Newbie 1002: Nowherevilletownplace (D3)

[el simo]

To the best of my knowledge, and please correct me if i am wrong, a bah post is when you have just been killed, and you still get to post something like.. disappointment, however without giving away any information relevant to the game. Such as.. "Bah.. Go town!"

This is correct. Also normally conversation starts once the majority of players have confirmed.

/confirm

[el simo]

ni

...

What are you gonna do, bleed on me?

[el simo]

I'll have your head for that!

[el simo]

Votis el simo because his nickname don't start with a capital letter, like a normal nickname should.

El Simo just doesn't look the same.

[el simo]

1) I've been on this site since 2006, I've played well over 30 games and I've played every normal role.
2) No, for instance, most doctors tend to be quiet to try and avoid being night killed, or lynched even. It could also just be a matter of disinterest.
3) SC2 But seriously, my work contracted ended last Sunday so I'm now unemployed, my uni course starts in February (I'll be doing a bachelor of education) and I've spent all my money on a holiday to South Africa that I'm eagerly awaiting so I don't have much to spend on nights out with the boys or anything like that. Siiigh..
4) Meat, eggs and potatoes.

[el simo]

The mafia are scum. So scum hunting is hunting mafia and a scum tell is something that 'reveals' who mafia is.

[el simo]

el simo, are you familiar with teamliquid.net?

Starcraft clan?

[el simo]

Sorry, I was using quick reply.

Alternatively you can just type:

Code: Select all

[b]text goes here[/b]

[el simo]

Zenken, what do you mean to ask people what they do in town? And if it means what I think it means - and that is mass claiming - then it's not really a good idea. Especially since it would get town nowhere, since it's an open setup and the scum can easily claim town, and it would provide very harmful information to scum. But if this isn't what you had in mind... what did you mean?

I actually wouldn't mind a sorted roleclaim
There would definitely be too many townie claims, and we could get a higher % of lynching scum

I don't see how your theory works. Everyone will claim townie regardless of their real role and nothing will have changed.

As for the percentage game... I don't like talking chance and percentage in mafia. It doesn't take into account actuality, it just assumes everything is even when in reality it is not. If you are playing incredibly scummy there is not a 1 in 9 chance of me being lynched and there is definitely a higher chance of you being lynched.

Maddie, why so cautious to put me at L-2?

[el simo]

Take easy on him, he's a newbie. But i agree he won't do any good as game progress, so i'm cool with lynching him.

So then why have newbie games if we are just going to lynch noobs for being noobs?

What is more concerning is that you don't even care if he is town or not, you just want him lynched.

Unvote
Vote: Kanashimi

[el simo]

Ohh, so what do you rather, have a good player on a lylo, or a newbie player?

I'd rather lynch scum and avoid a lynch or lose all together.

[el simo]

RL on d1 is not necessarily for getting scum, as you almost never will be lucky enough to get scum d1.

So nevermind luck and lynch who ever is the most scummiest. I'd rather lynch a scummy townie and be stuck with a newb townie in the end game. Other wise we'd lynched the scummy townie in the end game and lose wouldn't we?

Nvm experience, find scum. Anything else is incredibly poor town play.

Well, I caused quite a stir with a simple question didn't I? MY Vote remains of El Simo, he's reacted the most other then Maddie.

And because I didn't get it right last time

Vote: el simo

Elaborate please.

[el simo]

"My Vote remains of El Simo, he's reacted the most"

Elaborated

I asked for an elaboration, not a repetition.

[el simo]

You still aren't explaining anything.

[el simo]

@ el simo - Your vote on Kanashimi sounds a lot like a policy thing. You comment on the fact that Kanashimi seems to not even care if Fucolow is town or not, but on the other hand your vote for him ignores it as well, your grounds being that he prefers an experienced player over a newbie and disregarding the bigger issue (which you also end up ignoring). A bit of a circular reasoning here, and an inconsistency on your part, don't you think?

I don't think so. Wanting to vote out a newbie for being a newb is anti town and scummy. I don't believe that a townsman would want to do this so to me it looks like scum trying to get an easy lynch. See my last newbie game as a perfect example. They entire town decided that they'd bandwagon and almost lynch a newbie player while I wasn't available to post. I made it back just in time to save his ass and got into a lot of arguments with the town about it. We won the game and it was revealed that he was town and that both scum were pushing his wagon because he was an easy mislynch, that is until I popped in to say hi.

As for the L-2, you still didn't really answer my question. Unless your answer was meant to imply that you don't like the RVS and that is why you retracted your vote.

[el simo]

I made it back just in time to save his ass

How very Rambo-esque of you.

On a serious note, I think you're maybe trying to come across as 'the town's saviour' to make the newbs think twice about voting you. (I'm aware I'm probably reading too much into the psychology of things, but its just a thought).

I thought so myself.

But about that serious note, it was just a very good game for me, I'm rather proud of it and the meta fits what we have here. Kanashimi's policy vote is scummy.

At the same time, regarding Kanashimi's vote, I can understand his tendency of valuing an experienced player more. There is an argument of authority going on here, however much we may try to avoid it and be completely objective. I'm just surprised that would surprise you, el simo.

It doesn't surprise, I've seen it tried many times before, normally by scum. Thus my vote is on him.

There is some good discussion going on. I agree with most of what el simo is saying, but his points aren't always the easiest concepts to understand. On the first day it's near impossible to lynch scum, due to the large majority of town, and the lack of evidence. There is a lot we can learn after a night phase, which really helps players to build a solid case.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

---

I took the liberty to meta Furcolow so I could get an accurate read on him. It seems he is a pretty notorious noob, despite his game experience (which really isn't all that much). I also took the liberty to read his games in isolation. Although he has had some pretty seriously poor accusations ("you''re scum for asking about poker") I think this is the most elaborated I've seen him go to get a case against someone. Right now I find you very suspicious, not because you're a noob and your case is totally bogus, but because the meta I've got on you indicates you as one smelly scum.

I'm not voting yet, it is still early in the game and I don't want a lynch advocated until we have more information to go off.

---

I would make a pretty horrible MAfia, exposing myself on the first day wouldn't I? Ha;f of this discussion was about the lack of MAfia lynching on the first day, I may be a noob, but I think it's obvious, making me a Mafia would be in poor tastes, I'm too inexperienced to be of any use to the mob. Unless I would just be a pity kill for thw townies to make them feel better, I honestly placed el simo as a mafia, being as high and mighty as he was, trying to cast himself in light on the first day in order to hide his actions during night. Placing me as a Mafia isn't exactly, a good idea, I'm an asshole, not a Mafia.

This perhaps the first time you've explained your vote with any real reason.

Essentially you are voting me for trying to appear too townie, correct?

[el simo]

Ok so Furcolow is at L-1, NOBODY HAMMER. It is far too early in the day to hammer and he hasn't had a chance to defend himself either.

Long days are good for town, short days are good for scum.

[el simo]

@el simo:

That what he was saying all the time basically. And i agree with him in a point, but not enough to actually thinking in lynch you, lol.

I don't see the link between reacted the most and being too townie.

If you really think I am too townie, I'd suggest you meta me. I've made it to the end game in almost all my games, only been lynched twice (never on this account) and been night killed more often than not, because I look 'too townie.'

---

Furcolow, perhaps your only valid point is the OMGUS, and even that is arguable. From what I've gathered from your other games, you haven't really learned much from your past experiences. If you truly are town, I'd suggest you drop your vote, re-evaluate your situation and discuss the ideas that the rest of the town have brought up and try to look for more plausible scum tells.

[el simo]

zenken is a plausible lynch
he is scummy as fuck this game
don't give me "defend yourself" or meta bullshit
just listen to me and do what im telling you to do

Why do you even bother playing the game if you aren't going to try improve?

[el simo]

Furcolow, we are all incredibly suspicious of you. My meta on you suggests that you are scum and you are pushing a lynch from the poorest case I've seen in my entire 4 year history on the site. All you do is simply OMGUS accuse who ever disagrees with you too. You're also needless threatening the town with things that will have no affect at all. Many times before have I relentless argued against the lynch of the noobier players because most people mistake their noobiness for scuminess. There is, however, no mistaking yours. Realize two players want to vote you right now and that you are at L-2. Threatening us with nonsensicle accusations isn't going to help your case and isn't going to help the town.

I'll say it again, if you truly are a townie, stop this nonsense and start playing sensibly. You are about to be lynched, you should be trying to save yourself and help the town, stop this martyrdom nonsense.

---

That was typed before post #123 and on, now I'll respond to the rest of the posts that popped up while I was typing.

---

I'm pretty sure roles are distributed randomly

This is the truth.

See, before I voted for him, I was was voting for el simo because he was coming off as 'too townie', when I learned just a little while ago, being a good townie is trying to be out of the way.

Who on Earth told you that rubbish? A good townsman is a townie who is actively involved, adds to the discussion and scum hunts. Trying to stay out of the way gets you lynched, it is called actively lurking and is a commonly used scum tactic. I think you should read through the wiki, it will help you a lot with this sort of thing.

I'm a detective.

No such role.

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Roles

The setup is randomly chosen from the following setups:

* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
* 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
* 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

If he was the cop he'd have said cop because his role pm would have said sane cop. The fact that he has said detective shows us two things, the first is that he didn't read the rules or the setup information, the second is that he is lying.

Normally I'm one to advocate a long day, but I believe we just found scum and continuing this day might just confuse us and push our lynch as well.

I'm happy with a

vote: Furcolow.

Mod: we haven't had a vote count in a while.

---

Geez more posts while I made mine.

Bazz you are 100% correct. But there is also the other possibility, say Fur is scum but we choose not to lynch him yet anyway. We continue the day we talk more some other players make a few mistakes we start accusing other people and we get more information, some of it will be good but most of it will be townie vs townie. I believe we have scum now, his claim proves that. I don't see the point in delaying this lynch.

Also yes, you read their other games where you know what role they are and compare their play styles. He has never been this aggressive in his 'scum hunting' in his other games (although they were just as bad). To me this makes it look like he is trying to push a lynch that he knows is bogus because he is scum, so he reaches even more and pushes it even harder.

---

OMG ANOTHER POST SLOW DOWN GUYS I CAN'T KEEP UP. FFS. :'(

Bazz you just hit the nail on the head.

[el simo]

Also, it is incredibly easy for scum to claim cop, assuming they aren't counter claimed. I did this myself as scum and used it to win the game. Because you are scum you know who is town, you might not know if there are power roles but there is a pretty good chance that if you say someone is vanilla than they are vanilla.

This is besides the point because he claimed detective, but still, something to keep in mind.

Mod: thanks!

[el simo]

You missed Kanashimi in that vote count.

[el simo]

You missed Kanashimi in that vote count.

He unvoted in order for Furcolow to defend himself.

Yup and he missed him.

[el simo]

Why would you claim cop as scum? It makes little sense.

A cop claim is very easy to produce and very easy to cover. "A didn't get an investigation last night I was role blocked," or "Maddie is a townsman." I've claimed cop as scum before and we won the game because of it.

Maddie you state his claim makes no sense, but he is trying to lynch players because of poor grammar. He has consistently made no sense this in entire thread, why does his bogus cop claim any different?

Furcolow, you are

not

a confirmed cop. The only way to confirm a players role is to kill them to investigate them. Your claim has been dubious and makes about as much sense as your case on Zenken.

Zenken at first I didn't think he was scum, I even argued against his lynch because Kanashimi seems to only care that he is a distraction. But now I have reason to believe that he is scum. I've spent a lot of time arguing the difference between noobiness and scuminess, see my last game as an example, and coupled with his meta I feel that this is a case of noob meets scum. Normally with noob issues like this you can see where their intentions are and people mistake their lack of knowledge for scummy motives. I struggle to see how Fur is trying to help the town.

If he is cop, three cases are likely, he is going to be roleblocked, he is going to be night killed (scum would be mad to keep him alive with our being able to roleblock him) or he is going to be saved by the doc. Personally I feel there are better options for the doc to save, but w/e.

I'm incredibly against the idea of a policy lynch, but I do believe we have found our scum, either that or an unbelievably inept townsman. He is not the cop.

[el simo]

You're over thinking, Kana.

[el simo]

unvote

more later

[el simo]

If he was scum, and I was the cop (which I am), he would stop at nothing for me to die.

Or they would just night kill you. If there is a doctor, they'd have a roleblock, so then they'd just role block you and you become a useless townie. Keeping someone as unpredictable as you on would be in scums benefit really.

The reason for my unvote: well I've decided we might as well give him a chance to prove his claim before we string him up. Who knows he might be cop (albeit a really bad one) and he might just get a guilty. All my better wisdom and knowledge tells me to hang him right now, but but to be honest he is so sporadic I'm starting to doubt myself.

[el simo]

Yes that was interesting, your claims were identical.

[el simo]

Also, i may want to add i'm watching a few specific people's action. I pretty much noticed 2 soft-claims, but they were very unclear so i'll keep my belief that Furcolow is really the cop.

Just don't over analyse things.

[el simo]

FrozenAeon, you probably don't understand because you didn't read through my unvote post properly. Kanashimi nailed it - the part about waiting at least.

[el simo]

So I've been thinking to myself for the past little while now, and, just something stuck out to me. When Furcolow accused me of being scum, he pinned Kanashimi as my partner. This was when Kanashimi Voted Furcolow. A Common scum trait is to point the finger at each other. Only I think Furcolow did this. This all speculation, which I want to put it out there, who else feels Kanashimi and Furcolow have been unusually scummy? I know I have. But I'm not confident enough to vote either player, I just wanted put that theory up and out there. I should probably get some references to this. This theory might get developed more, I just wanted something else for discussion, we've seemed to slow down.

What you a referring to is called 'bussing,' that is, throwing your partner under the bus, it's a very common and effect tactic used by scum. And to be quite honest, if Fur is scum it is likely that he is being bussed by his partner. As scum, you know who's mafia and who's town. If your partner is performing badly it is very easy to take anything he does, make it look scummy and then have the entire town declare you townie when you successfully advocate a lynch of scum.

How ever there is no way of proving your point, the only scummy thing Kanashimi has done is advocate a policy lynch on someone he believes is the cop. Albeit scummy, this isn't enough to tie him to Fur, or anyone for that matter. The reason I haven't placed my vote on him is because I understand why he wants to do it. I disagree, but I understand.

And in an odd turn of events, I agree with Furcolow!

vote: lobstermania

It's as good a start as anything else and quite true really. Also I'd rather have an active noob in the end game then someone who doesn't post at all. My last game I had to choose between two players who were both very inactive, sure sucked.

[el simo]

Also welcome, MightDarkZero. I won't hold cloudocean against you.

[el simo]

So now we have people voting lobstermania because he hasn't posted in a while? I thought that was what prods were for.

Lurking is a commonly used scum tactic, they sit at the back and either don't post at all or just post very little, normally with little content or just repeating what others say (what I call active lurking). It lets the town talk amongst themselves and get distracted. Our votes put pressure on them to be more active.

However, if they are replaced, the tell is likely to be a null tell.

[el simo]

Yeah but you can't know that. If someone doesn't respond to your votes and is still replaced out you can't say they were purposely lurking.

[el simo]

He looks like he is going to be replaced so it's probably time we look elsewhere.

[el simo]

I'll get a reread in later tonight before I go to bed, see what I can find.

[el simo]

Reading everyone in isolation to get an idea of where to go from here. Will post my thoughts.

FrozenAeon
Pushes for Furcolow from quite early, hasn't really given up despite his claim. Doesn't post all that often so there is not much else to read on him. Neutral.

Furcolow
Playing much more aggressively than he has in his other games, using probably much worse logic too. Had a really bad claim and has been incredibly bigoted, how ever his play has been improving as of lately. I really want to lynch him (because I do think he is scummy) but I'd much rather give him time to prove his claim.

Kanashimi
Pushes for a policy lynch on Furcolow from very early in the game. Dislike this a lot, definitely anti town. Makes an interesting point in post 17. "He is useless to town as.. he will get nightkilled/roleblocked." Why is this a reason to lynch him? Wouldn't you rather take your chances at lynching someone else who could be scum and let the mafia waste a night kill? You say yourself you don't think he is scum, but you'd still rather lynch him despite knowing that he is likely to get night killed. This to me is very scummy logic, scum would want Furcolow lynched to save them a night kill. It also eliminates the chances of him being saved by the doc, another reason why scum would want him lynched. How ever he soon drops the idea of lynch Furcolow today, which contradicts his previous scummy logic. If Furcolow isn't killed tonight and he doesn't get an investigation, would you push for his lynch tomorrow?

lobstermania
Hasn't really done much. Claims to have been travelling a lot but I don't care much for this reasoning because he says he will post later and he doesn't. Isn't responding to our votes - needs to be replaced.

Maddie
Plays over cautiously at start - scared having me at L-2 when L-2 isn't all that big of a deal. Over cautious play is typical of noob scum. Is also pretty defensive over Furcolow, which would not fair well for her if Furcolow ends up flipping scum some how. Other than these she hasn't done anything that screams scummy. Neutral.

Bazz
Has played pretty sensibly, also provoked a lot of good discussion. Town read.

Zenken
Has showed really poor reasoning. I would like to repeat this to you because I think you may have missed it, but good townsman

do not

sit back and try to stay out of the way. Doing that

is

scummy and is most definitely anti productive. Who ever told you this should be shot. Interesting to note: he takes his vote off me because he is pressured to do so by the town. This is waay to cautious, I've never seen a townie remove his vote on someone after arguing with them over numerous posts because the town told him to. Definitely seems like scum trying not to cause a ruckus. WIFOM defence too. Odd vote on Maddie, soon unvoted. Does some thinking about a possible distancing situation between Kanashimi and Furcolow but doesn't really stand seeing as everyone has been barking at Furcolow today. Scummy read.

After my reread, here are my thoughts.

I still really want to lynch Furcolow. He claimed a role that doesn't exist, he's never been the cop before so it's I think this is a likely scum mistake. He made the same claim in a previous game where he was scum and if there is anything I've noticed over my time on Earth it's that people are creatures of habbit. I wouldn't be surprised if he does this as scum many more times in the future. He has also just been terribly anti town the entire day and hasn't been any help at all. Despite this, he hasn't been counter claimed and deserves a chance to prove his claim. So as much as I don't want to I'm going to hold off voting him.

Kanashimi would be my next option because a policy lynch, specially in the situation we are in, can only be guided by scummy motives. The only thing stopping me from advocating the noose around his neck is that he has decided to give Furcolow a chance to prove his claim.

This brings me to Zenken. He hasn't had a very good townie game so far. He's made bad cases, suggested a role claim, defended himself (from a poor case I might add) using WIFOM and follows the townie crowd. At this point in time, I think he would be our best lynch, at least for now.

Vote: Zenken.

[el simo]

Maddie, certain events during the night will not only prove his claim but also reveal the possibility of other roles. You have touched on all these. I don't believe that if we have a role blocker, they will just role block him and let him live. Scum want to keep town on who they think they can control or who they think will not accuse them. Furcolow is uncontrollable and is very likely to detriment scum. Furcolow has shown that he is suspicious of everything and if we get a wagon going on scum he probably will lynch him, where as, say if Bazz was scum there was a wagon on him, I'd be less willing to lynch him because I believe he is town (just an example).

Bazz, we don't need to ask more questions, we need to ask the right questions. Sure they will develop discussion but most of it will be colloquial and not too related. For instance, in my lost post, I made a lot of statements and accusations. I asked one question and the only reason I asked that question was not to get more discussion, it was to help me further my read on Kana. My vote depends on how well his answer is to my liking. So no, I don't think we need more questions. I think we need more investigations and more accusations. Accusing people always stirs up more talk anyway.

Maddie, don't use my role as IC to read into my play. My role as IC is help you, regardless of my role in the game. If I was scum I'd still do my best as an IC. If you want an accurate read on me, ignore the comments I make like this, where I am 'instructing' you so to speak, and look at my arguments, look at my cases, look at my voting habits, look for things that scum would do. Nevermind my IC status.

As for calling my 'authority.' I'm not using my experience to guile you, I'm using meta's to show you what I'm saying is the truth. Anybody can do this.

And Bazz, Furcolow just made me realise something I missed in my reread. To quote Zenken, post 17 in isolation:

I do not agree he is scum, but I'm 100% sure he's our now claimed Village Idiot
He has no reason to bluff at this point, not after all of this.
I'm pretty much claiming a Policy lynch, He's not helping the town, because he can't be considered a 'sane cop'. A Cop

I agree with him, he has given us the same reasons as Kana and it would be contrary of me if I find Kana suspicious for it and not Zenken. This only adds to my vote on him.

[el simo]

So stop pointing the finger my way for that sack-o-sardines.

So sorry, just reread your post and saw Maddies reply. You are correct. How ever this is a lot more to it than that so it doesn't really help you much anyway.

[el simo]

@el simo: Yes. As you said yourself it's easy to fake a roleblocked claim. the only way to prove it would be basically by lynching him. And yes, i know you'll think this is scummy, but it's my sincere opnion and i wouldn't be satisfied if i hid it. And even if i think he's cop there is only two thing cops are worth for:

Investigation - Getting reports.
The problem is that we have a hooker if he lives, therefore he won't provide any report.

Leading - As a clear he should naturally lead.
That was the only reason i was thinking in answering no to you, because i tought he could change and be a good leader, but after his last votes on Zenken i completely lost my faith on him.

Therefore he won't do any good for village, so i don't know why we should keep him as he's as unclear as any of us.

Yes, but he is not only a cop, but a townsman. So he is just as useful as any one of us. If you want to bring in his ability, there are numerous players that I could name in this game right now that we should policy lynch then for being utterly useless, but we're not going to, because we need them. If he is a cop let scum deal with him and let us lynch someone who actually could be scum.

[el simo]

But it's not about his abillity to play the game. If that were true I'd be the first to go. This is about the fact that he's suspected everyone in the game so far and even if he is town, listening to him will get us all killed.

Since when do we listen to anyone?

[el simo]

Since when do we listen to anyone?

Anyone can influence anyone's suggestion, how else do you think Advertisement's work?

If the Mafia were smart, tonight they wouldn't kill Furcolow, he's too obvious, and just causes problems. Which is bad for town. He doesn't inspire anything in anyone playing here. He isn't a leader. If the Mafia were smart, they'd be targeting el simo and Bazz, plain and simple. The Voice of common reason are always the first to go.

This is why I choose Furcolow as our Lynch, He causes waaay to much disharmony to be of real use later on in the game, even -if- he is a power role.

Yes but we are not making advertisements we are playing a game and in this game everyone has already concluded that Fur is useless and to be ignored. We gain nothing from lynching him other than losing a potential cop. Keeping the cop in the game will be a mistake on scums behalf because the roleblocker isn't always going to be present, as soon as he is gone, if he even exists, he is going to be an immediate danger.

As for killing him off, this is just a waste at this point. We gain nothing from lynching him. The only reason he is disturbing the town is because every post he makes you and every other dick tom and harry decided to break his post down word by word and harass him. Nobody is taking his suggestions seriously and if you just ignore his OMGUS and move on we can hunt real scum instead of throwing away this lynch.

And Zenken if the mafia are smart they will kill Fur off tonight, my and Bazz can't win the game ourselves, we are no bigger threat than you or Maddie. But all of this is a waste of time because you are purposely ignoring the fact that if they don't have a roleblocker than they have to kill him off.

By pushing his lynch you are screwing the town over in numerous ways, for starters you are purposely lynching someone who you believe to be town, why any townie would see reason to do that I don't know. Secondly you are wasting a lynch on someone when you could be actually scum hunting and using that lynch on someone who could actually be scum and lastly you are preventing us from gathering more information about the set up. This

is

vital information that we won't get if we just lynch him now, even if he is the cop.

I would be very surprised if scum weren't on the Furcolow wagon, not only is he an easy mislynch but he is a claimed cop and if we lynch him for them we are saving them a night kill. We have more than a 50% chance that he will be shot tonight and wasting a lynch on him is just anti-town.

[el simo]

I don't see a question there but I'll try respond as best I can, tell me if I miss the mark.

You are correct, Furcolow is a very hard player to read, his actions have been scummy and we can't just ignore him until end game. How ever he has been consistently scummy and as much as I'd like to lynch him, this reads to me more as more of a play style then of a tell. And yes there is no way of telling if he really is the cop, not yet at least. I'm hoping certain events will be forced to take place tonight do to with our set up, and if this does then all will be revealed in the morning. It's a gamble but we have nothing to lose from it and even in the worse case scenario we have still gained information. Lynching him day 1 is premature.

I'm not saying that he is a townie, or the cop or even scum, because at this point it is too hard to say. He's claimed cop and he deserves a chance to prove his claim. I'm not asking to keep him in the game and not lynch at all, but rather just to postpone it until we have more information.

[el simo]

Yes that's probably because I realized lynching a claimed cop who wasn't counter claimed is not really productive for the town.

[el simo]

Also not sure what you mean about 'the setup thing.'

And while you're at it, care to explain why calling for his lynch and then backing off is indicative of scum? The logic works backwards to what I normally use in this sort of situation. I don't really understand it.

Oh and I never blamed it on his playstyle, I just said it was consistent with it. I did say I still found him scummy and that I still want to lynch him, just not until he's been given a chance to prove his claim.

[el simo]

And Zenken > random lynch.

[el simo]

Sorry all. I got side-tracked by my real life and figured I had been replaced here. As long as I'm still included, give me an hour and I'll re-read the thread.

Will be glad to hear from some more players.

[el simo]

I sure hope you have a reason for those pretty bold accusations.

[el simo]

Why, are you going to -kill- him in his sleep? x3

Because out of no where I've just been accused of being scum - thrice.

[el simo]

Out of no where?

If I had to say now, I'd be happy with a Kanashimi, Furcolow or el simo lynch. (terms and conditions apply, subject to change).

el simo could very well be scum (I think he probably is)

but when I can safely say Maddie is townie, or el simo is scum

And I seem to recall another one but I can't find it anywhere. Anyway, you can see how I came to the conclusion "out of nowhere," as no one has yet provided a reason as to why I'm so scummy.

[el simo]

Bazz, I think your entire read missed the mark and I think this was brought right at the beginning of the post when you decided to read me differently because I'm the IC. Sure I'm the IC but the reason I'm playing newbie games is to try and improve myself as well. Moving on.

Lack of scum hunting - I've done more than anybody else, just because I haven't lived up to you standards as an IC doesn't make me scum. This point is biased.

The contradiction - if you stop and think about your decision long enough you're always bound to hesitate. Fortunately Furcolow wasn't lynched when I pushed it and I changed my mind. Note that you claim I changed my mind when I saw that he wasn't going to be lynched, but I disagree with this. My unvote was at the height of his suspicion and had I wanted him lynched I have no doubt in my mind that I could have got that. But enough of that, lets get to the reasoning of my unvote: I absolutely believe every word I said early about Furcolow being scum, but he has claimed the cop and lynching him day 1 is premature. There is no harm in keeping him around longer, killing him today is robbing us of opportunity to find out more about our set up. If I pushed his lynch today I would be setting a poor example as an IC. I hate to say it but Furcolow is right, you just don't lynch an uncountered claimed cop, not on day one.

Zenken - firstly, that is a risk we have to take in this game. Do you realize how quickly I'm going to be strung up if Furcolow does flip scum? Secondly, you're getting into WIFOM, don't do this. I say this every game to every player I see deal with WIFOM. - WIFOM is scummy, don't do it ever, it is poor for town in every possible situation, you can only deal with WIFOM when you have a great deal of information about scum, until then, don't do it. It is the most commonly used scum tactic and it will distract the town and send us on wild goose chase. I will not hesistate to lynch anyone who start WIFOM discussions and arguments. - Lastly, you read him as a newb, but newbs can be scum too. Zenken blatantly pushed a policy lynch. If you remember correctly I was just about ready to string up Kanashimi for this, but Kanashimi saved himself by contradicting his push and and deciding not to lynch Furcolow. Zenken didn't, and he still hasn't. Voting someone you know is town is scummy. There is nothing else to it. Sure he has changed his mind about that now and calls Furcolow scum, but he didn't do that until I attacked him about the policy lynch - which raises a few red flags in itself. As for pushing his lynch, yes I am. I don't see any better targets today, so naturally I'd want his lynch.

#284 and 285 are fairly defensive, I don't take kindly to being called scum for bogus reasons.
I believe I was the first to start pushing anything in the first few pages, with my questionings into Maddie. It didn't lead where I had intended it to because she rather avoided the answer I was looking for quite while, but the intent is there.

I had thought of some other stuff while writing this but it seems I've forgotten them, so that's all for now, I guess.

[el simo]

Yes I said to Kana, specifically about the fact that he was reading into me being the cop. Nobody else seemed to realize what he was insinuating and you definitely didn't if you think I was talking about the entire game.

And what you just said contradicts yourself, Zenken.

I have nothing to Add to Furcolow's case, he's dug himself a pretty large hole
I do not agree he is scum, but I'm 100% sure he's our now claimed Village Idiot
He has no reason to bluff at this point, not after all of this.
I'm pretty much claiming a Policy lynch, He's not helping the town, because he can't be considered a 'sane cop'. A Cop

[el simo]

A newbie does not push a policy lynch, that is just hypocritical. The wagon against Zenken consisted of two votes, mine and Furcolows, that is hardly a wagon.

As for, "el simo is one of the more experiences players here so I... etc." This is nonsense. You don't read players based on your expectations of them.

Bazz you give a really poor example to defend your statement. Furcolow is probably one of the "newbiest" players in this game yet we were all ready to string him up at one point despite his claim. Why do you dismiss Zenkens policy lynch as newbie town but Furcolow as scum and disregard the fact that he is also a newb all together. Your statement makes no sense so I stand by my view. You can't read players based on set individual standards for each of then. If something is scummy it is scummy. A policy lynch is scummy, Zenken should be strung up. Deadline is running short and we have no other contenders for the lynch (well we have me now, apparently) and if we don't get somebody we are going to putting the numbers in scums favour.

[el simo]

regardless of experience

el simo is one of the more experienced players here so I wouldn't put it past someone like that

---

Both your arguments (MDZ and Bazz) rely on logical fallacies, it's called an appeal to authority. In this specific situation you are using it backwards but it is still the same thing. See the wiki.

While you're on the wiki, check this.

[el simo]

No it didn't rely on it at all. That is my point. It was an offhand comment that had no relevance that you used to try make a poor case sound better.

[el simo]

I'd much rather lynch someone who I think is scum.

[el simo]

Furcolow, why don't you note that I've got my vote on Zenken and have been advocating his lynch for the last couple of pages while bloody well everyone else has been standing around twiddling there thumbs.

How ever, good point about Frozen. His response was rather quick to that vote, despite being generally inactive the entire game.

[el simo]

We're not randomly lynching someone Furcolow, we are lynching who we think is scummiest.

[el simo]

We don't need to do RVS we have plenty of information.

[el simo]

Yes they can. The set up and player roles are randomly generated.

[el simo]

I'm sort of fed up with this game so I'm dropping the polite IC tone and just playing my usual aggressive Rambo game. You don't seem to get my point when I try teach it across, so instead I'll just jam it down your throats until you agree or you lynch me.

You claim, "putting pressure on lynch TARGETS and backing off when THEY didn't appear as likely."

I did this once and not for the reasons you claim either. Using those plurals IS scummy. You are implying that I am more guilty of what you claim then I am. You are trying to make it seem as if there is more to your case then there really is. A townie wouldn't exaggerate their own case to make us believe it. What you are doing makes no sense as a pro town player. This goes for MDZ as well, appealing to my authority to try add more to his case then is really there. See my comment on the last page about it for a reference.

The reason I focused so much on the experience part of it is because you are a) wrong and b) being inconsistent with your own logic.

You want to read us differenct based on our experience - our ability, our skill level, how good we are at this game. Furcolow is probably the worst player in this game right now, yet you choose to read him differently from Zenken. You claim that Zenken is a noob and that is why he made scummy posts, but you say nothing about Furcolow and you in fact call him scummy numerous times. He tried to make a case based on someone's spelling and grammar. Why is this scummier than Zenkens policy lynch? Why is Zenkens policy lynch a noob townie but Furcolows spelling and grammar noob scum? Experience is what we call a null tell. It is not indicative of ones role. Noob scum and noob town will make the same mistake as an experienced town and an experienced scum will make the same mistake. You can't read people differently because of this. Reading someone based on their experience and then finding them scummy because of them is effectively the same thing as a policy lynch, just worded nicer.

Your case one me consisted of three things: I haven't done as much scum hunting as your ideal IC has (despite doing more than anybody else has in this game), backtracking on Furcolow, and pushing a lynch on someone who you think is a newb townie.

Given the reality of your "experience reads" the only thing you have on me out of those three is the backtracking, which is based entirely on when you think Furcolow was at the height of suspicion.

I don't mind people pushing my lynch, provided they have sound reasoning to do so. You how ever took something out of nothing and tried to make it appear more than it really is with all these plurals and what not. What ever happened to your read on Kanashimi?

[el simo]

I am the best player in the game. Who are you kidding?

[el simo]

@el simo - Wow, I'm starting to see why you've never been lynched.

I think we'd be going round in circles if I responded to every issue you've raised. At the moment You, Furcolow and myself are dominating the thread, and there are six other players who need to sort out their reads before the deadline. Just a few points though:

"putting pressure on lynch TARGETS and backing off when THEY didn't appear as likely." I was referring to Furcolow

and

Zenken (hence the pluralisation), but I admit the use of "they" is misleading. In hindsight you still maintain suspicion of Zenken so it should read:
"putting pressure on lynch targets and backing off when one didn't appear as likely"
apologies for this.

The issue becomes, is putting pressure on targets scummy?

The issue regarding experience has got out of hand I think. Whilst its clear you don't agree with it, I stand by what I said about every read being relative. I agree with you when you say, "Experience is what we call a null tell. It is not indicative of ones role", and I want to make it clear I am not voting you because of your experience. I merely acknowledge this as one of the many, many factors that must be considered before evaluating your posts.

I've stated many times that this is not a full-proof case against you. All I've done is re-read everyone's play, and voted for the player I find scummiest. Unfortunately this time it was you. I stand by my reasons and my logic. I never assumed you'd agree with my vote, but wasn't expecting quite such a defensive post.

Well I have to convince you you're wrong some how.

[el simo]

Easy. What are your thoughts on Zenken? What do you think of Bazz and MDZ's case on me? What do you think about the Furcolow wagon? This has been the longest 1st day I've had in a game for a long time. We have talked loads, you have talked none. There is almost an endlist list of things for you to discuss. Go.

[el simo]

I've finished a game in 15 pages. It's more than enough.

[el simo]

Zenken, I was considering registering as Ramboa originally. Decided to go with el simo instead.

[el simo]

Also the reason I went for the Rambo avatar is because when I first registered I played with a guy who has now retired from mafia - John Locke. He had a picture of the bald guy from Lost and when ever I read his posts I read it in his accent. I figured it would be funny if people read my posts as Rambo and thought I was always really angry.

[el simo]

Bazz your first two points are nonsense. Your last two points are the same as the third.

If you kill him today you are robbing us of vital information tonight. Want to lynch him, fine, lets do it tomorrow, I find him scummy as well, but lets not do it without letting him live through the night. The potential for lots of very important information is there and lynching him today is robbing us of that opportunity.

[el simo]

Thanks FrozenAeon, talking some sense. Now you just need to start doing it with out us pestering you to!

I'm not moving my vote from Zenken. I think he is our best option going into this deadline.

I hope you realize, that the person with the most votes at deadline will be lynched,

[el simo]

You know what.. Furcolow I think you are right. It's called active lurking and it's something scum do to keep town arguing between themselves.

unvote
vote: lobstermania

[el simo]

Sykedoc: Deadlines are for actions not for moderator posts. Do not post in thread during night stages unless you like being modkilled.

[el simo]

Bah!

[el simo]

Hate to post in the game like this... but, bump?

[el simo]

Oh wait what did we win?

[el simo]

Ah right didn't read that post lmao. I had DMZ and Bazz nailed as scum after the first few pages of day 2, guess I was half right.