was shifting to him. I think I don't have as much on him as other players, especially with the NS wagon thing. Can someone please explain why we've been focusing on the NS wagon so much, and why scum must be on it?

Aranneas, hopefully you'll help us get this game moving, because deadline is in one week. Also, can you explain why you believe ST's claim? I don't see how DavidParker inclines you to believe the claim.

[theperson]

Vote: Aranneas

[theperson]

Yay! My first win.

Anyway, gg guys. I was getting nervous when I saw aranneas start to accuse me.

Also, what you guys forgot: I wasn't there at the time of the NS lynch. I couldn't have been on the bandwagon. I was subtly trying to remind people that ST could be scum, because if people decided ST was cop and that aranneas was town, we lose.

I feel really stupid for not picking up on the doctell till DP started wondering about the D1 protection. I just got lucky.

Also, I thought you guys would find it suspicious that I "found" Framm's confirmed towniness about 25 minutes after DP posed the question. I noticed his post about 5 mins after, then quoted posts and had it.

I was sure RazorStar would be lynched D3...

EBWOP (preview): I'm pretty sure you don't get roles as cop. Just pro-town or anti-town.

Am I allowed to post the QT or does the mod have to?

So yeah, Framm was attempted NK N1. Then we knew he wasn't doc so we didn't try again N2.

Also Aranneas, sorry for making you read through a whole thread just to be killed in a day...

[theperson]

EBWOP: Only that line is supposed to be EBWOP. I just misplaced it.

[theperson]

Friend, you played a great game. I guess you could have not defended Framm as much (though that's not why I NKed you, I just got lucky), although it did end up benefiting town (even though I was the one that pointed it out). You should check zorblag's notes when he posts them because the mods watch the game from an unbiased perspective (I think?), and are typically experienced players.

I also thought they were going to lynch RazorStar, and so did RazorStar.

I think I'm allowed to post the quicktopic, so here it is: http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/sCwvUbiKutrUs

It's not that much of a fail, NS, because I was gone almost all of day 1.

[theperson]

Yeah, that V/LA did help a lot.

NS, I see what you're saying now that Zorblag said it. I didn't realize that both of the people you targeted were power roles...It did help them survive N1 though.

About the quicktopic: OK. I doubt RazorStar will mind.

[theperson]

Yeah, I was preparing to try to lynch gandalf D4 when D3 started.

[theperson]

Thanks RazorStar, and good job avoiding a day 3 lynch, though I'm still not sure how you did it.

And thanks a lot Zorblag for modding this game, it was a lot of fun! It was my first time as mafia. It was a great experience for me.

[theperson]

Thanks ST. I played a lot scummier as town in my first game than I did in this game.

I probably would have been a bit more believing of your claim if I was town. I just kept trying to get people to remember that you weren't confirmed cop, as subtly as possible.

I look forward to playing with everyone in the future. This sure was a fun one.