Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[LordChronos]

First off, hi Leech and Vas.

Second, from quickly reading the thread it seems we have a uncooperative player on our hands here. Leech, could you link me the game where he self hammered in LyLo as town? I think you mentioned this early on.

I'll work on a more detailed read of the game.

[LordChronos]

Eggy, earlier you said that (I assume) the previous discussion was unhelpful for scumhunting, yet you have done pretty much none of that yourself. You make indecisive comments about how you think the wagon is town driven but someone unknown on it is scum and you don't know who, but you don't analyze posts, you don't make a case, you don't interrogate. You just say you don't know who the scum are.

Why make that comment when you are much more guilty than the preceding posters?

[LordChronos]

Have you come up with any theories yet as to who the scum are?

[LordChronos]

Are you going to try to find out who the scum are?

[LordChronos]

Are you asking what I think of the players on it or whether I think Shotty should be lynched?

[LordChronos]

I think that if Shotty is as bad as Leech suggested, we need to get rid of him before LyLo. If a lynch is the only way to do this, we may need to use up a lynch on it.

About the players on the Shotty wagon:

I like Leech's play thus far. It is consistent with the last game I played with him where he was town. Lots of nice analysis.

Need to reread the others. I've been out in the rain refereeing all day, so I haven't gotten through a detailed read through yet.

@Vas

You said you don't like Kingcheese's PBPA because it was preemptive. I don't see why making a PBPA without being asked is a preemptive defense. It allows others to see what your opinions are and provides more content to analyze, thus it is helpful and pro-town.

[LordChronos]

I have a conflicted read on Avish right now. First I see things like this:

I know. That's why I feel bad. It's not my innocence or survival that has me bugged. I'm afraid I am becoming a scum shield. It seems to me that I am the one people are most mistrustful of at this point. I'm not worried about dying. But if I don't and people keep focusing on me so much, than that seems problematic to me. I realize everybody should be under suspicion, but I've garnered quite a bit of it.

This gives me a feeling of frustrated townie.

Then he goes and says the things Leech brought up in his last post, which give me a scummy feeling. Right now, I get more of a defensive scum feel from him than a frustrated townie feel, so I will

Unvote; Vote: Avish

. This is L-2. Would like to see responses from him to Leech's points.

For now, anyway.

@Leech

I never said you were determined to lynch Shotty initially in this game. I asked about the link because I like to be thorough about such things. And of course a scum lynch > an anti-town lynch.

[LordChronos]

Are you going to try to find out who the scum are?

Yes.

Who do you think they are?

[LordChronos]

I have barely talked about the policy lynch, what is your read on me? Leech's last post didn't deal with the policy lynch. Why do you find Avish scummy?

Also, why is it hard for you to read us when we talk about a policy lynch?

[LordChronos]

Is AV Aurorus Vox or Avish?

Sorry about the gender mixup, Avish. Will respond to your post fully tomorrow.

[LordChronos]

Yeahh, Avish is scum alright. Pity, I kind of liked her. She's doing a good job sounding genuine but actions speak louder than words, and there be common newbie scumtells in her play. (Overdefensiveness, survival-ism etc.)

LC and TL are battling for the silver medal in this game's Scummy Olympics. TL for possible chainsaw among others(I forget right now, but I remember having bad feelings about his slot too. Here's me reminding myself to post them once I have time/goodmemory.) , and LC for his horribad #163 filled with contradictions, with indications of failbussing.

----

You said you don't like Kingcheese's PBPA because it was preemptive. I don't see why making a PBPA without being asked is a preemptive defense. It allows others to see what your opinions are and provides more content to analyze, thus it is helpful and pro-town.

The main difference is it was only when I called him possible scum that he did something. It is helpful and pro-town, yes but pre-emptiveness always give me bad feelings.

Um, let's see here. Of course my post #163 had contradictions in it, Vas, didn't you read what I said? I said I felt that some things Avish was doing seemed like the actions of a townie, while others didn't. Why is it scummy for me to think that? For that matter you yourself just said that she sounds genuine, which is pretty much what I said about that first quote in 163.

Going back to the PBPA, how is it preemptive if he did after you accused him? That would seem to me to be reactive rather than preemptive. And I don't care how preemptive you think it was, it was a pro-town thing to do, thus was not a scumtell.

[LordChronos]

LordChronos' vote seems like an opportunity to try and push a wagon on Avish, with flimsy reasoning. It really is opportunistic, and if I wasn't voting for shotty I'd vote for LordChronos.

FoS: LC

Or, you know, I might have been trying to get reactions from Avish and/or others. Which it seems I have done. The game just sitting on a policy lynch of shotty with no real pushes anywhere else with votes makes for less information.

[LordChronos]

Kingcheese, Vas has never voted TheLonging in this game. Are you referring to his last post where he said that TL and I were battling for second scummiest player?

The case against Avish right now is basically that she was opportunistic in her vote for Shotty and that her question about the number of games we have played as non-newbies was irrevelant and distracting. She explained the other comment that was complained about.

@Avish

Sorry about the misperception of your comment about the more neutral players giving you problems.

@TheLonging

You said you would vote me if you weren't voting Shotty. Am I correct in assuming that you find what I did scummy? Do you think shotty is likely to be scum?

[LordChronos]

I will make a more substantive post later, but reading the last few posts something jumped out at me about Avish:

Your irritation at me asking a seemingly random question in this, a newbie game, seems overblown. So what if a newbie is asking a random question in a newbie game?

then:

Keep in mind that I come from somewhere where mafia is played in a very different way. THAT is actually why I asked my oh-so distracting question. I was trying to figure out how used you guys are to actually playing with newbies.

Saying that you have been playing mafia elsewhere and were asking that question to see how much we have played with newbies and then downplaying scummy play in this game as just being newbie mistakes is contradictory. Yes, mafia is played differently on different sites but you are still either a newbie or you aren't.

@Kingcheese

Why mention that you had a theory about Eggy if you weren't going to share it?

@TL

Why is shotty scum?

@shotty

Random votes don't put pressure on anyone.

@Avish

Aggressive behavior is not a scumtell.

[LordChronos]

Going back to the PBPA, how is it preemptive if he did after you accused him? That would seem to me to be reactive rather than preemptive. And I don't care how preemptive you think it was, it was a pro-town thing to do, thus was not a scumtell.

I think we are operating on different wavelengths here.

PbPAs are protown. I don't disagre with that. The problem is that it was pre-emptive. It is not scummy in itself, but it had a quality that made me suspicious(the pre-emptiveness). Whenever I have bad feelings on something, I will glady call that person out on it to invoke a reaction.

The point I disagree with you on is the pre-emptiveness. You appear to me to be arguing that it is scummy for him to make the PBPA before you asked him to, which is utterly ridiculous. If you are arguing that he was preemptively defending himself from you, you are wrong, because he made that after you accused him, so it wasn't preemptive in that sense.

Vas, you say you think LC's post in which he voted for Avish (his #163) was "terribad" -- but his vote is on Avish, who is your top suspect. Do you think this is a stretched attempt at finding reasons to bus a partner? Why would LC vote for Avish when there was a convenient wagon on Shotty? What do you make of LC's pressure argument? I have my own concerns with it but I'd like to hear yours first.*

That's exactly it. Failbussing are fail busses because it looks pretty obvious. That's the vibe I got from his #163. And I don't buy his defense that 'Of course it contradicts! I said it right there!', that's a pretty handy excuse. He's basically admitting the contradiction so that we can't call it out on him. However, a contradiction is a contradiction is a contradiction.

I'm confident enough to say that if Avish flips scum, LC should be speedlynched(maybe we can break the fastest lynch record!).

First, you said yourself that Avish sounded genuine but has acted scummy. You contradicted yourself!! You must be scum failbussing Avish!! We should lynch you!

See how ridiculous that sounds?

Let's look at what I said:

I have a conflicted read on Avish right now. First I see things like this:

I know. That's why I feel bad. It's not my innocence or survival that has me bugged. I'm afraid I am becoming a scum shield. It seems to me that I am the one people are most mistrustful of at this point. I'm not worried about dying. But if I don't and people keep focusing on me so much, than that seems problematic to me. I realize everybody should be under suspicion, but I've garnered quite a bit of it.

This gives me a feeling of frustrated townie.

Then she goes and says the things Leech brought up in his last post, which give me a scummy feeling. Right now, I get more of a defensive scum feel from her than a frustrated townie feel, so I will Unvote; Vote: Avish. This is L-2. Would like to see responses from her to Leech's points.

(edited for gender)

Let's see, I said that Avish has said things that sound like a frustrated townie. In other words, that she sounds genuine and not scummy. Then I pointed out things that make me think she is scum. This is different from what you said how?

Second, speedlynching is an incredibly anti-town thing to do. All it does (assuming no day abilities for mafia that could screw you over, which is the case in newbie games) is deny information to the town in the event you are wrong. If you were to speed lynch me tomorrow and I flip town, you have just wasted an entire day.

[LordChronos]

Not sure who you think you will be hammering there shotty.

[LordChronos]

and shotty comes here again proving why I want to lynch him!

LC: Are your wins as town coming from when you have been alive? How many of those games (both wins and losses) were from you in endgame/close to endgame? Same for scum ratio.

Just curious

Lost in endgame as town my first game, lived to the end of another for a win, was lynched in LyLo in another for a loss, lived to endgame and lost again in another, lynched second to last day for a win in another, was nightkilled day 1 in a loss game, and lost at endgame in a tricky power role alternate wincon situation that Vas knows all about.

As scum I won after being lynched the second to last day, then lived to the end for a win, did it again, lived near to end then lost.

So, 5 live to end or near end and win, 5 live to end or near end and lose, 1 killed very early.

Why do you ask? And by the way, I keep my wiki fairly up to date, though I need to add the other games I am in right now.

By the way, why is shotty allowed to play in newbie games if he acts like this?

If he chooses to play this way that's his choice. He's not occupying a critical IC role (and is not ever going to be allowed to do so) and it can be an instructional way for the newer players to learn how to deal with a playstyle they're unfortunately likely to encounter on the rest of the site.

~Vel

[LordChronos]

Reasons why you should vote Avish today:

Avish has voted opportunistically. Avish's vote, 3 days before deadline, is an OMGUS vote on Leech, without much scumhunting or many arguments to back it up. Avish is being contradictory by saying she is asking newbie questions while simultaneously saying she is experienced. Avish is not scumhunting and hasn't been for a while, just defending.

@AV

It's rather unlikely you will get a lynch on VV today.

@Leech, The Longing

TheLonging posted a case against shotty on the last page. Basically it said shotty is scum because he didn't answer his own questions, implies/says he is town, lies, random votes outside the RVS, and doesn't scumhunt. The problem with this case is that it is a list of

anti-town

things shotty has done rather than a list of scummy things. If we didn't have a scummier candidate available, sure I would policy lynch shotty. But we do have a scummier candidate.

[LordChronos]

There might not even be PR's in this game. You guys need to stop using that as a reason to lynch. While it's true you shouldn't try to narrow down potential PR's, using that as an actual reason to lynch someone is absurd. There's a reason you don't request a claim until you are ready to hammer. The fact that TL asked for a claim extremely early is not a reason to lynch Shotty. If anything, it's more reason to suspect TL for asking for the claim to begin with. He's played enough games to know when to request a claim.

Someone didn't vote shotty properly (Avish) and her "vote" put shotty at "L-1", which was a good enough place to ask for a claim.

No, a good enough place to ask for a claim would have been if someone was willing to hammer.

[LordChronos]

*sigh* This is exactly why I think Shotty is the priority lynch today. I don't feel confident lynching Avish at all at the moment despite Leech's pushing. Whenever someone trys to focus attention away from him he somehow figures out to make himself seem more lynchable then before. We are going to have to lynch him eventually. Nows our best oppertunity.

Why is today better than tomorrow? (D1 vs. D2)

[LordChronos]

Bah!

[LordChronos]

Great job scum.

I never would have guessed AV was scum, though I thought VV was.