Newbie 993 - Game Over!

[Chimp Pants]

Doing a read through. Will post content after.

[Chimp Pants]

First, Illume had voted for Mysterio, and I'll confirm that I agree with that vote. Some of these points may have already been discussed.

In Post 26 Myst pressure votes Hindu while suggesting Leech is distancing his scum-buddy. He confirms this idea in Post 30 ("I'm really leaning toward the idea that you and Hinduragi are simply attempting to distance yourselves early, so that the rest of us will find it hard to believe that you are scum buddies.") Note that the alleged buddying was committed by Leech, yet Myst follows the buddy accusation to the buddied Hindu. Myst either voted Hindu for pressure while simultaneously suggesting a more scummy lean for Leech or he voted Hindu for being allegedly buddied by Leech. Neither way makes sense.

Myst eventually seems to back of the scum buddy theory in Post 35...

Myst shifts the blame for his vote to Leech in Post 35 ("My leanings have nothing to do with him. Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi"). Notice that Myst's vote is based on Leech's post, not Hindu's actions.

Myst either threatens Myst or suggests blending into the whims of the town in Post 55 ("So, unless your goal here is to make yourself look suspicious (which, ironically, you now are), then I'm not sure why you have a problem with me moving on?"). Neither action is helpful to the town. Both using your vote to limit discussion about yourself and hiding in popular opinion serve scum goals.

My notes on Myst's Post 57 simply reads, "OMGUS threat??? Huh???" I'll quote the entire post this time:

Thoughts on Hinduragi's post later, but I just want to point out that Leech had managed to remove himself from my radar by answering my objections, only to give me new reason to cast my FoS at him. This type of schizophrenic play is something I have seen from scum before. I have to ask, why would you care if I stopped being suspicious of you? Unless your goal is to use my suspicion as some kind of shield against accusations of flying under the radar, or better yet using it as an opportunity to cast suspicion back on me and possibly getting a townie lynched. I must then ask, what possible town motive would cause you to overzealously bring suspicion back onto yourself?

Very questionable behavior by Leech. And I'm off to work. Will certainly be back on later tonight to fully digest and respond to Hinduragi's post.

The issue

isn't

the characterization of Leech's play as "schizophrenic" or whatever later term Myst decided to use. Myst is citing his own actions as reasons for Leech being scummy- more blame shifting. He doesn't cite specific actions of Leech. This read's more like Myst using the threat of a vote to stop lines of questioning. Additionally, the logic of Leech bringing suspicion on himself to "sheild against accusations of flying under the radar" seems quite strained. Myst also drifts into AtE by blaming Leech for "possibly getting a townie lynched."

Post 78 may be stepping into an irrelevant discussion between Myst and Leech that is marred by different opinions of the nuances of English. In general though, town shouldn't try to avoid mislynches. They should try to lynch scum. There's a difference.

Post 79 reads more like trying to win an argument than find scum. There's a difference. As long as I can get suggestions of a player's alignment, I don't care who's right or wrong. Granted, rightness and wrongness are factors in determining a player's alignment, but they're less important than whether or not a player is genuinely scum hunting. There is a difference.

[Chimp Pants]

Myst thinks I haven't connected the dots, so here goes...

Myst shifts blame/responsibility for his votes onto Leech in post 35 and 57. Shifting blame can be used by scum to distance from a mislynch. The statement, ""My leanings have nothing to do with him. Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi" shifts the focus onto Leech. A scum player, knowing everyone's alignment, often reveal this knowledge through tentativeness. Tentativeness can be exhibited in a number of ways, including shifting the blame onto other players.

Posts 26 and 30 also display another manifestation of this tentativeness. Myst votes Hindu for "pressure" while seemingly having a stronger scum read on Leech. Votes that don't align with stated opinions reveals tentativeness and lack of conviction.

Posts 55 and 57 use threats to try to limit discussion. Pro-town players should not fear wagons against themselves. This is how we catch scum. Scum try to latch onto wagons with well timed votes or comments. The pro-town response to a wagon is to work to figure out who is placing genuine votes and who isn't. Making OMGUS threats does not serve the town's goals. I'm not interested in coaching the scum, so I won't delve into the somewhat predictable way that scum work on band wagons. Even experienced players tend to fall into these traps.

Myst's post 57 uses strained logic (that Leech would try to make himself appear scummy in another's eyes to make himself appear pro-town), OMGUS threats, and misreps the issue with the "schizophrenic play" comments. By ignoring the actual issue (Myst shifting the blame onto Leech) and focusing on word choice, he minimizes his scummy actions.

Post 78 reveals, in my opinion at least, too much of a focus on avoiding mislynches. This is another manifestation of scummy tentativeness.

Post 79 shows Myst trying to win an argument, not hunt scum. Winning arguments is a way to look busy without actually figuring out alignment.

[Chimp Pants]

@Mod: I've replaced Illume, so that vote for Mysterio should be attributed to me to avoid confusion. Thanks.

[Chimp Pants]

@All: Sorry for the WOT.... Please try to read it and I'll try to be more concise in the future.

@Myst- I read every word of every post multiple times. No skimming here.

Your first point essentially accuses me of "tentativeness", related to me "shifting the blame". This is directly contradicted by my actions in the very same post you quoted, where I pressure Leech about his lack of vote on Hinduragi. The whole "shifting the blame" thing makes no sense, because at the time I was under no pressure. I had one RVS vote on me based on something Leech read in another game, so clearly there was nothing to "shift".

You placing responsibility for your vote onto Leech has nothing to do with any perceived pressure on you. There are two related points, neither of which have anything to do with the number of vote on you at posts 26 and 30.

1. You vote Hindu for "pressure" while simultaneously placing seemingly stronger suspicion on Leech for distancing. In other words, your strongest stated suspicions (that Leech is scum) don't align with your vote.
2. You place responsibility for your vote onto Leech. This is particularly odd since you seem to have him placed high on your scum list. This is the blame shifting I am pointing out. Scum are the only players who know alignments D1. Foreknowledge of impending mislynches can manifest in a number of different ways, including failure to stand behind votes.

Here's where you place responsibility for

your

vote onto Leech.

My leanings have nothing to do with him.

Your post was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi

, but my scum buddy leaning has to do with you pointing the FoS, but refraining from voting.

So voting for Hindu is because of Leech, not Hindu? How is Hindu scummy because Leech allegedly distanced himself from Hindu? You voting for Hindu at that point while having stronger suspicions of Leech doesn't make sense from a town perspective. As you said, "it's a bit suspicious itself to keep a vote on anyone other than the person you find suspicious."

Your first point refers to something I said in a later post, but then you go back to this earlier post without acknowledging my pressure on Leech for not voting Hinduragi. Your logic here essentially goes A --> B --> A, forgetting all about C. How can I be tentative for not voting my suspicion, while at the same time pressuring someone else for not voting their suspicion? The answer: Clearly, my biggest suspicion at the time was on Hinduragi. Hence my vote, and also why I eventually switched it to Leech when he became more suspicious.

The core problem is that you voted for Hindu while seeming to voice stronger suspicions on Leech. How can you be tentative for not voting your suspicion, while at the same time pressuring someone else for not voting their suspicion? When

you

seem to be voting against your stronger suspicion.

Nothing

in your posts suggest that you are more suspicious of Hindu than Leech. Your posts suggest the exact opposite. The only statements you give concerning Hindu are:

-Your vote "to pressure you (Hindu) for a defense from Leech's suspicions"
-Stating that you're "intrigued by Leech's post"
-"Your post (Leech's) was sufficient enough for me to join you in pointing the FoS at Hinduragi"
-Suggestions that Leech and Hindu could be scum buddies.

Each of your statements about Hindu have more to do with Leech than Hindu. When you voted for Hindu, you spent most of the post articulating your suspicions that Leech was scum.


Concerning posts 55 and 57. I understand the context well enough to realize that you aren't accurately representing it. You stated in multiple posts (posts 35 and 40) that you were "backing off" of Leech. When questioned about these statements, you responded with:

So, unless your goal here is to make yourself look suspicious (which, ironically, you now are), then I'm not sure why you have a problem with me moving on?

The issue wasn't you "moving on" or admitting a weak early lead but rather why you felt the need to make unsolicited statements about "backing off" in multiple posts. Your response to questions about these statements was an OMGUS threat to Leech.

The "winning arguments not scum hunting" issue of post 79 is admittedly more difficult to pin down. There's an important difference between who's right and who's scum. Your discussion with Leech about the relative value of mislynches really has little to do with finding scum yet you seem to attach alignment to it:

This is just pure scum nonsense. A town mislynch can certainly be helpful sometimes, but to argue that your survival is not crucial is so beyond the pale as to be a huge slip up on your part. With townie dead, we have one less possible power, one less vote, one less pair of eyes to help investigate, one less person to pressure someone else who we suspect to be scum. Town deaths can be helpful, but for the most part they are unhelpful. There is a reason why scum tend to push for mislynches, because even if it may cause them to look suspicious, they have other ways of deflecting that suspicion away, which means that a town mislynch simply brings them closer to a win. I honestly cannot fathom why you would make such a ridiculous argument.

The problem isn't who's right or wrong (you're wrong by the way ). The problem is that you hide in a debate over who is right or wrong. The above quote isn't scum hunting yet you attach scum accusations to it.

[Chimp Pants]

@Trach: What do you hope to accomplish with your self imposed voting policy?

[Chimp Pants]

@Myst: Again, no skimming here. Only repeated careful reads of what you actually wrote. It just so happens that my notes on you had significantly more scum marks than other players.

Your last point about winning an argument seems contrived. You even mention that I got a scum read out of it, even though you think it was nothing more than trying to win an argument.

No. You had an argument about right and wrong to which you incorrectly attached scum reads. Leech was right, wrong, or somewhere in between, but it had no bearing on his alignment. You took an issue that doesn't suggest alignment and used it to claim someone was scummy. Wrong does not necessarily equal scummy.

Now you attempt to separate your suspicions of Hindu and Leech when your posts paint a different picture. You voted for Hindu because of Leech's post yet seemed to suspect Leech more than Hindu because Leech failed to vote for Hindu. No skimming. This is essentially what you wrote.

[Chimp Pants]

@Star: Care to offer opinions about this game? Most of your posts have either been promises for later content or focused on issues not directly related to finding scum. We could use some content from you.

[Chimp Pants]

@Star: That must have been a long shower.

@Trachimbrod: I'm repeating this so it doesn't get missed: What do you hope to accomplish with your self imposed voting policy?

@Thian: You said that Brod used "caution when there was no need for it." When might there be a need for Brod's caution?

@DrShotty: What specifically changed between Post 177 and Post 206 that caused you to vote for Mysterio?

@Kirby: You said in Post 168 that, "I'm not pushing for Hindu's lynch because I don't have enough on him yet to call him scum, just that he's the most suspicious one so far." You later piggybacked onto DrShotty's active lurking accusation. What is your current opinion of Hindu?

[Chimp Pants]

To expand on Leech's questions to DrShotty, because I think some of it could get missed:

In Post 177 DrShotty calls Myst's wagon a "scum driven mislynch" with likely both scum on it. DrShotty then realizes he miscounted the votes. Fair enough. Post 178 says that only one scum (Hindu) is on the wagon.

I mis counted votes, I though he was L-1 not L-2 sorry no need to unvote, and only one scum is probubaly on that wagon, and I think it is Hindu

This still seems to imply that DrShotty believes that a Myst lynch would be a mislynch. It reads to me more like a player analyzing a mislynch on D2 than an ongoing D1 wagon.

Both posts seem to work under the assumption that Myst is town.

Now DrShotty says:

Ok this is starting to get annoying, guys I always found mysterio scummy, just not as much as hindu, but then hindu explained himself and it made sense so thats why my vote changed.

[Chimp Pants]

UNVOTE: Mysterio
VOTE: drmyshottyizsik

@DrShotty: If you think there's no evidence that Myst is scum, why are you voting for him?

And I'm not sure Myst would be a for sure mislynch it's just we have no evidence saying he is scum. He hasn't really slipped

[Chimp Pants]

@DrShotty: Yes you are.

Vote:Mysterio

^^^ He's L-1

[Chimp Pants]

Wait a second, I'm confused by your statement....

I said that if you don't think Mysterio is scum, why are you voting for him.

You said that you're not, you're voting for Mysterio?

[Chimp Pants]

So there's a "reason" but no "evidence."

[Chimp Pants]

@Mod: When exactly is our deadline? Thanks.

[Chimp Pants]

@Hindu: I'm pretty sure Myst is V/LA until Wednesday and Star's probably still showering.

Brod's also V/LA until the 20th which is probably deadline day. I find it unusual and a bit frustrating that Trachimbrod's self imposed voting policy could let him to skate through D1 without ever committing to any opinions. We all need to figure out what town motivations Brod could have for such an approach. Maybe Brod needs to figure that out first.

@Star: Got anything for us?

I'm eagerly awaiting DrShotty's comments.

[Chimp Pants]

@DrShotty: The question remains, why are you voting for Myst? Also, please cite specifically in which post you confused Mysterio for Black Mist. Quotes, links, or post numbers will be fine.

@Star: It's lather, rinse, repeat; not lather, rinse, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.... Care to contribute?

[Chimp Pants]

I'm doing that damn iso I promised, and I kinda feel a night phase is in order.

I was originally asked about Steppenwolf, and it appears his replacement is under some scrutiny. So that's where I'll start.

Post 213 came shortly after DrShotty put Myst at L-1.
Post 241 comes as the pressure is mounting on DrShotty.

Follow bandwagons much?


And for giggles and lack of context.... (This part is a joke)

Lemme shower and eat and I'll throw up...

[Chimp Pants]

@Myst: I think we may be talking past each other on a few points.

My suspicion of Leech was NOT greater than my suspicion of Hindu at the time. I suspected Hindu for making a completely random scare post about mislynches when no one even brought it up, however the lack of vote by Leech made me question whether Leech was simply distancing or sincerely scumhunting.

I can't evaluate what you're thinking when you write. I only have what you write. What you

wrote

seems focused almost exclusively on Leech while simultaneously voting for Hindu. As far as I can tell, you never articulated your opinion of Hindu (beyond citing Leech's post) while you were voting for him (if I misrememberized it, let me know; most of your content while voting for Hindu was the much maligned WOT battle with Leech). Just as you saw Leech not voting for his stated suspicions, I saw you doing the same. I'm willing to consider the possibility that you

thought

Hindu was scummy while appearing significantly more focused on Leech. Consider me "backing off" on this point for now. I'm "backing off..." "Backing off" now. "Back..."

Someone claiming that his survival is not crucial as town is certainly making a point that has alignment implications. When the point of the game is to blend in as scum, making these kinds of comments can give away intentions. I pointed out the mislynch issue as a serious point about the scumminess of his comment, which you seem to be ignoring.

I'm "ignoring" Leech's comments about mislynches because I generally agree with them. Sure mislynches aren't fun, but tentative townies afraid of mislynching is far worse. Tentativeness causes townies to lose focus, waffle, and follow the whims of popular opinion. Scum can pretty easily follow or manipulate a wishy-washy town into repeated mislynches.

Losing focus means the scum win every time

. D1 lynches are mislynches most of the time. Scum win newbie games a little more than half the time. You do the math. My most recent completed game ended in a town win after D1 and D2 mislynches. I was the D2 mislynch but I'm still happy we won.

Beyond that, I don't think that either yours or Leech's position on mislynches has any indication of alignment.

The fact is you're stretching beyond reason at this point in order to support a bandwagon vote. Although, you've now changed your vote to the first person to act questionable since you joined the game. Which helps to prove my point.

What point is that? That Shotty's obvscum bandwagon vote against his stated opinion is scummier than you? That's not exactly earth shattering. I've picked up some serious OMGUS vibes from you play thus far. I'm not sure yet if this is OMGUS-why-can't-they-see-I'm-town or OMGUS-he's-caught-me-shut-him-up. I'll have to do some more reads.


On Shotty and being a VI: Can a VI be self aware? Check his sig. I'll need to check his meta to see what this means for his alignment, but Shotty's playstyle is intentional.

[Chimp Pants]

DrShotty: To clear up any confusion, in what post(s) are you thinking about another game?

[Chimp Pants]

@Myst: What

inaccurate

claims do I continue to repeat?

Is my characterization of your

stated

opinions relative to your vote inaccurate?
You voted for Hindu in post 26 and unvoted post 80. The only post that you even addressed Hindu while you were voting him was post 78. Based on post 80, it seems you actually intended to unvote Hindu in post 78 or 79. Post 78 doesn't seem to give a reason for your Hindu vote anyway. The only reason you gave for your Hindu vote was to cite Leech's post 25.

So my claim that you never articulated

why

you voted for Hindu while voting for him is accurate.

So are you voting for me based on disagreements over mafia theory? Is there anything in my position about mislynches that indicates

alignment

? Or are you voting for me simply because I'm repeating myself?

Going back to post 78: It is a bit interesting that you characterize Hindu's "don't mislynch anyone" statement as a "somewhat obvious game tip" when discussing the town's concerns over it. A number players, including myself, seem to suggest the exact opposite- that actively trying to avoid mislynches isn't good for the town. Otherwise, no-lynches would be a viable D1 strategy, but they're not (they are

very

bad). Avoiding mislynches rather than seeking to lynch scum makes this game much harder for the town.

The fact is you're stretching beyond reason at this point in order to support a bandwagon vote. Although, you've now changed your vote to the first person to act questionable since you joined the game. Which helps to prove my point.

Please explain what your point is here that's been "proved." Isn't is pro-town to vote for the player that I think is scum?

[Chimp Pants]

However, I'm leaving my vote on Chimp because he has continued to make repeat accusations, even though he's not actually voting for me anymore. Which goes to show that he's not even scumhunting, but simply desperately defending a bandwagon vote.

I'll repeat my question then. What repeated accusations that I've made are inaccurate? Concerning point two: How does my vote for Shotty prove that I'm not scum hunting but rather engaging in a desperate defense of a band wagon vote?


@Shotty: Please tell us which posts contain your confusion about Myst and Black Mist.

@Brod: Since you're soon to be returning from V/LA, I'll ask again. What do you hope to obtain with your self imposed voting policy?

[Chimp Pants]

My guess is he doesn't have anything to claim, otherwise he would have done it after Leech put him at L-1.

Could you clarify what you mean by this?

[Chimp Pants]

@Myst: I'm more interested in what you meant by "my guess is he doesn't have anything to claim."

[Chimp Pants]

I meant to add this to the last post. There's a chance we might have a longer than average twilight. Don't let this discourage participation- I'm thinking in particular about those players who were V/LA over the past few days and those less participatory players.

[Chimp Pants]

@Trachimbrod: Since you're probably back, what do you hope to accomplish with your voting policy?

On the Incognito Theory: I know my sample is small, but I started checking completed newbie games for the alignment of the first poster. The result is that nearly 100% of the time the first poster is the mod . Seriously though, I got tired of checking after 11 games turned up townie. Eleven games is in no way useful to apply to this game, but I suspect that Icognito's claim of "about 50% scum" or whatever he claims is a bit of hyperbole. The theory is a fun RVS discussion starter, but probably nothing more than that.

[Chimp Pants]

I wanted someone to say "Chimp Pants is obvious town" but noone did.

@Hindu: What would someone saying that do to your read on them?

[Chimp Pants]

Hindu: I will tomorrow. Promise.

What makes you so sure you won't be NKed?

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian: Why did it take you so long to find someone to vote for after voting for someone not in the game (As far as I can tell, you left that vote on Drowmage for over 2 weeks before voting shotty- if I missed an unvote or another vote, let me know)?

[Chimp Pants]

I just finished charting out the votes. Hopefully this information will be useful to analyze D2. I'd encourage everyone to do this to. I'd post mine, but formatting it into something legible is a pain. Some general comments (I may be repeating myself or others here). Please correct any mistakes you might find.

General Player Points

Neither Star nor Trachimbrod ever placed a vote.
Leech started the Myst BW, rode it all the way to L-1 and back to being the lone voter before putting Shotty at L-1.
Thian held a vote for Drowmage (not in this game) for 2 weeks before placing vote #2 on Shotty. Thian stayed with the BW to the end.

Bandwagons

Those having votes for Myst while Myst was at L-1: Leech, Hind, Chimp, and DrShotty.
Those having votes for Shotty while Shotty was at L-1: Chimp (BW reached L-1 twice), Thian (same), Kirby (same), DrShotty, and Kirby.

Wagon Hoppers

In terms of vote volume, Myst and Shotty placed the most votes (4 each).
Number of times placing votes 2-5 (anything but the first vote): Shotty (3), Kirby (2), Myst (2), Leech (1), Hind (1), Thian (1), Chimp (1).

[Chimp Pants]

VOTE: Thian
My initial read on Thian was town because I though he was asking good questions. After charting out the votes and doing some isos, something seems wrong. His D1 play reads like he could be cheerleading bandwagons. In Post 148 he lists Myst as his top candidate without a vote or even fos. His play style seems very careful.

[Chimp Pants]

@Star: Who do you think is scum?

[Chimp Pants]

@Kirby: Are you feeling up to giving a reason for your vote yet?

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian: Could you explain why you think that Shotty was a distraction to the town?

@Star: You keep bringing up this game's short RVS. Many players on MS seem to encourage a short RVS. What value do you find in a more significant RVS?

D2 and on there are flips and wagons to analyze, and that's when I personally start to form theories. When that happens I begin to apply pressure and place votes, and my activity snowballs.

When can we expect this to happen?

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian:
Please correct me if I'm wrong so that I can be sure to understand you: You find Star scummy because his play is inconsistent with his stated opinions about basic mafia strategy. Is this correct?

I'll comment on Thian/Mysterio after I see Mysterio's response.

[Chimp Pants]

@Kirby: Even if we accept the useless WIFOM that comes from speculating about a NK at this point, this doesn't make sense. In your WIFOM Hindu called me obvtown, scumChimp thought that a townie (Hindu) was lying, panicked, and NKd him. What scum motivations would I have to NK someone who called me obvtown?

You've had a week to come up with a reason for your vote and all you have is NK WIFOM that doesn't even makes sense on its own terms.

[Chimp Pants]

@Kirby: He wasn't looking for buddies. I asked him what someone calling me obvtown would mean.

They'd appear scummy. Trying to out someone as town so early is nothing town would do. Scum would know said person is town and would say "Hey, he's playing well. That vote isn't well justified. I'll get some support and attack the vote".

He said "scum would notice said person

is town

." He made no mention of looking for scum buddies. In order for your NK speculation to be internally consistent, we have to assume that Hindu was lying about his reason for voting for me. At the very least, you'd have to assume that

I believed

that Hindu was lying about his reasoning. Do my posts suggest that to you? Why would a VT lie about why he's voting?

[Chimp Pants]

I'm looking forward to all the promised content...

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian: I'm not interested in you claiming until there's a chance for a lynch. We have over a week until the deadline. That's plenty of time

if the activity levels pick up

.

@Mysterio:

You didn't even bother unvoting, which says to me you never had any intention of voting until Shotty came around and gave you an easy target to finally vote for.

. You kept a vote on a player that wasn't in the game and never bothered to unvote when that fact was pointed out to you.

How would unvoting have made Thian seem less scummy?

[Chimp Pants]

@Mod: Can we get a prod on Startransmission? He logged in today and this is his only active game.

Already done.

~Vel

@Mysterio: How would unvoting Drowmage have made Thian seem less scummy?

@Star: You there? We're a week away from our a D2 deadline and you still haven't voted.

[Chimp Pants]

We're pushing pretty close to deadline without much in the way of wagons. If anyone else would support a Thian lynch, I think putting him at L-1 soon would be best for the town. If you're not willing to do so, we need you to explicitly state that as soon as possible. The sooner the better.

We

really

need content from Kalimar (welcome replacement) and Star's slot.

[Chimp Pants]

@Mysterio: Maybe this will be a repeat of D1 since those posts don't really answer my question. Remember, I'm also already voting for Thian, so this isn't about your overall reason for voting for Thian.

You've stated at least twice that part of Thian's scumminess stems from him voting for Drowmage (a player not in this game) during the RVS and never unvoting until he voted for Shotty. Since not unvoting makes Thian scummier in your eyes, we can conclude that had he unvoted, he would have appeared less scummy to you. I'm asking about unvoting....

Had Thian simply unvoted after his mistake was pointed out to him, how would that make him less scummy?


@Kalimar:

Chimp - Yesterday (Day 1) you appeared to be rather suspicious of Mysterio. Is he still a suspect of yours? In your ISO post #2 You give a list of reasons why Myst is suspicious, but don't back up with a vote. Infact, today you're not voting him at all even though you've elaborated more on why Myst is suspicious than Thian. Why is that?
You also post some vote chart for analysis but don't analyse it yourself. Some 'information over analysis' for you.

1. You asked if I am still suspicious of Mysterio: I am still suspicious of Mysterio but I currently believe Thian's vote for Shotty is more suspicious.
2. You stated that I never voted for Mysterio despite giving reasons that I found him suspicious. That doesn't accurately reflect the truth. I replaced into a slot that already had an existing vote on Mysterio.

First, Illume had voted for Mysterio, and I'll confirm that I agree with that vote.

3. You stated that during D2 I've elaborated more on why Mysterio is suspicious than Thian. That is not true. My only interaction with or discussion of Mysterio D2 has been one question (now asked 3 times) that hasn't been answered to my satisfaction.
4. You gave me some 'information over analysis' points for my vote chart at the end of D1. My D2 vote for Thian is based on my vote chart (some of which wasn't practical to post here due to formatting troubles). The information I posted gave highlights of things I found interesting prior to the NK and prior to spending some time rereading the game.

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian: Unless you expect to be gone before the deadline, we need to earn your claim with votes. I appreciate what you're trying to do- it counts for townie points in my book. We need opinions from the town as a whole more than your claim.

@All: Please explicitly state whether or not you're willing to vote for Thian. If not, please give your top choice. You win a prize (well, maybe not) if you actually

vote

for your top scum candidate (unless of course Thian reaches L-1 and he hasn't claimed yet).

I'll start: I'm already voting for Thian, but I could see possibly supporting a Mysterio lynch. I'm not sure what I feel about Kirby's vote for Mysterio though.

[Chimp Pants]

UNVOTE: Thian
VOTE: Kirbyoshi

That's L-1.

Kirby's reasons for voting for Thian don't seem genuine and seem opportunistic.

[Chimp Pants]

EBWOP: That doesn't make any sense.... The vote stays, but I combined a couple thoughts into one mess of confusion.

Kirby's vote for

Mysterio

doesn't seem genuine.

[Chimp Pants]

You're accusing Kirby of being opportunistic

@ Mysterio: That's what I wrote, but not what I meant to write. You'll notice that in that post I also said that Kirby had a vote on Thian which isn't true. Instead of carefully proofreading my post like I usually do, I spent that time making sure I hadn't missed a vote on Kirby (I didn't want to accidentally hammer). I put together 2 unrelated thought into 1 sentence. My mistake and I apologize for any confusion I caused.


Neither of Kirby's D2 votes make sense to me. I mostly ignored the vote for me at the time. I didn't want to make the mistake of equating being wrong with being scummy. I absolutely don't understand Kirby's reason for voting for Mysterio.

@Thian: Are you trying to link yourself to me in case you're lynched? You've tended to be quick to jump to my defense.

@Mysterio again: You really haven't answered the question. How would Thian unvoting Drowmage make him less scummy in your eyes?

[Chimp Pants]

chimp: should I not jump to your defense?

@Thian: That depends on if you're scum. I find it telling that you're not denying it. Now I just have to figure out what that means...

Where do you currently stand on Kirby?

[Chimp Pants]

Quoting the specific parts now because you clearly can't be bothered to read people's posts:

Have you bothered to read my question? You're answering a different question,

not

what I'm asking.

Do not ask me this question again.

@Mysterio: I think I will ask it again.... I think we're talking past each other a bit. I'm not asking for your case on Thian. I'm asking a specific question which isn't being addressed.

During RVS Thian voted for Drowmage. When this was pointed out to him, Thian made a comment about not posting after coming back from a bar. Had he accompanied that comment with an unvote, how would that have changed anything you mentioned in Post 413? How would Thian unvoting when his non-vote was pointed out change your perceptions of Thian's play? You mentioned multiple times that Thian failing to unvote plays a role in his scumminess.

Consider it this way. If instead of writing this:

Note to self: Don't post when coming home after the bar.

he had wrtten this:

Note to self: Don't post when coming home after the bar. Unvote:Drowmage

What would be different? How would that be less scummy?

[Chimp Pants]

The deadline is today. Someone needs to hammer now.

[Chimp Pants]

Stop! Hammer time! Someone not voting needs to make this happen.

[Chimp Pants]

@Mysterio: You've made the assertion that I only skim your posts several times. This is

not

true. I read every word very carefully. I've said as much multiple times. Maybe you're skimming?

I understand your general argument about Thian. I've stated as much several times when I asked my question (maybe you skimmed those parts). I even made a similar argument when I voted for Thian (did you skim this?). I don't understand

why you felt the need to beef up your case against Thian with something as irrelevant as his vote on Drowmage

. You have suggest twice (Post 336 and Post 354) that his long lasting vote on Drowmage by itself suggests scumminess. Now you seem to be backing off and calling it no different than Star's failure to vote. Which is it?

[Chimp Pants]

With the pace of this game, I don't think we're in any position to be rearranging votes this late. Discussion is fine, but someone needs to be prepared to hammer before deadline.

In fact, someone could hammer and we could still discuss during twilight. That might be a safer option.

Hammer time...

[Chimp Pants]

Why would someone make up that they saved Star? It wouldn't be my first expected pick for a contrived response.

Look at it from the doc perspective. Why would he protect Star?

[Chimp Pants]

@Mysterio: Yes I read your posts. Maybe you should too. I don't understand what Thian's failure to unvote had to do with his vote for Shotty.

You didn't even bother unvoting, which says to me you never had any intention of voting until Shotty came around and gave you an easy target to finally vote for.

What does Thian unvoting a vote that

never counted

have to do with his vote on Shotty? Had he unvoted immediately or even never placed a vote like Star or Brod, his vote for Shotty would be the same. Did Drowmage ever show up in the vote counts? Of course not. What would be the use of Thian unvoting and why is failing to do so scummy?

I fully understand how Thian's votes were opportunistic. His vote caught my attention enough to look carefully at him and vote for him at the start of D2 (remember the guy who voted Thian before you did?). I understand that your points were looking at Thian's votes on Shotty, but you repeatedly used Thian's failure to make an unnecessary unvote to enhance your point. Now you're attempting to put me in a scummy light for wondering why you're pretending that only some of your words count.

Would you care to elaborate on this "classic scum tell" of mine?

Hammering a claimed doc in order to slip in a deadline lynch is just terrible. We could have just as easily discussed his claim during the next day phase, instead of hammering a potential town PR. Ugh

Based on this game's activity level, you were willing to risk a on lynch to save a claimed doc?

[Chimp Pants]

EBWOP: Based on this game's activity level, you were willing to risk a

no

lynch to save a claimed doc? I'm not sure what an on lynch is, but it's probably awesome.

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian:

Note: Doctors are 100% effective in Newbie Games (the person they protect will never die on the night they are protected). You may not protect yourself.

[Chimp Pants]

@Thian: I guess we know you're not the doc.

[Chimp Pants]

Why would you ever consider posting that? Why does it matter to you if Thian's the doc or not? He's not being lynched, so it should not be a concern. If Kirby flips scum, there is a doc in this game, and you are town: Thanks for helping them narrow it down. You guys need to start thinking about what you're posting and the repercussions of posting them. I'm seriously starting to think we're going to lose this game.

If Kirby flips scum, the remaining scum still have no idea what the setup is, meaning either/both PRs are still in play, and still Thian's just as likely to be a cop as anyone else. Your scenario also assumes absolute incompetence (or maybe little investment in this game, which could be true) on the part of the remaining scum that they wouldn't notice Thian's misguided comments. While you're right that my comment didn't advance the town's goals (point taken, I got a little chatty), I don't think it advanced scum goals any either.

As far as your general comments go, I think you're being a bit pessimistic here. Your pessimism is predicated on Kirby flipping town, which seems in contradiction to your stated opinions. Why do you suddenly believe that Kirby will flip town?

I would blame any potential D2 failing on the way the entire day came to a halt. If we're wrong, that's what did us in.

[Chimp Pants]

Why are you assuming that we don't have an incompetent scum team? Why are you assuming that it's more likely that the scum is involved in this game, rather than uninvolved, when the larger portion of the game has been uninvolved?

Assuming incompetent scum opens you up for all sorts of WIFOM problems.

Disinterested

scum is a different issue entirely and something that I admitted to in my post.

Your scenario also assumes absolute incompetence (or maybe little investment in this game, which could be true) on the part of the remaining scum that they wouldn't notice Thian's misguided comments.

You issue with my statements is fair, but is predicated on me being town. If I'm scum, pointing this out to Thian

doesn't

further scum goals. I still think you are over exaggerating the "damage" caused by those statements anyway.

It's laughable if you actually think that by narrowing down the potential PR list that it didn't advance scum goals.

I didn't narrow down the potential PR list, only the potential doc list. There's one setup where I could have actually had a detrimental impact on the town, and that again assumes that scum can't or won't read (yet they somehow bothered to read my post). I'll admit that your point is fair- lesson learned- but I think you are being over-dramatic. Assuming Kirby flips scum, a few stray twilight comments means the town will lose? Even after we just lynched scum?
.
The whole issue becomes irrelevant if Kirby flips doc.

[Chimp Pants]

VOTE: Mysterio

L-1.

Just repeating everyone else, but we should lynch Myst today and Thian tomorrow (if there is a tomorrow). If anyone feels the need to mass claim to confirm Thian's claim, that's fine, but we don't need it.

]Mr Maferio.

Nice.

@Mysterio: Way to go down swinging. Good game scum.

[Chimp Pants]

I was the doc, random org proteccted champ (really lucky town there).

That wasn't luck. I had been softclaiming to random.org all game .

I tried to kill Chimp Pants last night as I pegged him as doc.

If you're still around, what gave you the doc read?

I thought Kalimar was doc for some reason.

I had Leech as the doc .

It sounds like Myst WIFOMed himself with his NK choice. I guess Thian would have been protected had there been an active doc during the night though.

[Chimp Pants]

Is there a quick topic that we can read?

@Thian: I guess I have a perpetual scum read on you. You've changed my mind both times though.

[Chimp Pants]

startransmission protects Chimp Pants.
Thian investigates Chimp Pants.

Mysterio kills Chimp Pants.
startransmission protects Chimp Pants (random.org)

I'm glad to see I'm so loved .

I'm a little surprised that Leech wasn't ever NK'd. His town alignment seemed pretty obvious and his scum hunting was accurate.

Leech instead of roleblocking him would put me under too much suspicion.

As scum, it can be hard to kill off your biggest attacker out of fear of drawing attention to yourself. In this case, I think it would have been the best play (unless scum had picked up any PR crumbs elsewhere). Many players here view NK speculation as mostly useless. I think Mysterio might have been able to work his way out of a day 2 lynch. In that scenario, the worst case for scum would have been Myst getting lynched, therby preserving the roleblocker.

Also, we got REALLY lucky with star random protecting Chimp

That really didn't matter. As long as Thian survived with his investigation results, this was a sure win. I'd hope that a real doc would have protected Thian, thus ensuring the win. Mysterio kind of WIFOMed himself out of killing Thian and got outfoxed by a random number generator . I'm glad randomStar loves me though.

@Hindu: When you called me obvtown, I wondered if you were the doc trying to bait the scum into killing me. I'd be interested to know if that's what caused realStar to protect me.

On Star: At first I thought his lack of D1 participation was a survival strategy to avoid the added dangers that town aligned ICs face (ICs are popular NK targets). I guess it was more lack of interest than anything else. I'm glad both realStar and randomStar wanted to keep me alive though.

Springlullaby gets this game's MVP award, no doubt.